AJ Jacobs | Solving the Puzzle of Living a Meaningful Life

Srini Rao

AJ, welcome to the Unmistakable Creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

AJ Jacobs

I am delighted to be here.

Srini Rao

It is my pleasure to have you here. I have known about your work, read your books, and come across you for such a long time. So when our mutual friend, Michael Shine, introduced us, I was like, hell yeah, I wanna talk to AJ. You have a new book out, The Puzzler, all of which we will talk about, but having heard the show, you know that that's not where we're gonna start. But given the nature of your work and the books that you've written, I wanted to start by asking you, what social group were you a part of in high school and what impact did that end up having on where you've ended up with your life and career?

AJ Jacobs

That's good. I always love your opening questions. So I was waiting. What's it gonna be? I would say I was a bit of a floater. I liked to go between the different clicks. So the, you know, there was the theater people, the nerds, the jocks, the druggies, and I liked to sort of dip in and out. And I think that is very telling because the...

That's what I like to do as an adult. I love almost an anthropological look at the world. I think that different groups, different tribes can contribute so much and you can take from them to make your own life better. So I guess I was a little bit of a nomad, and I think that served me well.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Um, so how did that end up shaping what you ended up doing as a writer? If I remember correctly, you said your dad was an attorney, right? Uh, no.

AJ Jacobs

Right. Yeah, my dad was a lawyer and my mom was a science teacher and they both loved learning. They were huge. I got my idea for my first book from my dad because when I was a kid, he started to read the encyclopedia Britannica from A to Z. He didn't finish. He didn't get very far. He got into the bees like Bolivia or something. So I thought maybe I should finish what he began.

But he gave me that love of learning and curiosity. And my mom was a science teacher who I think was very in it. She could have been a good entrepreneur because she really tried to engage the students on their level. So to teach them about the Big Bang, she had them make muffins with raisins in it so that when the muffin expands, like those are the galaxies, like, you know, that is a much better way. You're gonna remember that more than just someone.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

AJ Jacobs

telling you at the blackboard that galaxies expand.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Did they encourage any particular career paths? I mean, it sounds like they both had relatively stable careers. I mean, it's funny because you and I are both children of educators. And I think that we both probably share similar views on education, given the careers that we've had. But I'm curious, like, were they encouraging when you told them you were going to be a journalist and writer because you and I both know this. You're signing up for a life in which nothing is guaranteed and anything is possible.

And I don't remember, I was reading this book called why we write and I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was something like there's, you know, a million people who want to publish a book and one of those out of every million will get published. And I remember when I got my book deal with Penguin, I told my dad, because my sister's a doctor. I was like, you know, that the odds of getting a book deal are lower than they are getting into med school, right? Just for my own sort of redemption. But, uh, yeah, I'm curious, like, did your parents encourage you or discourage? Like, what did they teach you about making your way in the world?

AJ Jacobs

Hehehe

AJ Jacobs

They were encouraging overall, but also concerned. So I think they wanted me to experiment with trying to be a writer for a couple of years. And then if that didn't work out, go to law school or something respectable. And luckily, I was able to get a job early on out of college. Not a good job. It was a terrible job, because I was at a tiny, tiny newspaper of circulation 5,000 covering sewage.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

AJ Jacobs

disputes and things like that. So it wasn't my dream job, but it was a foot in and I've been able to make a living ever since. So if not, if I had been doing this for trying for a while, I think the pressure would have come down. There would have been some ultimatums, ultimata, ultimatums.

Srini Rao

Yeah, so one thing I wonder about is this sort of insatiable curiosity that you seem to have retained throughout your life just based on the way that you pick the subjects for your books. And I wonder why so many people lose that because Stephen Kotler had this quote about what, you know, are the essential skills for thriving in the 21st century in the art of impossible. He said,

Srini Rao

our school system is not designed to actually help us develop any of those skills, at least the way that probably you and I were educated, we're probably semi-closen age.

AJ Jacobs

Right. Well, first of all, I love curiosity. That and gratitude are my two favorite emotions drives. And I feel that you are a fellow curiosity addict, which is partly why I love your podcast. And you know who else was one? I interviewed once Alex Trebek, the late great Jeopardy host. And oh, you remember his quote? His quote was,

Srini Rao

Oh yeah.

Srini Rao

I remember that in the book.

AJ Jacobs

And it made no sense on the surface, but it really makes sense to me anyway, on a deep level. He said, I'm curious about everything, even those things that don't interest me. I totally love it and I totally get it. I am curious about everything. And I mean, when I'm at a dinner party, I just like to interview the guests and learn from them. And they're always gonna know something that I didn't. And

Srini Rao

Yeah, I remember that.

AJ Jacobs

And speaking of, we were speaking earlier of books that we want to write in the future, I have this idea that I'll never do because no one's gonna publish it. But like, what if I took the most boring topic, allegedly boring, like stereotyped, like I don't know what it would be. We can do a survey, accounting always gets made fun of. But I am sure if you just scratch the surface, accounting is gonna be fascinating because it's not just about stale numbers,

Srini Rao

you

AJ Jacobs

people and what they do and their motivations and their fights and their loves and their businesses.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, I know how you could make that interesting. You could interview the accountant for a cocaine cartel.

AJ Jacobs

Exactly. That was that show with Jason Beaton. Yeah. Oh, interesting.

Srini Rao

Well, there's a book called Narco Economics that this guy wrote. They talked about it in Vice News where people, it was really interesting. He said, what you don't realize is drug cartels run just like Fortune 500 corporations. Their operations are incredibly sophisticated. And so yeah, that would be a starting point. One thing I wonder is as a parent, particularly one who's had this very diverse sort of multi-hyphenate career, how has that influenced the way that your

advising your kids to make their way in the world, particularly when they're headed into a world where they're probably gonna have five jobs at the same time, and half those jobs probably don't even exist today.

AJ Jacobs

That is a great question. And it's one I think about all the time because I think, and I think you and I agree on this. When I give advice, I'm always thinking to myself, is this true? How do I know this? Does the data back this up? Or am I just parroting stuff that I heard as a kid? And so in a sense, I feel for my kids because a lot of my advice is

Well, I think there's a 70% chance that you should drop out of soccer and pursue, but I can't be sure. There's nothing certain in this world. Maybe it's a mistake. And they're like, thanks, Dan. So it's very hard. I find it very hard. But it's on the upside. I think I'm trying to train them to be okay with uncertainty and the discomfort of uncertainty and lean into it.

because the world is so uncertain and people who are certain of their beliefs are not only bad for society, I think, but they're also in the end going to be less happy and less connected to the real world. So I guess that's one meta-lesson I teach my kids is to hold your beliefs loosely and be okay with uncertainty, but try everything you can and see what works.

Srini Rao

Well, you mean that it makes a perfect segue into at, you know, talking about one of my favorite quotes from the book, which is this. You said I have one core belief. Don't be an asshole. Be kind to others. That one's written in pen. The rest of my beliefs are all in pencil. They are hypotheses waiting for updating on new evidence ready for the eraser. So I want to ask, what did you believe when you were 20 that you think is bullshit now?

AJ Jacobs

Oh, that's a good question. Give me a second to think about it, because I have changed my mind on so many things. Okay, well, I'll give you one example, is I was pretty snobby about people's intelligence levels. So for instance, if someone was a creationist, which 40%, something like 40% of America is a young earth creationist. They believe the world was created 5,000 years ago. To me, that was automatically

a litmus test. They are dumb. How could you believe that? But then one of my books was about the Bible and how much should we take literally and how much metaphorically. So I interviewed all these creationists. They are so not dumb. I mean, some of them I'm sure are just like everyone, but some of them are geniuses. And the problem though is that they have latched onto this hypothesis and they've refused.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

AJ Jacobs

to, you know, they have the motivated reasoning, whatever they see confirms, oh yes, the Earth is 5,000 years old, but they're not dumb. And they can't be convinced by berating them and giving them factual evidence. You have to use other strategies to convince people like deep listening and treating your differences like a puzzle. How can we solve this puzzle instead of a war?

which I talk about in the book, but that is one big one. I've become much less snobby about who is smart. And it's not just people who believe the same things I do. That was such a naive point of view.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Well, you know, this is what I jokingly called a prestige bias, right? You're raised in an Indian family. You start to believe that just because somebody went to some elite university that they're smart and I was like, no, I'm like, I went to Berkeley. There are a lot of people who are idiots there. And I think the funny thing is it's not only the willingness to question other people's beliefs, but your own, more so your own, I think is so important.

AJ Jacobs

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Srini Rao

like being willing to change your mind and consider the possibility that what you're saying is nonsense. And so many of us are unwilling to do that. And we have sort of unwavering convictions, I feel like. And so what was interesting was that quote just let off this flurry of thoughts that I had. And I was telling you this morning, I was writing this blog post. It's like, well, if your beliefs aren't gonna be in pencil, then why the hell are gonna be written in pencil? Why would you write a life plan in pen? And I thought about this and I'm curious like what your view is on this, because when we're young,

AJ Jacobs

Mmm.

Srini Rao

this is one of the dumbest questions I've realized that adults ask kids and that's what do you want to be when you grow up? I was like you've only lived half your life how the hell could you want to know what you want to be when you grow up? You're asking me to make you know decisions about my entire life when I've only lived a fraction of it yet that is largely how people operate when it comes to career choices. So I remember very distinctly the first two or three weeks at Berkeley I was taking a class on Warren literature was taught by a guy who

was like the editor of a New York Post, some guy named Steve Eisenberg, he just happened to be a guest lecturer that semester at Berkeley. And I was gonna be an English major. And I walked into a career fair and there was a recruiter from Anderson Consulting which eventually became Accenture. And the guys are like, oh yeah, we don't really hire English majors. That was the end of it. I never took a class again that I didn't think would help me get a job. And to this day, I've never interviewed Accenture and they probably wouldn't hire me. Yeah. And so as somebody who's had this career that's been sort of diverse, when you...

AJ Jacobs

Mmm.

Srini Rao

particularly when you're talking about young people at that point in their career, making decisions about what they wanna do with their lives. What advice do you give them? And what is your perspective on this?

AJ Jacobs

I love that question. And two thoughts occur to me. The first is, just like you said, don't write your life plan in pen. Do a lot of experimenting. There's a great book, I think he's been on your podcast, David Epstein. Yeah, so he talked in his book Range about how we should experiment with different fields when we're young. And

Srini Rao

Yep.

AJ Jacobs

Try things out, try out for a year, try out for six months. So that is one important one. I also love the advice I once saw a speech that Obama gave to the White House interns. And he said, one key he believes is don't try to, don't set your goal to become a certain position. Don't say, I wanna be Senator, I wanna be governor, I wanna be president. Instead,

Set your goals according to your principles. Say, I am really interested in climate change. So I'm gonna explore different ways that I can make the most impact. And that way you don't lose your moral compass and you'll have more of an impact and you'll be happier. So I love it. And my friend, Tim Urban also makes a very similar distinction between principles and beliefs. So, you know, principle in my case is don't be an asshole.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

AJ Jacobs

and hold that very close and deeply, but the beliefs, how do I accomplish that? How do I not be an asshole? How can I create the most good in the world? That I am very open to evidence proving me my previous beliefs wrong.

Srini Rao

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, like I said, I'm baffled by the fact that I made this life plan. I was like, OK, all I've learned is that life almost never goes according to plan. So we had to, I got to meet Steven Shapiro here who wrote a book called Goal Free Living. And he said, choose a direction, not a destination. And that always stayed with me.

AJ Jacobs

I like that. I will say, it also made me think of how I try to write my books, because I do, in one sense, have an endpoint. I want to come to a realization at the end. I know sort of the path that I want to end at, but the actual road that I take there is full of unexpected twists and turns.

So it's sort of to me a balance between improv and having a goal.

Srini Rao

Well, let's talk specifically about writing and creative careers, because one of the things that I always enjoy about talking to people like you is that your work predates the era of social media, the internet, and technology. And I feel like having access to all these tools, resources, distribution channels is kind of a double-edged sword, because on the one hand, it gives you opportunity. On the other, it's also the thing that inhibits people doing their damn work.

AJ Jacobs

Mm-hmm.

AJ Jacobs

for sure.

Srini Rao

And you predate all of this. What, as far as sort of habits and just overall craft have you noticed has changed for people who are struggling with this and in general, when it comes to this?

AJ Jacobs

Yeah, no, you're right. I don't have all the answers. I mean, I am certainly not. I wish I were better at social media than I am. And I try to take it. I don't know.

Srini Rao

But maybe you don't need to be. I mean, it's, you know, Cal Newport's argument is basically, you know, he's like, okay, does this help me accomplish, you know, my primary goals? He uses Michael Lewis as an example. I mean, you've been prolific. You've had a successful writing career. So maybe social media would actually be a deterrent to all of that.

AJ Jacobs

That is true. But I think it's a tool like everything else, so it can be used for incredible good. And there are ways, and I can talk about that, that I think it has been wonderful for me. Just to give you one example, I wrote a column for a while that I loved for Esquire Magazine called something like Crowdsourced Advice Column. And so people would ask me, how do you deal with someone on the plane who takes up the whole armrest? And I said,

Well, I have an opinion, but I don't know if it's right. Let's, let's, so I have 70,000 followers on Facebook. So I would put it out to my followers and I would get, you know, hundreds of, and I'd have to sift through all these answers to find the wisdom. But it was great. Uh, it was, it was a great way to engage with the audience and, and learn something. But I would say one thing I do, which is, uh, you know, uh, this is not going to be a revelation, but, uh,

stopping my access to the internet for 25 minutes. I put my freedom software on, which won't allow me to get to the internet. And I put that on for 25 minute chunks, and then I'll take a five minute break and look at the internet. And one thing that is crucial to me, I think, is, and I still do, I've done it all my life, and I still do it, and is to take every morning, I will,

take a break and shut everything down and just spend 15 minutes brainstorming ideas. And they could be book ideas or article ideas, but just as often they're just random ideas. You know, how to, how to, and, and by the way, most of them are terrible. 98% of them suck, but just the, the motion of generating ideas and getting that creativity muscle going, I find incredibly helpful.

So I do recommend that. And that does impact my social media because I'll come up with little ideas or jokes or thoughts that I can put on Twitter, which I think are much more valuable than a reaction Twitter. If someone tweets something that's, you know, that is meant to trigger anger in me, and then I immediately react with my own angry, that is not, I think, helping the...

Srini Rao

Yeah.

AJ Jacobs

the public discourse. Whereas if you pause and take time and think about it in advance and then post it, that's gonna be higher quality.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Well, speaking of public discourse, we had Cal Fussman here and I remember asking him about sort of the state of media today versus when he was growing up. And one of the things that he said was when he was growing up, Walter Cronkite was the source of the truth.

AJ Jacobs

Mm.

Srini Rao

And now it takes us back to the whole idea that the internet is a double-edged sword. You have all these sort of different sources of information, you know, which I personally think information overload is making us incredibly stupid. And I said, you know, I was saying, I think I said, mistaking information for knowledge is actually a deterrent to critical thinking because we get into this just endless consumption mode. Not only that, we have these very myopic

AJ Jacobs

Mm.

Srini Rao

because we end up in echo chambers. I noticed something really interesting on Medium, of all places. Because I had written so many articles about productivity, I would look into my feed and I'm like, why have I not discovered anything new or interesting? I feel like I'm literally just going through a productivity porn feed. And then when I logged out, I was like, oh, there's actually some interesting stuff here. And as somebody who has been a long time journalist, I mean, what are the implications of the way that information is

basically being distributed for our civil discourse, our society, and our well-being.

AJ Jacobs

Yeah, like we said before, it is the best of times and the worst of times. I mean, you have the best information out there, the problem is finding it. And sometimes I try to think of it in a food metaphor. Like before the Walter Cronkite era, you had a grocery store that sold, eh, okay food, but it was reliable and everyone ate it. Now you have thousands of

AJ Jacobs

And a lot of it is terrible for you, but you can also find, in addition to the mid-level grocery, you can find the highest quality food ever, like just the amazing peaches from Tahiti or whatever. So the question is finding that. And that is the big challenge. And I think the key is finding places that you can trust.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

AJ Jacobs

some devices that I use, some strategies I use to figure out whom I should trust. And one big one is what we talked about before, is to find sites that admit when they are wrong and change their mind. That is huge. I'm a big fan of this group Effective Altruism, and they have a whole section on their site, Things We Got Wrong. And it's just like a hilarious list of...

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

AJ Jacobs

stuff in the past that they... And I love that. That makes me trust them so much more than someone like Fox News, who very rarely will admit an error. Maybe never.

Srini Rao

Well, what's so fascinating about that is even on a site like YouTube, right, you can find somebody who has hundreds of millions of followers and pedal bullshit, but because the number of people who believe what they're saying is true, it actually starts to spread as truth, which is amazing to me. I think in Sapiens, the guy wrote about that, right? He said like, basically, you know, when a group of people collectively believe something that is true, then it just becomes, you know.

primarily like a universal truth, even though it might not be. It's like dollars are useful because we all, you know, universally agree that they're good for buying something. And one of my friends said, he's like, if US dollar is no longer the de facto currency by which the world, you know, measures currency, he said, then you're fucked. He said, you should run for the hills. Like Douglas Rushkoff actually did a talk with a group of billionaires. There's an article on Medium about this called The Richest where he actually, the question they asked him is, what do we do when our money becomes worthless? Yeah.

AJ Jacobs

Right.

AJ Jacobs

Mm. Ha ha.

AJ Jacobs

Interesting. And how did they react to the billionaires? Freaked out?

Srini Rao

Well, he told him he's like, take care of the people who are basically making your lives possible, like your chauffeurs, your drivers, all these people he's like, don't just build bunkers and go hide out in them, because those are the people that are going to revolt on you.

AJ Jacobs

Right. Well, that was when people talk about survivalism and also same with extending their life hundreds of years. My issue is always the people who are doing that are not people I want to hang out with. So I think I'd rather die than hang out with these annoying people who have

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

AJ Jacobs

14 year old healthy males or whatever they do.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, yeah. Alec Ross told me, he said, unfortunately, he said, we've started to build this society that's becoming increasingly individualistic. Uh, and I, this is something I said, it was like in a lot of ways we're constantly pushing self-interest to the point of diminishing returns, you see it on an individual level, you see it on an organizational level, it's like, you know, Travis at Uber is like relentless ambition until controversy erupts.

AJ Jacobs

Hmm.

AJ Jacobs

Well, I love that because in my book about living by all the rules of the Bible, that was one of my big takeaways. I stopped a lot of the activities. I stopped stoning adulterers, for instance, and I did shave my beard. So there were many things that I stopped, but a few of the takeaways included this balance between the common good and individualism. I am.

Certainly an individualist, I do think that overall, it's produced good for the world, but it goes way too far, and we have to balance the good of society with that. Because in biblical times, they were not individualists. It was all about your tribe, all about your family, and that was too much the other way.

Srini Rao

Hmm.

Srini Rao

Well, I mean, Adam Smith said in The Wealth of Nations that self-interest is the engine of prosperity. That always stayed with me. And my roommate used to say, he said any good society is driven by some level of self-interest. I think there's a grain of truth to that because if people had no self-interest, nobody would do anything. We wouldn't build companies. You and I wouldn't be having this conversation. Of course, you're here to promote a book. I'm here to basically get good content for my show and hopefully other people get value from it. But there's no question there's a level of self-interest in everything we do.

AJ Jacobs

Mm.

AJ Jacobs

Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I think capitalism has a lot of flaws and needs reforms. But overall, I remember I'm old. So I went to the Eastern block before the wall fell. And I visited Czechoslovakia, which doesn't even exist anymore. But it was hilarious because I would in the middle of the day go to a bar and there would be all these people there, engineers and garbage men. And they would say, hey, let me take you on a tour of the city. And I'd say, well, don't.

don't you have to work? And he's, I get paid either way, I don't care. So it didn't seem like a flawless system and it did end up collapsing, thank God.

Srini Rao

Hahaha!

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, speaking of things that collapse and, you know, get put back together, let's talk about the book. What in the world prompted you to write a book about puzzles of all things?

AJ Jacobs

Hmm. Love it.

AJ Jacobs

Well, I have always been a huge puzzle fan. So as a kid, I did puzzles. I love making pencil mazes. So I would make these elaborate mazes the size of my living room floor. And I think it informed my worldview because I think I see the world as a series of puzzles and it makes it more fun, makes it more challenging. And I think my previous books have been puzzles in disguise. Like...

The Year of Living Biblically was about the puzzle of religion. I wrote one about thanking a thousand people for my coffee, and that was the puzzle of how do you be grateful in a world where it's very hard to be grateful? And so when I was trying to figure out a new book, I thought, well, maybe I should stop with the metaphorical puzzles and actually dive into my passion for puzzles and try to figure out why do I love, why do millions of people love them?

And what can they teach us? How can they, can they teach us to be better thinkers and better people and solve, can the little puzzles help solve the big puzzles? And I do believe that they definitely can.

Srini Rao

It's funny you say that because I just brought up a memory from a conversation I had with Jim quick. And he said that he had Quincy Jones in the audience at one of his events. And he was like, how do you deal with your problems? And he said, I don't have problems, just puzzles. It was like 80 years old. You got no problems. And that's what Quincy Jones's reply was. I'll send you the clip. It's in our interview with Jim quick. Yeah.

AJ Jacobs

Mmm. No way.

AJ Jacobs

fantastic. He just summed up my book. I love regular puzzles. I love crosswords that I write about. The book is a lot about my adventures with these hilarious, wonderfully eccentric subcultures like the jigsaw puzzle subculture. But part of it is about reframing your life as puzzles.

Srini Rao

Yeah, we'll talk about that. Those are amazing.

Srini Rao

One of the things you say in the opening of the book is that puzzles vary wildly in format, but almost all seem to share this. They cause the solver to experience a period of difficulty and struggle, followed by relief. They provide an aha moment, tension leading to an almost well orgasmic ending. And it's funny because I remember reading the sections of the Rubik's Cube and I remember I also read Erno Rubik's book and

AJ Jacobs

Oh, great.

Srini Rao

After reading that book, I was adamant that I would not go look at a YouTube video to figure out how to solve this, because he said that defeats the entire purpose. He said the goal here is not to solve it. It's to think. And to this day, I can't solve a fucking Rubik's Cube. It pisses me off. Like I've managed to get like two sides and just like, OK, I don't want to find the algorithm. And it's funny because we have, you know, my brother in law is a nephew who can solve a Rubik's Cube in like two minutes. He'll just sit there doing video. And you're just like, I hate this kid. But

AJ Jacobs

Hmm right

AJ Jacobs

That's interesting.

Srini Rao

A lot of people, the reason I brought that up was because I think that struggle and difficulty is the place that stops most people, not just in puzzles, but in pretty much anything in life. And what it took me a long time to realize is that struggle, difficulty and frustration are actually signs of progress in disguise.

AJ Jacobs

Yes, I love that. Well, there are two things that occur. First of all, don't get too discouraged because Erno Rubik, the inventor of the Rubik's Cube, as you know, took him one month, basically full time, to solve the Rubik's Cube. So, you know, you might have to quit podcasting, but you can do it. The second thing is also, I'm not gonna give you, my only big hint is maybe it's not.

Srini Rao

Hahaha!

AJ Jacobs

that you solve one side than another side. Maybe, forgive the pun, but you have to think outside the box and maybe you don't solve it side by side. But anyway, oh, now I've forgotten the, oh, frustration. Yes, part of what I tried to do in this book is to lean into the idea of being confused, frustrated, not.

Srini Rao

Hmm, okay.

AJ Jacobs

uncertain about things and try to enjoy that because that is a lot of life. And yes, we love the, as I say, orgasmic ending when you have that aha moment, but try to enjoy the process of solving a puzzle. And I've gotten much better at that. So if I am struggling with a puzzle, I don't get angry. I just try to get engaged.

And there have been a lot of people who inspire me. One of the chapters I devote to, one of the great unsolved puzzles of the world, is a puzzle at the CIA headquarters. It's called Kryptos, and it's a huge metal sculpture with hundreds of letters carved into it. And it's a secret code. And people have solved some of the code, but not all of it, not even the CIA. And the...

Srini Rao

Yeah.

AJ Jacobs

The great thing is the sculpture's been there for 32 years and people are still doing it. After 32 years, I'm on a message board where every day I get messages, oh, I think this could be related to Moby Dick. This could be the wind talkers from the Native Americans. They've got endlessly creative theories, but no one has cracked it fully, and yet they're still going. So when I'm helping my kid,

with homework, a math problem, and I want to give up, after two minutes, I say, these cryptos guys have been going for 30 years. I can give it another five minutes.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, it's funny because even puzzles games, like all of these things I feel like have been lost as part of the internet. And you talk about the fact that play is such an important part of our wellbeing. Um, I remember very distinctly, like, I think it was about probably sometime in the middle of the pandemic, my sister and my brother-in-law were going home and my parents started playing board games with, uh, you know, my sister and my brother-in-law.

Turns out my dad is really good at Scrabble and my sister was like, Oh, you'll be great at this. She's like, you read so much. You have an extensive vocabulary. I've yet to beat the man at Scrabble. I mean, he's undefeated. He's like the undisputed champion and he's a college professor who doesn't read. Yeah.

AJ Jacobs

Oh, interesting. Well, first of all, a friend of mine wrote a very good book that just came out about play, in case you wanna have her on Katherine Price and the importance of play.

Srini Rao

Yes. Oh, I, you know what? I think I've seen that book.

AJ Jacobs

Yeah, I'm a fan. So anyway, I just throw that out. But well, it's, I guess a couple of points. One, yeah, I am a big fan of play and board games. Because I think they do. They teach you how to think they teach you how to think in new ways. And you bring up the scramble example is very interesting. Because one of the lessons I learned in puzzle is

Srini Rao

Yeah.

AJ Jacobs

Don't just think that your first instinct is the correct one. So my first instinct when I think about Scrabble is, okay, yeah, someone who has a huge, like, you know, who's totally literate and reads all the time, they're gonna be the best. But you know what? The person who memorizes the 50 or 62-letter words that are legal in Scrabble, like ZA for pizza, that...

Srini Rao

Ha ha ha!

AJ Jacobs

is so much more valuable than having read Moby Dick or Dante's Inferno. So you've got to step back and say what strategies and what situations are useful, and it's not always the ones that you think.

Srini Rao

So I learned from my dad when I played the first time I was winning for like three or four turns. I was like, I got this. There's no way you're going to beat me. He was like, oh, yeah, he's like, don't get so cocky. He was like, we just started playing and, you know, he got like one word with like three letters in it, got 100 points. And that was the end of it. And I to this day not beat him. I and you know, it's like the ongoing joke in my family. Let's let's talk about a couple of specific calls. I know you went through.

all sorts of different types of puzzles ranging from anagrams to jigsaws. But I want to hit a few of them in particular that just I thought were hilarious. Well, let's talk about the jigsaw puzzle, because that whole story about the jigsaw competition just blew my mind. It was like, OK, that's I've got to I knew there, you know, tribes for all sorts of weird things, but you've got to share this story with us.

AJ Jacobs

Yeah, that was one of my favorite adventures. And it was weird because jigsaws originally were one of my least favorite genres. I was a little bit snobby. I thought that they didn't take much subtlety or skill. I was totally wrong. I totally got schooled on that. Because first, there are incredibly difficult jigsaw puzzles that will blow your mind. But second, even your regular ones that, you know, of the...

of a cat hanging from a tree or whatever. Those, if you do them at the highest level, can take incredible ingenuity and skill. But anyway, I wasn't into jigsaw puzzles. I started researching them. I ran across on the fifth page of Google the World Jigsaw Puzzle Championship coming up in two months in Spain. And I look at the contenders and there are 40 countries, Mexico, Thailand, Uganda.

but no USA. So I'm like, well, maybe I should try. So I fill out the form, figuring this is the first step in a rigorous process. No, I get an email the next day, you are Team USA, show up in Spain in two months. So I'm a little freaked out. It's a four person event. So you get four people and you have eight hours to solve four big jigsaw puzzles.

Srini Rao

Hahaha!

AJ Jacobs

So I didn't look very far. I just went to my wife and sons and say, you wanna do your patriotic duty and be Team USA? So, and they said, yes, if we don't have to wear a uniform, like don't make us wear a jigsaw uniform. And in the end, I did make them wear, I'm sorry. I couldn't help it. If you're representing USA, you need a t-shirt with a jigsaw and an American flag on it, I'm sorry.

Srini Rao

Right.

Srini Rao

I know, I remember that.

AJ Jacobs

So they were very nice to put that on, but it was fascinating. I went there and there are these people, little Bron James's of Jigsaws, and they were so fast. I mean, we finished in the eight hours, we finished one full puzzle and about a third of another, the Russian team from these four women from Siberia, they were, they finished in like three and a half hours and they were a lot of, you know, are they doping? Maybe they were.

Srini Rao

I remember this like, yeah.

Srini Rao

I remember that.

AJ Jacobs

And this was actually before the Ukrainian invasion. So, but I say in the book, I'm proud to say, I say I hate Putin because I hated him before for many of his policies. But I said, you know, meeting people face to face is very important for humanity. And, you know, I call it jigsaw diplomacy. So, it was, these women were lovely and I'm hopeful that they...

have not been brainwashed by Putin, but I haven't talked to them. But anyway, it was wonderful. And I'm in the middle of, I'm not sure where I'm going to publish it, but I'm going to do something like five life lessons I learned from jigsaws, because there really are tons of life lessons. And one of them, what I learned, I think it was from the Russians, which

AJ Jacobs

blue. Like you're faced with that sky and you want to give up. But most skies in puzzles are not all one color. You know, they get darker or lighter. Oh, I am sorry. I don't know why I didn't put that on. All right. Yeah, most skies in jigsaw puzzles are not a monochromatic blue. They get darker and

Srini Rao

course.

AJ Jacobs

is in the subtleties. Life is full of nuances and grays. And that I thought was a nice lesson. But we did, oh, by the way, just to wrap it up, we were humiliated. I am sorry to my fellow Americans. We didn't come in last. We did come in second to last. But we did be one of the, I think it was Portugal. I have to look it up. But yeah.

Srini Rao

Well, I...

Srini Rao

Okay. Yeah, I very distinctly remember the way you described the Russians. It sounded like they were just hardcore and they're like, what are you going to do with your prize money? And they said they're going to use it to go to another puzzle competition.

AJ Jacobs

Oh yeah, no champagne, no vodka. They are right back into it. They are hardcore. And yeah, I guess, you know, when you're at the top of any game, you have to be dedicated, but it was, uh, I loved it. I loved it. I, uh, and I want to go back actually. It was canceled the last couple of years.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Let's talk about the labyrinth because I that was another part that made me laugh out loud. Like you talk to this guy who is a farmer who owns a labyrinth and basically says people leave your crying and relationships end and you're like this sounds perfect. This is exactly what I'm looking for.

AJ Jacobs

Yeah, this guy was great. He owns a maze called the Great Vermont Corn Maze that is probably the hardest corn maze in America. And as you say, he is just gleeful in telling me all like people leave in tears. One father got so frustrated, he left his family, his wife and kids in the maze and drove off in a car and you know, couples break up and it's hilarious. And he wouldn't.

I said, I'm going to bring my son. He's like, oh no, is he a teenager? It's too hard for teenagers. They get too angry. So I had to do it alone. And it was hard. I mean, I went through some emotions like there was frustration and false hope and glee and optimism and questioning what am I doing. But in the end, it was a lovely experience. And I loved talking to the owner.

who stood up on a platform on top of it. I mean, it's a huge maze, but he would just observe the people like a god and laugh at their folly. And he said, one of the big problems is something we've talked about, the lack of cognitive flexibility, that these people would just go down one dead end and they'd be like, well, I was sure that this was the way, so then they'll go back and then.

Two minutes later, they're doing the same thing, banging their head against this one corner. He said it especially happens in young men. So there you go.

Srini Rao

Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, it's funny you say that because I was talking about. Yeah, I think it was, you know, about this ability to be self aware that you might be wrong. And I said any woman who has been in a relationship prior to the existence of a GPS has been on a date or have been with a significant other who refuses to stop and ask for directions. Only guys do that. Yeah, it's just literally like I saw my dad do it. And I'm pretty sure I did it more than once. But women like I'm just going to stop at the gas station and ask for directions.

AJ Jacobs

Hehehehehehe

Srini Rao

because this guy clearly knows where we're supposed to go.

AJ Jacobs

Right, that is interesting. Yeah, I know, I was the same way. I mean, this is for GPS, but I think we have to, yeah, sort of re, we have to change our morality a bit and say, you know, it's good to ask directions. Like, you know, well, it's tricky because sometimes people give terrible directions, but it is good to be humble and say, you know what? I don't know for sure. Let me figure out the best way there.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, there's, there's a quote about labyrinths that really struck me. You said that labyrinths offer zero choices. You follow a single winding path from start to finish. Their purpose isn't to entertain. It's to enlighten. According to labyrinth fans, walking on labyrinth can be a profound experience, a meditative and healing experience. Sometimes even a life altering experience akin to St. Paul's road to Damascus or Steve jobs acid trip. Why, why is that? Like, why do people say that about labyrinths?

AJ Jacobs

Yes, well this was fascinating because I did not know there's a distinction between mazes and labyrinths and it's a big one. Some of the labyrinth people do not like mazes. One guy told me labyrinths were invented by God to heal the damage done by mazes. According to them, the difference is a maze.

is a puzzle. You have to turn left or right and you get lost and you figure it out. A labyrinth is more like a spiral, so sort of those ancient symbols. And you walk in and you get to the center and you circle around and then you walk out. There's only one path. And I think they are both sort of representative of two important parts of life. I do love puzzles, but I also acknowledge the freedom of choice and having strong architecture can be a very important part of life.

And labyrinths have this crazy large fan base that I didn't know about who basically see them as a way to meditate while walking or even pray. There's some Christians who are very into labyrinths. So I thought it was fascinating. I've walked a few labyrinths for the book.

And it didn't blow my mind. Like I wasn't, you know, it wasn't like an acid trip. It was more like a nice glass of white wine. It was relaxing. You know, you were very present. You felt the grass under your feet and the wind in your face. So it was very nice and a good exercise in sort of walking meditation. But for some people, it's like life changing.

Srini Rao

Well, there's another quote that made me laugh and I thought was really fascinating. You said, this was about anger. You said that anger is counterproductive to puzzle solving and to problem solving in general. This is not just me talking. This is current wisdom in psychology. And then you mentioned this mantra. You say, don't get furious, get curious. It's a hard mantra to employ. Kids often act like little psychopaths whose only job is to infuriate us. But I think it's a deep insight and not just in parenting. Why not?

AJ Jacobs

I'm gonna go.

Srini Rao

try to approach all of life's problems, societal problems with the same idea from politics as health to romance or friendship. And yet anybody can read that and tomorrow people in Congress are gonna be bickering like idiots.

AJ Jacobs

Yeah, well, I mean, as I say, it is a hard mantra, but I think it's worth it. And of course, I've not eliminated anger. I still get furious. But every time I do, I try to remember to be curious. And as I said, you know, if I'm talking to someone from the opposite side of the political spectrum, seeing it as a puzzle is much more likely to produce something productive. And it's, it's also more fun.

if you see it as sort of this cooperative adventure. You know, why? And asking the big puzzle is why do we believe what we believe? And that is a good path out of anger because yeah, immediately I'll get angry after reading something in the news and then say, why am I so angry? What has made me have this value and is this value a good value?

So I love it and it's made my life better. And I do think another guest that I can't remember whether you've had him on the podcast, but he's got another good book that you might wanna look at, David McCraney. I just blurred the book. Well, the book's not out yet, but it will be soon. It's called, How Minds Change.

Srini Rao

Why haven't?

Srini Rao

Oh, you should definitely introduce them. That already sounds like something I want to talk to.

AJ Jacobs

Okay, I'm going to do, yeah, after this I'll do an email. Yeah, so he talks about that anger and yelling at each other never changes people's minds. It has to be this cooperative process of curiosity and exploring and trying to find why, what do we believe and what can change our minds? What...

What evidence? You have to be open to evidence that will change your mind.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Speaking of which, there's one final quote that I want to reference here. You said that it's been my experience that puzzles can shift our worldview. They can nudge us to adopt the puzzle mindset, a mindset of ceaseless curiosity about everything in the world, from politics to science to human relationships, and a desire to find solutions. Puzzles can teach us lessons about a fresh perspective, compassion, and cooperation. If we see the world as a series of puzzles instead of a series of battles, we'll come up with better solutions. And we need solutions more than ever. So.

As a byproduct of writing this book and exploring all these different types of puzzles, what shifted in your worldview?

AJ Jacobs

Well, I definitely do try to see everything as a puzzle and not just externally, but I try to, you know, the puzzle of myself, what will make me happy, what will make me productive and treat that as a puzzle and try, you know, puzzles are all about trial and error. I know this is the unmistakable creative and I know you're a fan of mistakes.

So yeah, mistakes are huge and being open to making mistakes and trying different strategies and seeing what works like you would in a puzzle. And I'm constantly coming up with new strategies. I just started one two and a half weeks ago that I'm still doing because I'm still finding it very effective. It's a weird one, but I am talking to myself a lot more. I am.

whenever instead of thinking in my head, I'm trying to vocalize it, even when I'm alone or walking down the street. And I can pretend that I'm on Bluetooth, but really I'm just babbling to myself. And I find it extremely effective because it makes me more aware of my thoughts, especially when my thoughts go astray and I start thinking, oh, I'm a failure or this person rejected me, this is the end of the world.

If I hear myself say that out loud, then it sort of jolts me. I'm like, wait a sec. That's crazy. You know, get a hold of yourself. That is, that is not a true belief. So, uh, as I say, always experimenting, always, uh, trying to solve puzzles, uh, whether it's the outside world or your mind.

Srini Rao

Yeah. I think there was one other quote in particular that, um, somebody had said this to you that everything in life is a puzzle, who you should marry. That's a puzzle, what job you should take. That's a puzzle. And with those puzzles, it's hard to know if you got the best answer. Uh, and that was in reference to crosswords, but that really stayed with me. I thought to myself, yeah, that is so true. How can you possibly know? I, in my life, I realized that everything in life is a giant experiment with no right answers.

AJ Jacobs

I love that. Yeah, and you can never know for sure. And another friend of mine, Spencer Greenberg, great thinker, he said similarly, you have some people who say, when confronted with a problem, well, there's no answer, this is impossible. Others say, this is the answer, this is the solution, and there's no other answer, I'm totally right. The better thinkers say, all right, here are five,

solutions. None of them are perfect, but one of them is probably more optimal than the other, and the puzzle is figuring out not only what the solutions are, but which is the best.

Srini Rao

Yeah, absolutely. Wow, I feel like I could sit here and talk to you all day about this, just because you have so much knowledge and experience and data points that we could just dig into. There's a couple of things that I wanted to allow you to mention to the audience. I know you said that there was some sort of $10,000 prize that people could win and some puzzle that they could solve. I'm sure anybody listening would be happy to have an extra 10 grand.

AJ Jacobs

I am ready.

AJ Jacobs

Oh yeah, no, I am so excited about this. And I can say this, because I didn't have, I didn't create it, I came up with the idea, but these other brilliant puzzle makers designed it. And it is a contest. If you go to thepuzzlerbook.com, there will be a link and it is a contest. And what happens is, in the introduction to the book, there is a secret code, a passphrase. And you can get the introduction.

online for free at that website. So no purchase, even if you don't wanna buy the book, you can enter the contest. You put the passphrase in and on May 3rd, it will start this wild month long puzzle adventure where every day you get this crazy, brilliant new puzzle that'll blow your mind. And if you get through all of the puzzles in May of 2022, if people are listening in the future,

Then you enter a final round and the final round is a race. Whoever wins the final round gets the $10,000. But I've tried some of these puzzles and some are mind-blowingly hard. Some I can figure out. But I think you'll have a blast whether or not you'll get the, it's like free entertainment. So whether or not you get the 10,000, I highly recommend it. So thank you to Greg Pliska and his team who were the ones who

created the puzzler hunt.

Srini Rao )

Awesome. Well, I have one final question for you, which I know you've heard me ask. And that's how we finish all our interviews at the Unmistakable Creative. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

AJ Jacobs

Uh, yeah. And I do love the question. Um, and, and I thought about this and I had a great idea yesterday. Then I forgot it. Then I think that I came up with the same one, but I may be calling you back and say, wait, I just remember, but I think it's what we talked about. It's cognitive flexibility. It's the idea that great people are open to new thoughts, new ways of

Srini Rao

Mm.

AJ Jacobs

trying things. And my first book that we mentioned was reading the Encyclopedia. And I always remember this one story in there that always makes me laugh, because it was one of the first pivots that I've ever encountered in business, you know, that old word, the pivot, because it was the Welch, Thomas Welch. He was a religious man in the 1920s. And he

created grape juice and he decided that he would sell it to church. He was very much an alcoholic. He didn't want alcohol. He was a prohibitionist. So he would sell it to churches as alcohol-free communion wine. He maybe made a dollar or something, but no, it wasn't catching on. So he and his son noticed that kids were drinking it. They loved it.

So they totally changed their marketing and it's now a treat for kids, it's terrible for you. So, but. Exactly, well, it's just great. And you know, they made millions and millions of dollars, but it was only because they weren't attached to that one idea that non-alcoholic communion wine is their path to riches. So to me, that's the sign of creativity in business.

Srini Rao

I remember when you said that, I was like, wait a minute. Welch's grape juice. I remember that.

AJ Jacobs

and in art always be evolved. Well, one of my favorite singers is David Bowie because he evolved so much. And the Beatles were great at evolving. They changed so much.

Srini Rao

It's funny because we opened my second book audience one with the story of David Bowie. Yes. Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story, your wisdom and your insights with our listeners. This has been hilarious, thought-provoking, insightful. Where can people find out more about you, the new book, your work and everything that you're up to?

AJ Jacobs

Really? Oh, I gotta read that.

AJ Jacobs

Yeah, please do. I'm at AJ Jacobs dot com. It's my website at AJ Jacobs at Twitter. And remember if you want to join the contest, the puzzler book dot com. So yeah, I hope to see you there. And thank you, Srini Rao. I love your show and I'm honored to be a guest.

Srini Rao

Thank you very much. And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.