Alan Stein Jr. | Unlocking the Secrets of High Performance: Insights from NBA Player Coach

Srini

Alan, welcome to the Unmistakable Creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Alan Stein, Jr.

Oh, my pleasure, man. This is gonna be a fun conversation.

Srini

Yeah, I heard about you by way of your publicist. And when I saw the words Kobe Bryant and Kevin Durant, I was like, okay, that's all I need to know. I'm like, I definitely want to talk to this guy. But before we get into your work, I want to start asking, what is one of the most important things that you learned from one or both of your parents that have influenced and shaped who you've become and what you've ended up doing with your life?

Alan Stein, Jr.

Both of my parents were elementary educators. My mom was a first grade teacher for 30 years. My dad started as a teacher and then went into administration and became a principal. And the number one lesson I learned from both of them, it's kind of a part one and a part two. One is to be of service to others. It's to pour into others, light other people's candles and try and help other people, which certainly that's what teaching is all about. And the second is enjoy what you do.

You know, have a passion for what you do, have a fascination and a curiosity for what you do. And those are two lessons that, you know, were modeled for me very early. And I've tried to emulate throughout my life and my career.

Srini

Your parents being teachers, what was the narrative about the importance and value of education? Because you grew up in an Indian family, you're hammered with the importance of education from the time you're old enough to understand that you get grades.

Alan Stein, Jr.

What was very similar in my household, I mean, that was just the expectation that education would be at the forefront and would be important. But in all honesty, I never really loved school. There were a handful of subjects that I was naturally drawn to and certainly had some teachers that I was drawn to, but I never actually loved the academic part of school. I enjoyed the social part and certainly enjoyed the athletic part. But my parents made it clear as well that education is not

just what you learn in school, that you need to have a thirst for learning and a quest for learning outside of the walls of school, and that you should be reading and watching and listening to things that fascinate you above and beyond whatever is required in school. So I've probably done more learning since I've graduated college than I did in elementary school, middle school, high school, and college because that seed was planted very early.

Srini

I can relate I would say that like I've gotten it probably three degrees worth of knowledge from this podcast versus You know college at Berkeley and high school and an MBA like I think what I've learned from this podcast With a thousand interviews is far more valuable But one thing I wonder that thirst for knowledge that desire to learn I feel like school is one of the places that kills it. Yeah, like I'll give you an example there are a lot of people who

think that they don't enjoy reading. And that's primarily because they never had a choice in what they read. All they did was read the stuff that they were forced to read in school. So I know you alluded to having kids, like how do you sustain that thirst for knowledge and that intrinsic desire to learn in your kids knowing what you do from having had parents who are educators?

Alan Stein, Jr.

such an insightful direction to go. And you pretty much just described me to a T. I could not stand reading when it was assigned throughout school. And then when I graduated from college and I realized those constraints had been lifted and I could read anything that interests me, I became a voracious reader. I mean, my first couple of years out of college, I made the goal of reading 50 books a year, which for someone who couldn't even stand reading one or two assigned books per year, you know, that was a pretty hefty load,

That was really what sparked my personal interest in the, I guess we'll call it self-development space. And I mean, I was just devouring books on leadership, on personal development and so forth. And that's really what I try and share with my own children. For context, I have 13 year old twin sons who are in eighth grade, an 11 year old daughter in sixth grade. And I let them know, I always believe in being very honest with my children. And I let them know, hey, when I was your age, I did not love...

reading what was assigned. However, I still did it because that was the required work. And I encouraged my children to do the same, but I told them that they don't have to be limited to by what's being assigned in school, that they have the freedom to, in this case, read, watch, and listen, because they're growing up in the internet age, to anything they want, and anything that they're curious about or fascinated by, there's something out there, there'll be resources out there, and I highly encourage them to check those out. But...

more important than anything that I ever tell my children. And this is really the foundation of my parenting philosophy. I model these things for my children. Like my children see me reading, my children see me asking questions and being curious and watching documentaries and listening to amazing podcasts like this one. So I wanna make sure that my children know that I'm doing all of this by choice now. No one makes me read or do anything. I'm self-employed. I do these things.

because I want to grow and I want to develop and I want to evolve. So I model that and then I encourage and support them to do the same.

Srini

Speaking of children, there's something in the book that caught my attention that I highlighted. You said that teaching children the importance of competing is why I don't let my kids win at anything. No, I'm not an egomaniac. I do this to teach them about life. By definition, it's not an accomplishment unless it's earned. I want my kids to earn everything in their lives. So one, I want to hear what has shaped that philosophy, but the other thing I wonder, and I've asked a couple of different people this, people like Dan Pink, people like Dan Coyle, I know you've referenced some of their books, like

These guys are a wealth of knowledge about all things human performance. Like they understand what makes people excel and given the types of clients that you work with, so do you, I'm assuming. So how much of that translates into your parenting and also how do you balance that out with letting them be themselves and you know, you being a dad as much as you are the guy who coaches these elite athletes.

And also, like, this is something I always wonder like, when you know, I talked to people who are psychologists or therapists, who have kids like, are you immune to all the bullshit that other parents deal with, particularly with teenagers?

Alan Stein, Jr.

Oh man, there's so much great stuff to unpack there. Parenting is so interesting because it's incredibly unique to each and every parent, and it's unique to each and every child. I mean, I just mentioned I have twin sons, and yet I often parent Luke and Jack slightly differently because they have different needs. And I believe in that personalization. One of the reasons that I'm so passionate about the work that I do is these principles that...

Srini

Yeah.

Alan Stein, Jr.

that I learned through the game of basketball and now teach to folks in business have such high utility that they directly apply to parenting as well. I mean, most of the stuff that I share on stage or on page is the exact same stuff that I share with my children and I talk to my children incessantly about and that I model for my children as well. And, you know, this concept of I want them to earn everything is kind of this anti entitlement.

that I see somewhat rampant throughout the country. I mean, my children, you know, they're gonna have all of their basic needs taken care of. And first and foremost, I wanna make sure that they have immense gratitude for that because there are a lot of people that are less fortunate and don't even have their basic needs taken care of. But outside of that, I want my children to earn everything. I want them to earn every grade in school. I want them to earn every spot on the team. I want them to earn every dollar.

You know, and certainly I'll do some nice things for my kids and I do buy them some things. I mean, I don't wanna make it sound like, you know, I'm running a dictatorship, but I want them to understand the value of those things. And to me, the foundation of that comes down to the willingness to do the work, the willingness to put in the reps during the unseen hours and a thirst for competition, you know, and those are the things that...

that we talk about regularly, but I also make sure that my children know that I'm not living vicariously through them. I very much want them to carve their own path and blaze their own path and figure out what it is that they love to do and what they want to pursue. And whether that's something in athletics or academics or the arts, doesn't matter to me. But the cool thing is these principles that I share and model with them all of the time, it'll apply to anything that they choose to do.

And same thing with competition. And what I find interesting with competition is when most people hear that word, they think of competing against someone else. I'm gonna play against you in something. And that is a form of competition. But the main part of competition that I try to instill with my children is to compete with themselves and to be better than they were yesterday and to constantly strive for growth and development and improvement.

Alan Stein, Jr.

And ultimately that type of internal competition of seeing how close you can get the person you are to the person you're trying to become, that's the most important competition because it transcends all boundaries.

Srini

Yeah. Well, you know, one of the things that I wonder, it makes me think of probably one of my favorite books from this year, which was written by one of our recent guests called that Never Enough When Achievement Culture Becomes Toxic, which is largely about how kids today feel so much that they have these impossible standards to live up to. And, you know, we've seen the byproduct of that in the college admissions scandal.

and all these other things. And one of the things that struck me when I spoke with Jennifer, she said that, you know, for all their advantages, many of these high performing students I met described themselves as anxious, depressed, and lonely. And she writes this entire book, which I think is, to me, the most important book of this year, and every parent should be reading this book. And the thing is that, like, I'm thinking about you as this guy who coaches, you know, these really, like, elite athletes, all of which we'll get into, and then...

being able to translate this knowledge and passing it on to your kids. But how do you do that without letting them have this sense or eventually develop this sense that what they achieve, what they accomplish is never going to be enough. And like, do you get pushback from them when they say, stop being a coach and just be my dad?

Alan Stein, Jr.

Oh, I absolutely get that pushback, especially with my sons now just entering being teenagers. And my kids have seen me speak on stage. They've all actually read my first book, Raise Your Game. So they're very well aware of those principles. For me as a father, the most important part that I wanna make sure my children always know and is unwavering, unmistakable if you will, is that I love them unconditionally and that my only hope for them.

is that they grow up to be happy, fulfilled contributors to this world, have healthy relationships, they're physically and mentally and emotionally fit. That's all that I want for my kids. And as part of that process, that's the life that I try and live myself. So again, I want to be modeling all of these things for them and healthy competition is a big part of that. And I want my children to know that

They have the freedom to choose and explore things that interest them, that they're fascinated by. But then when they choose to pursue something, I want them to give it the best effort that they're capable of and have the best attitude. Right now, all three of my children play youth basketball and they've played a variety of different sports and done a variety of different activities, but at present, they're all kind of focused on basketball. And my kids know that for playing basketball, I really only have four rules for them.

And as long as they're doing these things, then their mother and I will continue to support them, drive them wherever they need to be, make sure they get to their practices and games and so forth. And the first is give the best effort you're capable of as consistently as you can. I want my children to know, especially when you're playing a team sport, you have other people counting on you and you've made an unwritten agreement to give your best effort to make a maximum contribution to the team. The second is,

I want them to stay coachable. I want them to be open to learning from their teachers, their coaches, their trainers. Certainly I want them to be open to learning from me, but I want them to be just coachable human beings. And that takes a humility. The next thing is I want them to be great teammates. I wanna make sure my children know that, hey, this ain't all about you. This is about the team. Once again, when you choose to be a part of a team, you have to sacrifice some of the me for the we.

Alan Stein, Jr.

And then the fourth is I want them to have fun. Time is so precious and whatever we choose to devote our time to, I believe we should enjoy or have some type of passion for. So as long as my kids do those four things, give a great effort, stay open-minded to being coached, are great teammates and have fun, to me then it's a worthy endeavor for whatever it is that they wanna do. And really those are the only four things we talk about. But back to your original point about achievement,

is, and I know this is probably counter to what a lot of other parents do, but I'm not big on rewarding outcomes. I'm much more of a process guy. Like I'm not really concerned with what my kids' grades are or how many minutes they play or points they score in their teams. I'm much more interested in the process. Are you doing your homework? Are you showing up to school and ready to be focused and attentive to learn? Are you studying for your tests? Are you doing...

all of the things during the unseen hours to put yourself in a position to be successful, you know, in that case in the classroom, but same thing, you know, on the court or on the field. I want to reward the process. And I've tried to share with my children that when you can learn to love the process, when you can learn to love the work, then you've already won. It doesn't matter what the outcome is. You know, a perfect example would be this show.

You know, I know how much work you put in and have put into this show and the due diligence and heavy lifting you do behind the scenes during the unseen hours to have some of these conversations with some of the most amazing guests that you've had. I know it would be your preference to have, you know, lots of people listen and for people to tune in, but if you actually just love the process and love the conversations and love the learning, then it's almost irrelevant how many people choose to listen.

because you've already won in advance. And to me, that's what the process is all about. And that's one of the main principles that I teach and model for my children.

Srini

Yeah, I think that's so true in virtually every area of your life. Like I've always told people, if you measure your progress based on outcomes, you're going to lose your motivation. Whereas if you measure it based on things that you can control, largely the process, you can actually sustain your motivation. Uh, but let's actually get into your own career. I mean, you started out playing high school basketball from what I remember. So talk to me about the trajectory of going from high school basketball to

Alan Stein, Jr.

Yes.

Srini

getting to work with some of the most elite athletes in the NBA.

Alan Stein, Jr.

So basketball was my first love. And I fell in love with the game at five years old when my parents signed me up for my first recreation basketball team in kindergarten. And I'm proud and grateful to say that here four decades plus later, basketball is still a really important pillar of my life. And I say that with pride and gratefulness because I'm thankful that I've been able to build an extraordinary life and make an extraordinary living doing something that I've been passionate about. And you know, the first...

of my life was as a very dedicated basketball player. I was able to play up through college. I played it, it was Elon college at the time. It's now Elon University down in Burlington, North Carolina. And while I was at Elon, I started to develop an equal love for the training side of basketball, for strength and conditioning and fitness and nutrition and mindset.

So when I graduated from Elon in the late 90s, and it was clear to me that I did not have what it would take to play the game professionally, I figured what could be better than combining my original love of the sport of basketball with this new found love of basketball performance training and strength and conditioning. So I decided to become a basketball performance coach. And I chose to do that and focus primarily at the youth and high school level, because that's where I felt I could make a much bigger impact.

on the athletes that I was working with. Now, I was very fortunate that here in the Washington DC area, which is where I grew up and moved back to post college, is one of the hotbeds for youth in high school basketball in the entire country. So we have some really good players and programs and coaches here. And I was able to work as the strength coach at two very renowned programs. One of which is where Kevin Durant graduated from, who's the most notable of the high school kids I had a chance to work with.

And then I also worked at another school that's put over a dozen players currently in the NBA. So I had an opportunity to work with and get a behind the scenes look at what it would take for a young person to climb that proverbial mountain and make their dream of playing in the NBA come true. And, you know, started working with Kevin Durant when he was 15 years old and got to see everything that went in, you know, to his ascension to playing in the NBA. Doing that actually put me on the radar with Nike.

Alan Stein, Jr.

in Jordan Brand and USA Basketball. And then I got to work some events for them. Most notably was the Nike Summer Skills Academies where they built camps around their signature players at the time. And this was in the mid 2000s. So I got an opportunity to work events with Kobe Bryant and Steph Curry and Steve Nash and LeBron James. And I got to see another peak behind the curtain but this was with players that had already reached that pinnacle. And I was able to see and observe

what they did to sustain and maintain a high level of output and excellence throughout their career. You know, it's one thing to make it to the NBA, it's another beast to stay there. So I'm very thankful that my journey kind of allowed me to see both what it takes to reach that and then what it takes to stay there. And I've always been very observant by nature. So, you know, I was soaking it all in and learning as many of the rituals and disciplines and routines.

you know, in strategies and approaches and perspectives that I could. And then in 2017, I decided to leave the basketball training space entirely and take all of those lessons that I'd learned and aim them at the business world. And that's the current iteration I'm in now is I teach businesses and brands and organizations how to utilize the same principles and mindsets and routines as elite level athletes. But it's all done through the lens of a former basketball performance coach who learned most of these lessons, you know, on the court.

and in the weight room with some elite level players.

Srini

Yeah. Well, I think that makes a perfect segue into this first part of the book, because you start out by talking about Kevin Durant when he was 15 years old, and then giving us the superstars that we were already superstars. One of the things you say is that when it comes to improving performance in any area of life, the most basic and effective strategy is to close performance gaps. These are the gaps between what we know we're supposed to do and what we actually do. Everyone has performance gaps, but the world's highest performers and achievers have found ways to eliminate or reduce them.

in the most important areas. Obviously, I think the thing that strikes me most about that is that we know what we're supposed to do. So I want to look at this from two angles. One is talk me about Kevin Durant as a person at 15 years old. I had you listen to the Greg Hartle conversation for a good reason, because I felt like there was a lot of insight in that conversation. And you yourself said you knew that you were not destined to play pro basketball. So.

When you're looking at this concept of you know, the probability and possibility like how is it? And of course, I think we have to be realistic about this as you and I were talking before like genetics play a role Whether we like it or not, especially in something like athletics But talk to me about Kevin Durant at 15 years old and the evolution as it relates to this idea of closing performance gaps

Alan Stein, Jr.

When I first met Kevin, and I remember it vividly, a friend of mine that worked for Nike said, you gotta watch this kid play. And Kevin was, I believe, 14 at the time. And I watched him play for just a few minutes, and a few things were blatantly obvious to me. Number one, this kid loves to play basketball. I mean, it was in the summer. It was like 110 degrees inside this hot, crowded gym. And this kid was playing his tail off and was smiling ear to ear the entire time. So it was clear he loved to play.

It was also clear that even at that young age, he was very fundamentally sound. You know, he had been coached and he'd learned the game the right way. His shooting mechanics, his footwork, his form, I mean, it was all pristine. It was also very clear to me that even though he was young, he had a very high basketball IQ. Like the game came rather naturally to him. Like he knew what passes to make and when to make them and how to make them. And he could see the court and knew what a good shot was. And he was a selfless player.

but he had a very high basketball IQ. And then the fourth thing that was clear to me was that he was rather frail at the time. I mean, Kevin's always been a taller, slender young man, but it was clear to me that he lacked the physical strength and power that he would need to not only play through high school, but then eventually play in college, and of course, if he wanted to play professionally. So for me as a basketball strength and conditioning coach,

I was very confident about the fact that I had what this young man needed to kind of unlock the key to make sure that he was going to get close to reaching his potential. And that was kind of what started our relationship. But it was so clear to me that he had all of the tools that would be required to play the game at a high level. I mean, Kevin was tall, he was athletic, he was very coordinated. He checked all of the boxes. Now if you would have asked me then...

to fast forward 20 years and did I think that Kevin Durant would become one of the greatest scores in the history of the game and put him on the Mount Rushmore of current players in the NBA? No, I did not know he was going to be that good. But now that I see that he is looking backwards, I'm also not at all surprised. He had all of the tools, the work ethic, the grit, the desire. He was very coachable. So he, like I said, he checked every single box of what it would take.

Alan Stein, Jr.

to be able to play the game at the highest level. And that was obvious at a very early age.

Srini

Talk to me about that whole probability and possibility thing because Kevin Durant is probably not the only kid on that court who had dreams of going to the NBA. Can you look at somebody and tell, and also when do people have to have a reality check with themselves and say, you know what, somebody like me, I knew after eighth grade basketball that me playing even high school was not going to be likely.

Alan Stein, Jr.

Yeah, well, you bring up such a great point. That was one of my favorite parts of the Greg Hartle interview was this concept of possibility versus probability. And you really hit it on the head. When you're talking about something like athletics, where there is a clear physical component, it will change the probability for sure. What makes it such an interesting discussion is when you step outside of the realm of athletics and you look at the business world or the arts or music or acting,

the physicality becomes less important. Now they're also in those different domains, there are very important attributes that would greatly increase someone's chance of being successful in that endeavor, but it's just not as clear to the naked eye as it is in sports. And you hit it on the head. There were plenty of players here in the DC area around the time Kevin was coming up that had just as good a physical tools as Kevin had, but never ended up making it. And that's really where

it becomes a perfect storm. I mean, yes, to ascend to the top in basketball, you do need some predispositions physically, height being one, athleticism, coordination, power, explosiveness, and there are always gonna be a very small handful of exceptions to that. But for the most part, that's required. But that by itself is just not enough. Not enough to play at the highest level in the NBA. You have to combine that with

you know, being a very skilled player, being in shape, being coachable, having a high IQ, having tremendous resiliency and work ethic, you know, loving to compete, focusing on the process. I mean, this is when it just becomes this mosaic or this collage of a variety of different traits that are required to get there. And that's why it's, you know, kind of a weeding out process every level that you go. That's why you can be a really good high school player.

and still not be good enough to play in college or be a really good college player and still not be good enough to make it to the NBA. I mean, in theory, the NBA is the top 450 players walking the earth. I mean, you know, on a planet of 8 billion people that puts you in a very, very exclusive group.

Srini

Yeah. Well, so talk to me about from that standpoint, from that point forward, like when you kind of have what it takes, I think that the thing that strikes me here is like, we know what we're supposed to do. One, like if we know what we're supposed to do to bridge our performance gaps, why don't we do it? Let's start there.

Alan Stein, Jr.

Sure, and I love that you're pulling on that thread because what I've always found so interesting, so I'm almost 48 years old, so I'm a product of going to school, primarily in the 80s and the 90s, and there was always this PSA that would come on TV all the time and it would say, knowledge is power, knowledge is power. And I find that now, with a little more life experience and wisdom under my belt, that it's not that statement is incorrect, I just find it incomplete.

Srini

Yeah.

Alan Stein, Jr.

Because to me, the power is not in the knowledge. The power is in the application. It's in the execution. It's the implementation. It's putting it into action. Knowing without doing is utterly useless. So that's where performance gaps come into place. I'm under the assertion that most of us know most of what we need to be successful, high producers, high performers and be happy and fulfilled in our lives. So...

the knowledge isn't the problem. It's the doing is where we all get stuck and we all get hung up. And that's really kind of pivotal to my work is helping people remove the barriers that are preventing them from implementing the things that they know. And the best example I could give is, to all of your listeners right now, if I had each of them take out a piece of paper and write down a list of the 10 healthiest foods that they know of, every person listening to your show could do that easily. And I bet a good handful

of people would write the same foods down. If I asked all of your listeners, how much sleep are you supposed to get every night? Most of them would shout out a number in a split second and many of them would actually shout out the same number. And if I asked your listeners, what should you do from a physical fitness standpoint, kind of a movement and workout standpoint each week? They don't need to be able to design a workout to go in men's or women's health, but just generally speaking, what should you do?

to at least have a decent level of physical fitness. I have zero doubt that every single one of your listeners would be able to write that down. But then we prove the performance gap because if I asked every single one of your listeners, well, you know, how often do you eat those foods? Is that the amount of sleep you got last night? And when's the last time you did one of those workouts? If the answer is, you know, they haven't been doing those things, then in this case, from a physical fitness and wellness standpoint, they clearly have a performance gap.

They know what they should be eating. They know how much sleep they should be getting, and they know what they should be doing to take care of their bodies, but they're just not doing it. And it's important for them to understand and have that level of awareness that knowledge is not the problem, because I think many people hide behind that. And it's important to be able to look in the mirror and say, I know what to do. Now I need to execute. Now I need to implement. And ultimately, that's what separates average from good and good to great.

Alan Stein, Jr.

is the ability to execute, implement, and put things into action.

Srini

Yeah, well, it's funny because each one of those things you mentioned, I'm thinking to myself, like we have an interview on exactly one of those topics. And I have always joked that if I could literally put into action every single thing I've learned from our podcast guests, I'd be a billionaire with six pack abs. But I'm not like, but let's talk about self-awareness, because I think this was another thing that really struck me in the book was that you said, here's a foundational argument for the rest of the book. The single most important thing a person needs for success is self-awareness. And

Alan Stein, Jr.

Yeah.

Srini

I think so many of us are unaware of how much we lack self-awareness. It's a really weird sort of... Self-awareness is so nebulous, it's even hard to understand it and define it.

Alan Stein, Jr.

Hehehehe

Alan Stein, Jr.

Absolutely, and you're so right. And awareness in general is always the first step to improvement because you're never gonna improve something you're unaware of and you're never gonna fix something you're oblivious to. So awareness as an overarching concept is vital to our growth and our improvement. But yes, self-awareness is without question the foundation to which the rest of the house is built. And I can say with a huge smile and a wink that I spent easily the first three and a half decades of my life.

very unaware. I mean, you know, and as you just pointed out so, so insightfully, at that time, I was unaware that I was unaware. I mean, you don't know what you don't know until it's brought up to the forefront. So yes, self-awareness can be somewhat elusive. And the way I look at self-awareness is how aligned is your evaluation of yourself with how the rest of the world sees you.

So a perfect example would be if I asked you, Shreeny, if you're a good listener and you said, yes, I'm a great listener, and then I went and asked the five people that know you the best and they all said, oh no, he's an awful listener. It's like talking to a wall. That would tell me that you lack self-awareness, that you believe you're a good listener, but the rest of the world disagrees. If I asked you if you were a good listener and you said, you know what, Alan, it's something that I'm...

I really need to improve on. It's not one of my strongest traits, but it's something I'm conscious of and I'm gonna get better at. And then I asked the five people closest to you and they said, yeah, he's not a very good listener. That would show me that you have a very high sense of self-awareness. You are aware of the fact that in this example, listening is not one of your strongest attributes and it's something that you need to improve and you need to get better at. And so to me, that's the key to self-awareness. It's being able to have an incredibly

360 degree view of yourself. And one of the ways that we increase self-awareness is counterintuitive as this sounds, is by asking those closest to us, because they're the ones that can help us see our blind spots and they can see us from different angles. And that's really what kind of helped me with my self-awareness awakening. When I was going through a divorce just about 10 years ago, I started going in for some professional counseling and some professional therapy.

Alan Stein, Jr.

I am incredibly grateful that therapist held me to a high level of accountability and really showed me how unaware I was and was able to bring many things to the forefront. And that's really what kind of started me on my journey. And self-awareness is similar to physical fitness in the way that I don't think you ever fully arrive. And it's also something that kind of ebbs and flows. I mean, I'll admit for me personally,

Overall, I am way more self-aware today than I was a decade ago. But even now in present times, I have some days and some weeks and some months where I'm more self-aware than others. And then there's other times where I have more blind spots. So it's not something that you ever arrive at. And it's something that requires continuous work, just like physical fitness. You can't plant your flag in the ground and say, hey everyone, I'm physically fit, and then stop eating well,

proper rest and stop working out. Because if you stop doing those things within a matter of weeks, you'll no longer be physically fit. Well, it's the same thing with self-awareness. If you're not constantly introspective and constantly consulting with those around you and constantly doing the work that's required, then you'll no longer be aware. So it's a lifelong practice, not a destination that someone arrives at.

Srini

kind of laughing that you use listening as an example, because people who hear me on the podcast think I'm an amazing listener. And I'm like, in this one context, I'm exceptional at it. And I'm completely aware that I'm terrible at it in every other area of my life. Like, you know, you get me off of the radio or off when I'm behind the mic. It's like my superpower when I'm not like I just, you know, babble nonstop. This is like what my sister and brother-in-law like you're perfect for you know, our nephew, my nephew, because

He needs somebody to talk to him and you don't stop talking. Which is probably the reason he likes me so much. Um, but I think there's one other thing that was a really interesting aspect of self-awareness that really struck me. You said, this is the essence of self-awareness, swallowing hard truths and recognizing the real version of you that's staring back in them, staring you back in the mirror, not the, the you that you wish you were, or the you that you'd like to present to the world, the you as you actually are right here and right now.

And so what this reminded me of was this idea of a feedback. Because like I said, I told you, the interview with Greg might have been inspiring. Working with him day to day was anything but inspiring. It was basically just grilling me. And I mean, he was hard. He was really hard. But I was talking to my friend Sam Dogan on his podcast, Financial Samurai. He had me as a guest recently. And I coined this term that I call the paradox of receptive resistance, which is this idea that

During our youth when we're most in need of and should be the most open to constructive and hard feedback that's often when we're most resistant to it because our egos are too fragile and It's this tension between what feels good and what actually is good and I had said this before I was like, yeah You know what you want to hear feels good. What you need to hear is good and so even when I hired writing coach for my book, I Specifically chose the woman I chose because she said she would be hard and she was brutal

And it took me a month before I stopped taking her feedback personally. But I think in two books and two manuscripts, the closest thing I ever got to a compliment for her was good. Most of her comments were lazy, try again. And she made me such a better writer. But there was a time and even my friend Sam, he had written this post entitled, you know, do people think they can work 40 hours a week and less than 40 hours and complain that they're not getting ahead? And he kind of subtly like, you know,

Alan Stein, Jr.

Hmm.

Srini

taking a dig at me in that post. And this was like nine years ago. And I was like, Sam is the biggest dick and get a funny thing is now we're friends. But he and I both kind of said, you know, like the, I told him, I was like, the crazy thing is that you were right, but I couldn't see it. And he also recognized, you know, his own issues in that whole situation. But it was really an interesting discussion about this paradox of receptive resistance. So like, talk to me about that because the guys you work with are really young when you start with them.

Alan Stein, Jr.

I'm gonna go.

Srini

Like how do you get them to that point of coachability and one, get them to swallow things that are hard truths, the things that they need to hear, not necessarily the things they want to hear.

Alan Stein, Jr.

Oh my goodness. Well, certainly anyone listening right now, I want you to rewind for the last three minutes and listen to what Srini just said, because there was so much brilliance and gold and insight right there. And you hit on so many things that, yeah, we can pull on all of these threads. To answer your question though, the very first thing that I wanted to make sure every single one of my athletes knew was that I cared about them as a human being first and as a basketball player second.

You know, I felt that it was my job to build that bridge and establish trust and mutual respect and make sure that they know that I had their back and that their goals and their dreams now became my goals and my dreams. And by solidifying that type of relationship, that would open the door to them being more open and receptive to hearing the things they needed to hear versus hearing the things they wanted to hear. And even with that said, I also believe that to be a good coach,

you have to be somewhat chameleon-like. I certainly didn't treat every single player I worked with the exact same. I did my best to customize my coaching and my approach and the way I'd communicate with each player based on their needs, not based on my preferences. And I wanted to make sure that I treated every player fairly, every player with respect and dignity. But if someone needed a little bit more tough love, then that's what I gave them.

If someone needed a little bit more coddling in order for the message to resonate and get through, then that's what I gave them. I didn't judge and I didn't try this one size fits all. So for me, it was making sure they know that I cared about them as a human being. I wanted to develop mutual trust. I wanted them to know that I respected them and I would demand that they would respect me and that whatever it was they were trying to pursue, I was going to do everything in my power to help them get there.

under the umbrella of what it was that I was doing, which was being a strength and conditioning and performance coach. But that's where it would start. And it's been my experience, especially in the basketball world, that the best players, they crave that type of feedback. They crave that type of coaching. They want you to point out when their footwork isn't perfect because they wanna correct it. And they wanna make sure that all of the reps that they're getting in during the unseen hours, they're going to be doing them.

Alan Stein, Jr.

correctly, whether you're talking about someone shooting form or you're talking about their footwork, they don't want to get in the habit of doing something wrong over and over and building the wrong habit. Or what we used to say in the game was, you don't want to get good at bad shooting, which is what you do if you go in there with bad form and shoot rep after rep. So those players would crave anyone that could give them something that would make them better. And that's why it would become increasingly harder as you kind of move up the ranks because

You know, you get to the level of a, of a Stephen Curry or a Kobe Bryant in the MBA. There's not very many people that can offer competent feedback and coaching to help someone at that level. So, you know, that, that's what would make it so important, but yeah. And, and that it all starts with the relationship. I mean, I, um, from an X's and O's standpoint and a sets and reps and programming standpoint, I mean, I was, I was decent at that stuff.

Srini

Right, exactly. Yeah.

Alan Stein, Jr.

But I wasn't world-class at that. What I think my superpower was, was the ability to build and forge strong relationships with my players. And many times had to do so very quickly. You know, I mean, you have to get that buy-in and believe in and those first couple of workouts or they'll completely tune out and look somewhere else. So the caring portion matters. And everything I just shared there, I believe that translates into business as well. You know, whether you're a CEO or a manager or a supervisor.

You know, you need to establish a strong connected relationship with the members of your team in order to earn the right to coach them to their full potential.

Srini

Well, let's talk about one other thing here. You say that we live in an instantly downloadable world that encourages us to skip steps and circumvent the process. We're taught to chase what's hot, flashy, and sexy and ignore the fundamentals. We're lured into hacking this or that, finding a way to skip the line, but the basics work they always have and they always will. A hack is a shortcut, a hack is a data breach, a hack is what people call a lame comedian. I don't believe in any of these. I believe in efficiency, not shortcuts. Skip the hacks, do the work, earn your success.

our culture encourages us to skip these steps because we think we can get the glory without getting down to the basics. I love that so much because I think that as simple as it is and as obvious as that might be, to your point, we live in a culture that gives us all these sort of life hacks, shortcuts, et cetera, to wealth, to stardom, to fitness, whatever it is, like the latest diet craze, all this other, just a world of just utter bullshit. So two things that I wonder.

about this. You talked about the unseen hours, which I think are very related to what you just said there. And I've often said, like, we don't actually see any of what goes into somebody's achievements. We see the end result. And so one thing I wonder, when you contrast somebody like a Kevin Durant, who grew up with a cell phone in his hand versus, you know, people who are already in the league, you know, by the time you get to like, you know, Kobe's age, what's the difference? What have you seen as the difference in terms of that? Because there are two things that

became like kind of obvious to me. Like I remember when Steph Curry put that master class on master class to how to shoot a basketball. I remember thinking, I mean, my friend, this was like the middle of a pandemic. And my friends and I are joking like, hey, you think we could actually learn how to shoot a three properly if we watch this thing? But the thing about that strikes me is there are two sort of interesting dynamics at play here, right? Like part of me believes that part of the reason we've seen such a high level of performance in sports like we never have before is that

Yeah, when Kobe Bryant was growing up, he didn't have the luxury to get on YouTube and watch Kobe Bryant be Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant did. And to have that in one way is a blessing, but layer social media on top of that. And it's a curse. So talk to me about how those dynamics play out.

Alan Stein, Jr.

Oh man, you just nailed it right there. And it does come back, there is a direct line between putting in work during the unseen hours, quality work and earning the right to be confident and successful, as well as not looking to skip steps and embracing the basics. And for me, it all changed in 2007, the first time I got a chance to meet Kobe Bryant and I got to watch one of his early morning workouts. And I was...

one of many people that believed in 2007, Kobe was the best player on the planet. And when I watched his early morning workout, I remember as a young coach being so surprised that he was just doing such basic movements and basic drills and fundamentals. I'm expecting to see the best player in the world do some things with a little bit more sizzle, but he was just, he was relentlessly banging away at the basics. Now he was doing them with unparalleled focus and incredible intensity and effort.

but the actual drills and movements he was doing were very basic. And later that day at camp, when I asked him about that, why a player of his stature would be doing such basic fundamentals, he said something that changed my life and my perspective forever. He said, I'm the best in the world because I never get bored with the basics. And it hit me like a lightning bolt. One, it reminded me that I'm certainly not the best in the world at what I'm doing. And if drilling down on the basics and the fundamentals,

is good enough for Kobe Bryant, then you better believe it's good enough for me. So it certainly humbled me. But it also reminded me that just because something is basic in premise doesn't mean that it's easy to actually do. The basics aren't easy and basic and easy are not synonyms. People often use those words as if they're interchangeable, but that's a mistake because they don't mean the same thing. I believe that what it takes

to be incredibly successful, to be a high performer, to be highly productive are very basic principles in basketball, in business, and everything in between. But to actually do those things relentlessly every single day with attention and focus and effort is anything but easy. And, you know, that, my whole paradigm shifted from that one encounter with, with Kobe Bryant. And it's really the foundation of, of how I try to leave my, lead my life at present.

Alan Stein, Jr.

It's the foundation of what I share on stage and on page. It's learn to embrace the basics and the fundamentals, work towards mastery of them, especially during the unseen hours. And that will lay the foundation for your success in any area. And that is what is not being shown on social media, on the internet, you know, that, you know, and guys like Stephen Curry and Kevin Durant, they know that, they do that. You know, I don't think most of your listeners have any idea.

idea how much time those two young men have spent in empty gyms when no one is watching them working on their craft. But that's what gives them the, you know, that's what earns them the opportunity to do that when the lights are on, the cheerleaders start dancing, the cameras start rolling and millions and millions of people are watching. You know, if Steph Curry had a game tonight and he dropped 60 points and knocked down 13 three-pointers, you know, many folks would just be incomplete. All of that.

And it is a remarkable performance. But if you knew how much time and effort he worked on his craft and how many millions of shots he's taken over the course of his life, game shots from game spots and game speed in an empty gym, then it actually becomes less surprising and it becomes more of an expectation. I think Stephen Curry expects to score 60 and drop 13 threes every time he takes the court because he's put in the work to deserve the opportunity to do so.

Srini

Well, let's do a bit of a deeper dive into to social media here, because I know you reference Kel Newport in your book as well as a friend of mine. And he and I had a conversation about elite athletes and the role of deep work and attention. And he'd written this post on his blog. You may have read about Bryce Harper, who has virtually no social media presence at a four hundred and thirty million dollar contract. And he actually had. I don't know. You'll have to fact check me on this. But we were talking about the athletes who tweet the night before a game.

and the difference in performance. They very tangibly play worse. And he said, you know, a 10% difference in performance in the NBA is the difference between making the playoffs and not. So you've got the Kevin Durant generation, it's all grown up with this stuff in their hands. They all have social media. Like, how do they deal? So how do you, as a coach, make them think about this stuff? And the next generation is potentially even more susceptible to the downsides of this. Because...

If you're a college athlete now, because I remember this, there was another documentary that Peter Berg did. It was called QB1. You may have seen it. It was like after Friday Night Lights came out and he showcased all these high school quarterbacks. And I remember going and looking at a few of them on Instagram thinking, Jesus Christ, these guys are getting like hammered with attention. So talk to me about sort of the difference when you have sort of the Kobe Bryant generation versus the Kevin Durant generation.

Alan Stein, Jr.

huge believer that one of the components that dictates our performance in any area of life is our environment. It's our physical environment, it's our relational environment, it's our mental and emotional environments, and that landscape is what's drastically changed, especially over the last 20 to 30 years, because now social media and access to YouTube and things like that have shifted that environment. Going back to my belief in the basics and

you know, in trying to simplify success. And I say this with a huge smile, you know, really the foundational recipe for getting good at anything is to do more of what works and do less of what doesn't. And I say that with a smile because there's millions of people walking the earth right now, doing things repeatedly that they know don't work and yet they keep doing them because they provide them with a certain level of comfort. Well, the reason I bring that up is I do think, while we can probably find

some general traits amongst many, it is somewhat of an individual, it needs to be an individual approach. I think there are some players that can be active and use social media and it becomes less of a distraction to them because they have certain guard rails and parameters up and it'll have a minimal negative effect on their performance or their outlook. And then there's others who it could be catastrophic. So I think each and every

in this case, athlete, but really any human being walking the earth needs to figure those things out for themselves. They need to figure out how dependent they are on some of these resources. And as you said, if you know that tweeting the day before your game is going to cause a 10% decrease in performance, then you need to have the self-discipline and you need to insulate yourself with people that care enough about you to make sure that you don't do that.

And so that's where environment comes into play. And a good portion of our environment, not just the physical part, it's the relational environment. It's the people that we spend most of our time with. And we have to have the discipline to put up certain guardrails and boundaries around what it is that we do. I know every NBA playoffs, there are certain players that go completely dark and stop all social media activity during the playoffs so that they can focus. And for them, that tends to work really well.

Alan Stein, Jr.

then there's some others that still say somewhat active on social media, and they tend to perform at a high level too. So I really do think it's somewhat of an individual's decision, but this all goes back to what we were talking about earlier about self-awareness. Do you even know your operating system? Do you know what approaches and perspectives and boundaries that you thrive in and perform well in? And that's what you need to figure out. And that, you know, when you look at a player,

like LeBron James or Tom Brady, guys that have been at the peak of their leagues, their respective leagues and sports for two decades, you better believe that they've learned a lot along the way. And especially the transition and, you know, how much social media and the internet has grown over those two decades and the adjustments that they've had to make because it's always moving. It's always a moving target and they have to stay.

aware and they have to stay insulated with good people that can help them see their blind spots and then they have to make decisions that are in the best interest of their performance on the court and on the field.

Srini

Well, I think that this actually makes a perfect segue into character, and I'm so glad you brought up LeBron James because I just imported my book notes from.

Srini

And I want to talk about character. And this in particular to me was really striking. This was, I believe, game three, I think, in the NBA finals. And they were playing the Cavs were playing the Spurs. And basically I'll read the excerpt to you. It says already starting to elevate LeBron shook off bone and let fly a three. Delaney, who's a referee, didn't blow his whistle. LeBron turned to Delaney. He followed me. The final buzzer sounded and the Spurs ran under the court in jubilation. And. You know,

LeBron yelled at him and said, you know, he's been felled pointing at his right arm. But when they showed the replay on air the next day, LeBron James had a legitimate complaint. Color analyst Mike Fratellis said, it didn't matter. The Cavs had lost and the Spurs had led the series 3-0. But this was the part that struck me the most. Afterward, LeBron was asked about the missed call at the end. At that point, he saw no point in calling out the referee. Instead, he took the blame, saying he should have played better, even though his complaint was valid.

And that stayed with me so much because it was just like, wow, even on an unfair call, he still took responsibility for the situation. And I was like, OK, this to me seems like a great example of character. But the thing is, these guys are in the limelight with opportunities to be distracted. And this is the other thing that struck me most about this book was that LeBron had the same girlfriend since high school. Basically, he saw sort of the quote, unquote, lifestyle as a sideshow.

So talk to me about the role of character at this level and how people who achieve at such levels also end up doing things that completely destroy their careers.

Alan Stein, Jr.

Yeah. And it really is a shame. I mean, it, when you get to that level, especially in sport and a sport like basketball and in the NBA, I mean, you are living in a fish bowl. And now with, uh, you know, a 24 hour news cycle and, and ESPN running for 24 hours and social media and people having camera phones at games. And I mean, it is the level of scrutiny is unbelievable. And you know, one thing I think that is so remarkable about

LeBron James, not just what he's been able to accomplish on the court, but you're talking about someone that was deemed the chosen one, you know, as a teenager, as he, as he made the cover of sports illustrated when he was still in high school and you fast forward to the point that he's been in this league for two decades, he has spent more of his life in the NBA than he spent out of the NBA. I mean, that's pretty incredible. Uh, just from a chronological standpoint and the fact that, that he.

Srini

Heheheheheheh

Alan Stein, Jr.

Really the only blemish he has, at least that I ever hear, is that maybe when he made quote unquote, the decision to leave Cleveland, it lacked a little bit of class and a little bit of tact. If that's the only thing that someone can put on this man who has been in a fishbowl for 25 years of his life, then yeah, his character is absolutely remarkable.

Srini

Yeah.

Srini

Well, he even he even the biographer even wrote about that. And I remember Trevino talking about this when he left, you know, Cleveland to go to LA. And they were like, Well, you can't really say a damn thing because he just bought $100 million school for Cleveland. Like he kind of was like, Yeah, I'm leaving but I'm not going to do it the same way this time.

Alan Stein, Jr.

Absolutely. I mean, his level of character is unbelievable. And we could easily come up with a list of other players, maybe not quite LeBron's stature. I mean, he's a once in a generation player, but plenty of other players who have made some less than ideal decisions and have shown some moments of at least brief moments of having lower character or making lower character decisions. And it's been costly. I mean, it's one of those things.

You know, it's that old adage that, you know, it can take a lifetime to build trust and it can take a moment to lose it. I mean, it is a real challenge for these guys that are living in the public eye. But I've always been a believer in just the general principle of how you do anything is how you do everything. And that, you know, when a player like LeBron strives for excellence on the basketball court, well, he also strives for excellence in the character department and in all of the different facets of his life. I mean,

You know, he strikes me as someone that cares about being a present and attentive father to his kids. Um, you know, even though he's one of the most famous and most recognized human beings on the planet, um, so yeah, character is, is going to be the foundation to which everything else is built. And with that said, um, I do believe in giving people some grace and some space and having compassion. Uh, I certainly know looking back, you know, I've, I've.

made plenty of mistakes in my life. I mean, with everything we're talking about in this conversation and everything I share during my keynotes and everything I've put in my books, please know that I am not coming from a place of mastery. I am not batting a thousand and I definitely don't have all straight A's. Like I have made plenty of mistakes, said and done plenty of boneheaded things and have had plenty of times where I wasn't my best in the moment and I've done some less than ideal things from a character standpoint.

And I think as human beings, our goal should never be perfection, but instead it should be progress. That we need to be aware of the fact that we're human, we're flawed, we're fallible. We are occasionally going to say or do things that might not be a true representation of our core values. And we need to be able to learn from those mistakes. We need to make amends for those mistakes. We need to do the best we can not to repeat them. And to me, that's the...

Alan Stein, Jr. (01:00:00.322)

That's the essence of true character. It's not living a perfect life. It's doing the best you can with what you have, where you are. And when you do quote unquote, step out of bounds or make a mistake, you hold yourself fully accountable for it. You don't blame, complain, or make excuses. You hold yourself fully accountable and you make amends and you move on and you try not to repeat it. And that, that the level as Jaco Willink would say of extreme ownership.

and full personal accountability and not trying to hold yourself to a perfect standard, that's the real definition of character. So it's not about living a perfect life, it's about acknowledging when you do something that's less than perfect and try to move on and learn and grow from it.

Srini

Yeah. Well, I think that it's funny because that really brings us full circle back to this notion of self-awareness because you mentioned the scrutiny that you get being in the public eye. And this is something that I became aware of, like as we grew and, you know, I had a reality TV appearance and I realized it's like, okay, to some degree, I'm a public figure. I'm not LeBron James, but like, when you're in the public eye, everything you say and do matters and you need the self-awareness to know that, you know, your words have implications. You're

actions have consequences not just for you anymore, but for other people.

Alan Stein, Jr.

Oh, you're so right. You know, one of the quotes that always has resonated with me is, you know, you're free to say and do whatever you want, but you're not free from the consequences of what you say and do. So you need to hold yourself to a high level of accountability. And I'll say for me personally, similar to you, I mean, I'm certainly no LeBron James, but at least a little bit of a public figure, at least at an event. When I go speak in an event, I'm gonna be in front of either a few hundred or a few thousand people, I feel an even higher...

sense of responsibility to make sure there is alignment between what I'm sharing on stage and who I'm presenting myself to be on stage and how I behave when no one else is watching. One of my biggest fears, and I don't mean fear as in this keeps me up at night, but it's something I'm highly conscious of, would be for me to speak to a group at an event and then later that night, someone sees me being disrespectful to the wait staff at a restaurant.

By my definition, that would make me a hypocrite. You know, I'm preaching and teaching one thing and then I'm behaving in a completely different manner. And for me, I wanna hold myself to the highest standard, whether I'm on stage or off stage, whether the scene or the unseen hours. Now with that said, I'm allowed to make mistakes. I'm allowed to have moments where I'm not my best self, but I wanna do everything I can to live up to the person that I am trying to become.

and the person that I portray myself as on stage, on podcasts like this, the social content that I put out in the world, I want those things to all be in perfect alignment. And I work really hard at that. And for me being a, a very, very low level public figure helps hold me to that.

Alan Stein, Jr.

to a much higher degree. And that's one of many reasons that I love what I do for a living.

Srini

Amazing. Well, I have one last question for you, which is how we finish all of our interviews at the end, Mistakeable Creative. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Alan Stein, Jr.

I'm big on terminology and I'm big on words. And first of all, I love the word itself, unmistakable. And when I hear that, it makes me think of unique. It makes me think of being distinct. And I think for all of us, we should raise our level of self-awareness and have the introspection to figure out what makes me unique, what makes me distinctive, what makes me a little bit different, and how can I lean on that? How can I lean into that?

How can I double down on that? How can I use the things that make me distinctive and unique as I go through life? And I think when we make decisions with our heart and our head and we lean into what makes us unique and distinctive, then we're gonna start to have unmistakable experiences, create unmistakable relationships and do unmistakable things in this world. And I highly encourage everyone to do that.

Srini

Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story, your wisdom, and your insights about all of us. This has been fantastic. Where can people find out more about you, your work, and everything else?

Alan Stein, Jr.

Why I appreciate this so much. And I want to say this, and I hope this, it's okay that I'm saying this. I want your listeners to know that you and I were connected by my publicist and we had never met before. And we logged on 48 hours ago to have the interview. And you had mentioned that you had not had a chance to read my book yet. And the fact that you even brought that up just absolutely blew me away. But I want your listeners to know that in the last 48 hours you downloaded the Kindle version of my book and read it from

virtual cover to cover to make sure that you felt prepared for this conversation. And I can't tell you how much I admire and respect the fact that you cared enough to do that, that you care enough about your craft, you care enough about the show, you care enough about your listeners to put in that type of work and show that type of commitment during the unseen hours. I can't fathom.

how much you have on your plate and how busy you are. So for you to be able to read a book in 48 hours to feel better prepared for this conversation, I just think is remarkable. You are world-class at what you do, and this is a world-class show. And no one would ever know that, because I know you wouldn't tell anyone that, but I just wanted to highlight that, because that is the definition of a high performer, and that is the definition of someone that does the heavy lifting during the unseen hours so they can be the best that they're capable.

So I just wanted to go on record to say that. But to answer your question, folks can easily find me at alansteinjr.com. That's the hub of everything that I do from a speaking standpoint. I'm very easily accessible and responsive on social media. I'm at Alan Stein Jr. on Instagram and Twitter, and you can just search Alan Stein Jr. on LinkedIn. If any part of this conversation resonated or struck a chord or someone wants to share something or ask something,

Just shoot me a DM on Instagram or LinkedIn. I'm great about getting back with folks. And if you have an interest in either book, raise your game or sustain your game. You can find those on Amazon or Audible or wherever you get your books and audio books. So this was a real treat for me and thank you so much.

Srini

Yeah, and for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.