Alex Banayan | Learning to Live Again After Tragedy and Loss

Srini Rao

Alex, welcome back to the Unmistakable Creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us. Yeah, it is my pleasure to have you back here. We had you back here, I think almost four years ago, when you had your book, The Third Door, come out, and I remember that being one of those conversations that just really struck a chord with a lot of people, and I remember you even telling me.

Alex Banayan

It feels good to be back, man. Thanks for having me.

Srini Rao

people even cried when they heard the interview. I thought, okay, well, this is a good story. I mean, it really was. So on that note, what, you know, our audio editor, Josh is so good. I remember once we did this episode on the mystery of love where we took the 36 questions to fall in love with anybody and had two friends ask each other and Josh asked for creative direction. I said, I don't know, just bring the audience to tears.

Alex Banayan

That's that's our goal here. Everyone to walk.

Srini Rao

So on that note, I wanted to start today by asking you, what is one of the most important things that you learned from one or both of your parents, one or both of your parents that have influenced and shaped who you've become and what you ended up doing with your life?

Alex Banayan

Hmm. Oh, if I'm talking about my mom, it's super different than if I'm talking about my dad.

Srini Rao

Tell them dollars both then.

Alex Banayan

Okay, my mom is easier for me. I've learned and it's nothing, she's never said this and I learned this from her example. I think that's probably the strongest lessons you learn from example. My mom has in the face of extreme pain and extreme difficulty.

Alex Banayan

stood up for herself and stood up for her dignity and has shown me what courage really looks like and that it takes courage and that it's never easy and sometimes you have to be willing to lose things in order to gain back yourself. And that's a great lesson to read in a book. It's a great thing to see on a tweet. But to have the privilege to have.

the person who gave you life, show it to you. And not to teach you a lesson just because it's what she wants for herself.

Srini Rao

What? Yeah, go ahead.

Alex Banayan

It's hard to, yeah, it's hard not to be grateful when you get to have a front row seat.

Srini Rao

Why do you think there are so many people who don't actually learn how to stand up for themselves and actually let people just run all over them and take advantage of them?

Alex Banayan

I can speak from my personal experience. Um, yeah, it's fear. And I think often, not always, but I think often, we can grow up in an environment in childhood where we learn pretty quickly, because kids are smart, kids pick things up pretty quickly. They learn how to survive in whatever situation they're in.

They can realize pretty quickly that, hey, maybe, they're not conscious thoughts, but, oh, maybe people-pleasing will keep this parent from erupting. Oh, maybe, you know, not singing anymore will keep people from bashing on me. Oh, maybe it's by studying science will get people to applaud me.

So we unconsciously pick up on all these implicit messages for our surroundings and without realizing it, whether it's losing our creativity, losing our sense of self, and sometimes most unfortunately losing our sense of dignity. And then we end up, you know, in our 20s or 30s walking into our first therapy session wondering how we got here.

Srini Rao

Well, speaking of implicit messages from the world around you growing up, you and I are both from immigrant cultures, and I know that there's probably a lot of similarities and probably a lot of differences, but what were the implicit messages that you got growing up about making your way in the world? Was it?

Alex Banayan

This is why your podcast is so good.

Srini Rao

I'm just asking the questions that I wanted to answer Stu.

Alex Banayan

I'm just saying like this is this is what makes you special man. Um, because these are the things that I think about too. So, uh, I say that as literally the highest compliment I can. Oh my god, so many implicit messages. You know, one of the things I realized, um, by going to therapy is there's a big difference between the explicit implicit messages, right? You know, explicit message was, you know, my grandparents telling me

Srini Rao

Hahaha

Alex Banayan

Um, you know, they're so proud of me and they love me. Great. Very grateful for that. Implicit message is whenever I talked about any of the creative things I like to do, you know, I sort of, I, I have, uh, this memory of, you know, being a kid, you know, maybe, you know, seven, eight years old. And I would spend all my summers at my grandparents' house. I live maybe like 15 minutes away from, from our house. And I would spend all summer.

like with a video camera filming a little. I didn't even know SNL was a thing, but I was essentially creating like comedy skits with my cousins and actors. I would script them, I would come up with the concepts, we would do parodies. I didn't know what these things were. I thought I was inventing these things. I invented games. I learned later it was called baseball what I had invented. I invented all these things. It was so fun.

Srini Rao

Hahaha.

Srini Rao

Hahaha!

Alex Banayan

And I would spend all, then I would go like hiking. My grandma lives like in a hilly area. I would go like hiking off property and like, it was just like the most fun times. And then I would like, you know, it'd be dinner time. My mom would be around the table. My grandparents would be around the table. And then, you know, my grandpa would look in my eyes and be like, Alex, you know, we've just been watching you all day and we're just so proud of you. And you know, I'm beaming. And he's like, we just see that when you grow up, you're gonna be such.

an amazing doctor.

Srini Rao

hahahaha

Alex Banayan

And when you're eight, it's funny as adults to, you know, we get the punchline when you're eight, you know, punchline. And by the way, there is no punchline. Um, so those, you know, when that happens to you and again, um, it's interesting what I was about to say just now that I actually stopped myself, I was going to say, he said it out of love.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Alex Banayan

I actually don't think that's true. I think he loves me. That's a separate thing.

But my theory is he says it out of fear.

Alex Banayan

Because where my family came from, and it's a fair fear, where my family came from, if you even had a business, forget about being just a creative, if you had a business, people can take that away from you. You know, the government can come and seize your assets, can come seize your property. They always had this belief that if you're a doctor, you know, if you can help people, no matter where in the world you're a refugee.

you can make a living. And that's sort of been the fundamental fear which led to those fundamental implicit messages throughout my childhood.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I can relate. And yeah, to your point. Well, to your point, I mean, I think you make a really good point that is often difficult for people to understand. Even I didn't quite get why my parents believed what they did. It made me want to go back and revise certain sections of my book because I realized that context matters a lot. And in the context that parents like yours and parents like mine grew up in, their life outcomes were fairly binary.

Alex Banayan

I think I'll explain that to you.

Srini Rao

It was poverty or security and the downsides of risk were significant. So I look at it. It took me a long time to finally understand that. Wait a minute. They are giving me this message based on the implicit messages that they got growing up. Well, not even implicit for them. It was very explicit. So speaking of being refugee, I mean, I know you're Varanian descent and, you know, the Middle East is probably one of the most.

Alex Banayan

Mmm. Wow.

Wow.

Srini Rao

sort of unstable regions in the world at this point. I mean, so much so that Richard Haas, one of the economic advisors to George Bush, wrote a book called The World in Disarray where there's an entire section on the Middle East and how this basically could be the start of World War III. But there are a couple of different questions that come from this aspect of things. When you look at the way that things are now,

you know, given everything you've experienced, everything you've been to, what do you think is the path out of the mess that we've created? And I don't think this is isolated in the Middle East. I feel like the world itself is perpetually on the brink of disarray. And that's not necessarily, you know, me being pessimistic. It's just kind of reality. And then the other parts of this that I wonder, and we'll come back to parental expectations, I wanted to see if you had siblings as well. But you and I grew up here and yet.

I know that you're proud of the fact that you have this heritage and culture. How did your parents integrate heritage and culture? And how do you think about making sure that you don't lose it as you get older, you have kids, whatever, and pass that on?

Alex Banayan

Yeah, I think about that a lot, because it's something important to me. It's interesting, my dad came to America, my parents didn't know each other in Iran. You know, they fled separately with their families, the Iranian Revolution in 1979, it came to America as refugees, and my dad came when he was about 22.

And my mom came when she was about 12. They have about a 10 year age difference. Which means, someone comes as a 12 year old and lands in Los Angeles. And by the way, my mom in Iran went to an American school. So she already spoke English. She came essentially as an American. She became an American pretty quickly. She had a Persian family, but she knew how to, you know, coach switch. She understood.

My mom won't get stopped on the street and asked if she's Middle Eastern. For better or for worse, it's just also by the way it also, I don't like thinking about this but it makes a difference. Sadly in America their skin color is pretty different. My mom is very fair skinned. My dad is very dark skinned even though they're from the exact same region. So all of that in a way and I haven't even thought of that until recently.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Alex Banayan

childhood you don't really understand these factors, but what it created was a house that was a bit divided. Even though we were quote-unquote a Persian family, my dad was really Persian. He was old school. He was a lot more ingrained in the culture by the time he had come to America. My mom went to middle school, high school, college, law school, all here in Los

Alex Banayan

So as kids, it did feel like there was almost like two different worlds to live in. And it was really easy, and I feel bad saying this, but there was a lot of shame around. Like I would be embarrassed when my dad would pick me up from school blasting Persian radio.

Srini Rao

Been there, done that. Except mine was I didn't invite my parents to open house because I was embarrassed by their accents.

Alex Banayan

Oh my God, oh, open house. Oh, you just flashed so many memories in my mind. I feel bad and I can't imagine what it must be like as my dad. And this is actually, I've never thought about this before. To get the sense or the energy that your kids are embarrassed. I would imagine that's hard on the soul.

Srini Rao

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Alex Banayan

Whereas my mom, you know...

It was easy. She looked like the white moms. And she acted like them and she spoke like them. And she, and something I've been learning is that there's a thing called internalized racism, which I didn't know, which is when you become, you sort of take on whatever the majority feels, even when it comes to your own religion, your own race. That's the embarrassment of...

of who you are and where you came from.

Srini Rao

Do you have siblings?

Alex Banayan

Yeah, I have two amazing sisters, an older sister who's three years older and a younger sister who's three years younger.

Srini Rao

Okay. So what I wonder is what the implicit messages that they got were versus what you got, because I feel like, you know, I've talked about this before and I always like asking people who are immigrants about this. I feel like when you're in an immigrant family, I bet me and your older sister would probably have a lot in common. And she and I would probably agree that you got away with murder in comparison to her. Yeah.

Alex Banayan

Are you the oldest?

Alex Banayan

Oh yeah, are you the oldest in your family? Oh yeah. And by the way, and sadly this was a reality, the oldest comes with its own stuff in an immigrant family and then the oldest girl comes with its own stuff in immigrant family. If I was the oldest, sadly because of just being a male, there would have been a little bit more leniency.

Srini Rao

Hmm

Srini Rao

Yeah, I can imagine.

Alex Banayan

So my sister has had to fight through things that, yeah, I was the beneficiary of. She broke mom and dad down on a lot of barriers and she has the scars to prove it. And I'm like, the world is awesome. And then by the time I get to my little sister, she goes, how come no one's even yelling at me? I won't be ignored.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I would.

Totally.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Yeah, no, I...

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Whoa, it's funny.

Alex Banayan

By the time it's their child, they're completely broken down, the parents.

Srini Rao

Yeah, well, it's funny because we're one of the guys who we're going to have as a guest is going to be as a designer of Air Jordans. And I remember, you know, just corresponding with me via email, I said, I'm really excited to talk to you because my parents could never even afford to buy me a pair of Air Jordans. And he replied back and he said, neither could mine until I started working at Nike. I never had my first pair. And the reason I brought that up is because.

Alex Banayan

Oh yeah.

Srini Rao

That actually was one of those experiences in adolescence that I think my parents really didn't know how to navigate when suddenly there are popular kids and you start to care about a lot of things that nobody gives a shit about in adult life, like what brand of shoes you're wearing. I was just thinking about how stupid it would be. Can you imagine as an adult going to like a bus stop or even a coffee shop and making fun of somebody because they're wearing crappier, cheap shoes? That would just be absurd, but that's what kids do.

Alex Banayan

Yeah.

Well, actually you'll be surprised what happens in country clubs.

Srini Rao

But I...

Alex Banayan

It's just, it's just, there's like a Kanye line in a Kanye song saying like, I think it's like rich people do the nastiest things or the meanest, someone listening.

Srini Rao

Duh.

Alex Banayan

No, it stays pretty high school in some demographics, I'll tell you that.

Srini Rao

Wait, I mean, that was the thing I think was...

Alex Banayan

Yes, I think people like us do not go around making comments about-

Srini Rao

Well, you know, the reason that that, you know, I brought that up is because I think for people like I was particularly grew up in immigrant families, like when you're the second kid, you don't have to deal with any of that because your parents are like, oh, we've been through this nightmare before we know exactly what this is about. Whereas when you're the first, it's like, what happened to our son? Why is he such an asshole now?

Alex Banayan

the tensions between...

immigrant families when it comes from the people who came from the original country and the kids who were born here. I've been surprised by how similar the melodies are across cultures. I'll talk to kids of Chinese immigrants who read the third door and say, my dad has said the exact same things. Indian families, almost verbatim.

Srini Rao

Ha ha ha.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Alex Banayan

You know, even Mexican fam, because what happens, have you watched the movie Encanto, the Disney movie? It's, you're watching you cry. It's literally the immigrant story, perfectly told. And essentially, I'm not gonna give away the movie, but essentially the themes are what happens when grandma still is holding on so tight to the kids.

Srini Rao

I haven't actually.

Srini Rao

Okay, I'll have to add that to my list.

Alex Banayan

because of trauma she hasn't processed? And what are the effects on the mental health? By the way, none of these words are used in the movie, but if you like, when you're done, you'll realize that's what it's about. What's the effects when you're holding on so tight because of the trauma you went through that you end up suffocating the people who...

Srini Rao

Hmm.

Alex Banayan

who you're trying to give a better life for.

Srini Rao

Well, speaking of mental health, what are the implicit messages about mental health when you grew up in an Iranian community? Because I can tell you for damn sure that in an Indian community, therapy is for crazy people until your son ends up in therapy. Because I remember friends of mine all thought it was all horse shit until their friends started getting divorced and they started seeing the reality of, wait a minute, this is something we've been stigmatizing for way too long and the consequences have been quite severe.

Alex Banayan

What?

Alex Banayan

Therapy for crazy people is a lenient way to say it. To me, my family, therapy and cocaine were in the same category. What I'll say is, again, this is all, this conversation is only possible in hindsight.

Srini Rao

Hahaha!

Alex Banayan

And only possible thanks to, you know, I'm so grateful being able and having the privilege to go to therapy once a week for 10 years. And seeing the positive effects on my mental health and on my outlook in life. And understanding where I came from. The amount of shame, shame and fear, that a lot of cultures, particularly

Persian culture, but you know there's cultures out here in America that function, their family, nuclear family functions just the same as my grandpa's did in you know 1920 Iran. When the when the core of the family is based on shame and fear, the enemy is having an outside body weigh in on what's going on.

Alex Banayan

because the safety comes from keeping the status quo.

And I think a lot of people in our generation right now, and I'm sure a vast, vast swath, maybe even the majority of people listening can resonate with the sort of tectonic shifts that happen in a family dynamic when just that first person starts going to therapy or starts going to support group or starts going into a 12-step group, things changed.

And I'll tell you, many times it's the people who have resisted the change that get the most upset about the changes.

Alex Banayan

But again, it goes back to what I said about my mom in the beginning, which is like, to see someone choose themselves and invest in their own dignity, invest in their own sanity, invest in their own serenity, my God, are you giving a gift to the next generation.

And I think therapy isn't about bashing what happened, it's about understanding it so you don't have to perpetuate the generational pains that have been passed down.

Srini Rao

We actually had a guy here named Mark Wolin who wrote this book called It Didn't Start With You, which was all about generational trauma. And I...

kind of was shocked when I went through it because this was right before the pandemic started. And I remember I got really sick. I couldn't ski or snowboard and I was coughing every day. I had to basically cancel all my interviews because I couldn't even go five minutes without coughing. So I decided to sit down and go through this book and do all the exercises, which I don't always do that for a book. And I think I'd had this like just deep fear of being alone. And as I went through that book and started to look, it was like, wow, there are a lot of men in my family who've been left at the altar.

had weddings that didn't work him like this is not my trauma like this is generationally inherited and I didn't even realize it

Alex Banayan

Good night.

Alex Banayan

Yeah, yeah, it's real, man. And again, the goal isn't to sit around and dwell in it forever. The goal is to understand it and unpack it so we can live freer, more joyful, more enjoyable lives where we can be more creative and be more of service and sleep better.

Srini Rao

So one final question about, um, you know, parents and growing up, you mentioned there's a lot of tension because you have sort of this challenge of integrating two cultures. What did your parents teach you implicitly or explicitly about intimate relationships?

Alex Banayan

Oh.

Alex Banayan

Oh man.

Alex Banayan

Ha.

Alex Banayan

explicitly hold down the fort no matter what it takes. Which I'm starting to realize might not have been the healthiest message. I'm grateful for it, but it might not have been the healthiest.

Srini Rao

No.

Alex Banayan

Wow. Um, implicitly perhaps.

Alex Banayan

Chaos is par for the course of an intimate relationship.

which I'm really trying to unravel and make sure I don't carry out.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Alex Banayan

taking care of the other. It's a balance I haven't figured out yet, which is how to be supportive to your partner without taking care or taking responsibility for their experience or emotions. It's something I struggle with a lot and.

Alex Banayan

and I'm still trying to figure out that balance.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I think that you and I probably had very similar messages. Mine was, you know, there's no such thing as boundaries. As far as the hold down the fort, no matter what, I pretty sure that is probably common to Indians as well. Like, you know, I think it's terrible that we stigmatize Indian women for getting divorced. It's like a scarlet letter. And I think my parents generation, people stayed together because they just thought they should, even though they're miserable together.

Alex Banayan

Yeah, and it's, you know, I can, I see the stories where people are in domestic abusive relationships, they're in physically abusive relationships, they're in emotionally abusive relationships, financially abusive relationships, and the family structure insists that the only thing worse than domestic abuse is divorce. And that's heartbreaking. I don't stand for it. It's actually created a lot of friction.

between me and other people who I know because you know, that's a that's a hill I'm willing to die on because I don't agree.

Srini Rao

Well, I mean, part of the reason you reached out is because you wanted to start have a conversation about the next chapter. And I know that last time you were here, you'd had a book come out. You had this like wild success simultaneously with this horrible tragedy. And this is what you said to me. Take a listen.

Srini Rao

So I wonder about so many things after hearing that clip. I've reflected on that clip so many times. And I remember watching your Facebook news feed as your book became this wild success, selling thousands and thousands of copies. Because I remember I think I had a book come out right around the same time or shortly after. And it didn't do as well. And

I probably have written this down somewhere and I don't know that I ever posted it that I remember thinking to myself Mike all right I wouldn't trade a single sale of my book if it meant losing a minute with my dad and I'm guessing that that's probably the same for you.

Alex Banayan

Man, I'm teary man. I think I'm teary because I can forget what I've been through. And.

Alex Banayan

This has actually been very helpful for me. You playing that clip has brought me some more compassion for myself. I can wonder why I'm still so tightly wound or why in relationships things can feel so painful to open up about.

You know, after, you know, there's more to the story. You know, after you and I had that conversation, what I didn't know is that.

My dad passed away. The day the book came out, or two days after the book came out, my grandfather passed away.

30 days after my grandpa passed away. So I literally go from the book launch to my grandpa's funeral.

Alex Banayan

30 days after that, my grandmother passed away.

In that same year, my childhood friend, who we've known each other since we were in kindergarten, she passed away at the age of 25.

and

Alex Banayan

And yeah, then...

Alex Banayan

Yeah, I'm sort of at a loss for words right now, but...

Alex Banayan

It does help me relax a bit and realize, you know, at the times it does feel like I can be losing my mind a bit or why am I...

Why do things feel so intense? I can forget that there was a lot that's gone on the past few years.

Srini Rao

How old were you when that happened? Because I don't think I remember how old you were when we spoke last time.

Alex Banayan

Thanks for watching.

1. 29 right now.

Srini Rao

I kind of gathered that. So 25, most of us don't ever imagine losing parents at the age of 25. That's pretty early in life. I mean, some people's in childhood, but 25 is not something that any of us do. And I remember just talking to somebody yesterday like saying that I used to think my greatest fear was being alone. And that stopped being my greatest fear for a long time ago. But my greatest fear was that one or both of my parents wouldn't be alive for big moments in my life.

And I wonder at the age of 25 to have experienced so much tragedy and so many losses of some of the people that you love the most. What kind of decisions did you make about how you would live your life going forward?

Alex Banayan

Hmm That makes me smile Because I don't I'm not a big I'm not like a silver lining type person But I am a learning person And tragedy teaches you

Alex Banayan

Whether you want to take the lesson or not is up to you, but there's some lessons there. I have become very, very intentional about knowing which priority comes first.

Almost to the point that it's painful being around people of my generation and my sort of bubble I live in. When I see people obsessed with crypto but they can't talk to their spouse normally, makes me want to pull my hair out. When I see someone really achieving tons of financial success but talks about how...

One day they hope to be able to take their kids to soccer practice. I say, what the fuck are you talking about? You can go, you can go right now. I'm pretty sure you're rich enough to, you know, do it. Um, and they're just trapped. Um, they're trapped psychologically. And I've never really put it in these words, but I think the death of my dad freed me in ways I didn't know.

It sort of showed me. I remember very vividly the week my dad passed away, feeling like I saw the end of the video game.

Because the way my dad passed, you know, my heart breaks when I, and I have friends where a parent gets hit by a car, a parent falls off a ladder and is just gone out of nowhere. I cannot imagine what that's like. With my dad, it was this 14 month march to death from his diagnosis of pancreatic cancer until he took his final breath in our living room while me and my sisters and my mom were standing by his bedside.

Alex Banayan

I did get the, and it might be weird to use the word, but the opportunity to see what it's like to die.

Alex Banayan

And I got to learn sort of what happens at the end if you're lucky enough to be able to, and I really do mean the word lucky enough, to have a year to reconcile and negotiate and do all the things that happen when you're facing your mortality. And it just made me realize like...

Alex Banayan

The relationship with the people close to me is way more important than anything. At the same time, my sense of dignity is way more important to me than anything.

Alex Banayan

I don't want to be on my deathbed wondering what if, what if I actually stood up for what I really believed. What if I, if, what if I would have spoken up and I would have saved that person's life just by using my words?

Alex Banayan

What if I would have risked a safe payday for something that I truly believe would have helped the world in a new way?

Alex Banayan

when you realize you're gonna die at some point.

and not on your own timeline. My dad, at 60, felt he was extremely short-changed. He expected to die at 90, like his dad eventually passed away at. But, you know, having my friend, and her name is actually Mallory Smith, and for those of you who like to read non-fiction, her journals got published.

as a memoir by Penguin Random House. And the book is called Salt in My Soul. And the documentary just came out a few weeks ago and there were great write-ups in the New York Times. And I watched it in the theater with some of my close friends and with Mallory's parents. And...

Alex Banayan

Mallory passed away at 25, my dad passed away at 60. I have a grandpa right now who's 95 and still alive and he also feels he's being shortchanged. And I say that like literally with a laugh because you go, oh, you're always gonna wish for more time, oh, you're always gonna wish for things to be different. And that realization is actually liberating and saying, oh.

Srini Rao

Hahaha

Alex Banayan

So I might as well do whatever the fuck I want. Because I'm always gonna wish there was more time or I could have done it, you know. So there is some liberation and.

And I ask myself quite frequently, my intimacy with death allows me to think about it in a way that I know for a lot of people my age, they can get really nervous about it and I can literally think, oh if I were to die this year, how would I feel on my deathbed and I can have that mental conversation with myself very comfortably.

Alex Banayan

So that's where I'm at.

Srini Rao

Well, speaking of conversations on a deathbed, and reconciliation, and all of those things, tell me about the conversations you had with your dad during those 14 months. What were the ones that stood out?

Alex Banayan

There's one that just popped up in my head the most.

Alex Banayan

There was one day, and there was a handful of ones that I'll remember for...

for the rest of my life, but there was one that really stood out. Because there was the one where he spoke back. Where I felt I could understand him a bit more. And this is maybe the last few months, this is maybe like four months before he passed. He was still on the chemo regimen, still fighting, and I was, you know, picking him up from the chemo center at the hospital and driving back home.

Alex Banayan

There are times.

Alex Banayan

There's a lot of times where you don't feel like you have permission to go there, but there's moments where you just can sort of feel that you have an opening. And I remember I was just me and my dad alone in the car driving home and I just felt I had an opening and I said, What are you the most afraid of about dying?

Alex Banayan

And he answered.

And he said, I'm the most afraid of.

not being able to see the fruit on the trees.

Alex Banayan

And what he was referring to is my older sister was about to get married. I was growing up, you know, my book was about to come out. My younger sister was just graduating college and he explained, you know, I gave my whole life to planting these trees, dreaming of the day I could see the fruit.

Alex Banayan

and it just isn't fair.

Alex Banayan

And I remember grasping for something, you know, trying to think of something to give him some comfort. And I remember, you know, reaching for a biblical reference. You know, my family is Jewish. And a story from the, you know, the Torah, the Old Testament of Moses. And they said, you know, Dad, even though Moses, you know, led, you know, the Israelites out of Egypt, God didn't...

let Moses into Israel. Moses had to die before the fruit was bearing on the tree.

And I looked at my dad and he did not give a shit about that. It brought him zero comfort. So I, like, again, was trying to grasp for something. And an analogy came to me. I said, Dad, maybe life is in a marathon. Maybe it's a relay race.

Srini Rao

Hehehehehehe

Alex Banayan

and your dad ran his leg of the race and passed you the baton. And you ran your leg of the race and your passing. You know, me and my sisters Brianna and Tali of the baton. And no, you ran your race as best as you could.

that brought some relief.

Srini Rao

Weird question, because he said he didn't give a shit. What were the moments that made you guys laugh together during those 14 months?

Alex Banayan

Mm.

We watched a couple like funny movies. I think it's like a my dad loved my dad's like taste in humor Is very like down that like he likes Kevin Hart. He likes like the Rock Two and a half men like that's sort of he liked that stuff I personally more towards like a you know, Larry David Curb Your Enthusiasm or Jerry Seinfeld or We just like watch some movies together which was fun and

Alex Banayan

There wasn't that much laughter, sadly, in those 14 months. I wish there was. There was a lot of fear. There was a lot of anger and resentment of why is this happening. There was lots of tender moments. But the laughter key on the keyboard wasn't played that often, but I'm grateful.

Alex Banayan

And you know what, my dad's favorite comedian was actually a Persian comedian by the name of Mazjid al-Bani. And we were able to bond over that. We were able to go watch. I remember there's like a movie of Kevin Hart, I think like being a silly police officer with the rock. I feel like there's like 50 of those movies. It was another funny, silly Kevin Hart being silly. He's small, the rock's big. Ha ha ha.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm. I've seen that one. Yeah, exactly.

Alex Banayan

But my dad loved that shit. And I remember just going to a movie one night with him.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Alex Banayan

to have been able to do.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, speaking of starting next chapters, what were you most afraid of during that time?

Alex Banayan

Alright. Woof!

Alex Banayan

unconsciously, not a conscious thought, but I think if I had to go back deep and pull back the layers, if I had to give words to the fear, it's I won't be okay.

Alex Banayan

I won't be, I won't be okay.

Alex Banayan

You know, the fear of losing a parent or someone you love that's close to you that has been an attachment in your life, whether it's been a comfortable attachment, a chaotic attachment, it's been an attachment in your life. And especially the first time, this was the first time I was really losing someone that close to me. The fear just has its hands around your neck.

Alex Banayan

and it feels like everything's falling apart. And I wished, and maybe I don't wish, but I would, you know, there's some movies where the person has cancer and all the family's like sitting around a circle playing the guitar, going through old photos together, and it's like this kumbaya, and this was not that. It was kicking and screaming to the end.

And...

Alex Banayan

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Hmm.

Alex Banayan

Yeah, it's easy to reflect and have some insight on my fears and hindsight at the time. You're just trying to keep your head.

And those of you who are going through it, because I know there's a lot of people going through it right now, it's okay, one day at a time, keep your head above the water, one day at a time. The water will recede. You will be able to stand on your feet again. You will be able to pick up the pieces. Things do come back together. Just not on your own time.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, speaking of things coming back together, what have the last couple of years been like after all this tragedy? Like how did you put the pieces back together of your life? Or is that something that's still kind of a work in progress?

Alex Banayan

Hmm.

Alex Banayan

Yeah, of course it's still a work in progress. You know, lots of lots of therapy, lots of support groups, lots of prayer and meditation.

Something that has changed, which I'm really grateful for, is my whole family, like the nuclear family, mom, sisters, brother-in-law, have become very intentional the past year that like.

Yes, there's a time and a place for the healing and the reconciliation of the soul, but the resurrection of the soul to bring back the part of you that feels that died.

you need to work on that too. And that's fun. Like that, not it is fun, but the thing that you're trying to resurrect is that sense of joy and feeling alive again.

And.

Alex Banayan

That takes just as, it's in a weird way. It was easier for us to go to therapy sessions every week than it was to plan family picnics, playing tennis together, picking up new hobbies. But now we're a fucking fun machine. My sisters are taking poetry classes and knitting classes and this, that, and like, you know, we're doing frisbee golf and we're doing tennis together this weekend and.

We're doing Sunday brunch by the ocean. And like, that takes work too to switch into that gear. And I actually think it's a part of the grieving process that isn't talked about, which is.

learning how to live again. And not just like survive, but really live. You know, there's a great quote by Maya Angelou that says, life loves those who dare to live it.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Alex Banayan

and learning how to dare to live life has been a lot of the past year for me.

Srini Rao

Hmm. So I want to finish with talking about, uh, your experiences writing the book, particularly with the people that you met during that time, because you were able to somehow get your foot in the door to talk to, you know, cultural icons. We're talking Steven Spielberg, Bill Gates, like people that everybody listening to this has heard of. I'm not as interested in what you learned from them because we talked about that last time. But.

I'm really curious what you've changed your mind about when it comes to success after losing a parent at such a young age and getting to see sort of cultural icons up close.

Alex Banayan

Mmm.

Alex Banayan

Ooh, that's a good one.

Alex Banayan

Ooh, wow.

Now you're asking me to take years of thinking and put it into some words right now. So let me...

Srini Rao

I've been known to do that to people from time to time.

Alex Banayan

Okay, I've learned two big things. Number one is

Alex Banayan

I was obsessed with external success for reasons I didn't understand at the time.

Alex Banayan

And that's okay. There's no regret or remorse or guilt around it. It's just a realization. You know, when you have, you know, essentially the premise of the third door is me as an 18 year old from my dorm room, dreaming up the, you know, like you said, the people I dreamed of learning from, you know, Bill Gates for business, Lady Gaga for music, Jane Goodall for science, My Angel of Approach. You're making that list and sort of tracking them down and learning from them and putting it all together. There's a special kind of something.

that makes someone want to do that.

Alex Banayan

I learned a lot about myself, that there is a part of me that really...

Since talking about implicit messages from childhood, specialness was a really big thing ingrained in me, like the need to be special. Sure enough, essentially, the book talks about success, but really, at that time in my life as an 18-year-old, these are the people I deemed the most special.

Alex Banayan

and I wanted to learn how they did it.

And I'm trying to, with a lot of my inner work right now, reconcile and renegotiate with myself the meaning of that word special.

So that's a big thing. Another big realization that I've had the past few years is that most people, myself included, think they care about success. Think they care about their goals. But in reality, you know, what happens when you achieve a big goal? A couple weeks later, what do you think? What's next? What's next? If you succeed, you think, how do I do it better? If you fail, you think, how do I do it better?

Srini Rao

What's the next one? Yep.

Alex Banayan

And actually there's something amazing about, you know, since The Third Door came out three years ago, I've been lucky enough to be able to travel the world and see all different cultures how they approach success. Because when you're doing a book, you know, a book event for a book like The Third Door, the people who come are not your average people. They're people who sort of have this similar personal growth, personal development edge.

And what I've realized is that it's not success people are looking for, it's continued growth.

Because if it really was a singular place that people were looking for, people would stop after they achieved whatever their first big goal was.

Alex Banayan

but it's this sense of continued growth, whether we know it or not, that we yearn for the most. And a lot of my research the past few years has been shifting from, because the first, I would say the third door is a big thesis on how do you sort of break through the impenetrable walls to achieve your big goal. Whatever that is. My research the past few years has been much more focused on

How do you cultivate the soil so growth just happens naturally? What tools and what mindsets and what frameworks cultivate continued growth, no matter where in your career you are or what stage in life you're in? So that's been a big epiphany there too. And I'll say the third big epiphany and the last one I'll share is that I used to think I had a problem.

You know, the third door starts off with me lying on my dormer bed, staring up at the ceiling, going through this, what do I want to do with my life crisis?

Alex Banayan

And surprise, I actually went through it again the past couple years again. I thought it was sort of like you do it once in life, you figure out your path, and you move forward. But I once... Do you remember Geek Squad? Yeah, I remember I once, for the third door, was talking to the founder of Geek Squad, and he said something I'll remember for my whole life. He said, If you're not going through the what I want to do with my life crisis every 10 years, you're not living.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Alex Banayan

And that like always stayed with me. And essentially what he's getting at is this phenomenon that I've been observing, which is we all, whether we know it or not, have these periods in our life. And I think a lot of people are going through it right now particularly, where your stomach is turning, you feel a tug of war inside of yourself, your sort of inner check engine light is on.

And naturally, if you're anything like me, my first instinct when I feel that tossing and turning in my stomach, I think, what the hell is wrong with me? Why aren't I grateful for what I have? Why aren't I content? Will nothing satisfy me? Why can't I just be content like everyone else?

But it's actually taken me a lot of research and particularly a lot of research into the very renowned psychiatrist, Victor Frankl, to realize that inner tension that you're feeling is actually, in the words of, you know, Dr. Victor Frankl, essential to your mental health. Why? Because that inner tension is the seed for change pushing you towards a life of deeper meaning.

that inner tension is the seed for change pushing you toward a life of deeper meaning. So as soon as we start seeing these inner tensions as a positive momentum, that while they're uncomfortable, I'm not saying they're comfortable. So although they're uncomfortable, it's actually a healthy discomfort. It's a healthy distress. It's what's needed to us to realize.

our greater potential.

Srini Rao

Wow. Well, I have one last question for you, which I know you've heard me ask before, since you were here before. What do you think it is to make somebody or something unmistakable?

Alex Banayan

I'll tell you the first thing that just came to me right now, which are words that Quincy Jones shared. I'm not rehashing it for the sake of rehashing it, but it just... I've almost adopted it as my own mantra. And something Quincy shared was that the number one thing he teaches, all the creatives he mentors, is know yourself and love yourself. That's it.

Know yourself and love yourself and everything takes care of itself.

And I've been trying to practice that in my life, and I think he's right.

Srini Rao

Wow, I gotta say Alex, this is probably the best conversation I've had this year so far.

Alex Banayan

That means a lot, man. Thank you. The feeling's mutual.

Srini Rao

Yeah. I can't thank you enough for coming back and sharing all the things that you've learned over the past couple of years, and your insights and your wisdom with our listeners. Where can people learn more about you, your work, your books, and everything else that you're up to?

Alex Banayan

I appreciate that man. Um, yeah, you know, I live digitally, uh, just at the handle, you know, at Alex Benayan, my full name on Instagram and Twitter. Um, and if this conversation resonated with anyone, if you sort of...

vibe with this kind of thinking. You know, the third door is available wherever you like to get your books, whether that's Amazon or Barnes & Noble, or if you like audio, it's on Audible, and I read the audio book, which was a lot of fun. And if you end up getting the book because of this conversation, definitely let me know on Instagram or Twitter so I can say thank you.

Srini Rao

Amazing. And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.