Andrew Thorp King | Turning Failure into Fuel for for Success

Srini Rao: Andy, welcome to the unmistakable creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Andrew Thorp King: Serene, it's an honor and a pleasure to to chat with you today. Very excited to be here. Yeah. It is my pleasure to have you

Srini Rao: here. So I actually know about you because you have been a client of mine. You have a book out that I, I helped you kind of market and promote and you know, I took a liking to you and I thought, you know, the funny enough, your PR agency did a pretty good job pitching you and most PR agencies do a shit job pitching us.

But you know, I was really fortunate to be able to get early access to the book as well as read it in detail. So before we get into the book, I want you to start by asking you what religious or spiritual beliefs were you raised with and how did that end up impacting what you've ended up

Andrew Thorp King: doing with your life?

Career. Very good question. You're starting off with the deep ones. Yeah. So, you know, definitely was from like a Protestant Christian framework. My old man is a preacher. I got, I got a chapter in the book called Punk Rock, Son of a Preacher Man, where I kind of talk about some of those dynamics, particularly in terms of like my view of the spirituality of money, which is differs from my parental view or the view that I grew up with.

And a lot of other lessons I've learned from, you know, I talk about tragic moral choice in the book, which is the concept of you know, life throws at you sometimes decisions where there's no good option. There's just least worst, worst options. through the importance of that and examples of that in the book.

But yeah, so that's the framework I grew up in and I didn't take to it, you know, immediately. And over time, you know, I kind of developed my own kind of sense of the divine and personal relationship with God through a variety of kind of existential exploration and events in my life. And I think one of the main ones really is just my, my affinity Deep connection to, and the power I draw from hardcore punk rock music.

And the the, the guy who wrote the forward to the book, John Joseph, the singer for the legendary band, the Cro Mags, he's really big in the, in the vegan community, he's a triathlete and author of many books frequent guest on Joe Rogan. He wrote the forward to the book and he's a Hare Krishna devotee.

And he was probably one of my earliest spiritual influences along with. The Hare Krishna strain within the hardcore punk rock. So punk rock is generally, you know, seen as nihilistic, rebellious, all of those things, that's all there. I mean, punk rock is everything from the profound to the profane and on the profound end of the spectrum, hardcore punk rock, which is different than normal punk rock.

It's a little more street wise, a little more chorus oriented and themic, and there was many different ideologies that kind of permeated the hardcore punk rock scene, particularly in the New York scene. And Hare Krishna and Straight Edge Philosophy, which is abstinence from drugs and alcohol. That was one of them.

And John Joseph, his band, The Chrome Mags, and particularly his own kind of personal story and interviews, the way he, he found his spirituality really influenced me along with the band Shelter, which is funded by Raghunath Kapoor, who runs the Wisdom of the Sages podcast. And I think it's this early Eastern influences really kind of spoke to me about non attachment yet at the same time, just like John Joseph, who found his Hare Krishna faith through being influenced through his friendship with HR, the singer for the legendary Rastafarian hardcore, the hardcore band, the Bad Brains.

You know, I actually still applied it through the framework of Christianity. With still like a deep reverence for you know, the, the wisdom expressions of other faiths and even non faith expressions like Stoicism. But for me, it's still kind of the, the framework of Christianity, but without, without an organized lens.

Like I'm not a churchgoer. I would say it's contemplative Christianity is one of the terms I would probably apply to it where it is more of a personal thing. I mean, not quite monk like but you know, more. In terms of introspection and reflection and a direct sense of the empowering dynamic of the divine within.

You know, given that your dad

Srini Rao: was a preacher, the fact that you didn't take to it, how did that impact your relationship

Andrew Thorp King: with him? Well, I would say there was probably times where he just didn't understand what planet I came from, right? I mean, you know, like we're very, very different, you know, no, I'm covered in tattoos.

I listened to loud, crazy music. I'm very expressive. I'm an entrepreneur. I don't take the safe route. Hence failure. Rule number two, nothing is safe. I, you know, I smoke cigars avidly you know, I'm a big fan of. of bourbon and I drink pretty frequently, although not a lot more like the Winston Churchill approach where I get more out of alcohol than he gets out of me.

So there's a lot of lifestyle differentials there. And certainly I didn't, I didn't approach any sort of religious framework in any structured way. So that, that was not something that was normal to him, right? Given his whole profession, profession was around trying to galvanize people to do just that.

And that just never connected with me. It just always seemed. too contrived too surface like, not unvarnished enough, not really allowing for the full expression of the imperfection of the human condition to really express itself and dig deep in kind of a wabi sabi kind of way. So there was maybe not friction, but just disconnects.

But in the end, he really embraces who I am, respects me, and you know, You know, certainly tolerant, if not a cheerleader for me being my authentic self, which is a big theme of the book. I don't think that I would be who I am had I not kind of had this hands off green light from my parents. You know,

Srini Rao: I think that the sort of conflict between your own values and those that you are raised with is something that's common with so many people.

And, you know, I wonder how people find it within themselves to actually be honest about what they really value versus the ones that they have been, you know, programmed to adopt. Like, what does that

take?

Andrew Thorp King: I mean, I think that's a core theme of the book, right? Like is, is finding that internal spirit voice, whatever you recognize that as, you can recognize it as some iteration of divine whispering.

You could recognize it as just conscious, you could recognize it as, you know, truly understanding your heart and. And taking in the data of the world and filtering it through your own internal locus of control. But having that intentional surplus of solitude in your life to do that deep work and not be afraid or not flinch when it gets really, really uncomfortable when you're examining yourself.

You know, kind of the approach of, you know, author James Hollis with living an examined life. I think it starts there. And when, and when you start from that framework. You can move forward in life and allow the spiritual to lead the physical in the same way that the Maharal of Prague used to describe the ancient, maybe not ancient, but the the old Jewish mystic that I write about in the book.

And I think that has always been what I come back to when I feel like I'm getting misaligned, potentially adrifting from the ever evolving authentic self, I always go back to deep solitude. Whether it's to hear the muse for creative pursuits or for you know context of the decision You know, it's meditation, it's solitude, it's prayer, it's taking long walks, connecting with nature, which as Rabbi Mordecai Finley would call is a key garment of God, which to me is very important, or whether it's just relaxing in my hot tub, smoking a cigar or lifting weights and, and listen to loud, fast music.

Those times, those times is where I really, you know align, realign with my authentic self after the world sometimes bounces into us and, and starts to, starts to effectuate drifts at certain inflection points. And for me, that has always been the thing that allows me to quiet the noise of the world, quiet the opinions of the world, quiet the expectations of the world and have more of a, a vertical channel with my sense of the divine, eschewing the horizontal messaging, be it religious or non religious, of the world that might interfere with my own response to truth.

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Andrew Thorp King: yet?

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Explore more at ikea usa. com. Again, that's ikea usa. com. Walk me through the trajectory that eventually led to you writing this book.

Andrew Thorp King: Yeah. So I, it was 2013, towards the tail end of 2013. It was literally, like, probably to the, to the day, I think it was June 16th. 2013. So how many years that is? That's what, 10 years ago tomorrow, Father's Day or not Father's Day.

Yeah, it was Father's Day. It was June 16th. That was Father's Day back then, right? I think it was. And I was at the beach with my then ex wife and my marriage was not doing well. I was just going through a business divorce with a key partner in the online lending business I was in that had caused a lot of turbulence in, in, in my life.

My personal, you know, financial framework was now having to be rearranged. That was a core part of my income. I still had other income streams, but I had to rethink about my direction and how I was going to reorganize the composite of my portfolio pursuits. And I was thinking about all the off road entrepreneurial adventuring I had done throughout my twenties and thirties from owning.

Record labels from owning a fitness center, owning online lending companies and creative pursuits, like writing a spy novel, doing a bodybuilding competition, all these things. And think about what was it that kept me going through hardships, failures, detours unexpected obstacles. How did I continue to view the obstacle as the way as Ryan Holliday would put it, right?

What, what, what was that juice? What was that you know, endorphin of the spirit and what it was, was enthusiasm. So I thought about the Winston Churchill quote, which was. You know, success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. And that quote just hit me so deeply because it was just so true.

I just had this animating spirit within me this enthusiasm that literally nothing in the material world nothing in the in the you know, the the chaos of unexpected circumstances was going to stop me from aligning with my authentic self and chasing after anything that burned deeply within me so that I could eliminate future regret.

Whether it worked out or not, if I chase what burned deep in me I would not have regret. And I can say that's really the case today. Something burns within me. I get a vision for something in my life. I'm going to go after it. You know, I'm going to try to do it as safely as possible yet knowing, value rule number two, nothing is safe and create a plan with an intent to iterate.

And so I was on this beach and, and, and that quote struck me and I was also listening to the song. A playlist song, Ace of Spades by Motorhead Hard Times by the Cro Mags and that really those kind of like ended up being in the stew, the ingredients of my initial notes back then. And then it was 2014 and I had my, my life had rearranged and it was actually a time there,

,

right where I I split from my ex wife and so I had these twin failures in the business divorce and a marital divorce.

All of a sudden, after being long married and long, you know, self employed entrepreneur, all of a sudden I found myself you know, living in a hotel room, no no office to go to by day, no home to go to by night, temporarily separated from a daily sense with my children. And there was this song by the, the hardcore metal band Hatebreed called Divinity of Purpose that really struck me.

And that song, the message of that song, I'll read some of the lyrics here just to get a sense. So the lyrics go, I felt the pain of discipline was less than that of regret, lifted one foot from the grave when the purpose showed its face. And when the skies crashed down upon me, I looked for someone by my side.

You were there when no one else was. You showed me what's born doesn't always die. The divinity of purpose. So the divinity of purpose showed up for me, right? I was in this empty failure space. Where I chose to leverage chaos as an idea engine. And instead of wallowing in despair or alcoholism or whatever else, you know, in that hotel room, I had, you know, kind of five new threads that were born to reorganize my composite of pursuits.

And one of them was I use my skills from the online lending business and began doing consulting work in that space and very quickly replaced that income from consulting that led into a partnership for a proper lead generation business that became pretty lucrative. I also sharpened up my resume and.

able to transition from the online lending space into corporate commercial banking in the FinTech space, which, you know, was almost akin to like going from a porn star to a regular actor. So it was kind of a big deal. And then I also you know, finished my first spot, my first book, my spy novel, Blaze Operation Persian Trinity.

And I resurrected my record labels, Sailor's Brave Records, Release Records, great like Psycho Belly bands like Creepshow, The Coughin Cats, classic boy bands like The Business, and so resurrected that asset. And that's when I began writing Failure Rules in earnest. And another, a couple key pieces of influence there is, were two books.

It was James Altucher's Choose Yourself and Shreeni Rao, The Art of Being Unmistakable. I read those two books. In the corporate break room, my first couple of months working in the fintech space where I was feeling very kind of uncomfortable in the space, you know, I had long kind of been my own boss and was able to show my tattoos and, you know, speak with my own kind of aggressive tone, just being who I am, kind of a hard charger and all of a sudden I had to like, you know, kind of revise that I had to speak more, you know, clipperly and I had to, you know, dress differently.

And reading those two books just gave me so much perspective on that journey and fed into the inspiration to tailor all these stories I have in Failure Rules. I mean, hence you're, you're featured in the book, along with some quotes from Altucher and a host of other virtual mentors. I mean, everybody from legendary boxer Jack Johnson, the comedian Rodney Dangerfield, author of Lincoln Lawyer and Boss, Michael Connolly, to Punk rock icon, Henry Rollins to billionaire Sarah Blakely.

So that's where it started. It took about seven years to iterate and finally get the final product. Like Hemingway said, all first drafts are shit. And towards the end, probably got to the point where I was ready to hand it over to Scribe Media and their editing team to, you know, turn good into what I think is.

As great as it was going to be.

Srini Rao: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because the amount of people who tell me stories like this about that book always strikes me and I'm always like, it's always shocking to me. It's like, wow, what is it about that book that just, you know, struck a chord? Because it's so far in my history that I kind of forget that I mean, this

Andrew Thorp King: book would not have been written in the way that it was written without me having read your book that led me down a rabbit hole.

Very similar books. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just your story about. You know, when you were feeling kind of writhing uncomfortably job hopping and tech jobs and, and you had that one project where you, you know, you put a lot of effort into it and you kind of had some care on it. And all of a sudden they pulled the project before it's finished from you.

And, and, and the IBS that you experienced and the way you just didn't feel like you fit in and it was corporate misfit thing. I really related to that. And then, you know, hearing about how you kind of did it. Took a, took a radical turn and invoke your love of, of surfing and turn that into somewhat of a spiritual metaphor for the way you reshaped your life and crafted your brand with the podcast and everything else.

But that whole journey to me is wildly inspiring and in my own way, I've probably replicated that in some ways in what I call the failure verse or universal creating around failure rules and its message. The tentacles are building out of that. Well,

Srini Rao: you know, you said something that struck me about going from failure to failure with enthusiasm and, you know, like one thing I wonder is why people lose their enthusiasm after failure.

Cause like, I can honestly tell you, I don't go from failure to failure with enthusiasm. You know, like, I would be full of shit if I told you that I did. So that's one thing. But the other thing I wonder about is, you know, divorce in particular, because I've had one very, very close friend get divorced and he's pretty young when it happened.

He's one of my best friends. And you know, the thing that I realized in talking to him and I've thought about this a lot, I said, that's got to be so disorienting, particularly when, you know, you're under 30. Like, the way, you know, I'm kind of paraphrasing, you know, what he said and kind of the experience I had just observing him, it was kind of like, you have this vision for a future that seems inherent, like quite certain, and it vanishes before your eyes.

And

Andrew Thorp King: I'd

Srini Rao: imagine that's got to be incredibly disorienting, like, in a way that, you know, most people can't really comprehend. Like, I don't think I'll ever understand. You know, no matter how much time I've spent with him, what that was like and how painful

Andrew Thorp King: it really was. Yeah. And particularly, you know, when there's children involved the children at the time you know, and I probably had, you know naively set up or we had set up the marriage with, you know, an imbalance and we both drifted off where we less focused on our marriage and I focused on earning and she focused on raising the children and that divide, you know, kind of began and we just kind of drifted apart.

You know, and then there was the turbulence of certain circumstances, exacerbated things, but you're right. You know, you have this vision where it's, you know, forever, you know till, till death do we part. Right. And I think marriage is an ideal. And for those that are able to live up to that ideal and maintain it, and not just with the optics of happiness, but with true happiness behind closed doors, that's one of the most amazing thing ever, ever.

And we shouldn't give up on trying to seek that out and, and maintain that if we're in a marriage. But at the same time we live in an imperfect, broken world. And when marriages do not succeed, the reality is that doesn't mean your life is over and life can get. Immensely better if you, you know approach that failure with, with with an open mind, you know, I, I, I talk about in the book, you know you know, when you hit a rock you know, let it push you into a new stream and don't.

Constantly hold on to that rock, trying to not let it move you. Like keep going to the new stream and embrace that and look for the new opportunity in that chaos, you know, and I chose to do that. And that was kind of a new lesson. Sure. There was a lot of grief, a lot of pain. But the rebirth was phenomenal.

I mean, it was just like failure. Well, number one, failure purifies the Phoenix must burn to emerge, you know, like I burn off old, you know, faulty thinking, old thinking died, new thinking began. I was able to see myself in a wider way. I really had a growth spurt, spurt from lots of reading and personal development and my emotional intelligence increased, which helped me in future relationships.

And so in some ways it was the best thing that ever happened to me, even though it was unfortunate. The ideal would have been better, but in absence of the ideal. It was, it was an amazing trigger for the next chapter in my life, which, you know, resulted in many ways in this book among other things.

Srini Rao: I, I appreciate that you would, you actually said that the ideal would have been better because I think that it's so easy to just gloss over things like that and say, Oh yeah, you know, like we tend to be sort of Pollyannish, I think when we, we think about, you know, these things. Because I always say, like, it's a lot easier to write these things than it is to live them.

Like, if I could live the advice that I give, it would be a much easier way to live. But one of the things you say is that the purification of failure never feels like a blessing in the heart of it, heat of its arrival. Sometimes what feels like the worst thing that has ever happened to you can lead to the best results.

And, you know, I think that every one of us understands that. But in the moment when it happens, it's really hard to see that. I remember Greg Hartle, excuse me, telling me, he said, you know, like when you have a hardship in your life, it feels like the worst thing in the world because it's happening to you.

And it's funny because like, you know, if the same thing is happening to a friend, you somehow are able to be incredibly objective. But when it's happening to you, all objectivity kind of goes out the window.

Andrew Thorp King: Yeah. You get the amygdala hijack and your emotions are heightened and, you know, I talk about in the book about trying to step outside of the chaos and, you know, invoke your You know observational objective self versus your participated, participating emotional self.

And it's very, very difficult. Hence the tagline after it sucks, failure rules, right? Then that's the tagline of the book for a reason, because it still sucks in the heat of the moment. It sucks. Right. And you know, that's that quote really is for, is from Thomas Smallwood, the professional bowler from which the the TV show Smallwood.

Was made where comedian Pete Holmes played, played Smallwood, but Smallwood, he was working at the the G GM plant, or no, it was, I think it was the, it was a Ford plant and in Michigan, he was working the line and he got laid off blue collar guy. And in that failure space.

You know, he tapped into his internal spirit voice and this desire to really want to be a bowler. And while still trying to be practical and find other work, he also scraped off 1, 500, entered some sort of bowling tournament. I don't remember the caliber or the name but long story short and ended up propelling him.

To you know, become a professional bowler. And the day before he was about to be on ESPN for the first time bowling, he gets a call back from the foreplant, you know, asking him to come back to work. And he's like, nah, I don't need the job anymore, but if you want to watch me on ESPN tomorrow, go ahead and do that.

And so that quote was from him, like, you know you know, getting laid off was. One of the worst things that happened to him, but led to the best results. I, I had a similar experience. Why I write about that.

dad, not the car again.

Srini Rao: No. Happens all the time with old Betsy. Have you checked out

Andrew Thorp King: Carvana yet? They have thousands of cars for under $20,000.

Srini Rao: But did those

Andrew Thorp King: thousands of cars have personality like old Betsy Betsy's

Srini Rao: held together

Andrew Thorp King: by Tate and their raccoons living in the engine? It's a

Srini Rao: family car. There are flames on the hood.

Ah, custom paint job. No, dad, the car's on fire. How many cars did

Andrew Thorp King: you say Carvana had? Visit carvana. com to shop thousands of cars for under 20, 000. We'll drive you happy at Carvana.

Srini Rao: Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, I know you talk about this later on. The thing is that so many people, I see this happen with two groups of people, like those who let experiences and hardships inform them.

And then there are those who let them define them. And, you know, like I realized that even saying one or the other is worse is actually incredibly nuanced because if it defines you, we could go to like, you know, Lee Iacocca by getting fired from, you know, Ford. defined his, you know, sort of vengeance to take Chrysler to what it was you know, and you'll have to fact check me on that.

But overall, I don't feel like being defined by hardship is a good thing in general. I think there

,

are exceptions to that. In your mind, what is it that separates the people who let these moments define them and basically determine how they live the rest of their lives versus the ones who are informed

Andrew Thorp King: by them?

I think a lot of it is, is. just unnecessary shame that they attach to failure events that are just events. I mean, even if they're caused by some gap in decision making or, or some, you know, failure of action versus something that you just experienced by living in, you know, in, in an unstable world and being part of the human condition, even then, like, it's just failure events.

You can't get over them. You can learn from them. And the key is to try to do that, right. And try to move forward and reinvent yourself appropriately take the good stuff from the rubble and magnify it and move forward in a new way. And, you know, that has to be intentional, I think, or it takes a certain type of spirit to be able to do that and do that in a radical way particularly with really radical failures.

And that is kind of the, the, the, the, the message of the book, right, is. Don't define yourself by your failure events. Failure rule number five is you are not your failures. Detach from the optics of failure. And instead try to find a way to overcome and then move forward and define yourself by your ability to overcome.

Your ability to respond. Objectively and creatively to, to the things that happened to you and to the things that happened in your life as a result of, you know, actions that you might have had that might've been led to your failures that we shouldn't do, you know? Well, let's talk about this idea

Srini Rao: of safety because you say the world is inherently unsafe.

Jobs, industries, economies, relationships, and physical health are all inherently unsafe. Therefore, meaning, fulfillment, survival, and prosperity can be found in holding tight to internal attachments and holding loose to that which is attached to the unsafe external world. Non attachment to this unsafe world enables nimble reinvention.

It allows a path toward being content in all circumstances. It produces the freedom for one to live, to win in an unsafe world in spite of being Having been born to lose now, the thing that strikes me about that is that I feel like so many people are addicted to this idea of safety, even though it's like a complete illusion, like I remember a friend telling me once that security was probably the greatest illusion of all that we all buy into, and that always stayed with me.

It's like safety, security, and yet these are the very things that keep people these illusory constructs that keep people from you. going out and doing things that they want to do because you say, you know, because nothing is safe. Anyway, it behooves you to follow pursuits worthy of your life. And yet that's exactly the reason people don't is because they think that there is such thing

Andrew Thorp King: as safety.

Yeah. And that, that, that phrase pursuits worthy of her life. I mean, I got that from you. I mean, that, that subtly plagiarized from you, that concept, at least like that lonely struck me when I read you talking about. You know, going into pursuits worthy of your life, right? And this doesn't mean that we embrace this notion of failure porn, where we glorify failures, act like degrade and live unnecessarily recklessly.

I mean, obviously that's stupid, right? You want to avoid failure as much as possible. I mean, that's the self evident failure rule is avoid it as much as possible. But if you're doing difficult things, if you're doing things that are unorthodox, and you're doing things that are truly worthy of your life, chances are you're going to, you're going to run into failures or obstacles and hard times, potentially more frequently with, with you know, with more acuteness.

So, You know, it's just, I think of people who have maybe the optics of a safe life, you know, they have kind of, you know, a good job, they have the family life, they've all like the structure that makes them kind of immune from reflexive social criticism or you know, that type of you know, of being looked at as someone who's a failure, right.

And, you know, I think that there is that risk there. Where is it really safe? Because if you're thinking about safety, there's different types of safety. There's material safety, there's financial safety, but then there's also you know, the risk of dying inside the risk of the fire going outside, the risk of having no fire, living a fireless life you know, the risk of drifting into.

You know, like what Thoreau talked about, which is, you know living a quiet life of desperation. And that's not safe to me. So all the external stuff can be safe, but if your internal life, you know, if you don't have something that lights you up, that makes you feel like you're truly chasing after you know, a purpose or multiple purposes that are uniquely yours to chase after in the way that you chase after them, I really think you're not safe no matter how stable your life may be.

You know, it kind of goes back to your recent guests. I think I'm saying that right, where she talked about the danger of valorizing stability and safety, right? I mean, you know, I think that's a real issue. And I think self examined persons you know, are aware of that and understand that and then seek to take calculated risks in their life to invoke that fire inside to try to align.

Their lives with meaning and then even more challenging align, align meaning with money. Yeah.

Srini Rao: Talk to me about this portfolio pursuits mindset. Like I understand that because I've heard different variations of that on the show. And you know, like I've heard it in the context of relationships, I've heard it in the context of work.

Give us an overview of what that

Andrew Thorp King: really is. Yeah. So I think the anchor quote I use in that chapter is from Gene Simmons from the rock bank kiss where, you know, he says, it's better to be an octopus than a fish. You know, if one tentacle is sliced off, you have seven more to swim with, right? And so we all understand, like diversification, that, that's obviously very common in the investment world.

But I don't think we think about that enough in other realms of our life, whether it be just, not just investment diversification, but income diversification. And even more importantly and more I think fulfilling pursuit diversification, right? We over identify with one pursuit or one passion as meaning starts to diminish or money does not return.

If it's a monetized pursuit in any one of those efforts, you know, we kind of lose that fulfillment overall. But if you have three, four, five different pursuits, monetized or not, and you have this diverse life. Well, you're not over identifying with any one pursuits or one interest or one, one business, but you softly identify with still passionate about each one still in earnest, but you can adjust that composite over time.

So, you know, for example, like, you know, right now I maybe have like, you know, three or three different monetized pursuits my, my life in, in banking and finance. My life in music, running record labels, and then everything I'm doing with Failure Rules and the clothing company I created adjacent to Failure Rules, So Long Fire Supply Company, which echoes the themes of the book.

They all give me different percentages and degrees of either money or meaning. Some are very, very high in money, still have some meaning, but lower percentage. Some are very, very high in meaning, but very low, low in money. But overall, the composite, the portfolio pursuits. So brings me as much as possible to an aggregate a hundred percent fulfillment in both those buckets.

And that has been, you know, an approach, a strategy for me that has just really allowed me to live life to the fullest. Not just, you know, spiritually, you know, emotionally, artistically. Like creatively, but financially as well. And so like, that's kind of what that whole concept is about is having a portfolio pursuits mentality.

Srini Rao: Well, speaking of money, let's, let's talk about money in particular. And you say that money is spiritual, that money is an elusive, versatile tool loaded with spiritual power. If misunderstood, it can fuel envy and greed and ultimately the failure of self inflicted emptiness. But if used properly, it can be a multiplier of blessings and enabling thank you note that can help lift valued recipients up and out of their failure valleys.

Talk to me about your own relationship with money. I mean, you've worked in finance and you know, like you didn't bat an eyelash when I asked you to pay, you know, what I did for my coaching. So,

Andrew Thorp King: yeah. So, I mean, I've, I've, I've lost it all, gained it all, lost it all, gained it all on a good stretch now for a long period of time of flourishing, but all informed by having hit rock bottom several times.

So I hold money loosely, but I also try to treat it wisely. And I also make sure I balance it against meeting which goes back to the portfolio pursuits mentality, but I do view money. I think, I think the reviling money or worshiping money is dangerous, right? Those extreme edge cases, envy and greed, right?

Either one of those, I think they're malevolent twin siblings. And, and they de spiritualize money. They take the power and the goodness out of money. I mean, money in itself is an agnostic tool, but it has, in my view, that spiritual benevolent power. And I've seen it in my own life. When I was literally at a time in my life where I was on food stamps I ended up befriending a lot of high net worth entrepreneurs.

And doctors and lawyers that I networked with through a high end gym that I went to in Ohio, as well as people in the cigar lounge, and the generosity, both in knowledge transfer and referrals and embracing me based on my ideas, not based on like my, my socioeconomic status at the time, which is like Chris Gardner, author of Persuade Your Happiness, called placism.

Like they were not, they did not have a placism kind of attitude towards me. And You know, it really ended up being that you know, the opportunities I got and, and, and the financial rewards that happened through that networking really was to me like this powerful tool and that we're not stuck in just these small kind of defined lanes financially.

If we view money in a creative wide way and view it as a spiritual tool, where it's really. You know, it's placed value is measured thankfulness. We go about placing our value one transaction at a time, you know, throughout our life. You know, I have this example in the book about going to a car wash. I worked at a car wash when I was younger.

And I would say that that was more important to me than my college education was working with my glove car wash. The lessons I learned there you know, empathy with co workers to struggle with addictions to sales to grit and hard work and having no lunch break in the middle of February, frozen knuckles you know, scrubbing, scrubbing wheels.

And you know, so years later I go back to the same car wash and then I got off early for work that day to go there to get my favorite services, a 25 service. And this guy, his name was Prince. Foddiness for a prince of purple rain aside. I really liked the guy. He was just working with enthusiasm You know, like his high energy really wanted to please me, you know?

And I was like, you know what, I'll be back. I'm going to go to the ATM to get some money for a tip. I come back, it's after five. He's still working on my vehicle very diligently. And I just had this like swelling of gratitude within me. And I just had this spontaneous, like desire to want to give him a big tip.

Now I'm not trying to brag about me being a good giver. I actually suck at giving. Although I'm a big tipper normally, but I'm not like some great, generous giver all the time. Like I'm not consistent that way. So this isn't about exalting me, but it's just, it illustrates the concept that you know, money is, is a, is a thank you note.

And so, you know, I gave him a hundred dollar tip that day just cause I was just so impressed with his attitude, the way he was working on my vehicle. And so I think it's like the reviewing money through that lens that it's a, it's a, it's a symbolic kind of sacrament of gratitude. Yeah. You know, like

Srini Rao: one thing that I realized sort of over the last 10 years is that, you know, it's easy to be generous when it's easy and it's hard, you know, when it's not.

But the funny thing is, if you're generous when it's not easy. For some reason that tends to multiply like I, you know, I think I wrote this story on Facebook once. It was 2018. I had a really rough year. Like my speaking engagements dried up. I literally made no money that year. Like I remember my accountant was looking through our finances.

He's like, how did you even like pay rent and survive? I was like, I saved all my money from the year before. Because my speaking agent told me put aside 50% from everything you make because it's going to slow down. Like, and when it does, people get a rude awakening. Because like you start making a lot of money all at once when you start doing public speaking.

And... And, you know, I was in India for a trip because we were shopping for my sister's wedding and I went to a surf camp and I had one surfboard that I brought with me and it was the only

,

surfboard I had and I was like, to replace the surfboard is going to cost me 600. And I left it for one of the kids at the surf camp.

And I came back and I think within a month that money multiplied like tenfold. And the kid who I left it for ended up winning a competition on that surfboard. And conveniently when the waves were shit when I went back, I was able to use that board. I think, I think that's just an illustration of what I'm talking about, the spirituality of money.

Andrew Thorp King: You get what you give, you know, I have a chapter titled that in the book as well. And it's also, I mean, it does go back to some, some like biblical concepts of, you know, if you cling to your life, you will lose it. If you lose your life, you will click, you know, if you lose your life, you will gain it.

Right. And if you're clinging and holding tightly to those types of things, you're interrupting the flow of goodness that can allow for return value to come back to you sometimes for the sole purpose for you to keep giving, you know, I mean, it's very difficult to be generous. If you haven't you know fashion your life in such a way where you can, where you can be generous and worked hard or whatever it might be.

Right. So I think that's a great example that really kind of illustrates kind of this unseen, I think energy with, with the flow of. Of money when, when, when good is behind it.

Srini Rao: Well, let's talk about this idea of building your thing one and thing two dependency failure prevention because I, I really appreciated this because it was very nuanced because I think that there is this sort of pervasive narrative in the sort of online, you know, self help world.

It's like, Oh, you know, quit your job, go change the world, live the four hour work again. Personally, I think that's all bullshit. Like I don't think it's realistic. That's it. For like the overwhelming majority of people, but so many people let that stop them. Like talk to me about that because I feel like that, you know, their friend was asking me is like, why do people quit?

And I was like, look, there are times when people should quit. It makes sense to quit. Sometimes it's anything you've talked about. But often, you know, it's not quitting because they're not going to succeed. It's quitting out of impatience or frustration or just the fact that, you know, they're not willing to make the trade offs that come with accomplishing

Andrew Thorp King: something.

Yeah. And it's, I think it depends on whether. You know, you're you're, it's like, it's like the like, like the, like the, the rat, are you, are you running from you know, the cat or you're running to the cheese and if you're just running from the cat, which might be the job you hate or your discomfort in your life, I mean, that's a good motivator, but you, you also have to be running to the cheese, the thing that you really want to go after.

And I think if you are just kind of running from the cat and just wanting to quit your job to go do something else that you think is more fulfilling, but you haven't really thought it out. I don't know that that's always a good strategy. I think it's a better strategy to find a way to reposition your perspective on whatever you're doing.

And extract value from it, even when it's very difficult to find that value and work on your attitude, what you're currently doing, find ways where to, you know develop skills within whatever you're doing that transfer and magnify and empower what you're doing outside of that job. So thing one is your enabler pursuit could be like a day job.

And thing two is whatever you're doing on the side, which more mirrors your aspirational pursuit. Your Northstar pursuit that you think represents the highest. application of your unique talent stack, you know, put out to the world. And so I, I, I go through not just the obvious examples of banging down a nine to five and side hustling something you know, that you love, but also creative examples, right?

So I think of these two brothers that I knew that I anonymize them in the book, but they were Shia Muslims from Lebanon. They came over to America and they really wanted to own their own businesses, retail businesses that to them represented the pursuit of happiness in America. Yeah. But they didn't have any seed money.

So they didn't just bang down a normal job. What they did is a very creative way to get to their, their, their North Star pursuit is their enabler was they went and worked for Disney on ice running the merch truck at all these Disney on ice events and Disney on ice paid for their lodging and all their food.

And so they were homeless. They had no expenses. They basically married to the road doing this for, I don't know, two, three years, several years. They just saved up all the cash, very sacrificial. I didn't love the job. They came back and use that money to start seeding retail businesses. And over time it grew into a portfolio retail business with a sense of running the city.

I mean, they owned a gym, cigar lounges, nightclubs, gas stations, all kinds of stuff. Right. And that was like an example of a very creative application of the Thing 1, Thing 2 dependency model. So I got your examples like that in the book as well. Well,

Srini Rao: something you said struck me in the book is the information age has created a democratization of access and reach that can uniquely enable Thing 2 dreams like never before in history.

Not only is the hold old traditional gatekeepers held being challenged and minimized, but there's a widening of alt gatekeepers emerging that are disrupting the old world notions of credentialing. I think that the credentialing thing is valid, but Cal Newport made a really interesting point when I was, you know, on his podcast, he said, democratizing access doesn't change the dynamics of winner takes all.

Andrew Thorp King: Explain that to me. Well,

Srini Rao: look, when I see articles where people who have basically, you know, been around the creator economy for, you know, a year, start talking about it as, you know, a gold mine or a gold rush, I want to give them a reality

Andrew Thorp King: check. Right. Yes. No, it's not a gold rush.

Srini Rao: It's a developing country.

It's ripe with inequality. Like, go look at Patreon and look at the income distribution. It's like, you know, basically everybody else, you know, Cal Newport and I said, he's like, basically most people make enough to buy coffee and Jordan Peterson takes the rest. Yeah. I

Andrew Thorp King: mean, I own record labels, right? So. You know, people ask me all the time, what do you think of streaming versus the old way where you had the rigid gatekeepers?

So you know, you had to get a distribution deal. They then had to convince the buyers stores put on the shelves. Then you hope that the physical CD or album sold off the shelf in three to four months before it was returned to you with exorbitant fees, right? Like that model was very rigid. It was very difficult.

Now you have, you know, D to C direct consumer, right? The streaming. And artists can put their music up and get it right out to the world without a record label, although there's still lots of value for record labels for certain, for certain bands. But, you know, to me, streaming kind of represents that, right?

They pay less per stream but on the aggregate, the exponentiality of streaming, I still think it's better. And it is, it's wider access. But now, you know, you still have, have to fight harder to get attention because before in the old days where you just had, you know, minimal amount of people chosen by the gatekeepers, you had to hire, you know.

Chance of succeeding if you were chosen, whereas now, you know, it's a street fight that's just widened by the the accent.

Srini Rao: Well, personally, what I think is that it raises the bar. It basically means that you have to bring it like there's no, there's no room for mediocrity.

Andrew Thorp King: Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, You know, that's kind of one of the reasons that I chose to work with scribe media, because I knew that I would get a professional production of the book, a professional approach to separate it from those that self published without utilizing such an agency or structure.

Right. But even that, you know, took money, but so yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah, I mean, I can tell you from

Srini Rao: having self published a book recently, you know, the artificially intelligent creative, I like, I knew it was going to get some bad reviews and, you know, I looked at it on Amazon. I'm like, okay, well, you know, of course, sometimes like, I think there's a fine line, right?

Some people will hear that and let that be an excuse to stop them. You read the art of being unmistakable. That thing was riddled with typos. It wasn't anywhere near

Andrew Thorp King: perfect. That's why I love it was far from perfect.

Srini Rao: What it had was resonance, like that was the thing that mattered the most, which is kind of amazing because like that, of all my books, that is still by far the one that has sold the most.

And that was the one that I kind of, the irony of that book was that I, I published it because I'd given up on getting a book deal and it led

Andrew Thorp King: to the book deal. Yeah, isn't that interesting? Yeah. No, I think it's an interesting question because, you know, your other book Only Is Better Than Best. You know, from a, you know, a writing standpoint, from editing standpoint, from a structure standpoint, you know, it's arguably a better book, but the connectivity and to me, almost like the raw, like unvarnished.

punk rock essence of the first book was kind of the magic of it. I don't know that you needed to replicate that, you know but I think that

Srini Rao: you can. And that's another mistake, right? As people try to replicate the magic of the thing they did before. And that's just, you know, like Ozan Barol had a good way of putting this.

It's like, you can't copy and paste your

Andrew Thorp King: previous path to success. No, you can't. Now you have to just embrace whatever the new iteration is. That's, that's coming to you. Doesn't mean you want to have elements of the old, but if you're trying to always just apply. some stable formula, at some point that will get stale, right?

And the reader will know the consumer of whatever argument. Yeah. Well this has been fantastic, Andy. And you know what, given that you're a longtime listener, I'm very curious to see how you're going to answer this question. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

I just think it's, it's the unvarnished representation of your authentic self in the world with some application of versatility.

I think of my friend, my best friend Rami Dacko he's a Lebanese guy. He works in the cigar industry an industry that has a lot of kind of like people who are into the golf culture and that kind of thing, but he just goes out there and he's, he's access his authentic self. You know, wearing like Ramones t shirts and really eccentric braces, rigged bracelets and like pink band sneakers and talks really loud.

And, and doesn't talk very businesslike and his authentic self has resonated in that space, even though it clashes with a lot of the culture in that space. And he's been able to really just galvanize so many you know great clients and, you know, really kind of like followers, almost fans and all these cigar lounges that he does events in and it's because he is unmistakable when he walks in a room, like people stand up, they know Rami's in the room, you know?

And so I think of him, right. And so I think that's, that's a way of being that is worthy of striving for. Although it's difficult to do. Be that way a hundred percent all the time. So I think being unmistakable, similar to being authentic, it's a spectrum. As we evolve and grow, we have to integrate old ways of being in the new ways of being and strive to find out at every step what authenticity means for us.

And how, how we can be unmistakably authentic. Absolutely.

Srini Rao: Well I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your insight and wisdom with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you, your work, and the book? Yeah.

Andrew Thorp King: AndrewStorpKing. com. No E on the end of Thorpe. Are you interested in staying up to date on the latest global text trends?

The EY Tax and Law and Focus podcast series is for you. In each episode, we bring you exclusive discussions with EY professionals and independent industries thought leaders from across the globe. Together they share their insight on global tax policy and reform, disruptive technology transformation, E S G and more.

Listen today to the EY Tax and Law and Focus podcast series and stay ahead of the curve. From there, you can get a free failure rolled mini course. Deliver to your inbox for some distilled content from the book. And obviously find the book anywhere they're consumed online, including a great audio book narrated by Jaya Singh the actor from Twin Peaks on Showtime.

And also you can to my website get to the soundtrack that I have as a companion piece to the book on, on Apple and Spotify as well as my clothing company, Sole Inspire Supply Company and a lot of other great stuff.

Srini Rao: And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.