Camille Virginia | The Power of Offline Social Connection

Srini Rao

Camille, welcome to the unmistakable creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Camille Virginia

Camille Virginia

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Srini Rao

It is my pleasure to have you here. So I found out about your story because you wrote in and you told me about your book, the offline dating method. And as some of my listeners like to joke, every guest on the show is a reflection of whatever problem I'm trying to solve in my life. And given that I'm still single, I thought, yeah, this is a no brainer. I want to hear about this. So, you know, here we are again, solving Serena's problems. Uh, but

Before we get into that, I wanted to start by asking you a question that I think is very fitting given your background, and that is what social group were you a part of in high school, and what impact did that end up having on where you've ended up and what you've done with your life and your career?

Camille Virginia

I was kind of the friends with everybody social group. So I was in orchestra. I was an orchestra nerd. I had grown up with a lot of the cheerleaders, football players, known them forever. So I was friends with them, friends with the nerds. I just, it was more about the person than the social circle. I didn't really want to be defined by a social circle. I probably didn't have that insight at the time, but it just never felt right to be.

part of a circle of friends that kind of limited themselves. And I think I'm still that way. I just like to be friends with everybody. I don't look at the group of people or what they can do for me, but who are they as individuals? So I tend to have a lot of one-on-one friendships as opposed to a big group of people that I always hang out with.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

I kind of gathered that from reading the book. Random question out of morbid curiosity, what instrument did you play?

Camille Virginia

violin.

Srini Rao

Yeah, the reason I'm curious is because I played the tuba for like 13 years. Violins are far more versatile, by the way.

Camille Virginia

So yeah, Tuba's, that's a big commitment, literally.

Srini Rao

Yeah, and a very useless one, like nobody wants to be serenaded by somebody playing a tuba. That's like a guaranteed way to not get laid on prom night.

Camille Virginia

You're the background person for the person who's doing the serenading.

Srini Rao

I had a friend who played the soprano sax and he basically busted out his soprano on prom night and played that Kenny G song forever in love. I was like, I you can't do shit like that with Atuba.

Camille Virginia

You're like, I chose wrong, damn it.

Srini Rao

Yeah, absolutely. Well, so that ability to sort of be a social chameleon, is that something that's just natural? Like, you know, or is that something that you kind of learned? Like, how did that come about?

Camille Virginia

I think it was natural. I always thought, well, I grew up with social anxiety, actually, so I always thought that I'd kind of miss the memo on how to find a group of friends and identify with them, and it's your ride or die crew. It just never felt right to me. So I tried to fit into a lot of different circles and be friends with different people and...

I tried to kind of emulate what I saw, you know, typical high schoolers do, which is be in cliques and groups. And it just never felt right. It was like a square peg round hole. So the older I got, the more I learned about what social anxiety is and just kind of found my own path with it. I just, especially when I went to college and I could just have a fresh slate, I just started hanging out with people who I liked and they happened to be in all different friend groups.

of people or just like me they like to one-on-one friendships.

Srini Rao

That's kind of an odd paradox to be sort of a social chameleon, but also be dealing with social anxiety. So let's talk about this whole idea of social anxiety, because I didn't know that so many people even know whether they can label it and say, like, I'm a socially anxious person. I mean, I always thought of myself as extroverted, but I also struggled a lot from being uprooted in the middle of high school right after freshman year to coming to a place like I have no fond memories of my high school in California. To me, I'm like, that place was a pit stop.

build the social skills to overcoming because it's kind of bizarre like that of all the things you could make a career out of being a dating coach and teaching people how to basically approach people in person. That's like the opposite of social anxiety.

Camille Virginia

Yeah, I think I have anxiety because I care so much about other people and I pick up on energy. I'm a highly sensitive person. I am an empath. And so I would just get overwhelmed with people. But it's probably now that I think about it because I love people so much. I mean, don't get me wrong, people drive me freaking batshit crazy sometimes. But I just I love connecting with people. I find them fascinating. I

I want to learn about them. I love seeing patterns of human behavior. So I think I was just overwhelming myself whenever I would talk to someone and really working it up in my head of, okay, well I have to emulate how someone does like small talk, but that doesn't feel right for me. But if I want to talk about the deeper stuff that I want to talk about with the person in the cashier at the checkout line at the grocery store, that's going to be weird, so don't do that. So it's just overthinking all this stuff.

trying to express my love of, I wanna connect with this person, but I don't know how.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Did you date in high school?

Camille Virginia

Uh, not really. I went on like a few dates and had some crushes, but really college is where I started dating.

Srini Rao

Okay, I can relate. But I'm curious, like just based on the fact that this is the work you do now, how did your early relationships inform what you've ended up doing?

Camille Virginia

Hehehehe

Camille Virginia

Well, I think I led with my love of connections. So if there was a guy that I felt connected to, I didn't really have any other screening method for should I allow this guy into my life? So that led to a lot of men who didn't share my values, who weren't honest, who weren't ready for a relationship, who didn't treat me well.

And you can get emotionally attached to someone, but that doesn't mean that they're a good person to have in your life. And it took me a long time to learn that lesson and differentiate and learn how to kind of screen and filter for those people before you get emotionally attached.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I mean, you're preaching to the choir. Like I look back at early relationships and think to myself, like, OK, the only reason I'm staying with this person is because I'm afraid to be alone. And this person happens to be romantically and sexually interested in me. But, you know, it gets to the point gets to the point where it's toxic. And it took that for me to actually have a wake up call. What actually taught you how to screen and how do people screen effectively?

Camille Virginia

I think learning the same lessons over and over and over again taught me how to scream. There's only so many times where you're like, God, I really like this guy, but this is happening again where I'm just, I feel good in his presence. And then we get into an argument or he does things or lies to me or whatever. Why is no one else dealing with this or as it seems? So sorry, what was your original question?

Srini Rao

Hahaha!

Srini Rao

Yeah. So how do you actually develop the capacity to screen without closing off tons of possibilities? So I'll give you the most ridiculous example which you might have heard me joke about on the show. I remember I think like second girlfriend was like a train wreck. She had a small dog. And then after that there were like three other girls with small dogs. I'm like, okay, that's it. I don't date girls with small dogs. Women with small dogs are a pain in the ass because they're high maintenance.

Camille Virginia

It's... Uh-huh.

Srini Rao

validate that theory for me here on the show. And my friend Brian was like, Srini Rao , he was like, you're not even a fucking dog person. So like, that's a bullshit theory. And he's like, and your sample size is not big enough to justify that. But that's a ridiculous screening mechanism. So how do you develop legitimate ones? You know, for example, like, let's say that there's some amazing woman who shows up in my life. I'm like, fuck, she has a small dog. I can't take this girl.

Camille Virginia

That's so funny. Well, I think questions are a great place to start. So I like to get right into it with people when I meet them. Like, what was life growing up like for you? And like you started off the podcast with what social group are you a part of in high school? And then that will just trickle down to other questions where you can learn about this person. And I guarantee most people have not been asked questions like that on a daily basis. So...

usually you're gonna get a true answer because it's not something like, oh, well, what are you up to this weekend, which they've answered a million times at this point. So, yeah, so it's questions. Then you have to watch the actions. So, you know, I've dated men who said, oh yeah, I'm an honest person. I don't lie, cheat, or steal. And then a few weeks in, a few months in, you're like, yeah, you do. Like, are you lying to yourself or are you just lying to me?

And so you have to watch, do they actually do what they say? And that just takes time, but there's clues. Like the more you date, the more you can pick up on, hmm, someone's saying this, and I've asked the right questions and they have good answers, but is that where it stops? Are they just charming and they know how to talk the talk? Or do they actually walk the walk? And it's taking it slow, because otherwise, if you're like, great, ask these questions, they said they're honest, let's get into it. And you...

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Camille Virginia

you didn't give it time to actually play out, then you might find yourself dating someone who legitimately thinks that they're honest, but they don't actually know what that word means.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Uh-huh.

Srini Rao

Yeah, well, it's funny because I remember when I started seeing a therapist, he was like, all right, tell me about your relationships and tell me how soon you've had sex with all the women that you've dated. And I'm like, on the first date, he was like, well, that explains a lot. And I was just, he's like, I was like, why? I was like, you shouldn't do that. I was like, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, John, I'm a guy. And then I finally clued into the fact that he said, here's the problem. He said, the minute you start sleeping with somebody, your judgment about that person is going to be completely altered.

you're not going to be objective. And I was shocked to go back and look and see how true that turned out to be.

Camille Virginia

Yeah, no, it's so true. And you're an anxious attachment style, right Trini? Yeah, I've heard you say that and I am too. And so that's an extra level of attachment, right? When you are physical with someone, it totally changes the dynamic and you start, I mean, biology starts kicking in, hormones start kicking in. Now your logical sense is being totally overridden by your body and it's really hard.

Srini Rao

Yeah, yeah, probably.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well.

You know, I am very curious, like, what made you want to dive into offline of all things? And how do we get into this mess where, you know, offline is really not something that people even think about. I remember I had a friend who I briefly dated in L.A. And she told me she said before all the dating apps came out, guys would actually come up to her and talk to her at bars. Like, that's how we met. We met out at a hotel bar one night in L.A. And she said, now I'm in a place like San Francisco, where the ratio is like off the charts for me. And she said, guys, don't come up and talk to me.

Camille Virginia

Yep. Well, gosh, I think it's been a slow burn. The invention of dating apps definitely sped it up. And unfortunately, I mean, gosh, I could, I could talk about this for hours, but dating apps are one of the few companies who are incentivized to not give you what you want. They want to keep you single. They, and there's, you know, various degrees of that. You know, there are some dating

apps that I respect more than others who I think they want to help, but they're also a business. So when you find a match, you're no longer their customer. And so you have a whole population of people who in our instant gratification society think that this is, they don't have to go do the work. They don't have, oh, I don't have to risk being rejected by someone in person. I can just swipe on dating apps and the sting is a little bit less. So that becomes normal.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Camille Virginia

People sit at home, put in very little effort into meeting new people, can tell themselves that, oh, I'm putting myself out there. I'm just not meeting anyone. They're going based off of looks and other arbitrary aspects that don't matter in a committed relationship in the longterm. And it's just created this society of people who complain more about the state of dating than are actually willing to do something about it.

And it's sad. And for the people like you and I, who remember our life before the internet, we're a dying breed. I mean, I'm an older millennial and I think probably technically you are too, but Gen Z, we're the last generation who remembers life without the internet. There will never be another generation of people who didn't grow up with a screen. So we're losing these social skills that are innate to us, but mother nature hasn't caught up

let us know that, oh yes, actually, when you're behind the screen connecting with people, it fulfills your innate need for social connection. We're all good. So there's this secondary epidemic of loneliness that's been happening and it's just, it's a fricking mess.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, I remember Cal Newport and I talking about this. He said, you know, he said that, uh, you know, the human brain doesn't basically associate glowing glass characters on, you know, ASCII characters on a screen as real connection. And so you get this sort of masquerade. And I, I remember when I think Bumble went public and I was reading about Whitney Wills relationships. I was like, wait a minute, the founder of Bumble didn't meet her husband on the app that she created. I like, don't you think that's a bit of a paradox or, you know, it's a bit ridiculous, but I remember thinking the exact same thing. I was like, yeah,

Camille Virginia

Cough

Camille Virginia

Hehehe

Srini Rao

no way that this company would succeed if everybody on here met the person they were supposed to meet because then they would lose all their users.

Camille Virginia

Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. And it's just sad because people want to connect. You know, people are starved for this in-person connection and they're basically living off drunk food when they're swiping on dating apps. They're staying alive, they're staying a little bit connected. It's doing long-term damage and they're not feeling good. And yeah, it's only going to get worse before it gets better.

Srini Rao

Okay, well.

I think that the other reason I wanted to have this conversation with you was because, you know, we're talking about something that was incredibly challenging for the last two years to be able to be out in person with people was pretty much not an option. I can tell you firsthand, like, you know, the experience of trying to date in the middle of a pandemic, you know, with an Indian mom who's pissed off that I'm still single. I'm like, listen, I'm like, we just got out of a damn global pandemic. You know, give me some breathing room here. But the other thing I noticed is that I've become very comfortable not going and

anything. Like it's just getting myself to get out of the house. I'm getting back into that habit has been a real battle because I've just become comfortable being a hermit. And I know I'm just like, there's no way that this can be good. So let's talk about how we start to break out of this mess. First, just this, like, you know, getting back into the habit of leaving the house to begin with.

Camille Virginia

Hmm. Well, you gotta start with the first step. So what's something that you wanna do more of that you aren't doing? What's actually feels comfortable but is not making you happy? So like, it's, I like to compare loneliness and social isolation with our need to eat and drink. When you're hungry, you get a pang of hunger. Your body knows it's hungry. You go fulfill it.

loneliness, social isolation creeps up on you. It's chronic. So at some point, there's usually some kind of turning point where it's like, okay, I haven't been out in three days. I feel like crap. I want to keep binging Netflix, but is that going to be what's best for me right now? And just go for a walk. You don't have to talk to someone, but break your pattern of whatever you're in. That doesn't feel good.

Just a little bit, do a small pattern interrupt. Text a friend, get on a call and call your mom or something like that. Just break the cycle that you've been in and that will make the next step easier.

Srini Rao

Yeah, well it's funny you say that because I...

spend a lot of afternoons pretty much reading and writing. And I'm thinking, I always think of myself like, no, why do I need to do this at my desk? I could go to the local coffee shop that is literally walking distance from my house where there are always people. And, you know, it's funny because we used to do that before we got into the pandemic. And then next thing you know, we just got into this sort of comfort zone of being socially isolated. Unfortunately, now it's starting to change a little bit. But I think the funny thing is, even though the conditions have changed, the behavior has stuck because we've been conditioned to it.

Camille Virginia

completely agree. And actually, Srini Rao , can I take a cough one second? Okay, one second, I'll be right back.

Srini Rao

Yeah, go for it.

Yeah.

Camille Virginia

Okay, I still have like lingering COVID coughs.

Srini Rao

No worries. I'll have Josh edit this out. Yeah.

Camille Virginia

Awesome, thank you. Okay, now, sorry, remind me of what you...

Srini Rao

Yeah, I mean, I think that even though we've started to finally get out of this sort of quarantine mess, the problem is you've conditioned people for two years to not leave their houses. I think a lot of people have become like me. I don't think I'm alone here in the fact that I've become comfortable not going out. Not only that, when I do go out, my bandwidth for interacting with people is a lot lower than it was before. Like two hours in and just like, all right, I said I'm done. I need to be home.

Camille Virginia

That's funny. Do you have an example of that? Like two hours into like a conversation with a friend or what do you mean?

Srini Rao

Well, I mean, even with my close friends, you know, if I go to a friend's house for two or three hours, I'm just like, all right, guys, I'm done. I got to go home. I've had enough of all of you. I love you. But that's enough.

Camille Virginia

Yeah, I mean that makes sense, right? If you go from not going out for long stretches of time to trying to be super social, but humans are wired to belong to a tribe. Like the feeling of loneliness is mother nature's kick in the ass to get back to the tribe and say, you know, whatever you did to get kicked out, apologize and go back because you're gonna die if you're alone. Like that's what loneliness is trying to tell us. And

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Camille Virginia

It's so sad because again, it's not acute. Like, oh, I'm hungry, I'm gonna go get a cheeseburger or I'm thirsty, I'm gonna take a drink of water. Loneliness is this thing in the background that just kind of gnaws at you and there's no... Like...

trying to say, you need something to kind of kick you in the pants or a defining moment or something to get you out, to break that pattern. Because otherwise, the longer you go without checking the loneliness and connecting with people, the bigger the fear of doing that is going to be. The more you being in social isolation is going to be your new normal. And that's not what most people want, but it's what has become familiar. And the outside world and connecting is scary.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Mm-mm.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Camille Virginia

giving so many small examples of ways to connect with someone. And it's like getting your vegetables fit. You know, it's like, just have a carrot. If you want to lose 20 pounds, you don't have to go to the gym seven days a week, just change that bag of chips for a salad. Just start there. And then that's gonna have a domino effect for so many other things. And you're actually gonna get into a different pattern, a different comfort level.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Srini Rao

Hmm. Yeah.

Camille Virginia

building healthy connection habits or diet habits, whatever example you wanna use. And just start there, don't overwhelm yourself by being like, oh, I have no friends. I can never have any more friends. And there's no one who wants to connect with me. Oh my gosh, I can't talk to people. Start small.

Srini Rao

Nah.

Srini Rao

Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, it's funny because I know that inherently and I apply that to my, you know, professional life on a daily basis. Doing it in other contexts of my life has always been like the dating context is like, yeah, I don't you're not telling me anything. I don't know. It's just like, oh, I could take the same approach. I take to my work and do the same thing in a social life.

Camille Virginia

Uh-huh.

Camille Virginia

So why do you think you're not?

Srini Rao

That's a good question, I don't know. Honestly, because it's comfortable, not to.

Camille Virginia

But it's not comfortable to a certain point.

Srini Rao

Yeah, no, I mean, it's getting to a point of being uncomfortable now. So, um, well, let's talk about the book. But I want to use kind of a bizarre jump off point to get into this. So.

A good amount of what I learned about dating and relationships unfortunately came in a really terrible context, which was the seduction community. And I remember there was a certain point where we literally would go out and we're like, this is no longer fun. All we do is come out to try to meet girls and we actually aren't even having a good time and to top it all off, we're not meeting anybody. And I saw that over and over and over again. And I remember there was something you said in the book about the whole point just being to go out and connect with people.

as opposed to being out with this intention of some sort of outcome. So talk to me about that.

Camille Virginia

Yeah, opportunities over outcomes. So we don't know what is going to come from a conversation with someone. And that's, we can't possibly know that. We can't look across the room and say, you know what? That's my next husband. I just got a feeling. I mean, we hear stories about that and it's in the movies, but in reality, that's very rare. And it's more luck than actual, like, they were able to completely assess the compatibility of a person they've never met from across the room.

You know what I mean? So if you're feeling drawn to someone, go explore that connection. Go talk to them. Find something around you to comment on or ask them a question or just say, hey, I noticed you and you seem like a really interesting person or your bag caught my eye or whatever. That's your only job in that moment. Explore that feeling of, hmm, I wanna connect with this person.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Camille Virginia

You don't know if they're gonna be a new client, your next boyfriend, the person who introduces you to your wife in two years at a party, you know? And you don't have to. Take that pressure off yourself to determine who is this person and who are they gonna be for the rest of my life in my life? You know, like we don't have enough information for that. So yeah, just talk to them and see where it goes. That's your only job in that moment. Meanwhile, you're gonna be fulfilling your need for connection.

Srini Rao

Alright.

Camille Virginia

and it's gonna feel amazing, and you're gonna start letting go of this pressure to get a certain outcome, like they teach in the seduction community in PUA, which is very goal-oriented, you know? Meet a woman, sleep with her. Well, that gets old after a while, even if it does work, and it doesn't always work. So just take, yeah.

Srini Rao

What you know, it's funny. He says, so the irony of the seduction community is for a bunch of guys who are so committed to meeting lots of women. Basically, they spent 98% of their time with other guys.

Camille Virginia

That's true. Yeah, when you pull back and look at the ridiculousness of the constriction that we have, and constructs that we put around connecting with people and dating and social interaction, it's ridiculous. Like, just talk to people, you know? And I know that as someone with social anxiety, that phrase, if someone had told me that when I was 16, I'd be like, fuck you. That's really hard. But we all have the skills to connect. It's innate to us. We're social creatures.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Camille Virginia

those skills and that the fear around using them has just been buried because of modern culture and what, you know, the shame of, well, I don't know how to talk to girls, so I should be ashamed. No one knows how to talk to girls, you know? That's something that you have to just learn.

Srini Rao

One thing, and we'll get start getting deeper into the book, what do you sort of predict is going to be the byproduct of this, particularly for the younger generations who basically grown up with their face, I had a cousin who told me once he couldn't date women who were under a certain age, particularly ones who grew up as digital natives, because he said it's impossible to hold a conversation with them without them basically looking at their phone every two seconds.

Camille Virginia

Yeah, well first of all, that's a generalization and there's probably some truth to that with a lot of younger people who they don't know how to have those conversational skills without a screen in their in front of their face, but there's mother nature's, like how do I say this, our instincts to connect with each other have not changed with the invention of the iPhone.

It's not like in 2007, all of a sudden, you know, we have this mobile device that can do everything for us and we're like, oh, don't need to talk to anyone anymore. And those instincts go away. So with the younger generations, we have this situation where they don't know life without screens, but their instincts and their biology and their innate need is to connect face to face with someone, but a lot of them haven't experienced that because that's not the world they grew up in. It doesn't mean they can't.

We can't relearn that. We can't bring that back. I read an article in the New York Times, probably like two years ago where, oh gosh, what was it? Human touch is a luxury. And it's about, did you read that?

Srini Rao

Yeah. I think I may have like that sounds familiar.

Camille Virginia

Yeah, it was brilliant. And it's about how, you know, 15 years ago, all the CEOs in Silicon Valley wanted to have their kids go to these ultra wired and connected schools, every kid had a laptop. Now, it's literally the opposite. They're paying premium dollars for their kids to go to screenless schools and get back in touch with each other, you know what I mean? So if that's any...

Srini Rao

Yeah

Camille Virginia

if that's a litmus test of what's to come for the rest of society, then you know, I think that there's going to be this wave of people who don't want to just connect from behind a screen and they want to go out and the social skills movement really because we just we can't keep going the way that we're going. I mean loneliness has health impacts on people. We're hurting our health system by just keeping people disconnected from behind a screen and not having more

in-person events and of course, you know, yeah, to your point, we went through a pandemic. Well, we need to find a balance because we were so afraid of the physical aspects of the pandemic for so long, we ignored a lot of the mental aspects and that's catching up with us right now.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

I remember having a conversation with my dad the other night and I was like, just kind of a mess. He was like, what's going on? He was like, what's wrong with you? He was like, you seem down. And I'm like, he said, I think it's hitting you because my, you know, my old roommate just moved to Austin. The other roommate is moving out of April. My cousin who's lived here for two years is moving because he got a job at Tesla. He said, everybody you know is moving from Boulder. He said, unconsciously or consciously, I think that's starting to hit you. That's probably why you feel the way you do. And it occurred to me that I was like, Oh my God, you're right. This is like a big change.

So you mentioned you're an older millennial and I may have brought this up on the show before but you grew up watching Back to the Future?

Camille Virginia

Yes.

Srini Rao

Okay. So this is something and I'd love to talk to you about this because I've not gotten deep into this with anybody yet, but I remember thinking when we were growing up, the idea that you could see somebody's face on the other end of the phone was like some back to the future shit. You're like, that's going to be amazing when we can do that. And I was like, the way that we communicate it's ironic. So it's basically like you hand cavemen iPads and like, nah, fuck it. We're just going to keep writing on stone tablets. Like as the communication technology has become more advanced, the way we

has become more primitive. It's kind of ridiculous. It's such an odd paradox. Like I noticed that if I text somebody they'll text back. If I call them they don't pick up the fucking phone.

Camille Virginia

That is such a good point. Yeah. It's almost like because it's, we don't have to overcome rejection. We don't have to go the extra step to make a call. We can be so kind of lazy about it, sending a text message or something really easy like that, that it kind of dumbs down our social skills. When you have to go approach a person in public and you don't know if you're going to be rejected and you find them attractive, you place a high value on that interaction. You are engaged. You are thinking about it. You're intentional.

And the quality of that interaction is probably gonna be higher because of all those things. When you can just send a quick text or you don't have to put a lot of effort into or swipe on a dating app or whatever, it is gonna lower the value of that interaction for you, your engagement in that interaction and the quality of it for sure.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I remember when I did some work with Nick Notis as a dating coach, and I remember really getting concerned about the fact that I was getting older. And he said, yeah, he said on an app, you're going to get ruled out based on your age. He said, in person, it's not going to matter at all.

Camille Virginia

No, well that's just it. And like, we can't tell, we think we know what we want. And there's a great Ted Talk by Christina Wallace. And she said, here's what I wanted in a man. Kind, honest, smart, ambitious. Here's what I was screening for on the dating apps. Over six feet tall, less than four subway stops away, handsome. And it's this total mismatch of things that we're looking for.

with someone when we're on a dating app and what we screen for versus when we're in person. And we just, like I said, you know, you can feel drawn to someone and, or, you know, someone buys your coffee, someone in line behind you buys your coffee, you strike up a conversation, and all of a sudden you're, you didn't even notice them before, but now you're like, wow, this person's really cool. Like, I wanna see more of this person. So those serendipitous things don't have a chance to happen.

And we're screening for the wrong aspects on dating apps, and so of course things aren't working out. Plus offline dating is just so much more fun. It's just, if you're gonna go to the grocery store and get a tub of ice cream, why not get a date for the weekend? Ha!

Srini Rao

Mm.

Srini Rao

All right. So I will. You're going to have to tell me some stories about your own experience with this. But let's get into one of the concepts in the book that really struck me. And that was this whole idea of magnetic approachability. You say the goal of becoming more approachable is to get you into the state of magnetic approachability, whereas you're as comfortable and confident in the company of strangers as you are sitting at home on your couch in your favorite pair of sweats. So let's talk about that. How does somebody cultivate that?

Camille Virginia

Well, you've got to be comfortable. And this is where, yeah, if you've been sitting at home for two years during the pandemic and you're just on the couch, it's going to feel a little uncomfortable to go out and be surrounded by a lot of people if you're not used to that. So take it slowly, go for a walk, say hi to some people, get your social skills warmed up. It's like getting back into working out. You're not going to go and bench.

250 on your first try if you haven't been in the gym in two years. So, uh-huh, right. Uh-huh. So, just take it slowly, you know? Start with, I don't know, what's a good bench press? Like 30 pounds or something. I have no idea. I don't bench press. But you know what I'm saying? Like, start with the lower weight, work your way up to the bigger. And so, with magnetic approachability, you genuinely need to be comfortable around people. And

Srini Rao

What are you talking about? I'm Superman. I can totally do that. Just kidding.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Camille Virginia

I grew up in Portland, Oregon, and I, you know, public transportation's okay if you live right in the city, but I worked in the suburbs and lived in the city, and anyway, I drove everywhere. I moved to Chicago in 2010, didn't have a car, lived in the city, worked in the city, and I remember getting on the L train in the morning for the morning commute, and it was like, 10 people were touching me, I didn't know these people, this was so uncomfortable, and...

I freaked out the first couple of times. I felt out of control. I wasn't used to people touching me. After like the sixth or seventh time, I was like, meh, hey, there's two inches of room. I'm gonna shove myself in the subway. There's plenty of room, you know? And I didn't care. But it took a little while to get to that point. So you've gotta be comfortable, take it slowly to get to that point where you can genuinely relax and not feel like you're constantly protecting yourself when you're out in public. And this is especially true for women, because we're...

constantly on the alert for danger, you know, just physically and it's harder for us to protect ourselves. So, once you work up to that, start trying to go places with one friend at the most, but preferably alone. And I have what's called the 20-minute trick where work this into existing plans. If you've got plans, if you've got a dinner with a friend, show up 20 minutes early.

Get used to being alone in a space, and again, being genuinely comfortable, and it's the perfect window of time to meet someone. You have a reason for being there, your friend's gonna show up, it's just 20 minutes, but that's a good way to kind of ease into, again, creating more opportunities in a way where you're not totally scaring yourself going zero to 60 if you're not used to talking to people or being out in public with a lot of people.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Let's talk about clothes because you say that your clothes are almost always the first impression you give someone, which is great news because you have the power to choose what that impression is, use your outfits and accessories to express your mood, personality, interest and or passions. If you make your own jewelry or have a love of trucker hats, show it off. Then when someone compliments or comments on that piece, the interaction becomes even more personal and kicks off the topic you love. Well, personally, I'm never going to wear a trucker hat, but that being said, I am curious, like you had this really interesting.

thing where you wrote about sort of the things that just caused people to blend in. And I remember looking at that thinking, OK, yeah, I mean, I have certain colors that I know will stand out. The joke with some of my friends is like everything that you wear is basically a walking advertisement for unmistakable creative.

Camille Virginia

I think that's great. I mean, then if you wear a lot of that, then you're going to get more conversations about something that you're very passionate about, you know? So it's great, like stand out from the crowd. I have a picture, I went to the university club in Chicago years ago, and one of my statement pieces is a red coat. And it was like, I don't know, fall or not quite winter yet. And I hung it up on the rack, and when I was walking out, I turned back, there were like 50 black.

Srini Rao

now.

Camille Virginia

fall coats and my one red coat in the coat rack. And I was like, well, if this doesn't represent what I teach, I don't know what does. And so do you want to be another black coat, like, and blend in with the crowd? Or do you want to be a little bit different? You know, you don't have to dye your hair pink or have crazy piercings or tattoos or anything, but if that's your style, then do that and show that off because that's part of your personality and you're going to attract people who are drawn to that, even if they're just curious.

Srini Rao

Yeah. It's funny you mention a red coat of all things, because, you know, I told you I was just having Vanessa talking to Vanessa Van Edwards. I was like the one thing that would literally catch my attention in any environment is a woman dressed in red. Probably one because all our brand collector colors are red. But, you know, I literally was like, you know what? I'd been looking for this red shirt for weeks. I still haven't found it. And I was thinking to myself, you know what? I went on Etsy to see if somebody could custom paint my shoes red, because it turns out that red dress sneakers are really hard to find.

But literally, it's just funny that you mentioned that because that would have absolutely caught my attention a second, you would have been the first person I noticed.

Camille Virginia

Mm-hmm. And so then who do you if I'm the first person that you or another man notices, who do you think? You or another man is gonna talk to not one of the 50 black coats, you know So yeah, and it's an instant conversation starter Hey, I love your jacket and it happens to be one of my favorite jackets And so I would love that you liked it and now I feel instant rapport with you Now we've got a conversation going and it doesn't have to stay on the jacket you know, that's what chapter 3 is about in my book is getting off the icebreaker because this is just

how to start a conversation, see if someone else wants to opt into it or not, and going from there. The icebreaker is not something that you need to be on for 20 minutes. So, yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Okay. So now that we've talked about the icebreaker, let's talk about what you call the five rules of engagement. Assume they're interested, find the positive, accept all compliments, go with the rule and don't be cruel.

Camille Virginia

Yes. So the five elements of a meaningful conversation. So this is my formula to get off the icebreaker, get off the small talk and get into more meaningful territory. And this is something you can use with someone you are attracted to, someone at a party that you're curious about or interested in, someone you're not attracted to. Like this is something that I found myself doing. And when I wrote the book and I was like, how do I, how do I take something like...

intangible, like a meaningful conversation and help other people create it. What am I doing where I can meet someone at a party and they're bearing their soul to me within 10 minutes, you know, and they're telling me things that they haven't told anyone? How do I give other people the skills to do this? And I just kind of worked backwards and really thought about it. And the five elements of a meaningful conversation are what came from that. And it's starting off with asking good questions, you know, like, like you do on the podcast and

Not the generic stuff that no one cares about. No one's gonna open up if you ask, if you just stay on like, what do they do this weekend? You know? And then being comfortable with silence. Don't jump in to fill the silence just because you're uncomfortable with it. Hold the space. You might be getting a more meaningful answer from someone. Visual listening, that's my most powerful tip in the book, which is...

Srini Rao

Yeah, I remember that. That struck that really stood out to me.

Camille Virginia

Yeah, well, tell me what interested you, because that is so powerful. And I didn't realize I was an empathetic listener until I heard that was a thing. And I was like, oh my God. But that's the key to the whole thing is really just listening and images. But what did you think about it?

Srini Rao

Well, I think the reason that entire section in particular struck me was I just felt like I was reading a description of how I conduct interviews on the podcast.

Camille Virginia

That makes sense because you conduct great interviews, you ask great questions, you hold the space and then you know exactly what to ask next based on the fact that you are actively listening to what's happening in the now. You're not crafting your next question and tuning out of what's happening in the moment. And it's a skill that anyone can do, honestly.

Srini Rao

So here's a really odd paradox. I'm really bad at it in other parts of my life. And I only know this because I've had podcast listeners who set me up on dates and then they get pissed off. They come back and like you won't believe what my friend said. She said you didn't listen. I can't believe that. And I'm like, yeah, that's because you set her up on a date with a host of a podcast, not with me.

Camille Virginia

What do you think the difference is?

Srini Rao

That is a good question. OK, so to some degree, I believe strongly that on the internet, no matter how authentic people they claim to be, they are playing a character, to some degree. There are things that I would say to you when we're off the record and not.

having pressed record that I would never say on the air. Things that would be the end of my career. Like as I joke with my friends, I'm like, I say things on a daily basis that are a PR crisis in the making. So much so that I literally had to have a podcast interview once redone when I was with a friend. And I remember hearing my answer to the question. One of my friends like you recorded this, right? They're like, yeah, like, OK, we know you well enough to know the way you're explaining it to us is not the way it came across.

Play the recording and they're like, yeah, this is a crisis in the making. Call her back and have her redo it. Um, and we did, but it's, I think there's some degree.

The part is probably because I don't have very much self doubt when I'm behind a microphone. It's like the one place where the rest of the world disappears.

Camille Virginia

and you feel that it's different when you're in person with someone or when you're actually just not being the host of the show.

Srini Rao

Yeah, to some degree. I mean, I don't know why. Maybe it's because I literally spend all day listening to people.

Camille Virginia

I wonder, so I want to go back to what you said about you assume that people are playing characters when you're interviewing them, when you read about them online, like when do you assume that people are characters versus not?

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Well, I think that if you're in the public eye to some degree, and I still believe this is true, and like 100% authenticity is actually not appropriate in a lot of places. If you're the president of the United States, your words have implications. The things I say here, given that thousands of people hear them, have implications. Like there are certain places where you have to draw a line. And

That's that's part of it. So, you know, like, I don't think that people are inauthentic. I think they're discerning about what they choose to share and what they choose not to share.

Camille Virginia

Hmm. I see what you're saying. I feel like, at least for me, what you see is what you get. And I, that was not the case 20 years ago. And you and I are talking about things right now that are, you know, with the audience in mind, we wanna give tips, we wanna tell stories, we wanna help people, but I would be having the same conversation with you if you were sitting here in front of me without the microphone. Cause it's just...

what comes out of my mouth. So I just wonder if like, already assuming that people are playing characters, which you've shared some of the stories of people you've interviewed, people who wanted you to interview them, you know, how much that can kind of take a toll on your, how much you invest in humanity when you see them. Sometimes not so great sides of people, but I think also just keeping an open mind that maybe sometimes what you see is what you get. And someone like you has been in a position where you have interviewed.

so many people and you have such a broad view of human behavior to like use your instincts about hmm this person's playing a character versus hmm I wonder if this person is this is just how this would be if we were sitting down for coffee I don't know it might take a little away a little bit of the hmm I wonder what this person's not telling me.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Okay, so the other thing is that when I'm behind the microphone, it's my job in person and it's work. Like this is why I don't do more than one interview a day. You notice that when you and I had to reschedule, I waited until I knew you would be the only conversation I would have because it after one interview, I never realized this. I realized how draining it was. I was like, oh my God, like I'm tired because I've just sat and really had to focus. And I think that in person, like I tend to be a bit more loose.

Who knows I mean we could go on about this for hours.

Camille Virginia

I love it though. I mean, I don't want to make you uncomfortable and ask you questions that you don't want to answer. Okay, good. But yeah, you said that, you know, part of why you wanted to have me on was because, you know, you wanted to take a little bit different look at your dating life. So I'm just, I'm curious because you are so, you have such insight to people that most people will never ever have because of your job. And it's

Srini Rao

No, no, no. That's fine.

Camille Virginia

I see this dichotomy kind of where post-Sreeny is still authentic, but has trouble like getting into being a personal Sreeny. But I think that they're the same person. And I think you've created some rules in there that don't necessarily need to be there.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Well, it's funny because I remember one of my friends was like, dude, you can get people to tell you pretty much anything. Like you go on a date, they'll just do what you do in an interview. And that right that in and of itself is sometimes a challenge because I'm like, well, the amount of work that takes for me is kind of, you know, it's mind boggling. Like I could probably do it and I should try it again and see how it goes.

Camille Virginia

I disagree. I think if it's gonna be work for you, that you shouldn't do it. I don't think that you should feel drained by the end of a conversation. If you're feeling yourself turning on, and I talk about this in the book a little bit, people, like I actually have a graph in the book, like when you are projecting a certain persona or energy that isn't in line with your natural energy, which of course when you're a podcast host, you have to, to a certain extent.

Srini Rao

Okay.

Srini Rao

Mm.

Camille Virginia

But if you're finding yourself doing that in your personal life, you're not gonna enjoy it if you feel like you have to be on and project a certain persona and you're gonna drain yourself.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, the other thing you pointed out was that the sheer volume of information I have in my head is like an encyclopedia of knowledge on human behavior. And disconnecting that to just show up as a normal human being is also one of those things that I think probably is a challenge, which just talking to you is making me kind of realize that.

Camille Virginia

I wondered about that because I'm the same where I know so much. I've talked to so many people in so many cultures, ages. I love it, but I still love to let people surprise me. I want to use all those instincts and I feel into them. If something's feeling familiar, like you and I were talking about probably before you hit record on the podcast, just about you can kind of instantly spot people who are not going to, shall we say, make good guests for your podcast.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Camille Virginia

that can come in handy, but you can feel your way into that without having to necessarily, I don't know, think about it. You have so much information, like going based on your feelings a little bit more, as opposed to maybe trying to logically ration it and make decisions might ease up on the draining feeling.

Srini Rao

I'm laughing because you pretty much hit the nail on the head. This is probably feedback that I hear from friends on a daily basis. They're logical and rational to a fault.

Camille Virginia

It's a protection mechanism, right?

Srini Rao

Yeah, probably.

Camille Virginia

Mm-hmm. But it's also disconnecting you from people who you want to connect with because you feel comfortable in the role of podcast host and asking questions to your own detriment. So of course you're not having fun on the date if you're draining yourself, but no one asked you to do that.

Srini Rao

Yeah, that's true.

OK, so I want to go back to the icebreaker. And one of the things you pointed out is that I ask certain questions that immediately get people to start telling stories. Now, sometimes I wonder, like, if I started a date with one of those questions, wouldn't that be kind of invasive and awkward right off the start? Like, there's got to be some level of buildup to a point where, you know, somebody feels comfortable answering really personal questions so quickly. Because I remember when somebody did it to me recently, this woman was texting me these, like, incredibly personal questions right before we met.

Srini Rao

and she still kept asking and I was like, FYI, I'm like these questions are completely off limits. You and I are not dating and we're not friends. I was like these are reserved for people in my life when I'm close to.

Camille Virginia

So your question is how do you get to the point of asking questions like that?

Srini Rao

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Camille Virginia

Well, first of all, it sounds like she had the wrong intentions. So any question that she asked is going to be off because if she's asking super personal questions over text message, that's not appropriate. That's not a place to have an in-depth conversation is over text message. You're just not going to get a good conversation, especially if you're not even friends with her. You haven't opted into that. You know what I mean? The meaningful level. So

But I get into meaningful conversations with people right off the bat. It's taken it slow of like, you know, I'll use the scenario of going to a party and meeting someone, hey, how do you know the birthday boy? Oh, we've been friends since high school. Oh, where'd you go to high school? And then, you know, maybe you can ask the question of what social group were you in high school? That's a nice, not too personal, but it's going to be unique and interesting and gives the opportunity for the other person to.

to be a little vulnerable, to share, you know, actually I was kind of a nerd, or high school wasn't the best time for me, or I kicked in high school and it's been downhill from there. And you're like, okay, bye. See you later. You know, you're gonna get a lot of information from that one question, and then you're gonna know whether you can keep going. And if they get a little vulnerable, and sometimes you have to be the one to get vulnerable first, like, yeah, actually high school was kind of terrible for me. I didn't have any friends.

Here is the text with the timestamps removed:

Srini Rao

Hahaha!

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Camille Virginia

Blah, blah, blah. Now you give the other person permission to be a little vulnerable. Whether they go there or not is, you know, you gotta wait and see. But this is how you get deep real fast. Start off with kind of those middle ground questions that aren't small talk, but they're not tell me your deepest, darkest secret right now over text message. Yeah, so yeah. And you can get real deep, real fast, especially when you do step four of how to have a meaning, five elements of a meaningful conversation, you release judgment.

Srini Rao

right. Yeah, I'm sorry.

Camille Virginia

people can feel when you're judging them. And I am an INFJ personality, same as Selena Sue, or the rarest type, and that J stands for judging. So it is how we discern and make judgments about people, but it's not holding those assessments against someone. So you can have an opinion of someone, but don't make them less than you, even in your mind, because of that difference. Does that make sense? People can feel that. Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Camille Virginia

and they won't open up because of it. So.

Srini Rao

Yeah, no, I, to this day distinctly remember, I think this was like right before the pandemic started. I went on a date with this girl and I told her, I was like, I listened to Umbop when I'm snowboarding. And she was like, you shouldn't tell people that. And I was like, you know what? I was like, perfect. Now I have a filter for the kind of woman I wouldn't date. So I literally put it in my dating profile. I was like, if you have a problem with this, swipe left.

Camille Virginia

Yes!

I love that. God, I wouldn't want to talk to that person either. Like, first of all, don't tell me what to do. Second of all, this is your own arbitrary rule of, you know, don't tell people that. Yes, so that I can attract someone who likes to wear black jackets because I want someone like everyone else, but I think that I'm unique and special. Like, come on, people.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Totally. Yeah, no, I mean, to me, it was one of those things was like, you know what? Yeah, I have the pop culture taste of a teenage girl. Get over it. If you have a problem with that, we're not meant to be.

Camille Virginia

In fact, I'd say showcase that. Honestly, Srini Rao, like you want the people who know that fact about you, and they're like, he's awesome, I wanna talk to him. Like it's an instant screening method, and it's very natural. That's why I say, yeah, wear statement pieces, wear unmistakable creative garb, and like put it out there. Naturally attract people who are into that or curious about it. It's very efficient.

Srini Rao

Mm hmm. Yeah. So now I wonder as a woman, if you feel this, but like I think as a guy, the minute you find somebody attractive, you find yourself in a conversation with them and the thought of asking them out with them out on a date comes up. Like there's almost this, you know, unspoken sense of being attached to an outcome. How do you figure out how to disconnect from that?

Camille Virginia

Thank you.

Camille Virginia

So if you want to ask someone out.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I mean, so like, let's say we know what I mean, I think that takes us towards the end of the book pretty much too.

Camille Virginia

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it can absolutely be scary asking someone out. The trick is to, after you've connected meaningfully, that's the meat of it, right? Like you need to give someone a reason to ask you out. If you are just trying to get the ask out and you've been on small talk the whole time, why is someone gonna wanna spend more time with you if all you've shown them is that you're gonna talk about small talk? No one wants more small talk. So create the meaningful connection.

And the ask out is the easy part. This person is of course gonna wanna spend more time with you. People are starved for meaningful connection. When they find someone who can give it to them and the other person also feels fulfilled, it's not at their expense that they made the first person feel good, they're gonna find a way to do it. The trick is to just not make it personal. So after you've created a meaningful connection, which can happen fast and can be 10 minutes sometimes, or less.

Um, steer towards, so, you know, what do you, uh, what do you do for fun? And, or what kind of events do you like to do in the city or whatever? And then as they start listing things, if there's something you like to do as well, or you're, you're curious about, or, oh, I haven't tried that. Find something that you guys can do in common and make the get together about that event. It can make it the whole conversation and ask out process a lot less personal. Like if you just ask someone like, Hey.

Srini Rao

Thanks for watching!

Camille Virginia

Can I get your number? It's like, you open all these questions. Well, okay, why do you want your number? Are you gonna call me? Are you just getting my number? What are we gonna do? What's the purpose? If you're like, hey, I like horseback riding too. We should do it sometime. Can I get your number? There's a clear direction. And if they say no, then it's like, okay, well, maybe they didn't like horseback riding that much. I don't have to take it that personally.

Srini Rao

So I have to ask a question, two questions out of morbid curiosity. You just have like an endless string of dates now at this point, now that you know how to do this.</p >

Camille Virginia

Oh gosh, I actually got into this business. Like I was in corporate for a decade before this corporate consulting. And I started this business because I had so many dates and ask outs. So yes, I've been on a lot of dates. I've had a lot of relationships. But I really, I love being in a relationship. The dating has been, I don't know if anyone's listening. They're like, I wish I had lots of dates.

double-edged sword, you know?

Srini Rao

I learned that after going on six dates in one week once and my friend Mike said yeah, dude He's like this can become a full-time job if you're not careful

Camille Virginia

Exactly, and not one that you're paid for and not one that's necessarily enjoyable. So I'm grateful for what I learned on all the dates and, you know, all those experiences. Do I want to go through all those again? No, I don't. I love that I can teach other people and hopefully give them the lessons without having to go through the same experiences that I did, because some of my experiences were really terrible. But

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Camille Virginia

What was your original question?

Srini Rao

Well, you answered it. So the second one, tell me about the craziest good experience you had with connecting with somebody in person using what you've learned.

Camille Virginia

The craziest good experience. Hmm.

Oh, let's see. Well, I was in New York on work and I was walking down Fifth Avenue and I noticed that they were filming something across the street. So I stopped, I had my laptop, I was in pinstripe pants and all dressed up and we're watching this filming and it turns out to be Ugly Betty. So this is about 10 years ago. And there's this guy walking around behind America Ferrera.

clearly her bodyguard, and he comes up to the end of the sidewalk and he waves at us. There's like 20 of us watching, so some of us kind of wave back. And then he comes across the street and he comes up to me and he's like, hi, I'm, you know, introduces himself. He's like, I like your energy. Can I take you out? And I was like, I'm like in shock. I'm like, what? Okay. And so I ended up briefly dating America for his bodyguard and ended up, and ended up.

He invited me to go to the Waller for Storia that night. They were filming the season finale of Ugly Betty and I got to meet the cast and go behind the scenes and it was just very surreal, you know? Antonio Spato Junior's like saying, hi, how are you? Who are you? And Marica Vera is looking at me like, who the hell is this bitch? And why is my bodyguard talking to her and not guarding me? So, no, she was super sweet. But that-

Srini Rao

Hahaha!

Camille Virginia

That was a very unexpected thing that I just kind of kept seeing to the next step. And he was a lovely man. Didn't have a lot in common, but it was an unforgettable experience.

Srini Rao

Yeah, you don't check me as somebody who would have a lot in common with somebody's celebrity, a celebrity bodyguard.

Camille Virginia

Yeah, he had a lot of great stories, but the meaningful connection part was a little not there.

Srini Rao

Wow, this has been amazing. I love the fact that it's gone in so many different directions. So I have one final question for you, which I know you've heard me ask. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Camille Virginia

So I've been thinking about this, because I knew you would ask it. I think to be truly unmistakable, you have to know why you're unmistakable. I could tell you to put on a red coat and you're gonna stand out in the sea of black coats. Is that unmistakable? Nah, I don't know, probably not. So I think really finding what your secret sauce is, like what is, and I talk about this in one of my future books that I'll be publishing, but what's your personality?

Are you into taking personality tests? Myers-Briggs, disc, Colby, you know, what's your innate wiring that you're working with? What are your interests and hobbies? What makes you unique? What are you passionate about? What's your purpose in life? Really like reflecting on all these different things that combine to make up the you that is unique, that's unmistakable. But you have to discover that for yourself before you can show that to other people.

Srini Rao

Amazing. Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us, share your insights and stories and listen with our listeners and solve Srini Rao 's personal problems, which hopefully other people benefited from.

Camille Virginia

Thank you so much for having me. I could talk to you forever. So I hope your listeners got a lot of tips and stories out of this.

Srini Rao

Where can people find out more about you, your work, and everything they're up to?

Camille Virginia

Well, my book, The Offline Dating Method, first and second edition, are available on all the major websites, Powells, Amazon, IndieBound. The first edition is written for women seeking men. Second edition is all inclusive for all genders and sexual orientations. And then I have a free offline dating challenge, three days to a red hot date in the real world at offlinedatingchallenge.com.

Srini Rao

Amazing. Well, I'll have to take you up on the challenge and let you know how it goes.

Camille Virginia

Yeah, definitely. Keep me posted.

Srini Rao

And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.