Chris Bailey | How to Calm Your Mind and Increase Your Productivity

Srini Rao: Chris, welcome back to the Unmistakable Creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Chris Bailey: . It's been a hot minute, as they say,

Srini Rao: it has four years almost. Are you serious? Yeah, probably more. I think before even my previous books came out, I think we had you when Hyperfocus came out.

Chris Bailey: Yeah. Yeah, that would have been the last kind of tour, we're gonna have to chat when I have nothing to promote. I know.

Srini Rao: You have a new book out, How to Calm Your Mind, and you are one of those rare few unmistakable creative guests who's here for a third time, which to me always says a whole hell of a lot.

About the first few conversations we've had, but before we get into the book, I wanted to start asking, what was the very first job that you ever had and what impact did that end up having on your life, your career and the choices you've made subsequently?

Chris Bailey: Oh, my, my first job was washing dishes at a shitty fast food, Italian chain, Canada's version of of Olive Garden called East Side Mario's.

And it was actually a wonderful job. I loved it. And I'd spray the dishes off and there'd be like, there'd be sometimes food left. I would never eat the food. Some of the dishwashers would eat the food. I would never stoop to such a level. But rinse the dishes, put them in the tray, slide the tray into the dishwasher, pull the handle down.

It would automatically clean and sanitize them all. And that was my job wash, rinse, repeat times, probably hundreds, thousands of times every night. And I loved it. The feedback was immediate. The people were great. There's the camaraderie. There's sometimes two people on the dish line, one to wash, one to put away.

And it was great and it it did, it formed a lot of the work ethic that I have today because if you didn't keep up and you weren't focused and you didn't, and you weren't in that flow, you would fall behind the dishes would start accumulating at a greater pace and you would just feel like you're in the weeds, but working diligently that was a skill that it taught me.

Srini Rao: It's funny because I don't think I've ever heard anybody speak so positively about a low wage sort of a fast food job the way you just have. I worked at McDonald's, so I have an idea of what you're talking about. But yeah, what is that? Is that like, why do you have such a positive perspective on it?

Or is that only something you recognize now in retrospect?

Chris Bailey: I feel I have that with everything, whatever I do, I try to approach it with that positive spirit or whatever you want to call it. But also the people there were great, like good down to earth people. I think whoever made the hiring decisions at that place realized that camaraderie really does create a lot of motivation in, in, in a workplace.

So I was pretty lucky. Thanks, Kevin, who did all the hiring stuff. Thanks, Kevin. It's

Srini Rao: funny. I wrote this article titled Advice to Freshmen, and one piece of advice I gave in that was that everybody should work in food service at least once in their life, and the reason I think that for me, I found it so invaluable was that it's an incredibly humbling experience.

The thing I think I recognized from being in that role was that for me, this was a pit stop. But for most of those people, this was their life every day. And it just makes you so hyper aware of how privileged you are when you know that is not going to be where you are for life.

Chris Bailey: Oh, it's so true.

And even talking about going off to college. I started there near the start of high school. And I started on the dish line, then worked up to the prep cook and then worked up to being a cook. And then made my way out of the kitchen, was a server needed to talking to customers all the time.

And just being able to relate to different people in different situations and being able to connect with anybody instantly. I definitely agree with that, especially with being a server or somebody who's dealing actively with customers and has to if somebody's pissed off, you have to ease their mind right away and find a way to do and if somebody needs accommodating, you can make people feel accommodated, even maybe if you're in the rush of your life and you have 10 tables that you have to juggle at any one moment. I think there is an immense amount of skill, and if you can find that calm under pressure in such a situation where it's definitely that urgency thing, because ultimately it's dinner at a restaurant.

It's not life or death, right? But it does have that urgency bias where because everything's so urgent, you're running around with your head cut off, basically. But if you can find calm in that chaos, you can find calming chaos beyond. And I think there's a great skill just being able to relate to anybody in the moment.

I remember back in the day when I was, I don't think anybody cares about this, but I'm going to mention it. Feel free to cut this out of the show, but I would go online and look at server tips when I became a server, like how to make more tips. If you touch somebody on the shoulder, it makes you feel more connected than can more connected with you.

And they're more likely to give a bigger tip. And if you If there's kids at the table bend down a bit so you're on, not on your knees, but stooped over, you're more likely to get a better tip. And just these simple rituals of relating to people in a more genuine, deeper way, I think, is a skill worth developing.

Srini Rao: You mentioned that it's not a matter of life or death, and I had to ask, what is the most absurd request you've ever had in a restaurant situation to have somebody accommodate you? Oh. Or

Chris Bailey: accommodate them, sorry. Yeah this, I think Eastside Mario's was the opposite. I don't want to just bash Eastside Mario's, but I do at the same time because it think of, it's like Olive Garden, but a lot worse, like Italian fast food.

And the funniest thing, there is nothing too absurd because it didn't attract that kind of clientele. But the most amazing thing was when somebody would compliment the chef, where, you know, coming from the kitchen, I realized half the things either came frozen or out of a plastic bag. And so they're basically complimenting whatever chemist concocted the Italian wedding soup.

Or the home loaves, which came pre cooked. But the compliments to the chef were I found the most amusing because in my head, I just thought, that came in a bag, man. Yeah. You don't know what you're missing. Go to a real Italian restaurant. Sorry, East Side Mario's. Ha! Yeah,

Srini Rao: no, because I only know this because I remember there were times I'd be at McDonald's and people would come in and just make the most absurd requests.

And you

Chris Bailey: like, what's the most,

Srini Rao: the one that sticks out in my mind is somebody comes to the drive thru and they're like I want just the patties from burger. I don't want the buns. I don't want any of the condiments. And I was like yeah. How do we do that? And I was like just wrap it up and they're like, it's not for me.

It's for my dog. And I'm thinking to myself, shouldn't you be feeding your dog food, not McDonald's?

Chris Bailey: Yeah. Seriously. Oh, that's funny.

Srini Rao: Stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. That was the one that stands out in my mind. And then, of course, people change their mind constantly. They're just like, Oh, actually, I don't want onions on that.

And back then it wasn't all digital. So it was a pain in the ass anytime somebody changed their mind after you put in the

Chris Bailey: order. The digital could also work the other way because now you have all these people stoned out of their gourd at 2 a. m. ordering from McDonald's. Yeah. They want like only bun or only patty or double everything on the inside.

Yeah. I can't even imagine that would be actually quite amusing.

Srini Rao: I think the craziest thing that ever happened to me one night was I was just about ready to go. It was eight o'clock. I'd packed up everything. And then somebody got shot in Riverside, like a few miles away. So half the police department showed up after dealing with this call and we basically had to serve like 30 cops.

Chris Bailey: Wow. Yeah. Doing God's work. I don't know about that, but I remember talking to Jeffrey Zarofsky about food prep and restaurants and what it taught him about managing his time and preparation. And I think the thing that stayed with me the most was this whole idea of getting everything organized in advance.

Srini Rao: He said the reason They can serve so many people so quickly is because everything is actually done in advance. So I'm curious when it comes to managing your time and your energy and your attention and all the things that we're going to talk about as we get into the book, what did you take away from working in food service about all that?

Chris Bailey: Oh, that's an interesting question. I think the agile nature of it taught me how to be agile in the moment at work. So you're exactly right. It's the prioritization. I wouldn't say in advance, I would say in the moment. So right now when I have a lot going on, I keep a, an in the moment list.

So with the, I have a to do list and all that regularly to capture everything. But I also keep an in the moment list of the thing I'm currently working on the top. And the very next thing I'll do after that, then the next thing after, I'm always rearranging it. It's usually digital because I find that to be more efficient.

And I found now that you ask this question, it's interesting, I've never made this connection back to that food service job. But when you have five or six tables and one needs bread, one needs drinks. Another needs salad. Another's main course is up. Another needs, another's on the bill and they're waiting for the machine.

You're always juggling that list of what is next that you have to do. Who you have to serve, what you have to take care of. What's done what you can forget about and I think that's a tactic that I take with me every day is What I'm currently doing at the very top luckily the time frames are a bit longer and the work these days involves More knowledge.

It's more knowledge work based rather than this simple Automatic wrote repetitiveness that was required back in the day but that agile nature, I think, is something that we can all learn, and the ethic that informs. That is the ultimate manifestation of a good work ethic, is always being making progress on something that's important in every moment, and juggling what is next at all times so you can make sure that the next thing you do is important as well.

So I think that on a tactical level that might inform what I do these days. In life, some days are good and some could be better. The same is true for recovery. Both take work. Both take adjustments. Finding your path is a key part of your journey. And then it's all about walking in every day, embrace the good days, the not so good days, and the challenges and acknowledge how you overcame them.

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Srini Rao: I think that makes a perfect segue into talking about concepts in the book. So what was the impetus for writing this book? As your natural

Chris Bailey: Yeah. Yeah. The impetus for this one is a bit different than the others. For hyper focus, I noticed how distracted I was. Productivity project was a matter of just summing up what I learned over the course of experimenting with productivity for a year.

With this one, I had a panic attack on stage in front of about a hundred people. And when I got on stage I felt off in a way. I felt dizzy, nauseous, that sort of thing. And it wasn't until when I started talking that I noticed that there were it felt like there were a dozen marbles in my mouth that my tongue had to dance around.

I felt beads of sweat beginning to form on the back of my neck. And I felt this fight, flight, or free kind of state come onto my mind and realized shortly into this talk that I was having an anxiety attack, a panic attack on stage in that fight or flight mode. And luckily I made it, speaking of rote and automatic, luckily I'd rehearsed and made it through the rest of that talk on automatic mode to a lukewarm reception after.

But after this talk, I basically just stepped back and said, holy. Holy cow, I need to fix this situation and deconstructing this situation. I didn't do it all right after the event. It took a matter of months to deconstruct the situation that I was in. But I realized, A, I was highly anxious. B, I was technically qualified as being burnt out.

And these factors were influencing my capacity not only to enjoy life, but also to be productive every day. My productivity was shot alongside these variables, and so I got to work. I poured over the research I could, I chatted with experts. I brought my usual kind of speaking of work ethic, I suppose I can use that phrase here too that I brought with the previous books to the subject of anxiety and the subject of burnout and this idea of what calm even is, even though it's this elusive.

idea and it took me to a lot of different places and I had to deconstruct a lot of parts about my own philosophy as it relates to productivity and accomplishment and the pursuit of more and stimulation, but I'm grateful for the journey that became this project. Yeah let's get into one of the first things that really struck me is what you call the accomplishment mindset.

Srini Rao: You say that when you were younger, you didn't give much thought to measuring your days. Of course, as we progress through life and accumulate real responsibility, this changes. We're taught to measure our time and often even our worth against the benchmark of accomplishment. As adults, this weight of responsibility can drive us away from serendipitous adventure, such as the nature of the accomplishment mindset.

Once we begin shooting for more success, we tend not to stop. What is it that prevents us from stopping to begin with? Like I, I'm with you, like I, I realized I was like, wait a minute. The more just becomes the end rather than the means to get there.

Chris Bailey: Exactly. Yeah. And I think that's the key is we have this acquisition mentality that we can enter into that's supported by a lot of interesting regions of our brain.

And actually that accomplishment and acquisition mindset is centered around this idea. of more and around dopamine. I feel I need to take a shot for every time anybody on any podcast mentions dopamine, but it has this fascinating connection to the pursuit of more. In fact, a lot of researchers call it the molecule of more.

Because if you look at the neurochemical underpinnings of whenever we either strive to stimulate our mind or strive For greater accomplishment, regardless of what it is that we're trying to acquire, those behaviors are usually structured on top of dopamine. And that, that I think is the key when it comes to this pursuit of more accomplishment where we have this generalized striving where we strive for more at all costs regardless of the context.

And of course, this is something that I found in my own work where I had achieved success by many traditional measures, but I found that the more, extrinsic success I achieved, the more successful I thought I had become, but I felt less successful as I achieved these measures of success by traditional measures.

And this goes back to that dopamine connection where the more we achieve, the more we want to achieve. I, this acquisition mentality actually also leads us to become less present in our life. And this was a fascinating connection that I had the opportunity to make because I found that the more driven I became, the less I was able to focus on what was in front of me.

And it was this weird phenomenon that really came into it came clear through the research where the networks in our brain that are associated with acquiring more of something, of anything, are actually anti correlated with the brain networks that lead us to become present with whatever it is that we're doing and whomever it is that we're with.

It's this dichotomy between the here and now. and striving for more, whether that's more stimulation or accomplishment. And dopamine, I should say, is not all bad. It helps us think logically. It helps us become more creative. It helps our body function. We can't get rid of dopamine and nor should we.

But it's when our behaviors are primarily motivated by dopamine, especially as it relates to pursuing more accomplishment and stimulation that we can get

,

into trouble. But it's interesting how this pursuit of accomplishment often, so ironically, leads us to become less focused and present in the present moment.

And by the way, it also makes us completely miserable so much of the time because the more we strive for more, the less we're actually able to savor the lives that we're already living, the lives that we already have. And I think that's an even bigger cost, setting aside accomplishment for a moment.

We should be able to enjoy our lives, and we should have the ingredients to do it

Srini Rao: reminds me, somebody had asked me in one of the Mastermind workshops we were doing for community, and so what have you done to celebrate the things you've accomplished? I was like, not a damn thing. I usually just go on to whatever is next.

Chris Bailey: Yeah, and this goes back to a productivity idea called the Zygartnik effect, where we remember all the things that are unresolved in our life and quickly forget about all of the things that are resolved, including all of the accomplishments that we've had in our past. And so when we ship a big work project, we think, Oh, What's next?

That's done. No, take a step back. Celebrate it for a moment. You deserve it. But that idea of savoring and actually enjoying our life, the research shows that wealthier people actually savor experiences less than people who experience scarcity in their daily life. Women find it easier to savor things than men.

I'm not sure why but the wealth thing I find absolutely fascinating. If we're less able to enjoy our life when we're wealthy, then what is that wealth for?

Srini Rao: Yeah. Now I remember when we got our round of venture funding and I got my term sheet and I called my brother in law and I just started telling him about all my plans for what I was going to do.

And he said, dude, he was like, Wait a minute. He was like, this is a big deal. Take a moment to like, just stop and savor it.

Chris Bailey: Yeah. Oh yeah.

Srini Rao: And we never do. Speaking of this idea of more, I wanted to bring back a clip from a previous episode with a financial advisor who really made me rethink this whole idea of more.

Take a listen. Okay. Yeah. What is

Chris Bailey: instead of always looking for more, which is part of the American dream, you can fill in the blank, whether it's more money, more fame, more status, more health, more car, we focused on optimizing. Our own definition of enough. And I think with a, that could have such a huge impact on the planet, just from a variety of different global climate change issues, if we weren't consuming as much, but more importantly, I think it would have a huge impact on our happiness.

Srini Rao: What do you

Chris Bailey: make of that? Oh, I love that. And by the way, this is the first time I've ever been on a podcast and heard a clip. This is a first for me. This is great. I absolutely, I could not agree more with that advice. Goals have endpoints, right? Like a goal has an endpoint where when you reach it, you know you have achieved something.

You know you've gotten to the end of that particular journey and there's a tangible difference that is hopefully made in your life or in the lives of other people when you have reached that point of enough of something. But this value of progress that we all seem to have, which I think is great.

We should always make progress towards being better and contributing more and even accomplishing more. I'm not the, against the, this idea of accomplishment but when we don't have an endpoint with our goals, a goal without an endpoint is really just a fantasy. But there are, they're all, there are all these stories that were led to adopt when we assume the default values.

of our modern culture. We have this natural tendency to try to maximize whatever currencies we happen to come into contact with. So we get a few followers on a social network. We want more followers. We get a few dollars in the bank account. We want more dollars in the bank account. We get a few retweets.

We think, why didn't we get more? The last one had even more than that. Adopting this default value that our modern culture has, that the clip referenced. Where we need more to be happy is the common narrative, but when we look around, people aren't happy when they have more.

And the last place we should be looking for happiness advice is the modern world. The modern world. The modern world is not happy. The modern world is not calm. The modern world is not satisfied, is not able to enjoy the fruits of what they're able to accomplish. And I'm speaking in generalities, of course, here.

But this idea of more it needs boundaries. It needs a target to shoot for, a specific target where a tangible difference is made in our lives and in the lives of other people, or else, really, what is it but a blind... Pursuit of misery. Yeah.

Srini Rao: Speaking of blind pursuits, you say that an obsessive pursuit of productivity can negatively affect our mental health, but we do need to set and then work towards a few goals.

And then you go on to say that when achievement drives most of what we do, we run the risk of not taking time to recharge, slow down, or appreciate the fruits of what we accomplish. All of which ironically makes us more vated, more motivated and productive in the long run. We need to spend at least some of our time refueling or we run the risk of burning out.

It's funny, but as I'm talking to you, I'm getting the sense that the paradox of the accomplishment mindset is that it actually diminishes your ability to accomplish

Chris Bailey: things. Exactly. By making us far less present and pulling us out of the moment. And it goes back to that idea of that presence network versus that acquisition network, which are anti correlated on a neurological level.

Where, when we're present in the here and now, we feel connected with what we're doing. We feel a sense of pride. And when we're pulled out of that, when we're acquiring more, we feel less of a presence with whatever it is that we're intending to do. What, one of my favorite ways of combating this to, to define some boundaries.

around this pursuit of productivity and accomplishment is just by having productivity hours each and every day. I actually think this energy is worth channeling. We can channel it so it doesn't make us miserable, and it doesn't lead to a generalized state of striving, but we can compartmentalize This driving into something that I like to think of as productivity hours.

And so today, for example, the day we're recording this pod I have seven productivity hours that I'm spending on my work. And once those hours are up, I am off the clock, baby. I am ordering some weird McDonald's orders with some gummies at 2 a. m. this morning. No I'm not actually. But. But these productivity hours serve as a boundary for this pursuit of accomplishment.

So these seven hours, I'm going to care a lot about accomplishing things. I'm going to care a lot about being productive. I'm going to strive for more of this accomplishment, but I'm also going to use these boundaries as a way of finding this deliberate balance between This daily striving and savoring the fruits of what I'm able to accomplish with these hours.

Because in my opinion, our work, our reward for the fact that we're productive should not be that we have more work to do. But a simple tactic like these productivity hours, it creates an artificial deadline. So we have an end point in sight. We have that end point in sight so the stress of work doesn't have an opportunity to bleed out into other areas of our life.

And again, we're able to find that deliberate balance each and every day to be as accomplished and as as, and be able to enjoy our life at the same time to the level that we want. You know how much I value

Srini Rao: time, especially when it comes to balancing

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There's something that you say that, that really stood out to me. You said when accomplishment matters, focus on productivity. When meaning matters, be sure to set productivity aside. And it just got me thinking about my day to day interactions with my family. My sister just had a baby. So I'm thinking to myself, Oh, when I'm hanging out with them, the last thing I should be thinking about is being productive because that's meaningful.

And yeah, is that going to make me more money make me my career? Anybody to know, but does it add to my life in a meaningful way? Absolutely.

Chris Bailey: Yeah, exactly. And this comes back to that fundamental idea that I think we should all internalize, which is that what lies at the heart of what it means to be productive is intentionality.

The more deliberately we live and work the more accomplished we become in the ways that we actually want. And this goes back to that idea of values as well. We all have different values, and if accomplishment is something that we truly value, then becoming more accomplished can actually lead to a more meaningful life.

But usually we have other values beyond just accomplishment. And there's a great theory of values from Shalom Schwartz where he's essentially, this is the prevailing theory of values in the world right now that researchers are studying and analyzing. And essentially we have 10 different values that we all vary a little bit depending on them all.

Depending on our upbringing, depending on how we're wired, depending on our culture, our environment, our circumstances, our our freedoms, our constraints. But accomplishment, achievement is one of those values, but so is tradition, so is benevolence, universalism, conformity, security, power hedonism is one of them as well, stimulation, self direction which I feel a lot of folks will have that value of self direction who are listening to this podcast, at least I do.

This independent thought of action, we create, we explore, we have this intention behind what we do. And I think this is ultimately the purpose of productivity it's to be able to work and live with greater intention in a way that's hopefully aligned to who we are on a deeper level, because that's the process through which meaning is made, right?

Like when we notice ourselves, when we observe ourselves acting in a way that is congruent with who we are on a deeper level. That's beauty right there. That's a way that we can live a life true to who we are on that deep level. And that's what it comes down to. And we, the modern world that we live inside of is structured largely around that idea of achievement.

Which I think is in a lot of ways okay if we can compartmentalize it. But, there is a lot there are a lot of other things out there that we can value. Universalism is one that is sometimes opposed to that idea of achievement. But universalism includes understanding, appreciation, tolerance protecting people, and nature, and it includes wisdom, and beauty, and justice, and protecting the environment and it also falls under that category.

We. I need to understand, in my opinion, that there are values out there beyond just achievement and productivity, and we might value something that happens to not be valued by the world around us. And this was a situation that I found myself in where I valued achievement to a great extent, and I still do, actually.

I find that I'm able to contribute to others through that achievement, and that this contribution can become an achievement in and of itself, but there are other things that not only we do value, but that are worth valuing beyond just this going all in on one of them.

Srini Rao: One thing I wonder about is.

Recognizing that you're actually burnt out because I feel like people can be burnt out and be completely unaware of the fact that they're burnt out and you talk about the sort of different factors. I don't think I would know if I was actually burned out and I remember the first sign that I had that I was burned out was in June where I took the entire month off of interviews and I realized I was like, Oh my God, I literally not stopped since I started the show.

I've never had a full month without doing interviews. And I spent that month in Brazil, just reading, writing. It was the first like real vacation was like, actually not going to do anymore. Even though I spent a lot of time reading and writing.

Chris Bailey: Yeah, of course. And this was a tough thing that I found to discover myself where I would equate burnout with exhaustion.

And so if I was really tired, even at the end of a day or a week or a month, I would say, Oh, I'm just so burnt out right now, I need a rest. But burnout is this technical construct that is studied by researchers. Christina Maslach is probably the world's pioneering research in this field. And she defines burnout as having three core characteristics.

And the research shows that we do need all three of these in order to be burnt out. We do need that exhaustion. Exhaustion indeed is the first one of burnout. We need to just feel totally wrecked and depleted and ragged as if there's nothing left of us to give. That's number one. Number two is cynicism.

We need to feel as though there's this negativity behind there's just no point to what we're doing. And the third, we need inefficacy. So we need to feel profoundly unproductive. And as if what we're doing does not make a difference in our work, in the lives of other people as well. And one of these things, between exhaustion, cynicism, and feeling unproductive, serves as a stepping stone to a full blown burnout phenomenon.

And you mentioned the interviews. That is what causes burnout, is chronic stress that doesn't let up. Whenever we encounter enough chronic stress in our life, this stress that we face repeatedly, a lot of the stress in our life is obvious, but a lot of this chronic stress is hidden as well in the depths of our life.

Our body gets to that point where it just chemically refuses to mobilize to a stressful incident and we get that combination of exhaustion, cynicism, and being unproductive. So it is this phenomenon that's tough to to understand when we're in it, but it is simple in theory.

And one of these can serve as a tripwire almost.

Srini Rao: So you make this distinction between ceaseless ambition and engagement, which really stood out to me. You said that ceaseless ambition is often a result of over reliance on dopamine. With our mind drenched in dopamine, we don't question why we're striving for more or why we so rarely savor the fruits of our accomplishments.

And I know we've talked about that, but you say that engagement is the process through which we actually become more productive at work and intentional in our lives. And this is especially the case when we're engaged with our most consequential tasks, the ones through which we make the biggest difference.

And that, that struck me so much because I remember we had Tina Seelig, I was a professor at Stanford here, you're talking to us about the fact that you share these students come in with their whole lives planned out. And then that's one group. And the other is basically clueless. And then I go, I'm worried, I don't know what I'm passionate about.

And she said your passion follows your engagement. And this is something I've hammered so hard. I was like, don't follow your passion, follow your curiosity, figure out what you find engaging and then you'll discover what you're

Chris Bailey: passionate about. Oh, it's so true. And that engagement that if you look at what allows you to actually

,

make progress and I realize I'm repeating a part of this quote but when you look at what allows you to actually make progress, it's being focused, it's being engaged with whatever it is that you plan on doing.

And there's a story that I love. When the University of California at Irvine was first built, the school was built without any sidewalks. And what the designers of the university did is they waited and they looked at where people walked around the buildings that were already on the campus. And that's where they laid the sidewalks on top of.

And in other words, the sidewalks at the university are mapped to where people actually want to walk not to where they should, and so you don't have these these other when you have a sidewalk and then there's the path that people actually want to take and it's carved out in the dirt or the grass that's well worn over time, it's called a desire path.

That, because it's where people actually want to and desire to go. And so I think there is so much value and wisdom in that advice to follow engagement. And, if you look at what allows you to naturally be engaged with the work that you're doing it's probably the work that you find interesting.

And that kind of, those kind of tasks, you'll naturally be more productive on. And going back to that idea of burnout, the fascinating thing is that engagement on a psychological level is the opposite of burnt out. So if you look at those three attributes of burnout, exhaustion, cynicism, and being unproductive, when you're burnt out, you're exhausted.

But when you are engaged, you have this fire underneath you like there's a, this driving force behind what you're doing. Instead of being cynical, you feel like there's a light behind what you're doing. And instead of feeling ineffective, you feel as though you're making a profound difference.

And that's the definition of engagement. Those are the characteristics. Engagement too. And I've come to see engagement as a superpower, right? If we can be engaged with whatever it is that we intend to do, I don't think we need to ever pick up another productivity book again in our lives because we can just set out to do something and then do it.

But here's the fascinating thing as well. There are certain attributes of our work dials that we have that either pushes us towards that engagement side of the spectrum or towards that burnout side of the spectrum. And there's six of them. Workload is the first one. The more workload, the more our workload exceeds our capacity to get it all done.

the more likely we are to be burnt out. But when it is roughly equal to our capacity to get things done, we reach a flow state and we're more likely to be engaged. Lack of control or lot of control is the second one with what we work on, how we work on it, when we work on it the methods through which we use, how we collaborate with other people on the work that we have.

The more control we have, the more likely we are to be engaged. The less control we have, the more likely we are to be burnt out. Reward is the third one. So the more fairly we're rewarded financially, socially, intrinsically as well. So when we find our work motivating in and of itself. The more fairly we're rewarded, the more we're, toward that engagement side of the spectrum, when we're experiencing insufficient reward, we're more likely to burn out.

Community is another attribute, another dial that can either be off kilter or in kilter. When we feel connected with the people that we work closely with, we're more engaged. When we have that disconnection we're more likely to be burnt out. Fairness. is another one, the fifth factor of the six.

So the more fair things are at our work in terms of how work is assigned, in terms of how we're rewarded the more likely we are to be engaged. And values is the final factor. So those ten values that I mentioned. Quickly, but the more our work is aligned to what we value, the more we can feel as though we're manifesting our values through our actions and see our work as quite meaningful.

And that leads to engagement as well and away from burnout. But the fascinating thing is with these six dials, with these six factors, Our work can either be aligned to who we are and what we need in order to do a good job, or it can be disaligned to who we are and what we need to do a good job.

And that alignment either leads to burnout or engagement depending on all these different factors. And it's this fascinating phenomenon, but... When we look at what allows us to actually make progress, it's engagement, and this is yet another reason why burnout can be such a devastating phenomenon, not just in terms of how it feels to go through it, but in terms of how it leads us to make far less of a difference.

Srini Rao: Let's talk about the internet and this whole concept of stimuli and being overstimulated and dopamine. You basically talk about this concept called super stimuli where you say super stimuli provide us with more dopamine than everything else we could be spending our time and attention on even if that enjoyment is short lived.

And obviously, I think this is not as you, not news to any of us, as you joked, we should do a shot every time somebody says the word dopamine on a podcast. But yeah, you talked to me about this because you talk about being able to control the amount of stimulation you allow.

Chris Bailey: Yeah.

Yeah. So super stimuli we're all familiar with them cause we all tend to them, but are these highly processed. exaggerated versions of things that were biologically programmed to enjoy. And take, takeout is a great example of this. Fire up Uber Eats, you'll see hundreds of examples of super stimuli, things that are fatty, salty, sweet.

All at your fingertips regardless of the hour of the day if you happen to live in a big city as I do. You're so right that most of these super stimuli, most of the things that are highly dopaminergic that we engage with for the sake of the dopamine hit itself happen to be found in the digital world.

And so pornography is a super stimuli version of something of intimate time with a partner which we're biologically programmed to enjoy. Social media is a simulated version of social connection which we're biologically programmed to enjoy. Because because these behaviors are primarily rewarded with dopamine.

We don't feel that presence with whatever it is that we're doing. And dopamine is this fascinating neurochemical that we think of it sometimes as a pleasure chemical, but the truth is that it's more of a chemical of anticipation of pleasure. That's the feeling that dopamine provides.

So whenever we get a hit of this stuff. We feel as though pleasure is right around the corner. And there is, there's a mechanism in our mind, the novelty bias whereby for every new and novel thing we direct our attention at, our mind rewards us with a hit of dopamine. And indeed, of the factors that contribute to the size, scale of a dopamine hit novelty is number one.

Direct effect is number two, so how much something actually affects our life. And number three is genetics, so how we're programmed to respond to dopamine. Tho those also influence the size of the hit. But on the internet, novelty seems to be the factor. That changes the most relative, relatively speaking.

And so we get a hit when we check Instagram and get a hit of novelty on our Explore tab there. And then after that, we check email and get another hit of novelty and get another hit of dopamine as well. Get another hit of anticipation, but because we're constantly anticipating pleasure, we never.

truly feel as though we've arrived. We never truly feel present because there's always this chemical motivation that is propelling us to continue behaving in a certain way. But that never really truly makes us feel satisfied. And you alluded to these different heights of stimulation in the question.

Everything that we tend to, over the course of the day, lives at a different height of stimulation, depending on how much dopamine it releases. And so at the very zenith.

of these heights of stimulation. But then you start to work your way downward. And in the middle band, we have activities like like playing board games with friends and and grabbing a coffee with somebody and writing and doing creative work. Now, as we go down these heights of stimulation, the activities that are plotted on it, they release a bit less dopamine, but they release other chemicals that make us feel connected and actually present and satisfied with how we're spending our time, our attention, and our energy.

And generally speaking, these activities also lead us to calm and away from anxiety and away from burnout. And they lead us to presence and productivity where productivity and focus feel more effortless. And it's fascinating when you look at the research on this topic of dopamine where dopamine begets dopamine.

The more dopamine we want, the more we crave. And because of this, stimulation begets stimulation, and distraction begets distraction. The more distracted we become, the more we want to continue distracting ourself in order to stay at that highly stimulated level. And it's hard to come down, but it's worth coming down because of not only the beautiful effects of calm where we actually enjoy our experiences far more, we're able to savor them, but because of that productivity benefits.

And because of the presence benefits where we spend our more, our time in a far more meaningful way. Yeah.

Srini Rao: Let's speak briefly about analog experiences and we will wrap this up because you make this distinction between analog and digital. And you say that when we want to do an activity efficiently, we should do it digitally.

And when we want our actions to be meaningful, we should do things analog way. This way we can use the internet for what it's good at saving us time adding features to our lives and connecting us with others while avoiding pesky digital rabbit holes. And you and I were just talking about the fact that I just gotten this remarkable tablet as a reason to basically stop stimulation.

And the funny thing is people have two reactions to remarkable when they buy it, they're like, this thing is overpriced. I might as well just buy an iPad. I think those people miss the point. Like it's intentionally very limited in terms of what it can do.

Chris Bailey: Yeah. And I think we have forgotten about the analog world in a really big way.

And if you look at how, pardon me, how we spend our time throughout the day I think this statistic was done in 2021. Where researchers found that the average person now spends over 13 hours a day looking at screens. And when I encountered this statistic, I didn't really believe it. But then I started looking at my own life, my own world.

And notice that I was just bouncing around between screens in this digital world, never really slowing down or maybe more importantly coming down. And meaning is found in what is slow and analog, and especially things that are analog at that lower height of stimulation. If you're sitting around a campfire with a few people just watching the flames moving.

In and out of conversation if you're grabbing brunch with some people who are these people who are able to not check their phone for a meal if you're playing cards with your family, if you're passing the time by on a road trip with your family, these are little moments that produce an inordinate amount of meaning simply because we're present.

with them. And when it comes to presence is this topic that it's tough to, it doesn't really have handles, right? But we know it when we feel it, when we're in the moment, in an experience. And the research shows that the analog experiences lead to far greater presence because they release a concoction of chemicals that counteract all of the dopamine that is in our mind.

They release oxytocin, which is the chemical of connection when we feel connected to other people. Real people are one of the most beautiful thing, the most beautiful part of our analog world. Serotonin is released when we do something that makes us feel proud. I'm learning the piano right now for this reason.

I feel a sense of pride when I play something that, that is enjoyable. We feel a sense of euphoria when we experience an endorphin rush, like during exercise. And we do experience dopamine as well, but just in, in smaller amounts that are released in response to these activities. And we all have activities that we can, like the tasks on The Remarkable, move into the analog world.

And the way I think about the activities that we do in both, we we can visualize a Venn diagram of sorts, where one circle is the analog only things that we do. Another circle is the digital only things that we do. So analog only circle things might be brushing our teeth or spending time in nature.

Digital only things we all have examples of social media, email, et cetera. And where they meet in the middle, those are the activities that we can bring into the analog without really losing too much in the way of efficiency. Now, if efficiency is the only thing that matters. Then it might, something might be worth doing digitally, like keeping a to do list, for example.

Though I would argue that slowing down when you plan leads to more deliberate execution later on. But tasks like writing and brainstorming, they feel different on a big whiteboard or on a remarkable that you can hunker down over. With a cup of coffee and not be able to tab over to another window to rise to a new height of stimulation once again.

Time with people, right? When we spend time with others in the analog world, we feel far more depth of meaning in a circumstance like that. Reading a book. I love the physicality of a book and not being able to, again, tab over to a different application to rise to a new height of stimulation.

Games, playing board games with people is one of my favorite things to do. My wife and I love nerding out with each other and with friends over board games, and it's so much more rewarding than than just playing some mindless game on a phone that moves you from one point in time to another. And so there are so many different activities that we can bring into the analog and so we don't have to tend to them digitally and calm our mind and find that.

That deliberateness at the same time.

Srini Rao: This has been amazing as I expected it would be. So I have one final question for you, which is how we finish all of our interviews. The unmistakable. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something

Chris Bailey: unmistakable?

What is it that makes something unmistakable? I think when something is so unique and so different and. is based around novelty that's structured on top of depth. Novelty is this idea that over time I'm finding myself more and more fascinated with, not just for the dopamine connection, but because everything that we tend to over the course of our day, over the course of our life, has a varying amount of novelty, but also a different type of novelty.

Novelty on the internet is so often structured on top of just our basal responses, whether that's mating with a partner or eating good food or getting angry or tribal or something like that. In fact Facebook whistleblower Francis Hogan reduced Instagram to do things bodies and comparing lifestyles.

And I think that describes much of social media and the internet and the novelty that is to be found there. But I think when something is novel in a way that is not only unexpected, but also unexpectedly, that I think is what makes something unmistakable. Amazing. I can't think I'd love to hear my answers and my previous answers to that.

Give me two. I probably completely different.

Srini Rao: Probably one of my favorite answers I've ever heard to that question. Oh that's good. Okay. Yeah. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story, your wisdom, and your insights with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you, your work, the book, and everything

Chris Bailey: else you're up to?

Yeah. Thank you so much for, we'll have to make it so I don't have something to plug next time. The book is called how to calm your mind, finding presence and productivity in anxious times. And I think it's the best thing I've ever created, and I'm completely totally biased but I'm quite proud of what I learned along this journey, and it's helped me immensely.

And so the book is Wherever Books Are Sold, and my website is chrisbailey. com. I also do a podcast with my wife called Time and Attention that we nerd out about this stuff over, but How to Calm Your Mind is where you can find my latest thinking these days.

Srini Rao: Amazing. And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.