Join us as we learn how to work less, play more, and build empires while living our best lives.
In this episode, we talk to Dan Martell, the world's most popular SaaS coach, about his first book, "Buy Back Your Time". Martell shares his secrets on how entrepreneurs can scale their businesses while avoiding burnout, by investing in high-value work that brings fulfillment. Join us as we learn how to work less, play more, and build empires while living our best lives.
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Dan Martell: The same thing happens to two people. One person decides to go left, the other person decides to go right. What was it that they understood? I think for me like I definitely had a belief that I didn't die when I was a teenager. And there was a moment when I almost took my life and somebody, God showed up in my life to save me. And I've just always felt like it was my responsibility to take advantage of that second chance. And because of that, I just don't waste the day. That's the meaning and the story that supported my journey, and that's the message I try to share with people anyways. But I don't know, it's a crazy scenario, but you're right, like there is definitely a correlation of, like even the fact that I went to jail twice, like I had a 98% chance of coming back and staying in the system for the rest of my life. Like I definitely beat the odds, but I still tried as best I can to figure out what belief, what is the core belief? What is the primary belief that I had that allowed me to snowball into a different journey? I'm Sereni Rao, and
Srini: This is the Unmistakable Creative Podcast, where you get a window into the stories and insights of the most innovative and creative minds who have started movements and built thriving businesses.
Dan Martell: Businesses, written
Srini: best-selling books, and created insanely interesting art. For more, check out our 500th episode.
Dan Martell: Archive@unmistakablecreative.com
Srini: Thank you so much for taking the time to join us.
Dan Martell: Oh, my pleasure, man. Super honored. My goal is to make this, and I know you've had incredible guests, but why not call our shots? One of the best podcast interviews I've ever done. That's the goal.
Srini: Ben, no pressure at all, but we had you here. I was looking back at the archives, trying to figure out when we last had you here, and it was about eight years ago. And since then, you have written a new book called Buy Back Your Time, which recently became a Wall Street Journal bestseller - all of which we all get. But before we get into the book, I wanted to start asking you, what did your parents do for work and how did that end up shaping what you've ended up doing with your own life?
Dan Martell: And career?
Yeah, it's a fun question. My mom had four kids in our family, so she was a dedicated mom-maker of just family and stuff. She actually ran a fish and chip wagon when I was in my kind of early teenage years because she and my dad just found that a fascinating idea of just like fish and chips as in a, like what we would call it, a food truck.
But back in the day she was Mrs. Chips, so she ran that probably for four years when I was 9, 10, 11, 12. And my dad was, he started off as an electrical engineer, and electric engine maintenance guy, and eventually worked his way up to shop Foreman and then eventually took over the whole plant that did electric engine repair and maintenance and stuff.
And you know what, how that shaped me was a hundred percent being in a car with somebody that was high-level sales, selling to Fortune 2000 companies. Eventually, the company was Westinghouse. And then eventually, they got bought by Siemens, which is a large company from Germany. And yeah, I pretty much got an MBA sitting next to my dad in the early days of car phones and whatnot
Srini: Previously, in our conversation, you got into quite a bit of trouble when you were younger; you were arrested. What I'm curious about is how somebody like you, coming from the background you did, ended up on that trajectory, because it just doesn't seem like the kind of environment that would lead to that outcome based on what you're telling me about yours.
Srini: Putting a kid who's causing them trouble in foster care brings a whole level of dynamics that I'm sure probably would require an hour's of conversation just on that alone. But what was the impact of that on your relationship with your
Dan Martell: Parents? When I was younger it was pretty traumatic. It was this weird dynamic where when my parents got divorced when I was 13, I definitely played them against each other. So my mom was super lenient. Almost as if she wasn't around - let us do whatever we wanted, would even go to the liquor store for us when we were 15, 16, that kind of thing.
So there was that, and then there was my dad, in his home, which was the opposite structure-wise, but not as present as often. So he gave us a lot more time to get in trouble in a completely different set of ways. And I would go back and forth between them. Yeah, it was, like every kid, I think I always as a boy wanted, and craved my dad's affection and acceptance on that level. And then on my mom's side, there was a part of me that was like, I knew that what she was doing wasn't really being a strong mom, so I was upset with her, but also didn't complain because I obviously enjoyed the freedom.
It was a lot of stuff we had to work through as a family. It's crazy today
Srini: End up in this kind of trouble too? Or were their paths more, less fraught than?
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Again, that's ikeausa.com. Speaking of getting through this, less of a journey from one jail to another, than to a rehab facility that turns around your life. And two questions come from that. In the US we effectively have what they call the school-to-prison pipeline.
I remember talking to a guy who had spent something like 25-plus years in prison here on the podcast, and he was telling me the way
Dan Martell: I would say similar behaviors. More luck, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, definitely in trouble with the law, different levels of trouble and I think because I ended up in such serious trouble, it scared them a little bit. You'd have to ask them. I've never really talked to them a hundred percent on that, but, there's an element of me getting clean and sober at 17 that I think affected them and caused them to go think through their decisions. Yeah. They just got through it a little less scathed than I did. Black voices are making an impact this month and beyond. Keep listening to Discover one of our favorite shows, courtesy of Acast Recommends. There's a lot of misinformation out there, but the truth remains indisputable. I'm Dr. Rashad Ritchie, and every day I'll be bringing you a full dose of truth on my show. Indisputable. We cover criminal justice, social justice, politics, racism, police brutality, and everything in between. I even make room for conservative voices, but not before they step into the bullpen, where I debate them on their policy agenda. In January, I hosted, "They Called Him Radical," a special tribute
Srini: I guess the reason I ask that question is that I feel like context matters so much here. When it comes to the background that you're from, like it or not, race plays a role in all of this, particularly in the United States. Like we can't argue that it doesn't.
Dan Martell: Yeah, I mean it's one of those situations, I get the call often from, last week a woman who reached out about her husband or her son, he's 28 and within the last year went from a normal 28-year-old to raging cocaine addict. And what happened for me is just I got diagnosed with ADHD when I was 11 and started to have kind of personality issues around personal self-worth and just values and anger issues. And I learned, later on in therapy that a lot of it came down to just my dad being away from the home, traveling so much and then I just became unmanageable at home. My parents eventually just asked the social worker that we were working with as a family to place me in foster care. Like essentially just I, they couldn't handle me. I was just hyperactive, and angry. And what happened was is I got put in foster care for a little bit. I didn't last too long cuz again I acted out there and, my foster dad, Dave, just couldn't deal with me. I, it's a funny story today, absolutely not at the time, but essentially I lit off about 12 roaming candles in his living room by accident and almost burned down his house.
Dan Martell: Yeah, what happened for me was I was, it was towards the end of my program in rehab. It was this place called Portage, and it was built on an old church camp. And I was there for about 11 months at that point, and I was helping Rick, the maintenance guy, clean out one of the cabins and it was just full of stuff. And in one of the rooms, there was this old 486 computer with a yellow book on Java programming sitting next to it. I had never touched a computer in my life, but I just opened up the book and it spoke to me because it was in English.
I just thought it would be in like, hexadecimal numbers or zeros and ones like it's computer coding. I didn't know what it looked like, but I had some assumptions, and the fact that it read like English, I was like, oh, that's interesting. It's if this, then that. And so I started up the computer and just followed chapter one of this book and the instructions were fairly clear.
Within 20 minutes, I got the computer to say hello world. And I don't know, it was nuts cuz I was
Dan Martell: Media is for me. Yep. I think that's the, everybody I think has some external expression. Elizabeth Gilbert talks about it in Big Magic, or it could be whatever. It could be people, it could be some level of manufacturing, or my oldest son right now, he's all into Tech Deck, so he is doing fingerboard tricks and he has built this crazy city landscape out of cardboard.
I think we all have it. It's just sometimes, as young adults or adults, we get on this path of trying to do things for external validation that isn't really aligned with our heart and we forget to keep searching. So it sounds like your media stuff, you were lucky to find it later in life because there's probably a scenario or world where that doesn't happen.
And you could be successful relative to your career, but it may not be the thing that lights your soul on fire. And speaking of...
Srini: Let's get into the book. What was the impetus for writing this book? Why this book and why now?
Dan Martell: Now? Yeah. I am a huge pro-entrepreneur fan. I think it's so cool that business owners wake up every day to make the world a better place for everybody else. To I know that sounds self-serving as an entrepreneur, but this goes for even the person that starts the lawn mowing company, the plumbing company, the home-building company, the marketing agency, the church, the CrossFit gym; you name it.
I'm just like, I just find that so cool that people dedicate themselves to solving problems for others. And what happened was just because all of my friends are predominantly business owners, I just started seeing a lot of challenges come up in their lives that I obviously had gone through, 'cause I was a lot further along in my journey.
But I had a completely different perspective on how to solve these problems. And the book is really designed to help entrepreneurs build businesses they don't grow to hate. And that was the problem I wanted to solve because I had a very unique perspective on it. And it's called the buyback principle.
Essentially, the philosophy I have around the way I look at my calendar, my time, and my
Srini: It sounds like the way that worked for you is that writing and producing
Srini: One of the things you say in the opening of the book is that the little-known secret to reaching the next stage of your business is spending your time on only the tasks that you excel at and truly enjoy, that add the highest value, usually in the form of revenue to yours. Likely, two to three tasks fit that description. Every other task you're handling is slowing your growth and sucking the life from you, and you should clear it from your calendar. You packed this book with so many different frameworks and reference points.
So, since I have you here, I figure I'll be selfish. Let's use me as the case study and walk me through the combination of the buyback principle, the pain line, and how to start implementing all this in the quadrants.
Dan Martell: That's you. Yeah, so I think the first thing we have to figure out is your buyback rate. So Rinni, if I was coaching on scaling your life and your business, I would, first, try to figure out what is that number. And the buyback rate is a simple formula, and I know as soon as I do the math, I'm gonna lose half the audience, but bear with me. I'll make it fun. Essentially you take your income, what do you make?
And for entrepreneurs, it's what they pay themselves as a salary. It's what they take as distributions or profit per year. And it's also all these discretionary expenses, right? If you think of it, I get people don't wanna pay taxes, but those are real benefits that your business provides to you. You're just spending them on things, right? So then you have your income. So that amount of money, let's just keep it simple numbers, call it a hundred thousand dollars, right? You might pay yourself 70, you get in profit, and then you got another 10k a year in discretionary expenses like your cell phone bills and stuff that maybe
Dan Martell: Doesn't. Yeah. Yeah, no, race plays a part for sure. I've seen it personally - some white Caucasian kids were in jail for two weeks when the same activity was done by somebody of color and they had three months. Like, why? Yeah. I see it all the time. So yeah, I think I'm a data guy. I'm a software guy, so I think the data proves it as well. Just geography, background, and skin color - there are clear data. You can't deny that there are biases in there. But at the same time, I'm also friends with a ton of people that have gone through and done worse than me, and they have completely different backgrounds, ethnic backgrounds, religious backgrounds, et cetera, and they've created incredible lives. So I think, no matter who you are, there's definitely a story of somebody like you that has created something special that, if you choose to give yourself permission to, you can associate that potential. It's available to everybody.
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Srini: I've seen this firsthand in my life.
And it's funny you mentioned, hiring somebody to outsource podcast guests and I would never do that for one reason because that honestly is what I think sets us apart, is the fact that I go out of my way to find people that aren't on other shows. And so that is one thing I would never outsource specifically because I enjoy it and I think it, it's one of those things that sets me apart.
I was like, yeah, I. Nobody's gonna have my filter. Yeah. We get podcast guest booking agencies and I'm like, yeah, I won't hire you guys. You can pitch us all day long, but I don't want you to source my guests.
Dan Martell: I mean, I've
Dan Martell: For me, but you could try, I would push back a little bit. You could give an assistant, yeah. A criteria filter to go in source for you to do a final edit and then have them reach out on your behalf potentially. Yeah, and I call it in the book, I call that the 10-80-10. So there are ways to still get leverage, even in highly creative endeavors. And I break them down into Tom Clancy, the author, Andy Warhol, the painter, and obviously Oprah, the media mogul. There are actually ways that, even with Buffett, if you actually see how the highest-level people out there do it, you would see these patterns naturally emerge. And then you can just be inspired by like Steve Jobs did this at Apple - that's a 10-80-10 rule.
I got it from watching Steve interact with Johnny Ives in the design studio. Right? Like he wasn't the one sitting there running the CNC machine to do prototypes, but he was definitely involved in the creative inputs that would push the boundaries of the products they would make. But then they had a team that would prototype, try stuff, and source stuff and all that stuff. So
Srini: I'd mentioned to you earlier that we'd started this consulting business where we're driving YouTube ads to my YouTube channel, and I realized, I was like, you know what? I'm not an expert in YouTube ads. I'm an expert in this note-taking app and the video tutorials I created. So I finally hired somebody to manage all of it, and I saw the sales basically triple after I hired them. Even though it was costing me $800 a month, I was like, okay, that was a great investment.
Dan Martell: Easy peasy. This, but again, all of that without using the lens of your calendar. Me, I don't know if that was the right move. Yeah. So that's what's interesting, and people are like, "Who should I hire next?" I go, "It's literally a principle in a process." So if...if you've done the time and energy audit and then showed me what it is, then I can help you be creative about how to find that individual.
Because even that idea, right? Some people are like, "Okay, so I've got bookkeeping that's 10 hours a week and I could pay somebody a low dollar. I have my email and calendar stuff. I have this, like, how do I hire somebody to do all of that?" That's actually interesting because my first assistant had a background in finance.
Why? Because of that, I made that a prerequisite because it was a big part of what I was doing as a solopreneur. So you can hire somebody that's got a bookkeeping background that can also process your emails in your inbox and publish them on social media for you. That is one person. Yeah. 'Cause he
Srini: Tell me about the four quadrants that you talk about, which are, the investment quadrant, the production quadrant, and the other two somehow didn't make it into my notes, but I know there are four quadrants that we
Srini: Yeah. In the interest of time, can you just give us an overview of playbooks, then I have two things that I want to wrap up with.
Dan Martell: Yeah. In the playbooks, the big idea is the camcorder method. Most people sit down, they read the EMyth or Sam Carpenter's work on the system, and they're like, I'm gonna create SOPs, standard operating procedures.
Most SOPs go stale within a month, meaning that you write 'em and nobody updates 'em, nobody uses 'em, and then they're not even accurate because systems and software change so often that if you made them too detailed, it wouldn't work. The way I do is I just record everything I do. So anytime I'm about to out-task or buy back my time around, I just record myself doing the task.
As simple as when I was doing my YouTube videos, I would record myself publishing the videos and uploading the scripts and sending the emails and adding the blog posts, and setting up a publish, Twitter, LinkedIn, and all this stuff. And I did that for probably six weeks until I eventually just transferred it over to my executive assistant and she watched the recordings.
So I had probably four or five recordings of me doing it, cuz I used to do it every Monday
Srini: In the interest of time, I want to go through two things. One is the email GPS. As I read this book, I realized I have a virtual assistant. I realized that I'm not utilizing her to the extent that I could, and calendar and email were one of those things that I was just like, "Yeah, I do spend too much time here." And it's actually not that much. It's 10 minutes a day. But even that, I'm just like, "Okay, why am I doing this?" So talk to me about this email GPS idea because when I saw this I was like, "Perfect, this is great." It's all written down clearly, and I can basically convert it into a template for my VA.
Dan Martell: Now, the best thing you should do, Sheina, is just give her a copy of my book and tell her to read the chapter. That's what everybody's doing right now, which is awesome. Yeah, it's just fun.
And then they'll have more context for finding opportunities to actually support you, which I think is the big idea with a great executive assistant—they're proactively telling you what they could take over, ways they can support you, which is cool. But yeah, email GPS is the idea that everything that comes into my world is processed by somebody else first, and only the things I need to review and respond to are brought into my life.
And I learned this watching Richard Branson—I was fortunate in 2016, I got invited to his home in Switzerland and I spent a week with him. He's the CEO of 400 companies, each one has a CEO, and that group of companies has two CEOs that run it.
I watched this billionaire, who every other billionaire wants to be like; he doesn't do email. He sits down and has breakfast with his executive assistant Helen every day and for 60 to 90 minutes they review only the things that Helen can't
Dan Martell: They were born in a way that they are just going to win no matter what. And so those people are not good models to follow for the rest of us, what we should be doing is we should be creating a safe environment in which we can be as vulnerable as we need to be to not only hold on to the possible but to actually increase our chances of the pro.
And we don't create those environments for ourselves as a society, as a government, as businesses, as a culture in America, we tend not to create vulnerable environments that allow us to be safe enough to be exposed enough to actually increase our probabilities. So what we do is we look at all these examples of people that don't need that, and we try to live like them. Yeah. And then we fail, and then we experience unnecessary suffering. And then, we hold on. We can't find safe places to explore our vulnerabilities and our flaws. And the fact that it's not probable for us.
Dan Martell: You can put all of our tasks into, yeah, delegate and invest or production. It's called the Drip Matrix, so the Drip Matrix essentially is an X-Y quadrant, a two-by-two matrix for things that light you up and then things that make you a lot of money. So in the... and it's in chapter two of the book, page 21. And what happens is, when you start off, you want to, as you said, like that 95-5 thing, like 95% of the stuff you're doing doesn't really add that much.
In the bottom left corner, you have this quadrant called delegation, right? And delegation is stuff that immediately you should stop doing, right? So these are the $1 sign red things in your life. And the way we look at it sometimes, it's called the three D's, right? So what are the three D's? Delegate, delete, or defer? So I just walked people through that concept really quick just to make sure that as fast as possible, they just free up their calendar and I think so. Even the delete side, they're doing things that they should just stop doing
Dan Martell: Yeah. It's tough to understand because I still can't, when people ask me all the time, they're like, what did you figure out that, like even in the rehab center I went to there's a lot of relapsing. Not everyone, I'm, I may be the only multimillionaire that came out of the program, so I don't know.
But I, because I still literally go back and I speak to the kids every four months. It's been a big part of my life and many other things since then. But I don't know. I always think about the idea of PTSD and PTGD, post-traumatic stress disorder, which is sometimes how people respond to traumatic moments.
In those same traumatic moments, those same scenarios. Someone else responds with a post-traumatic growth disorder, which is my path and journey and truth. It's one of those binary things. The same thing happens to two people. One person decides to go left, the other person decides to go, what did they do, what was it that they understood? I think for me like I definitely had a belief. I didn't die when I was a teenager
Srini: To be like them. So given this idea of 10x vision and what Greg said in that clip, how do you basically?
Dan Martell: Couple those two things together? It's beautiful. I, what I love about what Greg said is finding a safe place to explore our flaws. I don't know. There's just something that really resonated with me just coming back from a ski trip with 48 incredible entrepreneurs. And realized that I had that safe place with many of the people and the conversations I had.
To me, the 10x vision is essentially this philosophy that it's easier to do 10x than 2x. Like a lot of people, they get really anxious when they think of their life, so they're like, "Oh my God, doubling my business is gonna mean double the pain and double this."
And it's, 10x is great because 10x forces you to go, "Oh, I couldn't even do that without fundamentally changing the paradigm of how I approach my business," which is actually what I'm hoping to shape with that framework. Because that's really the big idea, is just focus on things that scare you, and then use that as
kind of either an aspirational or inspirational kind of outcome to push you forward to do the things that will scare you. That'll force you to question your, what I
Dan Martell: you're gonna accomplish. Nope. I'm saying allow yourself to dream and in that act, even if you didn't ever come close to it, it's just a, it's a forcing function or pull mechanism. The reason why I mean I learned this is just from people. Most people quit companies because they haven't given them a future that they see themselves in. When they run out of runway, they just run out of you. Yeah. So if I'm working, like a lot of my clients that I coach, when they have like key people that quit, I'm like, they didn't quit cause they didn't like the work. They just didn't see how their personal goals and their future alignment would be supported by your vision, because you never communicated it to them.
So even just forcing yourself to ask yourself like, what am I doing this for? Climbing the ladder of success. Like what is at the top of that ladder? What are you trying to do? Because if you don't have that, how are we supposed to create alignment? And what if you have that ladder leaning against the wall, and when you get to the top, you're like, oh, crap I
Srini: It's funny when you're talking about this 10x idea. Julian Smith has been mentoring me and I remember one of our last calls, he had given me this way to think about things. He said, when you think about these metrics, he said, "Run your plans for the day through. How could I add a zero to them?"
Srini: Let's wrap this up by talking about this idea of 10X vision, and I wanna bring back a clip from an episode where I had a conversation with Greg Hartell, which I thought would make an interesting contrast to talking about this idea of 10X. Take a listen.
Srini: Amazing. I know you've got to answer one final question, which is how we finish all of our interviews here at the end. Creatively. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something?
Srini: I appreciate that because I think what you're not saying is be unrealistic and have delusional dreams of what
Dan Martell: Is this me? It's just a fun forcing function for you too, like, because you've mentioned it, is I have gotta shift the paradigm, right? Like, how do I shift my paradigm around marketing and sales and leadership and growth and output? Because if it's just more of the same thing you're doing, that actually is not the answer. It never is. Because if you could just do more of what you're doing, you'd already have the results you're after, and you don't. So how you're approaching it is completely non-supportive. That's why I think there's been a groundswell around, the book and the ideas in the book because it challenges how everybody's thought about hiring and growing their business.
Dan Martell: Is it unmistakable that they are a hundred percent themselves?
The way I explain it, if the person that you show up in the world as is the same person I would see if I was recording you 24/7 physically and externally recording your thoughts in your mind, then that is what makes somebody unmistakable. It's why we admire those kinds of people in the world.
Srini: I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story and your wisdom and insights with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you and your work?
Dan Martell: Work, the book, and everything that you're up to? Yeah. I'm Dan Martell at DanMartell.com and Dan Martell on all social platforms—YouTube, TikTok, LinkedIn, and Instagram. Instagram Stories is my jam. It's my favorite output for social. And then the book is at BuyBackerTime.com. It is available in all retail stores, get your copy in person, or better yet, send your assistant to go get it or get it on Amazon wherever you want. But I do have a free workbook that you can download that supports a lot of the exercises in the book at BuyBackerTime.com.
Rinni, it's been an honor, man. I really appreciate ya. Yeah.
Srini: Absolutely. And for everyone listening, we will wrap up the show with that.
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