Emily Jaenson | Why Not You? Empowering Women to Chase Their Dreams and Break Stereotypes

Srini Rao

Emily, welcome to the unmistakable creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Emily Jaenson

Sounds good.

Emily Jaenson

I am so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I found out about you and by way of your policies and the thing that caught my attention was that you're the first female general manager of a triple A baseball team in nearly 20 years. And as I told you before we hit record, I had to go do my research on what triple A baseball was and learned that you are basically a badass and like the CEO of a baseball team. But before we get into your career, your work and all that, I want to start by asking where in the world did you grow up and what impact did that end up having on your life and your career?

Emily Jaenson

I love that you started with that question because it had such a tremendous impact on my life and career. I grew up in a small town in Illinois called Lake Villa. 3 ,300 people lived in my town. Three towns combined went to one high school.

which gave us a good size class of 500 in my graduating class. But I was a small town girl who lived just far enough away from Chicago that I had the allure of the city without ever getting to be there. So I had this very rural upbringing where I wanted more. I loved my time with my family and I'm the middle child of two brothers. I played a lot of sports growing up.

But I definitely lived that small town lifestyle and I wanted big city. I had big dreams with zero mentors, no one to really aspire to be. I mean, the career paths I saw around my town were essentially teachers or counselors or coaches. And I didn't know what that meant for me to have a larger vision, but it was very fuzzy and unclear. I was lucky enough to get the help of my high school counselor.

who was like, hey, you're in the top of the class. You can get into University of Illinois. The early application deadline is now. Come to my office. Let's fill out your application. Like this is how blind I was. I didn't even know where to start. I know I wanted to go to college, but not what to do. So thank goodness for those people in our lives that helped put us on the right path. And so.

I filled out the application, wrote my essay, sent it in, and before homecoming that year, I got my acceptance letter into Illinois. And I was only a few from my high school who got in. And when I went away to college, I literally cried in my dorm room for the first month of school because I was so homesick. And I was just like, not even a small fish in a big pond. I was a minnow in the ocean. Like I thought I was...

Emily Jaenson

smart and great at sports. And then all of a sudden I'm at this D1 school and my neighbors across the hall in my dorm room are already sophomores because they got such high scores on their AP tests. So I was like humble pie every day, homesickness, just, I was miserable when I was supposed to be living this great college life. And it was one day that I realized like, Emily, you gotta get it together.

because this is part of your, this is your dream, this is your chance to expand your life. You need to start behaving like the person you want to become. And that's when I really started to realize like I need to become a more confident person. I needed to define what my goals are in this new section of my life. And I need to show up every day like the person that I, my future self would be happy to be. And so that.

really was just such a pivotal moment so early in my life, but really changed me forever.

Srini Rao

We'll come back to that. The reason I started with that question was because I watched your TED talk and I knew that and I was like, this is why I want to understand this. But I'm always fascinated by people who grow up in small towns, particularly with such a small population. So tell me about the social dynamics and what you learn about human relationships in a situation. Seems like everybody knows everybody because I always wonder if small towns are accurately portrayed on television. So you see a show like Virgin River.

Emily Jaenson

Yeah. Yeah, you know, I think part of those shows real, like based on reality and people's real life experiences, my mom was the elementary school librarian. I had my older brother was just one grade ahead of me.

Srini Rao

One Tree Hill, you know, whatever it is. It seems like there are these very tight knit communities and parts of it seem just wonderful parts of it seem like they would be annoying as hell.

Emily Jaenson

So essentially my like social group spanned two years of people with the guys in his class and the friends in my class. And then my younger brother is five years younger than me. And so we had a really deep network because we also played sports. And so we expanded, I think, as far as we could within our little town.

And yeah, you know everybody, you go to the grocery store and you run into somebody. My parents were involved in church. So of course that gave us ties in the community. The high school was one of those high schools where I had a lot of people make fun of me in college because we were old school. We wore the football players, the girls wore the football players jerseys to school on Friday.

Srini Rao

Wow. Well, so one thing I want to tell me about sports because it seems like you mentioned and you played a lot of sports as a kid. Like, was this just kind of hardwired into your family was just part of the DNA of how you were brought up and like what made you fall in love with sports?

Emily Jaenson

Yeah, well, my baseball career started when I was, gosh, I think I was six and I started keeping score with my mom at my brother's, my older brother's baseball games. And just really, I played tee ball. That was the first uniform I wore was a tee ball uniform. I was the only girl on the boys team. And I definitely fell in love with the game. When you grow up in a small town, I think that you're...

You're very lucky if you love sports and play sports because there's not much else to do. I mean, I had no neighbors. We lived on six and a half acres across the street was a tree farm. And next door to me, my neighbor had, it was part of a forest preserve, had two horses and rescued animals. They had no children. Like we didn't have like, I wasn't running down the street and.

and playing with all the neighborhood kids, it was me and my brothers. So we played basketball until I got fouled hard enough on the court and quit. We played running bases. I think I learned how to run fast because they chased me. It was something that we did for fun and then that translated into competitive sports as I grew my talent and played travel soccer, played lettered in four different varsity sports.

in high school. And then when I went to college at U of I, I had intended to not play anything, but I went to walk on tryouts for the soccer team and had the opportunity to play with them for a little while and decided that, you know, I would stick with my original intention and try to study and expand my social network so that my career would be one that I was proud of.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, you mentioned that you're close enough to the city to have sort of this vision for it. I'm curious, is it the kind of town where literally people live their whole lives and never go out and leave it?

Emily Jaenson

Yeah, for sure. There's a lot of people I went to high school with that still live in that town, which is amazing. And I see some of my brother's classmates got married early and their children are now about to attend our high school, which is so wild to see these stories unfold. If I log into Facebook, I'm seeing people wearing, their kids wearing our high school uniforms. So I was...

That's that's very cool for them and I love that for them and their happy families. But for me that wasn't that wasn't the path I wanted. I wanted to see what else was out there and going away to college, meeting people from different areas allowed me to get a job in the city after graduation so that I could experience what I felt was was a different, bigger, like more exciting life with with more.

things going on. Like I, I mean, I worked in sports and events for the majority of my career because I think I was bored a lot as a kid. I wanted to be in the action and that career path afforded me that opportunity.

Srini Rao

You said it's not far from Chicago, right?

Emily Jaenson

I would say about hour and a half.

Srini Rao

So this is the thing I wonder that that's actually not that far. And I wonder how, you know, you're in this sort of bubble. Why is it that you could have a vision for something greater versus the people who decide that this is kind of it? I'm happy to be in this bubble, not that either one is better or worse. I'm just curious. Like, what is it you think about your own experience beyond this need for action that shaped that perspective? Like, why is it that somebody would not see that possibility?

Emily Jaenson

Well, maybe for me, I think a lot of it is you have to have some type of curiosity or exposure or temptation. Like my dad worked in construction. He did concrete repair. He was the superintendent of a company doing concrete repair in the city for 40 years.

So my dad woke up at four in the morning every day and drove into the city and was home that night for dinner. And I think there was a little bit of mystery and intrigue to that as he spoke to us around the dinner table about his experiences from the day and what was happening downtown that I have this mystery and curiosity about what it would be like to get to go to the city every day.

It was also the reason we didn't travel that much because he did it five days a week and it was the last thing he wanted to do on the weekend was take his family. So I think that might've been a piece of it. I also think it's a little bit in your DNA, like what you want for yourself, what you envision for yourself if you're a person who is seeking more. And I definitely think I was.

born that way, but I had a lot of hurdles in order to get there, considering that I was super shy, pretty sheltered and didn't have exposure to city careers. Like there was a lot that I needed to learn in order to get to that place, but I did have an innate drive that pushed me to do the things that I needed to do in order to make that life a reality.

Srini Rao

Well, explain to me how somebody who, your TED Talk said that you were so shy to talk to a stranger that you couldn't even order a pizza when your mom handed you a phone book, goes to being a person who sells season tickets for the Bulls, which I want to talk about, and then goes on to being the first GM of a AAA baseball team. Like how in the world does that happen?

Emily Jaenson

Yeah, yeah. Great question. And it's really the answer is just it's one step at a time. And the old phrase get comfortable being uncomfortable. Oh my gosh, I learned that very early and I've lived in it for a long time. I still live in it today. Like I get in situations that make me sweat constantly, but that's the only way that you can grow. So I was in when I was in college or studied advertising.

I was dreaming of either working in sports, but I didn't even really know what that meant because I had no exposure to the industry. I didn't even understand what a front office was. In fact, when I went to college, I was studying physical therapy because the only vision I had besides coaching was the people who ran out onto the field when there was an injury. Like I didn't know there was a whole group of or.

hundreds of people behind the scenes, like making the event come to life. I had no clue. So I studied advertising. I got a job offer from an advertising agency in the city. But a girl that I knew in college was working for the Chicago Bulls. And I reached out to her and I was like, what are you doing? How did you get that job? What does that mean? Again, really employing that curiosity and being brave enough to ask the question.

And she told me that the way to get into sports was through ticket sales, which I wanted to get into sports bad enough that I applied for a job that would have literally been my nightmare. Making 80 phone calls a day to sell tickets sounded terrible. My confidence was definitely not high enough at that point to take on that job. And it made me nervous even talking about it. So I, because I had that relationship.

I got my resume in front of the hiring manager. I went to the city to interview. And I don't know if like, I don't think I faked it till I made it. I think I answered the questions in a way that demonstrated the person I wanted to become. So when he said,

Emily Jaenson

comfortable are you making 80 phone calls a day? My answer was probably not at all, but I knew that was the job duty. So I said I can absolutely learn how to do that. And that was again, putting myself in a position where discomfort would help me learn and grow in the sports industry. The way to climb the ladder in the front office is to understand how to drive revenue and value for the business and understanding ticket sales was a great way for me to get my career started.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah, your ticket sales are kind of the foundation of the entire business, aren't they?

Emily Jaenson

Oh, yeah, totally. It's the lifeblood of the organization. You can't sell, you can't sell, you know, six figure, seven figure sponsorships if you have no fans in the stands. So and you don't have a TV deal. So, yes, exactly.

Srini Rao

Yeah, exactly.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I always joke that like my my, you know, fuck you money dream would be to own an NBA basketball team. Like that's the more of my friends like. So that's what you would do with billions of dollars. I'm like, yeah, that's about the only thing I could think of that I need a billion dollars for. Because like I said, I'm completely just fascinated by the entire business of sports. You mentioned selling season tickets because the reason this struck me as interesting is when I was a freshman at Berkeley, the Golden State Warriors were the worst team in the NBA. Like they were like it's hard for people to imagine this.

You might be able to, because given your background, but they were so bad that the they're literally students selling tickets on campus. We're talking season tickets on a tear out sheet for $60 for the entire season. And every day I thought to myself, someday somebody is going to take this team, turn it around, become really rich. I hope it's me, but it wasn't. And that prediction turned out to be true. But what I'm really in my is like because.

Emily Jaenson

Wow.

Oh.

Srini Rao

When we think season tickets, I think the first image that comes to mind is, oh, these are people who are happy to talk to you, happy to hear from you, have a shit ton of money to spend. And talk to me about, you know, sort of the challenges of that. Like, what was difficult? Are there any memories that come to mind in particular that were really informative where you're like, oh my God, I can't believe that happened or this person was a total jerk.

Emily Jaenson

Oh my gosh, you have no idea. I mean, 80 phone calls a day for nine months, like you're not gonna talk to gems every time you pick up the phone. And the lead list runs very thin after.

you've been doing the job for several months. So you start with season ticket inquiries. So people who've said like, hey, I'm interested in learning more about this, like, give me a call. Those are great calls to have. You talk to them about the benefits, you talk to them about usage and all the great reasons why they should become a season ticket holder. The funny part for me, I really remember is like, I was totally broke, like no fricking money.

And I'm asking people for a sale of like $5 ,000 a seat. So if you're getting good seats, like I'm asking you for your credit card for a charge that's over $20 ,000, which for me, like I couldn't even imagine because I have no money. So that's one of the, one of the like foundational pieces I remember early on is like,

wrapping my head around like these are not my finances. These are the, this is money from this law firm. And if I understand the use case for these tickets, you know, here's why this makes sense. But I had trouble asking for the sale initially because it felt like too much money to me. So that was interesting. But then as we got farther along, the leads at the bottom of the barrel are, they're called merge leads. So,

You know, I'm sure it's more sophisticated today than it was 15 years ago, but you're at the bottom of the barrel or these people have literally bought apparel. For the Bulls and you have their information so they bought $20 shirt and you're asking them to buy season tickets so definitely got laughed at and hung up on multiple times from those phone calls and.

Srini Rao

Hahaha!

Emily Jaenson

You know, that's where you kind of develop the thick skin. And I also think, you know, having the community, there's a bunch of other people doing the same job around me. So being able to share with them, like, oh my gosh, you won't believe this person I just talked to, or I hear someone in the cube down the way, just shout out the word next, because that's what we yelled when we just had the worst call ever. Like you would just say next and move on to your next activity, because you couldn't, you couldn't.

fester on the crappy call. Like you had to get back on the horse and try again.

Srini Rao

Yeah, well, you know, one of the things you mentioned was that behind the scenes of what we see on TV, for example, or what the fans witnessed in the stands, there were like hundreds of people who make all this happen. I'm curious, what is the sort of operation of any sports team look like? What is like? Because I think all we see are like, hey, look, it's Michael Jordan making a dunk. Cool. Yeah. And like this fancy arena. But I know there's it's way more intricate than intricate than that.

Emily Jaenson

Totally. So depending on the team or the size of the team or the league that they're in, you know, in AAA baseball, you might have between 30 to 50 front office personnel. At an NBA team like the Bulls, you might have 200. And the different departments include marketing, they include ticket sales, they include...

game and event operations. It could include community, sponsorship sales, ticket sales, and all of those departments have people like doing the job. Then they have a department head or a director or a VP, and then they're reporting up to a leadership team. And then ultimately the president who reports to the owner. And if you think about it, I could speak for minor league baseball. It is in my...

In my opinion, a miracle that we can put on 70 home games a year like day after day after day, you're putting on an event for thousands of people to come to your stadium and have this experience. So you have then you have your game day staff. So the people that you hire on an hourly wage to do security, you've got ushers, you have.

third party or in -house concessionaires. So you have all the people that are working the concessions. You have the concession stand manager. Then you have game day entertainment. So you have your host, you have your control room where people are controlling all the messages that go on the video board. They have the run of show for any games or contests or performances that are gonna happen in between innings or let's say halftime.

So it is like a putting on a circus every single night. And that's just game day. Like year round, you're selling tickets, you're selling sponsorships, you're ordering what needs to be ordered for the teen store, you're updating your website. I mean, it is, you're communicating to your fans constantly through your newsletters, you're updating your social channels. It is constant. And I will also say for baseball,

Emily Jaenson

specifically in AAA, like with our affiliation, we had over 200 transactions per season. So that's players moving up and down between us and our major league affiliate. So the news is constant between press releases and what you're putting on social. And then you have a game every night. So you want to put those highlights up. It is bananas and it's a miracle and it's super fun to see it all come together. And it's all for

the fulfillment of the dream for these players and entertainment for your fans and supporters.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, I want to come back to AAA in general and your role there. But what I want to talk about is the fact that this is a largely male dominated industry, isn't it? Like sports in general. So talk to me about a couple of different things. One is overcoming gender biases in this industry, your experiences with that. What are they? How prevalent are they? And what challenges or obstacles did you as a woman who has risen in the ranks in this industry face?

Emily Jaenson

It is, yes.

Emily Jaenson

Yeah, so in the sports industry, it is only 30 % female at management level and above. So there's still a lot of work to be done at the top. And I really believe in that saying, you can't be what you can't see. And I don't mean to like give people a pass, but.

I always give people the benefit of the doubt. Like if you haven't seen a female leader in one of these roles, like you might make an assumption based on what you have seen in the past. So, you know, for me, I was often seen as or misunderstood to be a player's wife, often thought to be a cheerleader or someone who is running marketing or like...

works in the team store, you know, very like no offense to anybody who's in those roles. I oversaw all those roles and know how critical they are to the organization. But those are what you would think traditionally like a female would occupy. And that's what people generally thought I did. So what I did to combat those gender biases was actually my boss gave me this.

piece of advice because I, he saw over and over, he didn't understand like, he was, he was great that he hired me for what I could do for the team. And I don't think he understood like some of the challenges that I would face, like being a woman in the role. He was just like, oh, you can do the job, you know, that ends here. But after he saw me being misunderstood over and over again, he was like, you should use your business card more often.

And I thought, all right, well, what can I do with that information? So what I would do is carry business cards around with me. And when I was meeting somebody new, before they had a chance to assume who I was, I would grab a business card, throw it out in front of them, and tell them, hey, I'm Emily. I'm the GM of this team.

Emily Jaenson

And I was often met with like wide -eyed surprise, you know, and then sometimes we'd go into conversations that were like ridiculous, that you'd probably never ask a guy like, oh, do you have children? Are you married? Who's at home with the kids? It's like, no one would ask a dude that question, but it happened to me all the time. And again, I would say that like, I would just use that as an opportunity to.

maybe make a different impression and show them that a woman could be in this role and they shouldn't be so surprised in the future.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, what I wonder is, you know, how this impacts your relationships within the organization, whether it's with players, with coaches and sort of your interactions with them and how it contrasts to a male and like, what is the GM's involvement with players? Like, I assume it's pretty deep.

Emily Jaenson

Thank you.

Emily Jaenson

Yeah, so the parent club, the MLB club is handling players from top to bottom. So from MLB club to single A baseball, they are determining which player is playing on what team and in what position and for how long and where they are moving. They are the puppeteers of the entire organization. They're paying the payroll. Those are their assets. They're moving them around.

However, as a GM at the AAA level, my role was to make sure that it all happened smoothly and that the players were well taken care of and that they had everything that they needed from our facility and from our club. So what I mean by that is you play games back to back to back. So they could be in Reno and the next day they have a game in El Paso. So.

They finished the game in Reno at 11. They have a game the next morning in El Paso. They are getting packed up by the clubby at midnight and taking the first flight out in the morning to get to Texas. All their stuff has to be packed. They need to have everything that is required to get to the flight to get to their next game. So I've got people on my team that are arranging transportation that are buying the flights that are checking them in early that are getting their tickets ready so that it's the smoothest.

possible transportation. Also having to do with uniforms like what they have. I'm talking to our manager on a daily basis. What do you guys need? How's it going? Can we use the players for X, Y, or Z? We have a visit at the Ronald McDonald House. Who's available to go and at what time? It is a constant conversation and I would say that's what.

my superpower was in that role is that I know how to take care of people and I knew how to do it in a way that was never going to be a detriment to our bottom line. It was going to be resourceful use of our budget, but also take care of all the needs of the team. And that happens through dialogue. And if you don't have that continuous dialogue with your team, with their manager,

Emily Jaenson

with your parent club, like your toast. So we had a very strong relationship, still do with the Arizona Diamondbacks. And I think a lot of that is due to the fact that, you know, we take care of those guys and that is a major priority.

Srini Rao

So my sort of only experience with what you're describing is the Dennis Quaid movie, The Rookie. I'm guessing you've probably seen that given what you do for work. So one of the things I wonder about, I mean, from what I gather, it sounds like AAA is kind of the feeder to the major leagues. And for some of these young guys, like I'm assuming like this has been the defining thing in their life is getting to the major league. So it sounds to me like part of your job is to play therapist to a degree. What happens when

Emily Jaenson

Yeah.

Emily Jaenson

Thank you.

Srini Rao

somebody basically spent their entire life like in your experience from the perspective of somebody who is a GM because I've asked players about this like You've had somebody who does this for their entire life and is headed down that track This has been a defining part of their identity for so long and when that dream disappears like I'm guessing not everybody makes it to the majors So what happens in those moments like how do they navigate this like is that does it triple a even become an endpoint for some people?

Emily Jaenson

No.

Emily Jaenson

Yeah, it often becomes an end point for some people. It becomes like a resting place for their career. You're either in AAA because you're winding down or you're in AAA because you're winding up and they're preparing you for the big league club. Like it's the last stop in most cases before you get your call up to the major league. So I've seen it on both ends. I've seen players literally have their dream come true in Reno. Like they...

get their first call up, sometimes in the middle of the game in the seventh inning and they're getting on a flight to get to Arizona is it is wild. And what I always wanted in those moments for our fans, because that's the unique thing about minor league baseball and AAA specifically, it's like you don't have a set roster. Your fan could be in love with a guy and he's gone tomorrow because he's with the D backs. So.

I wanted to create a culture and a fandom where you celebrated those moments. Reno is a place where your dreams can come true and where you can. It can be the final stop in your minor league baseball career before you get your call up. And that's something we should celebrate, not think, oh man, that stinks for us because that guy was so good. Like he's here because he's waiting to get called up to Major League Baseball. And what you get to do as a fan is see that happen.

So that's a very exciting moment. And I think that came to fruition so many times, as I mentioned before, there were 200 transactions a season. On the flip side, if your career is winding down, I wanted Reno to be a place where you felt like cherished and supported. So some of the guys who were AAA guys for life, that was gonna be their...

their role is essentially it's like the practice squad for the guys that are gonna get their call up. I wanted those guys to feel beloved by the fans and we did our best to make that happen. So it was again, a bright spot in their career rather than just the end point.

Srini Rao

Yeah. So, so it does, from what I'm gathering, this doesn't sound like it works like the NFL where you have a draft from colleges is the AAA, like do people get drafted directly from college to the MLB or is kind of, is this kind of like one of the steps on the path?

Emily Jaenson

So it's all one. So minor league baseball is major league baseball. Like they're tied uniquely together. Think of it like the runs of the ladder, like single A, low A, high A, double A, triple A, major league baseball. And all of those levels are part of one team. So the Dbacks have 200 guys on their roster from MLB club all the way down to single A to low A.

And what you're doing as a player is you're climbing that ladder. So scouts and recruiters and their farm directors are finding talent to populate that 200 or so player roster and find who fits the best where ultimately to make the best team for the major league club. And all those guys are on the major league clubs payroll. It is all one unit and it starts with, yeah, a draft.

Srini Rao

Well, one of the things that you said in your TED Talk is that research tells us that in order to get people to change, you need to start with the attitudes, not with the attitudes, but the behaviors associated with those attitudes. When people can see themselves behaving differently, they then begin to act differently. I want to ask you about this in the context of both your own experience in your career and your life, but also how that concept impacts the difference between the people who do end up making it and the ones who don't.

Emily Jaenson

Thank you.

Emily Jaenson

Yeah, I mean, behavior changes attitudes. So you will have heard it in the story I've been telling this whole recording. Like, I didn't start out as this person, but I made a decision to behave in a certain way that would allow me to develop a different...

in my opinion, more elevated attitude. I wanted to become a person with more confidence, so I behaved like a person with more confidence. If you want to become a big league player, you got to behave like a big league player and emulate those actions. Be observant, be curious. Don't be so into your own ego that you cannot see what you should be.

doing, how you could be giving 1 % more or 10 % more or setting your goals 10x versus 2x. What do you need to do in order to get to where you need to go? And basically every single time, you cannot do the same thing you've always done and expect different results.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, I'm completely obsessed with, I think this is why I'm fascinated by athletes in general, particularly pro athletes because of sort of the sheer level of human performance that is involved. And yeah, I have a one year old nephew, like one year and three months, and my sister got him a little basketball hoop for Christmas. So she's finally throwing, teaching him how to throw baskets and he was making them. And she kept inching the hoop like further and further back. And...

Apparently he goes ape shit when he misses like he gets really mad. I was like, dude, you're acting like we're on our test. You can't do this. But it was just a really interesting moment. Like, OK, this is actually an interesting moment of like, buddy, you got to be OK with the fact that you're not going to make every shot. But and he, of course, being the genius that he is after like few minutes, he basically looked at my sister and just pulled the hoop closer to him and put the ball in. But yeah, I mean, I think that that's what I'm so intrigued by, because.

Emily Jaenson

Okay.

Uh huh.

Emily Jaenson

Okay.

Srini Rao

Like this is one of those situations where your odds are pretty stacked against you from the start, aren't they?

Emily Jaenson

Oh, yeah. I mean, think of all the little league players there are in this country and only a teeny tiny percentage of those kids are going to make it. But every single one of those kids parents thinks that they're going to be the next great thing. So, yeah, I mean, baseball is baseball is like a tough one because.

I do think that a lot of it depends on a little bit of genetics. There are some anomalies in there. We definitely have to work hard, but there's definitely some anatomy that is gonna help you get to the next level, whether there's something special with your arm, whether it's your height, whether it's your speed, whether it's your hitting prowess, I mean, your power.

There's things that make professional athletes very special. But I think that there's also an opportunity for any of us to, you know, maybe we're not going to be a major league baseball player, but we can achieve a little bit more. And when we do that, and the reason I push for that is that you can live a bigger, happier, more fulfilled life when you are.

pushing for more when you are succeeding, when you're not looking at a trip to Italy as something you could never do because you could never afford it, but you're setting income goals that are going to allow you to afford that trip in the future. When you feel like, man, it would be nice if I could easily climb the stairs without getting out of breath. And you think, oh, you know what I should do? I should challenge myself to run my first 5K.

and you sign up for a race and you complete a program and you complete the race and then you get to the top of those stairs and you realize, man, a couple of months ago, I couldn't even climb these without getting winded and now I have this medal on my desk. Like look at the human potential, look at what I can achieve if I set a goal and set my mind to it. And that makes us happier, it makes us more fulfilled. It shows us that humans are very uniquely positioned to

Emily Jaenson

create their own realities to create the life that they want. And I think that is very exciting. Whether you're going to become the next great player or you're just going to elevate your own life, we all have that potential inside of us to do so. If we decide to, if we start to do the behaviors that change our attitudes, if we then set the goals that put us on the path full of intention.

to do the things that we set out to do. I mean, it's all available to you if you want it.

Srini Rao

I think this whole idea that your behavior can actually change the attitude, it all makes a lot of sense. It's very in line with James Clear's concepts of atomic habits and habits basically creating identity. Because he used to talk about that he himself was a baseball player. But I remember when I read that book, when I would talk to aspiring writers, they would be like, I want to write a book. And I'm like, well, you know what, start by opening a notebook every day. I was like, because you have to build the identity of a writer. And I said, don't even try to write.

Emily Jaenson

Ich hab mich.

Srini Rao

And I said, eventually the inertia kicks in. You're like, I opened this stupid notebook every day. I might as well write something. And I was amazed like how quickly I was able, like I was like, okay, what does a professional writer write every day? And for me, that was a thousand words. And six months after I self published Wall Street Journal bestseller, two years after the habit led to a book deal. And I realized like, you know, the link between behavior and identity is so strong.

Emily Jaenson

Oh, absolutely. You can't have the dream. And if you do, if you have the dream, you don't take action. It's never going to happen. I'm my first book is coming out this spring.

Let's Go Guys to Increasing Your Confidence is the name. I'm sure you could have guessed that. It's very in line with everything we've been talking about today. And people are like, wow, that's amazing that you wrote a book. I've always wanted to do that. And I was like, well, have you written anything at all? And the answer is generally no. And my response is like, well, if that is truly a goal that you want to do, you have to actually start writing, right? Like.

If you want to run a marathon, you actually have to start running or even start walking. I mean, you have to do something. You have to do the behavior to get to the goal. And it's remarkable to me how humans can often dream big, but take no action.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I mean, I it's funny because I had a post on my blog title, why outcome based goals are a recipe for failure. Like there's an irony to that. Like I remember when I had the irony of my whole book deal was like, how did it happen? I was like, I gave up on getting a book deal. That's how it happened.

Emily Jaenson

Yeah, yeah, I just had a conversation about this the other day. Like I'm I preach and I teach goal setting and why you should do it, how you should do it, encompassing your your entire life, home and work. But I also talk a lot about how much is gained in in chasing a goal. Even when you don't make it right, like you learn something about yourself.

You learn something about that goal, whether it serves you or it doesn't, or if it puts you on a different path. So it is okay to have a goal and let it go on the journey if it's no longer serving you, as long as you reflect back and think, man, you know, what did I learn in this process and where do I want to go next? So it's not being a quitter. In this case, I think there's, you know, a lot of, of.

information on this topic, but it's kind of quitting to win in that case. Like if you're running up against a wall over and over and over again, you got to find a different way to get around it, right? Is there another door? Is there a window you got to climb over? You got to run around like going in a singular direction at an outcome based goal as you described. Like you have to leave yourself open to finding essentially unique ways to get there. In your case,

You could have chased getting a book deal for 10 years and you would never have had a book written. You found a different way to do it, got it out there, and then ultimately got to your goal, but you just were on a different path.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I think that also raises the question of like, maybe you should set a different goal to which a lot of people get stubborn about that is a whole other thing like any Duke written an excellent book on the role of quitting and how important it is like that, you know, that there are times when it absolutely makes sense to quit.

Emily Jaenson

Thank you.

Emily Jaenson

Yeah, I totally agree. And I'll tell you that when I do keynotes and we discuss goal setting and we talk about that and so many people are hesitant to set a goal in the first place because they're afraid they're not going to reach it. And they will often ask me questions at the end of that Q &A section like, man, you know, there's this thing that I really want to do, but I just don't, I don't know if I can do it. I don't know if I can get there. And we talk, we then sort of dissect that into thinking like, all right,

Let's talk about the fear of goal setting, like why you have that. Is this a sign that that goal is not serving you or is it a sign that you should attack it and then discover what is really the right goal for you to have in mind? So I don't think that when you write something down, when you you set a goal that it's chiseled in stone, like they have to be a little bit malleable and it's not to take an out, it's to remain true to.

who it is that you want to become. I think not who you are today, but who it is that you want to become.

Srini Rao

Well, you know, one other question I have about this. We have a lot of parents who are listening to this, and particularly for those who have daughters, I'm really curious, like what your advice is to, you know, younger children, like school age children when it comes to, you know, women navigating male dominated fields.

Emily Jaenson

Yeah, uh, Serena, this is such a multi -dimensional question. There's so many ways to go. It's very, very hard to raise children in today's world for a lot of reasons. But what I will talk about is one very simple takeaway that parents can give to their daughters. And it's just the phrase, why not you? And I can't tell you.

how many times I use this phrase over and over and over again. I mean, self -doubt creeps in always. Confidence can waver. I talk on, I speak on confidence, I write on confidence, I give keynotes on confidence, but my confidence isn't always a 10 out of 10. It can waver. And that's whenever we go outside of our comfort zone. And so my little hack in those instances is thinking, why not me?

Right? We're all just people. You know, you were just a guy who kept going after his dream and then ended up writing a bestseller because you put in the work. And if you had sat there and compared yourself to every other person who was a bestseller and think, oh, they can do that and not me, you know, my question is like, is why not you? Why not you? And that has gotten me through so many different situations. Like being a woman in a male dominated field, I thought, why not me?

I can set the path forward. Then somebody has someone to look at and think, oh, she did it. Why not me? And it just continues to cascade to the next person. So having that in your back pocket, let's say you're a high school girl and you're in the finals in your soccer game and it goes to a shootout and you're up to take the PK, like, why not you? Why can't you be the one who makes it? Rather than dwelling on the, oh my gosh, what if I miss? What if I miss?

shifted over to Why Not You?

Srini Rao

I'm glad you brought up high school because I wanted to finish with talking about education in particular in this context of women in male -dominated fields in our educational system. What do you think we're missing and what do you think we should be teaching, both not just to female students but to male students as well?

Emily Jaenson

Yeah, I think more exposure to careers is so necessary. I mean, the fact that you leave high school and you have to pick a major at 18 that you're going to study and then potentially apply for the rest of your life is ludicrous. And kids do not have the exposure to what different careers look like. I always dreamed,

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Emily Jaenson

when I was in my 20s, I was like, man, I wish I could get a reality show that was called like, Emily does this job for a week or two weeks or whatever. And I go in and you name a career and you plot me into their office or their field or whatever. And I am just like asking questions. I'm walking around, I'm showing them that I'm trying to do these things and I'm just giving people exposure to these.

what different careers look like. I mean, even when you're filling out your college application, you're like, I don't even know if I studied economics. Like, what kind of job do I have? I have no clue. This is a topic, not a career. So, you know, that is very, very challenging. And so what I would tell kids, what I would tell parents is like, get curious, have those conversations early, talk about.

Srini Rao

Mm -hmm.

Emily Jaenson

You know, don't leave, what do I want to be when I grow up a fireman? And just leave that as the answer from a first grader and like never talk about it again. And then, you know, your kid winds up working in real estate, right? Like we have to continue these conversations, get exposure, internships, mentorship, even just do your own research. Like look it up online and see what people are doing. Follow their careers and try to understand.

what you like and what that might mean for you in the future.

Srini Rao

Yeah, it's funny because I've always thought that, you know, the what do you want to be when you grow up question is absolutely ludicrous. I was like, how are you asking a five year old how they want to spend the rest of their life when they've lived a fraction of it? I don't know if you've read Range by David Epstein. I'm heading here as a guest, but one of the things he said was that we underestimate future change at every point in our life. And he said that when you're asking.

Emily Jaenson

Yeah, I know.

Emily Jaenson

Thank you.

Srini Rao

young students to choose a major at age 18, you're basically asking them to choose for a person they don't know and a person that they can't predict what that person will be like. Which it is mind boggling to me because I do think that like I thought about that. I was like, wow, I do nothing related to what I studied in college. And it was one of those things like I look back now and it's like this is one of the fatal flaws in how we educate. Like we are basically trying to pigeonhole people.

Emily Jaenson

Yes.

Emily Jaenson

And, you I would, I'd probably, depending on the person, give the advice to study something that you enjoy so that you can succeed in school. Like, so that you want to go to class, so that you want to read the material, something that's interesting to you, that piques your curiosity. It is such, now looking back, you know, at

Srini Rao

from the moment they set foot in college.

Emily Jaenson

at 40 years old, I'm like, man, I got to attend all these classes on all these interesting topics. And looking back today, like I'm way more interested in reading and studying than I was at that age. So if you can get into school, if you want to get your degree, like pursue something that's curious, because I will tell you that my career path is nonlinear. I found a way to tie all the strings together and make it work out as beautifully as I could.

But just because you do one thing doesn't mean that that's what you do forever. And when I left the Chicago Bulls back at the beginning of my career, I moved on from them and went to work at a large nonprofit agency in the city. And I did event planning. I sold sponsorships. I, you know, in the same town, like I was in sales and I made a lot of money for a nonprofit organization.

But when I left Bulls, my boss said, if you leave sports, you're never going to get back in. And I was like, I just don't believe that's true. And it was not true for me. I went back to work in sports later. But for me, that experience I got that was outside of the industry was invaluable to the progression of my career. So I would also say to those kids and those people earlier in their career, like, don't be so afraid to make a move.

Like you can always get another job. You can network your way into it. You can apply for it. You can move. You can do whatever it is you need to do to find something that suits the future version of yourself. So don't feel pigeonholed that just because for me, just because I studied advertising didn't mean I took a job at an ad agency. I worked in sports.

Srini Rao

Well, this has been absolutely fascinating. So I have one final question for you, which is how we finish all of our interviews at the Unmistakable Creative. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Emily Jaenson

What do I think that makes someone unmistakable? So I have a little quote, be so good, they won't forget you. A little bit adapted from what Steve Martin said, but what be so good, they won't forget you means is that you show up in a way that is bold, that is you, that is something that feels great, something that leaves an impression. Don't be...

Forgettable. Be someone. Be so good they won't forget you. Show up full on 110 % every chance you get because this world is full of opportunities for those who are willing to give extra effort.

Srini Rao

Beautiful. Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story, your wisdom, and your insights with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you, your work, and everything else you're up to?

Emily Jaenson

Sure, I love that. Thanks for asking. So my website is my first and last name, Emily, J -A -E -N -S -O -N .com, EmilyJanson .com. You can find me and most active on Instagram and I'm also on LinkedIn under my name, Emily Janson. My podcast is called Leadership is Female for all the women and 30 % of male listeners out there who are listening.

It is an interview show for female executives and women who have really made a name for themselves. And there is just so much to learn no matter how you identify. And my book comes out this spring, Let's Go, A Guide To Increasing Your Confidence. You can find more about that on my website.

Srini Rao

Amazing. And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.