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Nov. 21, 2022

George Ko | Why it Takes 1000 Small Breaks to Get One Big One

George Ko | Why it Takes 1000 Small Breaks to Get One Big One

George Ko, known for his dazzling sound and eloquence at the piano, is a pianist and composer who has played on stages around the world. George highlights the importance of dedication, grit and consistency when pursuing a creative path.

George Ko, known for his dazzling sound and eloquence at the piano, is a pianist and composer who has played on stages around the world. George highlights the importance of dedication, grit and consistency when pursuing a creative path. Here's why being able to get 1000 small breaks instead of one big one will be what defines your ability to hit it big in the future.

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Transcript

Srini Rao : , George, Welcome to the Unmistakable Creative. Thanks once for taking the time to join us.

George Ko: Thank you so much for having me.

Srini Rao : It is my pleasure to have you here. So I found out about you by way of your publicist, and I, as I was saying before we hit record here, I've, for some reason been talking to a lot of musicians lately, or people who have played instruments for a long time.

As a former failed slash partially successful to a player myself, I am always intrigued by the lives of musicians. But before we get into everything related to music, I wanted to start by asking you, what did your parents do for. And how did that end up shaping the choices that you've ended up making

George Ko: Yeah. Yeah, let's just go right into the Asian Parenthood, right?

Srini Rao : Exactly. Well, I had to. That's why. Well,

that's why I started with that with you, because I'm like, Okay, finally somebody I can talk to about this exact thing.

George Ko: Yeah. The the unique immigrant kid experience. Yeah. My, my dad is an entrepreneur. he. Owns a office supply company. so he, he's been doing that, oh God, I think he's been doing that for like 40, I think almost 41 years. And then my mom is a homemaker but her childhood dream was to be a concert pianist.

So I think, think you can see the thread where this is going , but so, so yeah, that's what my parents.

Srini Rao : Okay, so, you know, mom whose childhood dream was to become a concert pianist. Dad who's an entrepreneur, but go and pursue music as a career is absolutely not a typical narrative about how to make your way in the world for an Asian kid or an Indian kid. What, What, was that around your household and do you have siblings and if so, was it different for.

George Ko: Yeah. You know what's really interesting is actually personally did not set out to be a musician at all. I actually. For a long time thought I was gonna be an entrepreneur. And I was act, I was like many, like many immigrant kids, I was forced to play the piano and I absolutely hated it. Okay. Like I only practiced one hour a week till I was about 21.

I, I hated it. I ran away from piano lessons when I was a kid. I would like hide under the table or the couch. I yeah, I like, I like my mom took me to concerts every week, but I, I like fell asleep at all of 'em. I absolutely hated it. So when I told my parents I wanted to become a musician, there was just shock.

I, I dropped out of, College to to study music seriously. Cause I wasn't good enough. And I just, I like my, my father didn't talk to me for a year and a

Srini Rao : Whoa.

George Ko: like it was, it was like serious Asian drama type of stuff. And so I yeah, my mom, my mom was the more supportive one, but of. When, when, when your Asian parents don't hear doctor, lawyer, engineer, it's kind of a shock.

Srini Rao : Yeah.

George Ko: like it took a while. luckily for them, both of my siblings, I have a, a younger brother, 17 months younger, and a younger sister. We're seven years apart. They both have like, they're both very successful and my brother's a venture capitalist at one of the largest conglomerates in Japan and my sister.

Is a, I mean, her first job is an art director at Cha day, so she, they, they're both like, they're killing it and like parents are, you know, they're like, Okay, we don't have to worry about those

Srini Rao : I got the bullet points of

the resume.

George Ko: But the, the 30 year old one, you know, or we're worried about that guy.

Srini Rao : I can relate.

George Ko: okay. There you go.

Srini Rao : Yeah. My sister's a doctor. Like I, I had a friend in high school whose mom, another Indian guy whose mom used to tell him, If you don't go to your become a doctor, I won't go to my graven piece. And my mom

was like, Yeah, that's true

as well.

And I'm like, Well, fortunately my sister satisfied our quota.

George Ko: Yeah. You know what's funny is even though in my house for a while, I think what's what's really interesting is my, my parents are now fans of my music, which is, it took, I mean, it took three decades, but it, it, like that really changed things. But before then, like you know, like both my brother and I went to Harvard and I thought, like, again, with the quota thing, I.

Me getting in was an anomaly. My brother got in. Cool. Put all the family stuff on my brother so then I can run away and be a creative.

Srini Rao : Mm-hmm.

George Ko: that way. And, and what I try to explain to a lot of my Asian friends, you know, like mostly my immigrant kid friends, cuz I think this kind of runs across with a lot of like recent immigrant families.

It doesn't, sometimes it doesn't matter what you've accomplished, it's all relative to, to where they're starting from. So if my, cuz cuz you know, Harvard's the dream for most

Srini Rao : Yeah, I mean, that's what I was saying, like,

George Ko: two,

Then you could get a master's degree, Maybe you could get a PhD at Cambridge.

You know, like it just goes up, you know,

Srini Rao : I feel like, if I went to Harvard and told my parents I was gonna study music, like half my family would be like, What a waste of a Harvard education,

you know?

George Ko: I mean, that was, that was what happened when I switched my major to music. I, I was switched my major for the seventh time and I switched it to music and. M my, my mom was trying to understand it, you know, I could tell, but my dad was just like, What are you doing? Like, I have sacrificed everything. So you had a shot of getting into Harvard, You got in and then, and it's funny is actually when we were, we were talking earlier before we were recording about like you pursuing the Thornton School of Music at usc.

I actually want to go to usc. I didn't want to go to Harvard at all. Like

Srini Rao : And.

George Ko: zero. to go to Harvard because I knew what was going to happen, which it did, which was I will be completely overwhelmed by the competitiveness. I'm usually, I'm a very positive person. Harvard is an incredibly negative environment, and I was, I knew I was not going to, you know, gel well with that community and.

And so, so I really wanted to go to usc, but I, I honestly went to Harvard because I was the first person in my entire extended family to get into the Ivy League. and the first to get into Harvard. So I, I knew from like, you know, I think this goes into being a minority in this country too. I knew that to.

Make sure that whoever comes after me, if I have kids that they have kind of a leg up in society. I did kind of need to go, like I felt that immigrant burden.

Srini Rao : Mm-hmm.

George Ko: and, and so that's the, that's honestly the main reason why I went to Harvard.

Srini Rao : Yeah.

George Ko: my brother got in and I was just like, Yeah, why is all this pressure still on me?

You know,

Srini Rao : Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Well, okay, so you know, I, I didn't get to Harvard, but I went to Berkeley, which is kind of the public school version of Harvard,

probably.

George Ko: it's what? It's a great school. .

Srini Rao : yeah,

Well, and I kind of related relate to what you're talking about. Like I found it to be this really stressful environment, like I don't regret it now because I always tell people it's like, you know what?

You learn how to do at Berkeley to manipulate bureaucracies and bullshit to your advantage in ways that most people can't.

And yeah, big universities are full of bureaucracy, so you learn how to basically get away with things that most people wouldn't even think to do. Like I had a friend who didn't get into the business school and instead of trying to reapply, he just took all the classes and walked into the dean's office two weeks before graduation and was like, My parents are coming on Saturday.

Are you gonna let me walk it or not? And it was that kind of shit that Berkeley taught you to do,

like.

George Ko: yeah, that's, yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. Totally.

Srini Rao : Well, so speaking of Harvard and, and then I, I do want to come back to, to piano. One of the things that really has struck me is in the wake of sort of the college admissions scandal and how competitive it's getting is.

The sort of value that we have placed on elite education. There's this book that William Dershowitz wrote called The Miseducation of the American Elite Excellent Sheep.

And we've been a guest here multiple times and was talking about how people who come from these schools almost have this sense of entitlement that the world owes them something. Cause I, I remember I wrote this piece titled Advice to Freshmen. What I would tell myself if I were starting now, and I think the third piece of advice that I put in there is you're not. You're privileged just because you get into one of these schools, the world doesn't owe you something. But there's a clip that I wanted to bring back from Scott Galloway that I think would make for a really interesting discussion with you, particularly cuz you went to Harvard. Take a listen.

mediaboard_sounds: Despite the fact that the

Number of people going to college,

has increased dramatically,

Srini Rao : I.

mediaboard_sounds: The number of seats that have been offered by the top universities has stayed flat. So Stanford's applications have

tripled in the.

last 30 years, but the number of seats that they've increased has has, they haven't increased their freshman class by

Anything

substantial because we, as academics, and I

include myself

in this, have become

drunk with the notion of

exclusivity. And that is

we no longer see ourselves, as public,

servant. We are see ourselves as luxury brands, and every fall, the head of admissions and the deans brag about how impossible it's to get in to the college. And you can't be at a party

without someone joking

that they could never get into

their home mater today. But that's a bad thing because on a risk adjusted basis, it's likely that your children will be somewhere in your weight class.

Srini Rao : So, I mean, you went to Harvard. I went to Berkeley. I figured Who better to talk to you about that than you? Because I've talked to about to people who are professors from that perspective, but to talk to another student, like what do you make of that?

George Ko: It, it's, it's a very complicate for me, it's a very complicated answer. So I actually used to do college counseling pro bono too. So I think I have like a very unique

Srini Rao : totally.

George Ko: actually, I only took on clients that needed guidance, cuz that's a whole other thing. I think the college counseling game is like eight 99%, you know.

not necessary and, and incredibly expensive. And, and again, it preys on the, the luxury brand thing, like hopes and dreams of getting to elite school. So I think from the economics point of view, it's impossible to increase the number of seats. It's just not from, from a pure business standpoint, it's impossible.

Because for example, at Harvard, Harvard's incoming class is usually about 14 to 1800. And even though tuition, I think right now is almost 82,000 a year that costs Harvard 190 to 250,000 per student a year. So they're not making money on tuition. top of that, Harvard has the most generous financial aid program in the world.

So if you can't afford Harvard, Harvard literally just pays for everything, including your living stipend. I so like, from that perspective, like I understand why they can't increase the seats

The perspective of entitlement, that is a hundred percent true. but it's, it's complicated. Over 64% of Harvard students are on financial aid.

So these are not Most of the people who go there are not privileged, but what happens is it's so hard to get in cuz it's so competitive. moment you get in, you feel like a lot of students feel like I made it. So that's it. Right? I'm. But the, the reality is everyone who goes into Harvard, almost everyone's already burnt out, and that's why that entitlement kicks in because you're

,

surrounded by, only are you surrounded by the brand of Harvard and the pomp and circumstance, but you're surrounded by the most talented people in the planet.

In one city, you have the most famous and most successful people coming to teach your classes every week, like in music. The experiences were insane. Like Yoyo Ma was my chamber music coach. had jazz lessons with Joshua Redman, Andy Marsalis, I had a beer with Tommy Lee Jones. like Maya Angelou taught one of my English classes.

Like it's, you're, you're, and, and, and these are not just like famous people. They're the best at what they do. And so you're, you're bombarded by that. Every day. And so that entitlement kicks in because of the nurture. And, and also because you're already burnt out. So when you go in, you need something to lift you up.

And that was the brand of Harvard. So from the entitlement perspective, I don't think it's. the modern age, I don't think it's because a lot of the kids, most of the kids are from privilege.

Srini Rao : Yeah. Yeah.

George Ko: it's because it was so hard to get in. There was so burnt out and there was like not much like positive energy left.

The only thing left to adopt was that elitist system.

Srini Rao : Mm.

George Ko: that's all you see that when you graduate, you know, a lot of people truly believe like a lot of my classmates, like they really believe because I went to Harvard, I can get whatever job I. And so what happens is you start to see like from your twenties to like, now I just turned 30, that whoever adopted that belief of Aly, their career didn't really move forward, and it's because they didn't think they had to pay their dues anymore.

Srini Rao : Mm-hmm.

George Ko: the thing, the reason why Harvard is the way it is, is because. They still do attract those people who know how to pay their dues. And when, when you look at the Harvard undergraduate admission process there, there's actually like a very that the admissions officers follow, which is find someone who can take nothing and make it into something great.

And that is something that, that is like on the top, one of the top things they look for when they have students. And I think that's why Harvard still produce. I don't think they necessarily produce in themselves, but like they attract some of the most successful people in every field because they look for that innate quality, that talent of you can take nothing and make it great and, and so, so, so yeah, of course you're gonna have people who buy into the bes and buy into the brand and like where Harvard Prayer and Athelia all the time, but, The reason why it's still ranked so highly and the brand is so strong, is because they're looking for the, it's like, it's like it's like the Patriots, you know, they're looking for Tom Brady every day.

Srini Rao : Yeah.

George Ko: now in terms of the argument of like, is it necessary in our modern age to go to an elite school and that kind of thing? No. Like if you, if, if your goal is to have a good living and a well-balanced life, no, but the, there is value in an in, there's a value in these kind of institutions in. It invites discourse and it invites deep thinking.

And that is something we are sorely lacking in society today. So I just wish it didn't cost so much, you know? Cause I don't think it should cost that much. So it's just, that's so, it's like it's a complicated,

Srini Rao : Oh. There's no question. I mean, there's that and, and there's no question that it opens doors that are not open to other people. I

only know this because I went to Berkeley as an undergrad and I went to Pepperdine for business school, and I saw the companies that came to recruit at Berkeley were the Goldman s Sachs, and McKinsey's. Most people don't come to Pepperdine to recruit. And it's funny when you're saying they look for people who can take something and, and you know, like take nothing and make it into something. I'm like, I wonder if I applied to Harvard Business School now after 10 years of working on unmistakable creative, I would get a, I'd have a much better shot at getting in.

George Ko: Probably, Yeah, I mean I'm, I mean, I'm not on the

Srini Rao : Yeah. I mean I kind of that now I kind of wanna do it as an experiment, just as a fluke to see what happens. Well, let's go back to the piano. You know, when you said that you hated practicing, you hated piano, It, it reminded me of the Andre Agasy book Open. I don't know if you've ever read that, but he opens the book by saying, Let me let you in on a little secret.

I hate tennis. So what happened? I mean, do you, were this kid who resisted this, so how in the world did you go from this thing that you hate to making a living at it? And even on top of that, how in the hell did you get good enough at age 21? To actually start thinking about this as a career, because you and I both know this, I mean, we both grew up as musicians, like to perform at that level.

Like you start to lose the dexterity that you have as a child. Like there's certain things you can't do. Cause I've asked Daniel Coyle about this and I, this what he told me. He's like, Can you get good enough to impress the shit outta your friends and family? Yeah. He's like, Are you gonna open for guns and roses at a concert?

No. But clearly you, you're kind of an outlier in this. So talk to me about those two.

George Ko: Yeah. I mean, I, I think like I, there, there was a couple moments in my life where. Like music really inspired me and I think that kind of planted the. . I, I, I was forced to go to a concert for long, long, He's, he's, he's like probably the most famous concert pianist in the world. And and my mom got tickets and I was 13 at the time it was basically impossible to get a ticket.

It's still kind of is, but they're playing with the San Diego Symphony. We were three hours late because the traffic was horrible from Orange County and. I, he was playing the second movement of Ra Romano's second piano concerto. And my mom made up some lie to the usher that I was like, I was a huge fan and like, he's my hero and blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like, I don't know who this guy is. But then the usher let me in. He said, Oh, we can only have one person going in between movements. So, so they pushed me in and, and I had no idea where my seat was. I was like, Oh my God, I'm in a classical music concert. I am bored out of my mind. Why am I here?

And then, I heard him play well. I'm at a piano right now, so I'll just play. He played,

he played that melody and I was like, Oh my God. That's like the most beautiful thing I've ever heard in my life. And that was the first time I enjoyed a classical music concert. And, and it, I owe everything long, long. And so for me, that was the first time I said, This is a worthy. You know, this is an inspirational art.

It finally sunk in

Srini Rao : All.

George Ko: going to classical music conferences. I was three and hated every second of it. And then the second time was, and at Harvard, I I founded a startup. It was the first startup to be backed by Harvard. And we were like going upwards. It was like we were like the rock star from.

The incubator. Like I was, I was the first one of the first incubated startups at the Harvard Business School as an undergraduate. And so like, like we got all this press and stuff and it seemed really cool. And I'm like, you know, I was like, I'm gonna be lucky along Musk one day and then, and then when it came crashing down, like we lost all of our investor money.

Our prototype, like completely failed. And I was just, and this was, I was 19 when this happened. Like, I lost, I, I lost everything. And and my GPA was horrible because I was running a company, I wasn't going to class. And so, , I remember being really depressed. And I, I went to a concert and the Boston Phil Harmonic was playing at Harvard and they were playing Broms fourth symphony.

I don't know what happened, but I, I, I was watching this performance and I, something clicked in my brain and I said, You know what, that's what I want to. and because I, I realize like I love craft, you know, I love honing something and being really good at it because I don't know, for some reason, maybe because I grew up with an entrepreneur and I was surrounded by entrepreneurs like the.

I, I think we always fantasize about craft, like we fantasize about the sushi chef. We fantasize about that woodworker. We fantasize about, you know, that guy who makes customized sneakers in la you know, shout out to the, the shoe surgeon if you ever want to give me a free pair of shoes. You know, you heard it here first.

No. But, but you know, I think we fantasize about craft and so, I was like, I want to be a musician. I wanna be so good at something that I inspire someone on stage. literally after that concert, I called my parents and I said, I'm dropping outta Harvard. And I'm going to learn piano and conducting like for real.

they were both stunned. As I said. Like my dad didn't really talk to me for like a year and a year and a half. My mom was like, Are you sure? And I said, I haven't been more sure in my entire life. And I think that kind of conviction was also kind of shocking. And I think that's the moment I started to become an adult.

And so, I dropped outta Harvard. Oh. They, we made an agreement, like it was more of like a gap year. They said like, you have to go finish your degree. And I said, that I can live with, because having a Harvard degree in your back pocket is not a

Srini Rao : Yeah.

George Ko: So I was like, Yeah, logically we can agree on that.

As much as I don't wanna do it. I agree. So I, I dropped outta Harvard and I, I studied privately at Col, the Colburn School of Music, the conservatory here in. And I studied piano and conducting very intensely for one year. So this is the first time my entire life I dedicated something to one thing and I play, I practiced piano for 10 hours a day, and I, I had to redo everything because I only play one hour week.

You know, I could play complicated pieces. You know, basically just relying on my, I didn't, I know like minimal talent and, and my brain, but like I wasn't playing at a masterful level, and so I literally started with like scales at this tempo, you know, like.

Srini Rao : Yeah,

George Ko: Just imagine playing that slow and playing skills up and down the piano for 10 hours a day. And my teacher didn't let me play any repertoire for four months, I wasn't allowed to play any Mozart, Beethoven show. Nothing. I could only play scales and finger exercises until my scales were like, until I got to that level and.

Srini Rao : Know.

George Ko: And and yeah, so for one year and no one think I could do it. Even my, my piano teachers didn't even think I could do it. They thought it was a waste of money and time. They said it's impossible and I will never forget. Like I, I gave, I, I gave a recital at the end of my gap year and 450 people came to the show and.

I just remember after I played that recital, my dad still didn't say anything and he probably fell asleep a couple times, but my mom, my mom was like, Whoa. She was like, I have never heard you play at concert level. My like, cuz you know, I went from like, you know, it was like a real Hercules moment. A way of like, I'm going from, I went from zero to hero

Srini Rao : Yeah.

George Ko: than a year.

And, and so like I, I believe in the 10,000 hours thing, but I think it's like if you have a really

,

good 6,000. A really, really good 6,000. It can be comparable to 10,000. and actually if you look at the stats, a concert piano usually like that makes, it usually has about 22,000 hours of practice. Like that's the real statistics.

So, so I, I, I still wasn't good enough. So I remember going back to Harvard and the, Okay, here's the weird thing about Harvard is even though everyone there is like brilliant, and then there's a lot of, there's a huge concentration of geniuses for some reason. , every one of your classmates are the best at what they do in their craft and the world.

Like the number one Rubiks cube solver was in my class. This kid who was 17, designed the rocket fuselage for Falcon nine. Okay. That was his high school internship. So like you, you made the cr and like, look, this is all in my dorm too. I'm not, I didn't leave my dorm yet. Okay. And. My classmates in the music department were like the kids who got into Julliard and Curtis, the best music conservatives in the world and decided to go to Harvard.

And so the level was, I was the worst musician at Harvard, like in the music department. And it was, it was, it was incredibly condescending. It was so difficult. It's, it's crazy like when I graduated and like now I do music for a living and I compose. I didn't realize how insane the level was.

Like, I didn't know this, but if you did composition as an undergrad at Harvard, it's the equivalent to like a PhD program at Julliard. so like by the time you're done with the Harvard Music Program, even though we weren't a conservatory from a, from a conceptual standpoint, you're the level of a professor

Srini Rao : Hmm.

George Ko: and, so like, you know, it was really intense and not fun.

But then I came out of it and I was like, Wow, like I can be a musician. Like I have the building blocks. a career in music. But funny enough, that didn't happen cuz I went into tech and media for a few years, but, but now I'm back. So

Srini Rao : No. No.

George Ko: kind of a windy path,

Srini Rao : No, I mean, as, as are the paths of almost every single person I talk to, I've realized people who have interesting careers never have linear pasts. But a couple of things that really struck me, I mean,

you have this startup blow up in your face and you know, a lot of people that would be the undoing of them.

You know,

like I always say that you can let a negative event inform or define, or you clearly chose to let it inform you. But so. Why do you think some people let moments like that define them and others? Let those moments inform them and

catapult into the next step. Let's start there.

George Ko: Ooh, that's a great question. . Honestly, I think it's preparation I, I think it's preparation. You know, you like, especially with music right now, as an emerging artist, you have to be prepared constantly because you never know when your break's going to happen. And I think that's the same way with failure.

You're going to fail. going to fail. Like, nothing's a fairytale. I mean, it's very rare. You're like, Zuck where you get it first. Oh, I guess he failed with hot or not. But that was not a really, a company, not a very altruistic pursuit. But like, you know, like it's very rare. It's like that's one example, right?

It's super uncommon. And so if you are prepared to fail, I. Then you can, you can let those kind of life events help inform you of what's next.

Srini Rao : Mm.

George Ko: I think I had a, you know, I had a very atypical upbringing. My father was a successful entrepreneur who built, you know, his business literally from $0. My parents grew up and incredibly poor in Taiwan.

My dad showed me his home before it got demolished when I was like eight and the floor was dirt, you know? And so like my family came from very humble. Means And and my father also served in the Taiwanese special Forces. He fought in the Vietnam War. He was a liaison between the Green Beret and the Taiwanese Special Forces.

So I was brought up as a military kid too, and I had to fold my bed when I was for, I had to wake up, you know, at oh 600. I called my dad's SIR for until I was 12. like, I was disciplined. Oh, obviously not by. But I think that, you know, of course, like I've been doing therapy once a week every day or every, I've been doing therapy once a week for two years now

Srini Rao : mm-hmm.

George Ko: deprogram a lot of the toxicity.

Srini Rao : Yep. I get that.

George Ko: yeah, but the discipline, I think is what got me through it because I didn't think, I didn't have time to wallow. It was more of just like, what's next?

Srini Rao : Absolutely.

George Ko: I can't stop. And so, I think preparation and, and the only way you get prepared is

Srini Rao : Yeah.

George Ko: gonna have to practice failing and, and practice failing small things and trying to, I mean, I still take things a little personally, not like Michael Jordan,

Srini Rao : Mm-hmm.

George Ko: still take things a little personally,

Srini Rao : Yeah.

George Ko: I don't, I don't play quarters with the security guards and bankrupt them in one night.

But, you know, I, I, I I try to think of, you know, like, It's, it's, it's just like if you fail little things, like like I lose gigs constantly to famous people.

Srini Rao : Mm-hmm.

George Ko: would book a gig and then someone way more famous than me will get it and then they'll be like, Hey, George, by the way, we book someone else with your same name.

But he's way more famous, so we're gonna book him. And, and I used to get really upset about that. And you know what? Now I just be like, Okay, well if he gets sick or dies, give me a. Like, I'm just being totally, I'm just being logical. I'm just like, if you need

Srini Rao : Yeah.

George Ko: I'm available. I can, I can drive, I can drive.

You know, I don't need, I don't need a Uber, Uber, v

Srini Rao : Mm-hmm.

George Ko: very hump, you know, I'm very modest. I'll do anything. And so I think that's, that's the key preparation,

Srini Rao : Yeah, well it, it's funny you mentioned, you know, getting beat by somebody else in music cuz I, I missed Allstate band by one chair in Texas and to this day I still remember the kid's name who beat me. I had, you know, dinner with my ninth grade band director

after 30 years, and you, it was funny, we were talking to him about it and I was just like, Yeah, I always, that that event like, just pissed me off so much. I like, this kid's name was Scott Jackson and I was like, him and his stupid beret, you know, like but yeah, I think that, that, that's a really. Interesting response. So the thing that also strikes me, like I really appreciate the fact that you talked about that actual process at the beginning of playing scales at,

you know, at tempo.

Cause I very distinctly remember this from when I was in ninth grade band and, you know, I, I auditioned for the. All regional orchestra and of course it was a complete debacle cuz you know, they only took one person. My band director brought me back from that audition and he was like, We're gonna cut the tempo in half of what this is supposed to be played at.

And he was like, And that's how you're gonna audition. And I auditioned for the all region band. And then, you know, it's funny, the guy who ended up being first, it was a senior and I was a freshman, so I was second chair and I played it at like. Half the tempo that you're supposed to play it at, and I ended up being second chair and it

made me realize what he was doing.

I was like, Okay. He's making me work on accuracy and slowing this thing down dramatically. And I remember right when that was all done and he said, All right, you're, you've made it to area, which is the next level in Texas Lake.

So they have, in Texas, it's, you have all region, which is a bunch of school districts, and you have area which is a bunch of regions.

And then if you're in the top three at area depending on the instrument, you get to go to all. And he was like, Look, he's like, You made it to area as a freshman. That's a big deal. And I remember going and I was like, My only outcome that I will be really disappointed by is if I miss it by one chair, because, oh, if

you're dead last, you never had a chance anyways.

And of course I missed it by one chair, but that whole idea of slowing down, I mean that.

Is to get to those fundamentals of mastery. I mean, talk to me about what goes into that? I mean, discipline, obviously I think people ask me like, you know, being raised by Indian parents, I'm like, the biggest thing I got from that was discipline.

Like that is one thing that my parents taught me, even though I didn't agree with it, much like yourself, it was enforced. It was like, of course you get straight As, you don't question. The only question, I mean, I'm sure your parents don't civilian this too. They don't ask about the grades. They only ask why you didn't get an A if you. That's it. Other than that, no report cards on

fridges Or any of that?

George Ko: credit, like if there was extra credit, you're supposed to get that too for some reason.

Srini Rao : Yeah, yeah. Or if it's an A, you know, an A minus. They're like, Why didn't you get

an A plus?

George Ko: You sir, any the, like, the, the most quintessential version of that was, this was at the Harvard graduation ceremony. My brother and I graduated at the same time because my brother is a genius. He did Harvard in three years. he was also the youngest fellow in IDEO's history. He dropped outta Harvard to work at IDEO's, so he, Yeah, he's a, you know, he's a walking prodigy and so we're, we're getting our diplomas and my brother didn't even know he got Ku Laude Day.

Okay. It's like he didn't even know. And then I, I didn't get Kum Laude Day on my diploma,

Srini Rao : No. No.

George Ko: I did a thesis and I got honors and then my dad, During dinner, like our graduation dinner, my dad was like, Hey, in front of all of our relatives, because everyone flew in because we're the first to graduate from Harvard.

Srini Rao : Yeah.

George Ko: he said, in front of all the relatives, this was at Bar Baude in Boston. It was super glitzy. It was in the private dining room. It was like, cuz you know, my, my fam my family went all out cuz like, it's a huge celebration. I get it and blah, blah, blah. And then my dad goes, So George Ted got Kumau on his diploma.

Why didn't you? And he meant it. And this was, I'm a, I'm done. Right? I thought I fulfilled the family

Srini Rao : Yeah.

George Ko: What the hell? You know, . So, so yeah, I get you

Srini Rao : Yeah.

Well, okay, so, so talk to me about this idea of, of, you know, seeing and practicing skills performance. Cause this is something I see with a lot of aspiring creators. They want the, the audience, they want the spotlight. And I'm like, they want attention for their work. And I'm like, You know, instead of seeking attention for your work, go create, create something that's worthy of that attention, and that is the hard work that actually produces value that nobody wants to do because it's not glamorous at all.

I mean, who

the hell wants to sit around playing scales, you know?

George Ko: no. Yeah, I, I mean, like, it's, I think me, honestly, like, even, even with my, like, my exes don't understand, like I've, I've date, prodigies. Like, they're like the guy, the guy went to Julliard and Curtis like full ride. You know, I, And they, they don't, like, I was way worse than them and they, they didn't even understand my drive.

And I think you have to, you have to have a really, really strong vision. And what I mean by that is not like, . I mean, I, you know, I listen

,

to Gary Vaynerchuck and I listen to Eric Ree and Malcolm Gladwell. Like, these are great thinkers and great creatives and entrepreneurs in their own right, but you have to have an incredibly clear vision of what you want a creative.

So for example, I have in my head, I know exactly what I want, what kind of sound I want to create, or if I'm playing a piece, I know exactly. How I want to sound in my head, or if I'm like, now I just improvise like all my sets. Everything I do now is completely improvised before I start improvising. I already have a concrete concept in my head, even though it's spontaneous, but in my head, I'm writing this song like, one millisecond before real time.

And so you need to have that incredibly strong desire and vision before you even approach the instrument. And then when you practice, it's all about how do I get that? And, you have to have that mamba mentality of, and probably this is probably why I like Kobe was such a big part of my life growing up, is you have to have that mamba mentality of there is nothing else but that vision.

Srini Rao : Mm-hmm.

George Ko: don't hit it for yourself it, that means it didn't work. And, and so you have to just, that's, that's really what drove me was just like, I need to play at that level cuz that's, that's what I think is music. And if I don't get there, I didn't do, I didn't practice correctly,

Srini Rao : Yeah,

George Ko: it's kind of stupid in a way.

It's obviously not mentally healthy at all whatsoever, but

Srini Rao : but what musician is mentally healthy man? like

George Ko: no, that, that, I was talking about this with another I was talking about this with my producer, Dan the Automator, you know, and he's, he's like one of the greatest producers in hip hop. And I was like, like he's, I would say he's like fairly pretty happy.

I mean, he's had a couple platinum records, so he's, he's good, but like, I did, I did ask, we did talk about this. It's a good art. Like none of us are like normal or stable.

Srini Rao : we we're, Well, you know, the, the thinking you know, of the, the Super Pump show, the one about Uber on

Amazon Prime, like where Bill Gurley, like, he's played by Kyle Chandler, and they're talking about Travis Kanick being, you know, he is like this guy in a balanced place and he says nobody who brings an entire sector into being is in a balanced place. Yeah, I mean, I, I think that, you know, to, to create at that level, you have to have a, a few screws loose or to believe that you can create, which

actually takes me to two questions. One, this is just a morbid curiosity question since you

were talking about playing and thinking. So I remember the first time I heard it and I was like, That's fucking impossible.

There's no way I can ever learn how to do that. So there's a, a brass quintet called the Canadian Brass.

George Ko: Oh, yeah. I know who They're

Srini Rao : Yeah, so Charles Dollenbach was the, the tuba player.

Right. And I think, you know, people have gone in and out of it, but Dolan Bach's always been there.

And they have on one of their albums, him playing Flight of the Bumblebee

On. a tuba.

George Ko: Oh, It's so good.

Srini Rao : Can you actually play that?

George Ko: I can

Srini Rao : Yeah. I just, that's why I asked.

George Ko: Let's see.

All right. Flight of the bill will be improvised.

Srini Rao : I love it. Yeah, well, I, I remember the first time I heard on a tuba, but yeah, no, it, so I think that there, there are a few sort of final questions that come for this. Like you, you know, when you decide in that moment that, hey, this is what I want to do, and you have this moment of. You're also signing up for a life of profound uncertainty, one

in which there is absolutely nothing guaranteed no matter how hard you work. So for you, knowing all that, I mean, you were talking about mental health. How do you navigate this, you know, mind field of uncertainty without losing your fucking mind?

George Ko: Yeah. Well, I mean, you do lose your mind, , I mean, like, it does happen, like I, so I, I, I think there's like a couple components. Like one is that expectation thing.

Srini Rao : Mm.

George Ko: I am expecting to fail every. I'm expecting nothing to go. Right. and I think that's after, because I've built, I think I've built over ventures now in my life.

so I've, I'm very used to things blowing up in my face. I think it's also that. I thought I was gonna be married by now and like

Srini Rao : welcome to my world.

George Ko: Yeah. Well, I was, I was actually really looking forward to be a stay-at-home dad. Like, you know, that was where I, my mindset was that like three years ago.

So you know, like now all bets are off in my opinion. It's like have no, like, I don't know what's gonna happen. And I used to be that pre planter. You know, you hear all these like entrepreneurs give advice, like have a 1, 3, 5, 10 year plan. Okay. That's different when you're running a business, but

Srini Rao : mm-hmm.

George Ko: who knows what's gonna happen today?

Srini Rao : Even when

you're running a business, man, the world changes so fast that like five year plans are outdated.

Anybody who makes a five year plan is wasting their

time. Like, you know that question? They ask who? Like, where do you see yourself in five, five years from now?

And I remember my, my, one of my old roommates apparently told a guy interview.

He said, Five years from now I see myself on a yacht with people like you working for me, He

didn't get the job but

you, I. Audacity, man. You know,

I mean, and well, that's a thing you, you have to have like the stones to be that crazy and that bold when you pursue something that's, you know, wildly ambitious.

George Ko: Yeah. And you also have to be, , you have to be willing to give up everything. Like what I mean by that is, you know, I did okay in tech and I, I made, I made some people very, I didn't went out in the deals, but I made some people very wealthy. But I, I did okay, but I like, here's the realities of being an emerging artist.

Like on, on Instagram it may look like I'm doing super well and blah, blah, blah. But actually, is a struggle. Every day I sold, spend, I'm, I'm really into collecting vintage guitars and I've sold every single guitar I've ever collected except two. And the only reason why I haven't sold two, like yesterday, I just played guitar for a foster, the People album, which is like crazy, but like, that's like it's for work.

So I haven't sold those two. But I spent four years saving up to buy a 1965 Fender Stratocaster. And during Covid to make ends meet, I sold. and, and then Steinway. When I got signed as this young Steinway artist, they gave me this crazy offer to buy a nine foot concert Grand, the one at Boston Symphony Hall for ridiculous discounts.

So I bought, used my life savings to buy that piano and I sold that one too. And I, I knew I had to sell it just to keep the lights on to keep pursuing music cause I wasn't generating the income that I needed. keep my life going. And that's, that's what you just gotta be prepared to do or side hustle like, because I like my corporate, or I guess my tech background is brand design and brand strategy.

sometimes like I remember I played a, I was touring in Europe and I was playing in London, and then in between intermission I was doing a brand design. Yeah. You know, to ship it to the client and like, so I reversed the side hustle, right? The day job became the side hustle, and the side hustle became the day job.

But I think you just have to kind of accept that you're just gonna have to give up everything and all your creature comforts. And it still may not work out. Like I've had, like I used to think you needed that one big break to make it. Now I believe you need 1000 mini break. And that still may not be enough.

You still need the big kauna. And in my life as a musician, I haven't had the big kauna yet. Mind you, I've only been doing this for 16 months, so I have to be a little bit modest here. But you know, like I was gonna get this really big Netflix show didn't happen. I was gonna get this really big. To, to compose for it didn't happen.

I was gonna get this really big gig that involves a certain kind of ball being hiked up and thrown across a 50 yard line. That didn't happen. And so you just kind of have to be persistent and kind of, you kind of have to be kind of dumb about it. You know? You have to be kind of an idiot. And, and, and you know what's funny is, you know, you're doing.

like, I guess the barometer to not give up is when people are giving you free.

Srini Rao : Mm-hmm.

George Ko: if people are giving you bad advice constantly, like every day, that means you're doing something of value that they don't understand. And so like that's a good barometer to be like, I'm on the right track. Because if people are constantly calling me and telling me what to do, even though they haven't made it, that means they see me going up and, and it's like that.

It's like that weird Asian parenting kicks in because when an Asian parent criticizes you, I don't think they ne they're ne like, you know, a lot of people say, Oh, it's outta love. I actually don't think that's true. I think they're criticizing you because you're doing something and that elicits a reaction and, and Asian culture's terrible at communicating positive reinforcement, so they go the other way.

They just don't, we just don't know how to do it. Like it's just not in our dna. So that is like, like every day Sereni. Every day people have been giving me bad advice or like they would just tell me what to do, or they'd say, You should do this, you should do that. And I used to be like really angry about it.

Cause I'm like, You guys have no idea what I'm going through. Which is true, but now I look at it as like, oh, that means I'm on the right path.

Srini Rao : Mm-hmm.

George Ko: Because that means I'm eliciting a reaction. And as an artist, anytime you constantly elicit a reaction means your art is doing something. So, don't know. That was a long winded answer, but like

Srini Rao : That was a beautiful answer. Yeah, no, that was a beautiful answer. Well I enjoyed talking to you so much. So I, I want to finish with my final question, which is how we finish all of our interviews at the unmistakable creative. What do you think it is that makes somebody, or something unistaff.

George Ko: Hmm.

Love, love of something. Just, just love, just enamored love. Whether it's love of life, love of passion, the love of learning, the love of four people. think it's love. I think that's what makes you unmistakable.

Srini Rao : Beautiful. Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and to share your story, your wisdom, your insights, and your music with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you, your work, and everything that you're up to?

George Ko: Yeah. So if you'd like to hear all my improvised classical music I'm actually playing a life show in Koreatown in Los Angeles on November 17th at Inner Crew. It's this really cool, it's been described as the Soho House. of Koreatown. So if you like good food, great cocktails, and a classical improvising advisors serenading you with piano music for a few hours check out that show November 17th.

Details are my website, www.george co.co. That's g e o r g e k o.co. And if you wanna follow along my journey of this crazy madness that is music feel free to gimme a fall on Instagram. At underscore George Co. Again, that's at underscore G E O R G E K O. or just check out my music on Spotify and give me a follow there.

Srini Rao : Awesome. And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.