Ginger Bowman | Finding the Intersection Between Passion and Skill

Srini Rao

Ginger, welcome to the Unmistakable Creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Virginia Bowman

Well, thank you so much for having me today.

Srini Rao

It is my pleasure to have you here. I found out about your work by way of your publicist and as we were joking here before, I've grown quite averse to publicists and now I'm making them do much harder work to get on this show, but that's a complete aside. But I want to start by asking you, what is one of the most important things that you learned from one or both of your parents that have influenced and shaped who you've become and what you ended up doing with your life?

Virginia Bowman

You know, the thing that comes to my mind immediately, and I learned it from both of my parents, is the value of hard work for success. I really saw both of my parents work very hard in their careers. My dad was a doctor and my mother was a lawyer, and they worked really hard to get what they got. And that's how I knew I was gonna get successful, is if I worked for it.

Srini Rao

No. I mean, how does that play out when you're younger? Because there's sort of this balance of allowing a kid to have some semblance of freedom to explore and discover who they are at the same time, also encouraging them to work hard to do the things that they want to do.

Virginia Bowman

I think my parents did a pretty good, especially my mother, did a really good job in supporting that side of me because I am a creative and I went to a very college preparatory high school at the same time so I was a bit of an anomaly. I was the one creative in my family. You know, like I said, my mom was a lawyer, my dad was a doctor, my other sister turned into a lawyer, and my other sister turned into a math teacher. And then there was me, the creative.

And so my mother was always very supportive that I can make a living from my creativity. So I was encouraged to explore painting, sculpture, just the things that interested me. And at the same time, I was held to very high academic standards through the college and the schools that I went to, as well as my family. So I really don't, for me, there was not a conflict between the two.

Srini Rao

No. So, you know, having a dad who's a doctor, a mom's lawyer, I mean, I grew up in a family that's kind of similar. My dad's a professor. You were taught that you could make a living from your creativity. And I think that most people who grew up in families like yours are taught the exact opposite of that. They're taught that, you know, creativity is nice as a hobby, but the reality is, and this is partially true, it's not an easy thing to make a living from.

So why do you think that is and you know what would you say to parents who are listening to this about encouraging their kids to pursue creative careers because I can tell you my dad talked me out of a career in music and I don't regret that I think he was smart to do that but somehow it all came full circle and I still ended up doing something creative.

Virginia Bowman

Right.

Virginia Bowman

Right, I think creativity, if you are truly a creative on the inside and like the kind of creative that you have to express your creativity or you will not be happy and that's the level to which my creativity drives me. Like everything I've ever done ends up being creative. It has to come out or it just does. It's like water flowing downhill. I think there's people that are creatives to that level, I really do, where they can't be deterred.

My father was not supportive. My father flat out said, you can't make a living as an artist. Flat out. My mother was the one who said, you know, you can pursue this. So for example, when I was in high school, my mom let me know that there was art colleges. And I was like, what? There's colleges where you can go and do your art?

and that can be your profession, that can be your major. And she said, yeah. And I said, oh, I have to go to one of those, right? But my dad, on the flip side was saying, you can't make any money as an artist. So if I didn't have the support of my mom, I may have been influenced away from what was my passion. But I think some of it, to answer your question, to speak to parents, I think that you can make a living in all of these things. And I mean, you just can.

Srini Rao

No.

Virginia Bowman

You know, so I think it's good to let your children explore what is of interest to them because they're gonna find career paths in those things that are meaningful to them. And you know, we mentioned briefly in our talk before the podcast began was that I was a professor for a while, you know, and I mentored or tried to mentor, I think as professors, the best professors can mentor students and trying to find that and find that intersection between your passion and what...

what you're good at and what you like to do. So I think that there's time later in life to make those decisions that if your passion isn't gonna be a living for you, you can find it out later. I don't think it's good to dissuade it when kids are young because there's a lot of people out there that do make their livings out of the creative arts. And so that would be my advice to parents is don't dissuade them. There's time for them to find out later if it's gonna work for them.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Hmm. So your dad not believing that you could make a living as an artist, what impact did that have on the relationship between the two of you?

Virginia Bowman

Um, well, I think one of the third pieces that, that in addition to the parent and how they advise and the child's drive to be creative is probably their own decision making. So with my dad, I just felt he didn't understand me, you know, as many young people might do if the parent's not supportive. And I love my dad, don't get me wrong, I just knew that he didn't get it, right? So I will tell you that a lot of it was just my own.

stubbornness where my dad said, you know, you can't make a living as an artist. And I said, well, somebody does. I was like, somebody's making a living. And I said, well, even if it's one in a thousand, you know, that one could be me. And so I think that was the main thing is if anybody could do it, if somebody did it somewhere, then why couldn't that someone be me? So rather than being dissuaded by the fact it was one in a thousand.

Srini Rao

down.

Virginia Bowman

for me that gave me hope. Hey, somebody did it, so I'm gonna be the one in the thousand. But I think a lot of it is just having to have your own vision on who you are and who you wanna be. So not letting my dad define me, not letting my mom define me in terms of who I wanted to be, having that own determinism. So I can't say that it really negatively impacted my relationship with my dad, but it did.

Srini Rao

now.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Virginia Bowman

It did cause me to get a little bit more, I don't know if I would call it rebellious, but more, I had to lean in on my own conviction and I couldn't rely on his support necessarily.

Srini Rao

Hmm.

Yeah. So every two questions come from that. You know, when a lot of people hear the odds of one in 1000, their response isn't great. Why can't I be that one in 1000? Where does that level of self belief come from?

Virginia Bowman

I don't know. I think I've always been a little ornery. You know, I'm just, I'm that person, you know, and odds don't deter me. You know, another one is, and this is going to sound arrogant, but I was very talented from a young age. I mean, when I was six years old in kindergarten, my kindergarten teacher was saying, save this piece of art.

Srini Rao

I can relate.

Virginia Bowman

When I was 12 years old, I sold my first piece of art because it was getting framed at a gallery and somebody saw it. I was the only student in the history of my high school, which went from 7th through 12th grade, to win the Art Award every year that I was there. So I had a lot to support those ideas that I could do this. I had a lot of feedback from the outside world that I had a gift.

and I wanted to use it. I had a gift and I wanted to use it. I think that that's the main thing.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

So, you know, that makes me want to ask you a question about talent early on in childhood, because I've had Daniel Coyle here who wrote the book The Talent Code, and I've asked a handful of people about this. And I remember thinking to myself every time I came across this 10,000 hours thing, like, why the hell didn't my parents tell me to practice for 10,000 hours and become world class at this thing? And he actually, you know, gave me a surprising answer. He said, because those kids actually are the ones who don't end up succeeding later in life. They actually, he said, there's a reason musical prodigies in childhood don't become

musicians and I'm curious as somebody who had sort of this early talent and a lot of positive feedback What you think it is that distinguishes people like you who do actually end up succeeding in the arts from the ones who are also talented equally talented, but don't

Virginia Bowman

the ability to fail.

I mean literally the ability to fail. And I remember being in college, there was a friend I had who was a prodigy in tennis. And he was being groomed to go pro, he was just really amazingly talented, and he had a car accident. And after the car accident he had to go through physical therapy and rehabilitation and during that time his tennis went downhill.

And he was unable to rally because he was so used to being a success and being better than everybody. When he wasn't, he was unable to rally and keep going. And I learned from that. And what I learned from that is that that's why a lot of prodigies fall away is because no one succeeds all the time. And so when you're used to having that early success and those accolades and that positive

probably builds into your self-esteem, and then you don't get it, it's really hard for someone who's had early success to push through that and keep going. And I know that when I met with failure around my art, it was devastating to me. But if I had fallen away at that time, then I think that's where you have your early prodigy that doesn't make a successful career out of it because they haven't been able to push through the inevitable failure.

when failure comes, because failure is going to come at some point. And I really, truly believe that. You have to push through failure.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Thanks for watching!

Tell me about the first sort of devastating failure of the experience, because I know that you and I were talking before you went to Pepperdine to study art. And the thing that I can't help but think about, I remember there was this kid who played saxophone in my high school band, and he got into the Berklee College of Music, and he thought he was like the hottest thing since sliced bread. And of course, when you go to a place like the Berklee College of Music, everybody there is basically a prodigy. Many of them have been practicing since they were, you know, 10 years old. He said, you know, these kids come in prepared at a level

to what we're prepared for in public high schools. And he said he's like, I couldn't hack. He realized he wasn't gonna be able to hack it after a certain point.

Virginia Bowman

Uh.

Virginia Bowman

Oh my God, that was me. That was me. When I went, because before I went to Pepperdine, I went to Washington University in St. Louis. And I had a scholarship. I was a finalist in one of the coveted scholarships that if you were like the main winner, you had a complete full ride. But even being a finalist was, you know, a great.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Virginia Bowman

you know, it was a great accomplishment. So I was super proud and I was all excited, right? And again, it was one of the series of the successes. So then I get there. And like you said, I'll send them a small fry in a big sea where I had come from a school that, you know, it was easy to be a big fish because it was really a college preparatory school. There really weren't a lot of other artists there. And then I go to a school which there's a lot of really talented people. And...

You know, some of the professors were even like, how did this person even get the scholarship because I'm not seeing the talent? And I was devastated. I was absolutely devastated. And I remember going into a giant creative slump. You know, that's the problem with being a creative is you can get creatively blocked. And I did, I just went into this creative slump where I started questioning my talent, I started questioning.

my ability, I started questioning if I really had any talent at all, you know, and what I wanted to do. And I even changed my major for a while. I changed my major from painting to the diametric opposite, which was marine biology. And I went down to the University of Miami to study marine biology for a couple years. So I left art. I did that thing where people leave art.

I ended up circling back around after two years of majoring in marine biology and realized I can't leave art. I love it too much. I love the creative arts too much. I have to find my way back to it. So I circled back around. I changed my major back to painting. And that's when I went to Pepperdine. So Pepperdine was actually my third school. So I bounced around trying to find myself when I was younger. And I really had a lot of compassion for young people as they go through those college years and they're trying to find who they are and what they want to do.

But I found my way back to the arts and at that point I just pushed through that creative block. And I saw those same questions when I went back to the arts, but I just pushed through it probably because I found that if I wasn't doing something creative I was miserable. I mean, I just needed to do something creative. But I think that the main thing on getting through creative block is just to push through it. And it goes back to learning how to fail.

Srini Rao

No.

Srini Rao

Hmm

Yeah.

Virginia Bowman

You have to learn how to fail. The professors would say at SCAD, they would say get through all the bad drawings. So get all the bad drawings out. Get all the bad creative, get all the failures out. And fail your way to success. And that's how you learn how to fail. Is you just, you realize that it's part of the process. And then, you know, fear it anymore. And it doesn't cause you to creatively block anymore when you know it's just part of your process to produce bad stuff. I just gotta get that bad stuff out.

and then the good stuff will start coming out again after that.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I always say great creative work is basically shoveling a mountain of shit to find an ounce of gold.

Virginia Bowman

Yeah, exactly. So I think all creatives figure that out eventually, but while you're trying to figure it out, it can be tough to process.

Srini Rao

Going to multiple universities as an undergrad, I wonder what that taught you about navigating human relationships, human dynamics, because that's an unusual experience even for people who I've interviewed who all have sort of nonlinear paths. They zig and zag a lot, but I mean yours starts to zig and zag pretty early in life. Three schools before you finish college is probably not normal. And I'm wondering

One, what that taught you about human relationships, and I know that you mentioned you're a professor, so I'm curious how that impacted your perception of education in general.

Virginia Bowman

Well, those are really, there are two questions there. So the first one is, to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure. You know, that's a good question and one that I hadn't really thought about. So I think that at that young age, it was more socially. I was more, you know, more about your peers at that time in your life. And I do think that bouncing around in different colleges made it challenging.

to make friends in the end. Like in the beginning, you know, when kids go to school and everybody's a freshman, you're all in it together. But when you transfer in and everybody's sort of made their friendships, it made it a little harder. So I ended up making friends by the end of it, I ended up making a lot of friends outside of the campus and a lot of friends that I met through some groups and communities that I was in, you know, off campus, because I was on campus with freshmen and by that time they were 17 and I was 23, which.

you know, seemed like a huge difference at the time. So I had a lot of friends that, yes, I think that was part of being non-conformist too. I mean, one of my best friends that I developed at that time was someone who became a father figure to me. He was 55 years old when I was in my twenties and he ended up walking me down the aisle when I got married and he passed away this past year, but he was a dear friend of mine for all these years. And, you know, I cherish those friendships and they were sometimes outside of the box.

and I learned a lot from them. So for that, in a way, I'm grateful. Now, the second part of the question, can you refresh my memory?

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah, it was kind of a vague question. I mean, you know, having now been a professor, like, you know, when you've gone through all these different institutions, I mean, how did that shape your thinking about education in general?

Virginia Bowman

Yeah, well, as we mentioned before the podcast began officially was I was a professor for a while before I did my foray into an entrepreneur. And as a professor, one of the things that meant a lot to me was actually preparing these young men and women for the real world. I had gone to a few colleges and

When I graduated, I did still feel woefully unprepared for the real world. And I struggled when I got out because of that. And so when I was a professor, I was always thinking of what these young people really needed to succeed and how could I teach it to them, whether that made me popular with them or not. So I was a tough professor. I wasn't always a popular professor because of that.

I was tough but fair. Like I said, I always want you to get an A. I said, but you have to earn your A. You know? And I was known as being rather tough. But it was because I knew what it took to succeed out there in the real world. I knew how hard it was, what they were going to try to do.

Srini Rao

Why do you think that so few educational institutions don't actually do a good job of preparing people for that? Because I can tell you, I went to an elite university.

And I'm with you. I felt woefully unprepared to navigate the job world, or life in general. Like, I don't think that you walk out of college knowing how to navigate adult life. It's kind of just trial and error, and you screw up a lot of things, you hopefully learn from your mistakes, and you know, don't make the same ones again. But that's a really expensive way to learn, especially when time is, you know, your most limited resource.

Virginia Bowman

Yeah.

Virginia Bowman

You know, that's a hard one to answer without seeming critical of some of the professors that I taught with.

Srini Rao

I don't have a problem with you being critical of the educational system at large or even professors, so you're free to criticize.

Virginia Bowman

I think it's the problem of the ivory tower. What a horrible... This used to offend me as a professor when they said those that cannot do teach. I don't agree with that at all. That used to upset me quite a bit when I was a professor. There may be some truth to that for some. I don't know. It's not necessarily that they can't do those that can't do teach. It might be...

Sometimes there's those that are teaching that haven't done. So in other words, that's the problem. Maybe they could, but I think if you go straight from grad school and become a professor, I don't know. I think that you've missed so much. So I was out in the working world. I was, that's where we go to where I was at ImageWorks, working in the film industry, learning what it took to be successful in that arena.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Virginia Bowman

And then from there I became a professor and taught these young people that were wanting to get into the world that I had just left. And so I had practical knowledge on what it took to succeed. I don't think I could have helped them any near as much if I hadn't had that practical knowledge.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Totally. Yeah, I mean, I always wondered, I was like, how is it that there are business school professors who've never run a business or worked in one?

Virginia Bowman

Right, yeah. So I don't know, I mean, I can't speak to others, but I do know for myself, that was what I was teaching out of. I was teaching out of my experience. That's what I knew.

Srini Rao

Well, speaking of your experience in the film industry, let's talk about that because I mean, of all the arts, I think the one that is probably the biggest bloodbath of all is the film industry. And I only know this because I remember going to Pepperdine with the intention of wanting to work in media and entertainment. My dream job was to work in programming for a television network and choose what went on the air. Funny enough, now I get to choose it and create it, which is what I wanted. So in a roundabout way, I actually do get to do this thing that I set out to do.

But I got a rude awakening because I remember doing about a half a dozen informational interviews and I realized I was like, wow, nobody wants to hire an MBA to do creative work in the entertainment industry. And I'm 30 something years old. I don't have the luxury of working in the mailroom at William Morris. And I know it doesn't matter what the hell your background is. Like you could have a Harvard law degree and apparently you still start in the mailroom.

Virginia Bowman

Uh huh. Well, I worked in post-production. So I worked doing something called visual effects. Actually it could be full CG, but computer animation. So very popular in the theaters now. So it could be anything from full computer animation, like, you know, I don't know.

You name it Encanto, which is the recent one that my kids are loving. That's full CG. Or it could be visual effects, which is part film, like actual footage, combined with computer animation, which could be anything like the, I don't know, some of the good ones. Like the Star Wars were like that. But those, of course, those were very early. By the way, they redid all those. That was practical effects. But we used to work on the computer. So that is behind.

the camera or post-production. So it's a little bit different than what you're talking about. But that world is a combination of creativity and hard work. No one stuck around that didn't have an amazing work ethic. So I think that there's a little bit. I've met people who had a little bit of the wrong idea about working on movies, that they thought everybody partied. And you know.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Hahaha

Virginia Bowman

bought into the Hollywood glam a little too much. And I'm sure there's some actors, famous actors and actresses that maybe have that lifestyle, but a lot of it is a lot of talented people working hard. You know, that might be the one star that gets to show up on set drunk, but that's just one person out of hundreds that bring that movie to life. And yeah, just a lot of talented people with...

really strong work ethics, to be honest with you.

Srini Rao

I very distinctly remember, I had two friends who were surfers who were both computer graphic artists working on different films. And I remember going over to one of their houses and he was showing me what he was doing on the computer. One, I mean, his average day was anywhere between 10 to 13 hours. And when he showed me the level of detail that goes into something like a Marvel superhero, I was just like, wait, I was like, he's like, this is a fingernail on some like character. And he's like, it takes, you know, 20 hours to render a finger.

nail to get it to the level that you see on screen. And I'm like, holy crap, like really? He was like, yeah, he was like, I mean, and he worked literally from morning till night every day. No.

Virginia Bowman

That was my life right there. I mean, we would do things where the highlight, like the specular highlight in the eye of a digital character, would be scrutinized as its own past. I mean, that level of detail. Yeah. So there's a certain level of perfectionism, which goes into the high-end feature film. So when I arrived at Imageworks, which is where I learned most of what I knew, I learned on the job.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Virginia Bowman

There were two things that played well for my personality with that career path. One is I was a perfectionist. And two is I was a workaholic. And I used to think those two things were compliments. I was like, of course, I work hard and have high standards. But you really do need to have those two things to make that career a good fit for you. Because you're gonna be working crazy hours and the standards are very, very high.

Srini Rao

Yeah. So, you know, other than sort of the work ethic and perfectionism, I mean, like what separates the people who can last from the ones who don't in that industry. And so, and the other, this is just out of morbid curiosity because I absolutely love movies. I mean, by the time I see Tony Stark on the big screen, like what has gone into making that happen?

Virginia Bowman

Oh, I mean, that is not a short answer. We need two more podcasts. No. So I mean, it's a very long. There's a long process. It's a set process. It's a process that continuously evolves for computer animation because the technology is evolving nonstop, which is why the aesthetics and the end result get better and better and better. But I mean, the process starts with a story.

Srini Rao

Hahaha

Virginia Bowman

And I really can't go through all of the steps, but it starts with the story. And I think that that's one thing that you mentioned that you really like is a good story. And from there, the visuals are ironed out. And typically, there's like a storyboard, and then there's a group of people that work through the visuals. And there's look development that happens where everybody figures out the color palette. And there's many steps that go through. And they all involve different.

types of people. You know, so you have animators, you have the technical programmers that are doing the nuts and bolts part, you have modelers who are doing the 3D sculpting, you know, look development, which is the area I was in, the color and light, editors, you know, all the way through sound, you know. So that's the thing about working in the movies, which I really liked, is it takes a team of really talented people.

with a variety of skills. And I really enjoyed that because I had the utmost respect for all these people that worked on these projects with me because they were able to do what I couldn't do, but together we made something pretty impressive.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So when you see the end result of your work on a big screen, describe that feeling to me, because I'm guessing there are probably things that are so small and detailed that you actually don't see them on the screen, but you do see the final product.

Virginia Bowman

Well, when you've been working in it, you kind of do see all those little things. You know, like, oh, there's a mat line, you know, but, which is a dark line around something. But you know, I think that, you know, hopefully you feel pride, you know, if you've done your job well. And hopefully it doesn't leave your hands unless everybody signed off on it. And so usually you feel good about it, you know. Every now and then there's something where you're like, oh, cringy. You know.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Ha ha ha!

Virginia Bowman

that one got pushed out and I wish I could have been taking care of that or all my supervisors sort of pushed me in this direction and I was never happy with how that ended up. But that I would say is the exception rather than the role. Most of the time, you know, it's a good feeling, you know. It was a lot of fun working in the film industry. I will say.

Srini Rao

Okay, so I do want to briefly touch on the storytelling aspect of this because as you know alluded to everything that I look for starts with a story because I think that that's the foundation of a good podcast but I think that's the foundation of all good art is a story and you know given your background I wonder what is it that creates emotional resonance and stories that keeps people captivated to sit in a theater for two hours and just

you know, not let anything divide their attention because there are very few things in my life where I feel that my attention is just completely absorbed in the thing that I'm doing. Movies are one of them. When I watch a movie in a theater, it's like I've basically been transported into another world and for two hours I'm just captivated. How does that happen?

Virginia Bowman

Well, there's an art to story, which has been studied. And to talk about it as almost a little, it's not cliche, but it is, I would consider, tried and true, where you need to have the conflict to engage someone's, with the Western storytelling. There is actually some storytelling that doesn't involve a conflict, but typically there's some sort of challenge. And so that's sort of the basis of a good story is some sort of conflict that needs to be resolved.

But I think that the stories that engage people, there's not really a formula for what kind of story is gonna engage someone. So for example, I think Leaving Las Vegas was a movie, it was like 20 years ago or whatever, but it was really, really popular at the time. And I walked out of the theater on it. You know?

Srini Rao

I don't think I've ever walked out of the theater. Although the one movie I wish I had walked out of the theater in was Waterworld, because I think it's the biggest piece of shit the movie industry has ever made. Yeah.

Virginia Bowman

Oh yeah, I've heard that. Yeah, a lot of people didn't like that. Yeah, a lot of people didn't like Water Roll. But yeah, oh, poor Kevin Kossner. But anyway, so yeah, I walked out on it. You know, it was really, really popular. A lot of people loved that movie and I literally walked out of the theater on it. And so it's hard to say, you know, I don't think there's a formula for a great movie per se, like other than, yeah, there's a classic story arc, but I think that good storytellers...

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Virginia Bowman

capture people's emotions, but I can say what makes a great movie for me is one where there's some sort of growth and change, you know, or some sort of insight that I can relate to. So I do think that movies need to be relatable for people, but at the same time, you know, there's always a place for the lighthearted comedy. You know, you're not really going there to be emotionally educated, you're just going there for a good laugh. You know, so that's why I say it's, I don't think there's one formula.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Virginia Bowman

there's a place for all kinds of movies, from the lighthearted comedy to the serious drama to, it just depends on what kind of floats your boat. But I think in all cases, if they're not there just to make you laugh, which is takes your mind off things, a lot of good movies are ones that people can relate to on some level. It engages them on some level, their heart gets engaged.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, I mean, I, you know, it's funny. Do you remember you asked me before what I look for in podcasts? Yes. And I always tell people if there was a formula to it, then it wouldn't be unmistakable.

Virginia Bowman

Uh huh, yeah, you know, so.

Srini Rao

So speaking of conflict, what prompted you to leave the film industry if you loved it so much?

Virginia Bowman

Yeah, I did love it. But as you noted with your friend, it's crazy hours and I wanted a family. That was really, I had some coworkers that had families and there's some realities to working in that industry. For example, one of my coworkers, they had a child at home and the child was, I don't know, maybe...

four or five, young enough to not three, old enough to be talking but not old enough to really know what's going on. And he goes to work and the child says, oh, are you going home now, daddy? Because they were home so little, they thought that their parents' home was the workplace. There's another one where a different coworker, his daughter, who was a young teen, he had to work Saturdays because we had...

Srini Rao

Wow.

Virginia Bowman

We were in crunch time and she came and sat next to him while he worked in the office on a Saturday just to be able to spend time with him. So I wanted a family and I wanted to be able to know my kids. I didn't want them to not know who I was because I was gone so much and especially as a woman. And so I chose to leave that profession so that I could have my two wonderful kids and have time with them.

Srini Rao

Hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah. So figuring out what you're going to do next, I mean, after you've established a foundation in this career, clearly good at it, what did that process look like?

Virginia Bowman

Well, once I had kids and anybody who's got kids is probably going to attest to this, my decision, all my decisions revolve around them. I mean, they're always, they're always a, if they're not, they're most of the time, the decision, the deciding point of whatever I'm doing. So in other words, they're always factored in, but usually it's because of them. So what I chose to do after that is I went, that's why I went into teaching because, you know, teaching was the one career that I could do that, you know,

When they were in school, I was in school. When they have summer, I have summer off. When they have Christmas, the breaks may be a little different as a professor versus their elementary and middle and high schools, but it was going to be a lot more time than I could spend with them. And so I would finish up at 1.30, two o'clock with my professorship.

and I would come and spend time with my kids and I would put the kids to bed and then I would stay up till midnight finishing my work. So, I would do just about anything for them.

Srini Rao

Yeah. So one thing that I found when I was talking to a lot of our listeners, particularly ones who are parents, I was doing research to kind of understand what their big challenges were, especially when it comes to doing this creative thing that they want to do. A lot of them felt guilt around prioritizing this thing that they wanted to do because it felt like they were neglecting their kids.

by doing this thing that made them happy. And I'm just curious as somebody who, you know, has just said that you make almost every decision based on your kids, like, what do you say to those people?

Virginia Bowman

wouldn't be able to give them any advice because I didn't go that route. I actually put my kids first for about 12 years. And then now they've gotten older, so then I sort of, I've left being a professor to be an entrepreneur, and so now, once again, my days are, I mean, I work all the time. But I waited for them to get older, and I don't have an answer for that. So.

For example, when I was a professor, I put my kids first and I felt I was put myself out to pasture a little bit. Like I knew I had all these skills and talents I wasn't using, but I did it for them. I did it for my kids so I could be there for them. But then once they got older, and I'm still young enough to go on with my, I have plenty of working years left, I said, okay, I wanna push myself some more. So once they got to be like 12, 13, 14, now I'm launching, I'm off.

doing my own thing and I'm working these crazy hours and I feel the guilt. You know, I suffer from the guilt. I suffer from, you know, that time that, gosh, I wish I could spend more time with my kids. Even though they are older and they don't need me as much, I still wish I could be there with them more. And, you know, I'd love for somebody to give me an answer to that, because I don't really want to do it. So, you know, I'll stay posted for future podcasts where you ask that question and maybe get some.

Srini Rao

Hehehehe

Srini Rao

Fair enough. Well, I appreciate your honesty about it. So leaving your job as a professor and deciding to become an entrepreneur, I mean, obviously there are numerous variables that have to be taken into account. First off, figuring out what you're gonna do is one of them and then deciding that that's the thing you wanna do, but also integrating all the experience of your past. First off, how did you decide on what it was that you wanted to do next? And what prompted you to decide that, okay, now is the time?

Virginia Bowman

Yeah, so as I noted for a long time, I really enjoyed teaching, first of all, I want to tell you that. I did and do really enjoy helping other people. I was a tough professor, but I was tough because I felt like that was what I needed to do. Like I felt I would do the students a disservice if I wasn't, and that's why I was a tough professor, because I thought that was the information they needed, whether the students always liked it or not. But...

I did at the same time feel that I had so many skills and abilities that I wasn't using. I mean, I knew that I had so much more that I could offer. So after my kids got older, I wanted to do two things. One, I wanted to use my skills and abilities more because I truly believe those are put in us so that we can be of service to the outside world. That's how we plug in. We're interconnected. And for two, since they were older, they didn't need me as much. I didn't have to be home.

home with them as often, they're getting more and more independent. But the main thing is I wanted more control of my financial future. And as a professor, I didn't have that. So thus my foray off to entrepreneurship, because as an entrepreneur, I can control my financial future. Now that's a double-edged sword, right? Yeah. It is. It's a risk.

Srini Rao

Yeah, exactly that was gonna be my next question you kind of read my mind

Virginia Bowman

So you have to be willing to take risks. And that goes back to what we talked about before, which is that believing in yourself. If you don't believe in yourself, you're not gonna try this because it is a huge risk. And so it takes some courage and it takes self-confidence and then it takes a lot of hard work. But I believed that I could provide for my kids more. So ultimately they...

Srini Rao

No.

Virginia Bowman

They were the genesis for that decision, that if I would go out on my own, that I could better provide for them. And so that's what I did.

Srini Rao

Okay, so I want to dig deeper into that because a lot of people would probably believe the exact opposite, that if I go out on my own and do this thing, I actually would be worse off in terms of my capability to provide for my kids because of the risk involved. So first off, if people don't actually have this self-belief, is that something they can build and if so, how?

Virginia Bowman

I think that it can be built, but I think that would be a journey because self-confidence isn't in soup, add water. And if you're struggling with it, I think surrounding yourself with people that believe in you. But also probably do some good inventory of your skill set so that you can take a look at what you're bringing to the table honestly. And you're not.

You don't feel like you're flying on air, you know, with nothing really to hold you up. Those would be good places to start. But I do think that one of the key ingredients is people who believe in you, that are close to you. So surround yourself with people that believe in you and that little expression, stick with the winners. I really do believe in that. Take note of people that have done what you wanna do. Get advice from them. Continuously learn.

Because there's one thing is even though I have a lot of confidence in myself, I absolutely don't do this on my own, you know, and that's the thing. Because if I tried to do it totally on my own, I do believe I would fail. You know, constantly learning from other people, constantly growing and changing, I think that's really key.

Srini Rao

So one of the things that you said before we officially hit record here was that you don't all innovators have, you know, a healthy level of ego, but it's also backed up by something. And I feel like there are a couple of places where you often see people who have this sort of healthy level of ego where it's backed up by nothing. What do you think that happens?

Virginia Bowman

Uh-huh.

Virginia Bowman

I think that there has to be a reality check time. And that's tough. That's the hard truth. So it goes back. It's interesting because you asked about what I do now for a living and how is that a culmination of my life. But your question kind of touches on it. So when I was a professor, which I go back to, I used to talk to the students about that intersection between what you love to do and what you're good at.

And you have to find that sweet spot because there is plenty out there that you may love to do and even again you might have an ego around or say, oh I can do this. But the reality is you have to put it to the acid test. So if you're failing, you have to learn how to fail. It's funny, it's like I guess none of this is going to come overnight because it's all a process. But you have to learn how to fail. You have to learn how to persevere through failure. But if you're failing, failing and you're never pushing through it.

then you kind of have to take a look at that too. Right? And say, well, maybe this is just not a good fit for me. And you have to have that honest talk to yourself. And none of that's going to be instant. That's all just kind of learning through experience, I think.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, I think that

In my mind, the self-help world and sort of, you know, personal development is notorious for encouraging people to do things which they have no natural aptitude for. And it creates sort of this delusional optimism. So I had a mentor who used to say, you know, he was like, you know, people focus on the possibility of being able to do something, but they completely ignore the probability of their success. And the example is like, you know, you and I could compete to, you know, go into the Olympics, like we could potentially do curling. And he said, but the ought, the probability that either of us will ever

or make it to the Olympics are pretty much zero. And I always say, you know, like, I'm a scrawny Indian person. No matter how hard I worked, I'm never gonna play in the NBA. It's just not gonna happen. And like, I think that there is, like the idea that genetic determinism matters really pisses people off, but I hate to say it. I think there's a grain of truth to that.

Virginia Bowman

world.

Virginia Bowman

Yeah, yeah. You're not gonna, just because you're passionate about it doesn't mean you're gonna be good at it. And that is the heartbreaking truth. And I dealt with that a lot as a professor. Especially I worked with a lot of animators and animation is really popular. So there was a lot of people that would come in and they wanted to be animators. Oh, I wanna be an animator. You know, and they had no talent. And it's heartbreaking because what do you do? You know, how do you like tell them? And the best way you can tell them is to give them a poor grade. I'm so sorry, but it's the truth. You know, because they have to.

If you just shuffle them along and pat them on the head, you're doing them a huge disservice. So I think it's important for people to kind of see that, but I do think that there's gonna be something that, I do think that there's a sweet spot for everybody. I don't think, maybe I'm overly optimistic on this, but I don't think anybody on this planet is cursed with...

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Virginia Bowman

having no aptitude at anything that they like and having no love for anything that they're good at. I think that if you search for it, you're going to find it.

Srini Rao

No.

I'm curious, I mean, you basically said, you know, the way you tell people that they don't have any talent for something is, you know, by giving them a bad grade. I'm curious if you had students who were open-minded enough to recognize what, you know, they were getting from you in terms of feedback and make a shift and, you know, how you have a conversation with them that actually encourages them to find something they're good at versus discourages them, you know, to give up completely.

Virginia Bowman

Well, I mean, I think that, say if you're talking with somebody who's in that searching mode, the best thing you can do to be positive rather than negative is just encourage them to search, you know, and encourage them to use their time wisely to keep exploring new things because that's how they're going to find the right thing. So rather than just focusing on...

you know, what they're not good at, encourage them to explore and exploring is fun, you know, so go out, explore, see what's out there. It's going to hit, you know, and just make it more of a positive endeavor.

Srini Rao

I'm curious, I mean, do you have any students who when you kind of pretty much make it clear to them you have no natural aptitude for this thing that resisted that idea or really pushed back on you? And do you have any who proved you wrong?

Virginia Bowman

Um, yes and yes. So, but, but first of all, I would never, me myself, I would never tell someone they have no natural aptitude. One of my favorite movies is The Princess Bride. And I don't know if you know the story. I forget the guy who wrote the script, which is, I should look it up if I knew I was going to be talking about it, but he was actually told he had no talent at all.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

That is such one of the best stories of all time too.

Virginia Bowman

Yeah, it's awesome. He was literally told, don't even bother. You're terrible. You just forget it. Just forget all about it. And thank gosh he didn't. So I would never tell someone, even if I thought that they had no option, I would never tell them that. Because maybe there's stuff I don't know. All I'm going to do is give them an assessment for whatever they did for me. That's it. I'm not going to tell them where to go after that. That's for them to decide. And I can't really even predict if I'm right or wrong.

Seriously, because I think that a professor or an educator should always have that humility that they don't actually have the answer. But all they can do is provide their honest feedback for that moment or that task. So yeah, I wouldn't tell them that they didn't have talent or aptitude. But I think that people kind of figure that out on their own eventually.

because people get discouraged with failure. So for example, if they are going through multiple things where they're really just not seeing that success, people do tend to kind of figure that out.

Srini Rao

Tell me a story about a student who proved you wrong, who you didn't think had it, but ended up, you know, surprising you.

Virginia Bowman

Yeah. That was the second part of your question. Thank you for reminding me. So I won't say as a student that necessarily didn't have it, but there was a student. And I won't say the name. But I'm so proud of him. He was one of my students that I admired his work ethic and his dedication. And he took some classes from me. Like I said, I used to be a technical director for color and lighting.

when I worked in the film industry. And then I taught classes for technical direction for color and lighting. And he was in my classes and his early works were, you know, medium. You know, they were medium, they were okay. They didn't really stand out as any spectacular work. But as I taught him over multiple classes over several years, he just flourished. He always persevered.

He sought out feedback, he worked extra outside of class to improve his skills, and he got better and better and better and better. And recently on LinkedIn, I saw him post that he had done one of the most spotlighted scenes for Encante for the lighting at Disney. And he's a real success story. I'm very, very proud of him through his hard work and perseverance.

If you had asked me that he would go that route in his first couple of projects, I would never have known it.

Srini Rao

Yeah. It's kind of funny because it reminds me of what they say about Navy SEAL training where they can't predict who's actually going to make it through. They always say that, you know, it's the people often who you don't think will make it through that do. He said, you'll have these guys who are huge that appear tough as nails, and then you'll have this like scrawny nerdy kid and the guy who's tough as nails cracks in the first few weeks of training. And it's the scrawny nerdy kid who gets through the training.

Virginia Bowman

Yeah, yeah. So I think you have to let people kind of be who, become who they're gonna become. And yeah, I remember interestingly enough, cause this is reminding me of it. When I was in college myself, I had a professor, he really lit a fire under me. He was in not necessarily the good way. He looked at one of my drawings or paintings and he told me that he thought that I would end up working for Hallmark.

Srini Rao

Hahaha

Virginia Bowman

And two things about that. One, that was intended to be an insult, but for two, what's wrong with Hallmark? You know what I mean? What's wrong with if someone was working for Hallmark and that's what they love to do? Now it wasn't what I wanted to do, so he did light a fire under me with that as like a push, but at the same time, you know, why poo on that for someone who, that's a meaningful occupation for them.

Srini Rao

Well, I think that raises one final question about the ability to take feedback because I can tell you from having worked with a really, really tough writing coach who I intentionally chose because I knew she would not sugarcoat anything. And it took me a month before I stopped taking her feedback personally. I realized, okay, this is feedback on my work and not on me, but she didn't sugarcoat shit. She was just like, literally her comments on my manuscript would be like, lazy, try again. And my books are a thousand times better.

And it took me a long time to learn how to do that. So for example, I recently asked one of our podcast guests who's a CEO of a really successful startup if he would be an advisor. And I told him, I said, I don't need you to tell me what I want to hear. I need you to tell me what I need to hear, even if I don't want to hear it. And my first mentor was like that. And I was not equipped emotionally at the time to take that kind of feedback. And honestly, what I realized he had done was prepare me for much higher stakes situations. And I wonder,

Virginia Bowman

Yeah.

Srini Rao

you know, how you learn to develop the thick skin that is necessary to take sometimes very harsh and critical feedback that is accurate, because I see this a lot of creatives, they're hyper sensitive about difficult feedback.

Virginia Bowman

Uh huh. Yeah, that's a great question too. When I was younger, I was absolutely hypersensitive and I would be devastated if I didn't get, even like if I got a good and it wasn't an excellent, I would be devastated. And obviously that type of thin skin is not going to survive in the professional world. And so...

It takes time to develop a thick skin. And I can't really say what can help other people other than probably just persevere and eventually you get over it. It does take a healthy dose of self-confidence. So for example, for a long time now, if I produce work that, you know, when I was working in production, if my boss didn't like or now my client doesn't like, I actually don't take it personally. And I don't take it as a reflection of my talent. Like I already, I feel confident that I have talent.

But what I do know is that I haven't hit the mark. You know what I mean? And so I think that when you, you have to get disassociated from your work. You can't identify with it so much. So if your work doesn't hit the mark, you can't be, that's not an attack on you. And it also doesn't mean that you're no good. It just means that it didn't hit the mark. And so you just need to try again with something a little bit different. And so I think, you know, you just kind of have to rest in the idea that you know that you have talent.

and be okay with the fact that, you know, you need to try something a different way and it's part of the process and it really is okay. But I think that comes with a little bit of time and practice as well. I mean, what are your thoughts on that?

Srini Rao

Yeah. I, you know, like I said, I mean, I think you're right. It's something that, like I said, when I was younger, I mean, even five, six years ago, when my mentor would ride my ass, I mean, I would leave those conversations just pretty much in tears. Now I'm like, you know what? I'm thick skinned enough that, you know, I'm okay with you telling me what I need to hear. It's like if I'm being a jackass, tell me.

And I need to know that because at the end of the day, like it's not about me, it's about the success of the business. And if me being a jackass is gonna be detrimental, then I need to know that my behavior is potentially putting, or even my work is putting the success of my company at risk.

Virginia Bowman

Mm-hmm. And I know, I mean for me it's like the idea, you know, that just what you said there is continuously improving, you know, and we can't improve unless we look at what we need, what's there to improve, you know. So then we're stuck. So if we want to get better and better, you've got to kind of take the bitter pill of hearing where and how. So that's the other part. Yeah.

Srini Rao

Absolutely. Great. Well, this has been amazing. I have one final question for you, which is how we finish all of our interviews at the Unmistakable Creative. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Virginia Bowman

I think that it's tapping into what is unique about them, what they're passionate about, because I think that's how they find their unique expression on what they're gonna be able to give to the world. And I know that sounds a little bit spiritual, but I do think that's what makes each of us unique.

Srini Rao

Amazing. Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story, your wisdom and insights with all listeners. Where can people find out more about you, your work and everything you're up to?

Virginia Bowman

They can go to my company domain which is synergeticmedia.com and I can always be reached by email ginger.boman at synergeticmedia.com

Srini Rao

Awesome. And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.