Gloria Mark | Attention Span: A Groundbreaking Way to Restore Balance, Happiness and Productivity

Gloria Mark: Every time we switch attention, think of it as erasing. The information you needed for that last task and having to rewrite new information for the current task you're doing.

And that's a switch cost that takes time for our minds to come up with this new information. Sometimes just like with a real whiteboard, we can't erase it completely and there's a residue. And so if I'm reading some gripping news story and then I try to go back to work, that news story might stay with me and interfere with my task at hand.

So that's another kind of cost. And of course, you're right, it causes stress. We know from laboratory research it increases blood pressure. There's a physiological marker that's associated with stress that rises. In my work where we've used heart rate monitors, we see a very strong correlation with stress.

And attention shifting and people report subjectively that they have higher perceived stress when their attention shifts.

Srini: I'm Srinivas Rao and this is the Unmistakable Creative Podcast.

Gloria Mark: Creative podcasts where you get a window into the stories and insights of the most innovative

Srini: And creative minds who started movements built thriving

Gloria Mark: Businesses, written

Srini: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. I've written bestselling books and created insanely interesting art. For more, check out our 500-episode archive at unmistakablecreative.com.

Gloria Mark: Thank you for having me.

Srini: It is my pleasure to have you here. So I found out about you because you have a new book out called Attention Span, which obviously is something that I think every one of us who is listening to this is concerned with, and your name had come up so many times in the books I've read by former podcast guests, so I figured it was a no-brainer to reach out to you. But before we get into the book and your work, I wanted to start by asking you, what did your parents do for a living and how did that end up shaping what you ended up doing with your life and career?

Gloria Mark: Vince, that's very interesting. My father was an auditor for the government. He actually worked for the Air Force as a civilian. And my mother was a secretary and later became a court reporter, but she also worked for the government. Yeah, both of my parents worked for the government.

Srini: What impact did that end up having on you? And what was your narrative about making your way in the world, in your household? Because I remember from early on in the book that you actually initially pursued a career in the arts.

Gloria Mark: Yes. So, it wasn't so much the fact that my parents worked for the government. It was more the fact that my parents really had an appreciation for reading. And so they read a lot. They, in fact, always disparaged our school system because they didn't force kids to read so much. But my parents were role models in the sense that they not only read a lot, but I felt that they had more of an intellectual bent than most of the people in the area where I grew up.

Srini: every time I talk to educators, I am always curious about how they would actually redesign our modern education system. I know that you are in the UC system. My dad is a professor in the UC system, and he and I go back and forth constantly about the value of education. And as a Berkeley undergrad, I always joked that I was a failed byproduct of this system.

But if you had been tasked with redesigning the entire system from the ground up, based on your upbringing and what you said about not instilling more reading in kids, what would you change about the way that we educate?

Gloria Mark: People? Oh, wow. That's a big topic. Do you want me to talk from the perspective of the student or the perspective of professors and teachers?

How about you? Give me both. Okay. All right. So the overriding theme that covers both of them is to restructure the system, along with incentives, so that people can have longer periods of time to focus. So from a student's perspective, they're always switching between different classes. And of course, we know that when people shift their attention very fast, they make more errors. They can't really get very deeply into a topic. It does create stress, but the system is designed for kids to be switched back and forth. Then, of course, they have their own personal spheres that they're also switching back and forth.

My daughter went to Colorado College, which has a very different approach. They do one class at a time, and you get very deeply immersed in one class for a period. I think it's about six weeks, and you do nothing else except that class. You live, breathe, and think about that class. And as a result, I think that's a much better educational experience for students because they can really

Srini: You mentioned this idea of going deep and I knew that I was going to be talking to you, and I wanted to bring back a clip from a conversation I had with David Epstein, who wrote the book, Range.

Gloria Mark: Going forward to higher ed, which you mentioned, I think there are two main issues here. The first is what I write about in a book called The End of History Illusion. This psychological finding states that at every time point in life, we will all recognize that we have changed a lot in the past due to our experiences. But then we'll say, "But now I'm pretty much done," and we will be wrong. We will underestimate future change at every time point, even when we're very old. But at no time is that more true than from about 18 to the late twenties; that's when we undergo the fastest period of personality change. So essentially, right at the start of that period, we're asking someone to pick a person they don't yet know and a world they can't yet conceive unless they have a crystal ball.

Srini: Most people don't. So how do you balance what David is saying there with this idea of also going really deep into one area?

Gloria Mark: Yeah, I don't think there's a contradiction at all because I think if a person really becomes proficient in one area, it's possible to take that expertise and be able to transfer it into something else. I started out in art, in fine art, so my first degree is in fine art and I was able to switch over to science, and I found that the experience of doing art and learning how to do what's called lateral thinking, which is a form of creativity, I found that to be so useful in my career as a scientist.

because it enabled me to form hypotheses that maybe a lot of people might not have done, because typically science trains people in linear, logical thinking, and this creates a pretty narrow range of reasoning. And so I, I do think that a person can really become deeply proficient in one area, and then you can take that experience. It's a different topic, but you can take that experience you have of learning and you can apply it in a different area. Yeah.

Srini: Anyone who's a parent listening to this, who has a kid who is starting college or is already in college, what would you say to them about helping their kids make the most of that college experience?

Gloria Mark: Oh, I'm a big advocate of that. Young people should study whatever they're passionate about. Really find what you're interested in, and you will make it work in terms of becoming sustainable after you graduate, but really study what you're passionate about. And I've met so many people that have majored in fields where you wouldn't think there would be a financial reward, but they managed to make it work.

And it's so important to keep that passion alive when a student is in their undergraduate and through graduate school if they choose to go there. Yeah.

Srini: I would imagine that would make paying attention a lot easier. Just hearing you say that, I look back to my own experience at Berkeley, and I realized I was never genuinely interested in any of the things that I was studying; they were all a means to an end. And so it was always hard for me to focus. I realized the times that it was easiest to actually pay attention were the times when I was genuinely curious or interested in something.

Gloria Mark: Yes, absolutely. And that's, this is another problem with the educational system. Why is it that we've created courses that it's so hard for students to become interested in them?

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Explore more @IKEAUSA.com. Again, that's IKEAUSA.com. Let's get into the book. What in the world led you on the trajectory from studying fine arts to studying attention?

Gloria Mark: It was a person by the name of Manfred Cochen. And let me also start by saying, by the time I graduated from art, I realized how hard it was to make a living in art. And I saw the most talented recent graduates who were working at jobs eight hours a day in things they didn't like in order to support their art. And a lot of people can do that, but that wasn't for me. And I also was good in other things like math and science, and I thought, I can't be equally creative in those areas and I would have an easier time getting a job.

So I switched. And so I was at the University of Michigan starting graduate work and I needed a job I saw an ad for a research assistant. And so this was the ad was put out by Manfred Cochen, who was an information scientist. And I went and visited him and he asked me, “Can you code?" I said, "Nope. Do you know network theory? Nope. Do you know queuing theory? Nope.” He asked me all these things and I kept saying no. And so I just picked up my backpack, thanked him and

Srini: You opened the book by saying that people say that it's just too hard to focus when they're on their computers and smartphones. We will see in this book that distractions are not just due to notifications popping up across their screens or the chimes of their phones. Surprisingly, people are just as often distracted by something within themselves, a thought of memory, an urge to look up information, or a desire to connect with others. When you're immersed in the world's largest candy store, it's hard to resist sampling it. How did we get into this mess in the first place? And, is there a way out of it that isn't as extreme as our friend Cal Newport talks about?

Gloria Mark: What about? There most certainly is a way out. How did we get ourselves into this position? As you mentioned, it's the world's largest candy store and every year there's always some new source of distraction that enters.

And not every year, I would say, every week. So we're certainly faced with all kinds of potential distractors. You can turn off notifications, of course. I think many, maybe most people do. So it's not only external notifications that cause our attention to wander, but it's also thoughts inside ourselves. And we're almost as likely to interrupt ourselves as to be interrupted by something external, even a phone call. And where do these inner urges come from? They come from habit. It could come from remembering something we had to do. Also, a big component of that was discovered by a researcher about a hundred years ago called Bluma Zeigarnik.

And Bluma Zeigarnik, who worked at the University of Berlin and found that when people have interrupted tasks, they're more likely to remember them than tasks that are finished. Why? Because when you finish something, it's off your plate; you're done with it. When

Srini: Let's talk about multitasking because you say there's a paradox in the very design of the internet itself, a structure that makes it easy to find information and maps onto how our memory is organized as a network of associations.

But the node and link structure of the internet also gets us into spending countless hours surfing the internet. We may have the illusion that we're doing more, and that our human capacity has expanded when we shift our attention when we multitask, but we're actually doing less. And thinking about this internet rabbit hole thing, it reminded me of an old business partner who told me he got on Google one day, I think he was reading about an upcoming election, and by the time he was done, he had told me that he had basically spent an hour researching spirit cooking about elected officials.

I was like, how the heck did you get from researching current politics to spirit cooking?

Gloria Mark: That sounds very familiar. I hear that a lot. I experienced that myself too. Let's when talking about how the internet is designed to distract us let's start with the original idea of the web and it goes back to, The engineer Vannevar Bush with his idea of the memex.

And I know a lot of people have heard about the memex idea. Have you heard of it? Do you know about it? Yeah. Yeah. But a lot of people haven't, so maybe I can explain it very quickly. So Vannevar Bush was the head of the US Office of Scientific Research in 1945, and he had to deal with a lot of information he was very dissatisfied with the current system of organizing information, which was the Dewey Decimal System.

And that organized information based on a hierarchy. And he said this doesn't work because that's not how humans think in terms of associations. So he came up with this idea, the memex. Which was a concept. It was never built. And the idea was that all of our personal information should be linked together through its associations.

So for example, if I had a dinner party

Srini: Let's talk about multitasking because you say that it's been shown to be associated with lower performance when objectively measured. You talk about the switch costs and negative emotions, but you say the highest cost is in using our precious and limited attentional capacity or cognitive resources, especially when we have to keep track of multiple interrupted tasks. It's like having a tank that leaks and leaves less fuel for actually doing our work.

So how do we deal with this issue of multitasking? In a world where we are constantly interrupted, or, right now I have one browser tab open, which has my note-taking app which happens to be organized exactly like the web, but it has my notes for your book, for example, and I have to keep other things shut off. So how do we deal with this issue of multitasking?

Gloria Mark: So first of all, you're right in the sense that there is a performance cost. So we know that multitasking causes higher errors. We know this from real-world studies of physicians, nurses, and pilots. We know this from decades of laboratory studies that show multitasking leads to more errors.

You write about a switch cost that every time you switch your attention to something else, it takes time to orient to that new activity. And so when we're switching very rapidly, and we do switch very rapidly on our screens, on average 47 seconds, we're always having to reorient. And the metaphor that I like to use is that we have this internal whiteboard in our minds and every time we switch attention, think of it as erasing the information we needed for that last task and having to write new information for the current task you're doing.

And that's a switch cost that takes time for our minds to come up with this new information. Sometimes just like with a real whiteboard, we can't erase it completely and there's a residue. And so if I'm reading some gripping news story and then I try to go back to work, that news story parts of it might stay with me

Srini: Yeah. So one thing you talk about is these four distraction myths. The first is that we should always strive to be focused on our computers, and in that way, we can be productive. Flow is the ideal state we should strive for when we use our technologies, distractions, interruptions, and multitasking. We experience while on our devices are due primarily to the notifications we receive and to our own lack of discipline. The mindless activity that we do on our computers has no value.

And it's funny because some of that flies in the face of a lot of the things that people like Steven Kotler and Cal Newport have written about. So talk to me about these four distraction myths.

Gloria Mark: Sure. So let's start with the idea of having long periods of unbroken focus. We have limited attentional resources and, you can't have long stretches of unbroken focus without taking a break in the same way that we can't lift weights all day without taking a break, right?

We use up our resources when we're focused. The idea of flow, right? It's a wonderful idea. It's an idea that psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihályi came up with. And it's the idea that we are so immersed in what we're doing that we just lose track of time. We're just not aware of time passing.

When I was in art, I would get into flow regularly. And so if a person is in a field like art or music or if you do sports if you have a hobby that you're passionate about woodworking or ceramics these are all ways that you can get into flow when you can get into flow pretty easily.

But for people who do knowledge work. It's a different kind of mindset. It's more of an analytical kind of thinking that's done. And

Srini: So the thing that caught my attention about all the activities you mentioned is that none of them involved the internet or the computer.

Gloria Mark: There's nothing inherently wrong with doing some simple activity on your phone or the computer either. The go-to activity that I turn to is an anagram game. It's very easy. And it just gives my mind a kind of break, but I'm lightly very lightly engaged. The problem is when we get stuck, when we go in, into a rabbit hole with these games. And so you have to be very strategic and you have to make sure to limit your time when you do it.

So if you've got a few minutes before you know you're gonna go into a tough meeting sure, that's fine to do one of these simple activities there's no problem. You've got this hook to pull you out, which is the meeting. But don't get yourself stuck. That's the important point.

These simple activities can be very alluring and magnetic and keep us stuck to them. And so you need to devise a way to not get yourself stuck. Which is setting a timer, and probing yourself. Keep asking yourself, do I feel replenished? Okay, time to step back.

Srini: Another thing I noticed is that you didn't mention social media as one of these rote activities because, I have a feeling that, a lot of people are thinking to themselves, great, that means I can go and screw around on Facebook for a little bit.

And I'm curious what your research shows about that because I feel like that when I do any of the things you were mentioning as a rote activity, I would find them replenishing. But for some reason, if I go on social media it usually turns into hours of distraction. Don't get me wrong, there are times when I've gone on social media where I've actually gotten something useful.

Like I've met a lot of podcast guests from browsing Twitter. Sometimes something somebody writes on Facebook sparks an idea for a blog post. But I'm curious, about the role of social media when it comes to these rote activities.

Gloria Mark: Yeah. So, it depends on the individual. I probably would not recommend doing social media as a way to take a quick break. For some people, it doesn't make them very happy, for others they do. By the way, the research is really mixed on its and it's very nuanced on the effects that social media has on our moods. I would be very careful with social media, and you're right, it's easy to go down a rabbit hole in social media.

Srini: Let's talk about this idea of cognitive resource allocation, because you say that your cognitive resources can drain and that affects your performance in the short term, say when you're working on an hour-long task or dealing with interruptions. But in the long run, over the day, homeostatic variation of the time lapse since you woke up is also stated with declining performance.

The reason you feel drained and start making errors is likely that you've been using these limited resources like there's no tomorrow, and the demands on them exceed what you have available. And you say the theory of limited cognitive resources can explain your performance when your workload is high.

When I read that section of your book, it sparked an idea for a blog post, basically talking about how do you plan your day based on cognitive resource allocation. So talk to me about that. Like how would I, for example, somebody who hosts podcasts, interviews, writes, reads, etc., based on cognitive resource allocation, like how would I allocate my cognitive resources most efficiently?

Gloria Mark: Effectively?

Yeah, that's such a great question. So we found that people have rhythms over the course of the day for when they're at their peak focus and when they're in, you can think of it as a trance. And so, one of the first things that you can do is understand when your peak focus times are. And it has to do with a lot of things, it concerns your chronotype. Are you an early type? If so, your peak will be earlier in the day. Are you a late type? It's gonna be later. We find that for most people, their peak focus times are mid to late morning, and then again mid to late afternoon, like two to 3:00 PM. So plan your day so that the hardest task you have to do and the task that requires the most creativity are done at those peak focus times.

Most people actually don't start their day doing their hardest tasks, but they ramp themselves up. They get themselves ready. Think of it as getting those wheels turning to do those really hard tasks when they're a little bit later. So for example, for myself, I start my day usually doing email, which is to get

Yeah, that's such a great question. So we found that people have rhythms over the course of the day for when they're at their peak focus and when they're in, you can think of it as a "trance." And so one of the first things that you can do is understand when your peak focus times are. And it has to do with a lot of things. It concerns your chronotype. Are you an early type? If so, your peak will be earlier in the day. Are you a late type? It's gonna be later. We find that for most people, their peak focus times are mid to late morning, and then again mid to late afternoon, like 2 to 3 PM. So plan your day so that the hardest task you have to do and the task that requires the most creativity are done at those peak focus times.

Most people actually don't start their day doing their hardest tasks. But they ramp themselves up. They get themselves ready. Think of it as getting those wheels turning to do those really hard tasks when they're a little bit later. So for example, for myself, I start my day usually doing email, which is to get it out of the way. For the most part

Srini: Let's talk about this idea of shifting between working spheres. So for example, right now I'm talking to you, I'm doing an interview for my podcast, but when I'm done, the thing I know that I want to work on is something that I'm writing, and I'm curious about the transition between working spheres and how you do that without draining your cognitive resources.

Gloria Mark: When you need to take a break, it's best to do it at what's called a breakpoint in the task. So do it at a point in the task where you have completed a thought, so you know, never interrupt yourself. In the middle of a paragraph, finish, finish a section of what you're writing. Or if you're working on a budget, finish a complete portion of that budget before you start and switch to something else. We want to minimize this notion of the 'fragmented effect', where you've got this unfinished task and you have to go back to it. Of course, if you're still writing that book chapter, you're still working on that budget, it's still gonna be in the back of your mind. But it'll have less tension for you because you've already come to a resting point in that task. The best thing of all is to 'monotask', to be able to work through one task to completion before working on something else.

Going back to what we talked about earlier in the show about reforming the university system for professors, I think it's so useful if professors just had a single project to work on, but they really worked on it in

Srini: Okay. Let me frame this with a concrete example. So I conduct my interview with you. I know it's gonna be published, probably about three weeks from now or so. We have to basically put it into our database where it gets marked as recorded. I have to add a headshot so our illustrator can do an album cover and then I'll go back to doing whatever it was I was working on prior to the interview. So I guess the question then is, a lot of times I end up just marking the interview as recorded and then going back to whatever I was doing, and I end up having to go back and do that stuff later. So I'm just curious if we were talking about this in particular, how would you approach this based on your research? Say I've finished my interview with you, I know the next thing I want to do is work on my writing project. What does that look like, in the transition between those two working spheres? Ideally?

Gloria Mark: Okay. So, would you say that the interview is completed, except for the fact?

Srini: That once, yeah, once you and I have recorded and I press stop record and we both hang up, to me the interview is completed at that point. Granted, there are ancillary tasks that need to be done in order for the interview to be published. But the interview is completed.

Gloria Mark: I would certainly suggest taking a break, and getting your mind refreshed so that you're not just moving directly from one working sphere to another. The problem that really became exacerbated during the pandemic was that people would schedule Zoom meetings back to back. And then they would go from one meeting to another without any transition in between. So it's important to have a transition between working spheres, so it gives your mind a chance to refresh a bit and clear out the clutter from the last thing we did so that you're ready to tackle something new.

The typical practice of scheduling our day is to schedule things back to back, at 11 o'clock, here's what I'm doing, at 12 o'clock, here's what I'm doing. Instead of scheduling things back to back like that, schedule things based on how much attention you have available, considering the fact that you need some time to replenish, and build your resources back up. And if you just did an interview that's probably spending a good deal of your attentional capacity. So step back for a bit, replenish, and then you can go on and do your writing. Yeah.

Srini: That's actually why I only do one interview per day because I noticed that if I tried to do more than one, the quality would decline.

Gloria Mark: And I would think so because you're expending so much mental energy in doing this and it's, there, there would be a residue I would think because you've been very immersed in this interview and suddenly you're switching to do writing and sometimes it's hard to get some of the content out of your mind of the last working sphere that you did. Yeah.

Srini: Talk to me about the four properties of human agency from Bandura and this concept of meta-awareness to actually have some control over our behavior when it comes to our digital habits.

Gloria Mark: Yeah, I draw on the work of Albert Bandura, who was a very prominent social psychologist who worked on the idea of self-efficacy. And I do believe that people can gain agency and control over their attention in the digital world. And so the first property is called intention. And a lot of things we do when we're on our devices are automatic. So I might grab my phone, that's an automatic behavior. I might switch to the news or to social media. That's automatic. Sometimes these internal interruptions, these self-interruptions we do are based on automatic behaviors. Responding to notifications is automatic. The idea is to make these automatic actions conscious, to bring them into our conscious awareness. And when we can do that, then we can be intentional and act on it.

And so meta-awareness is this idea of being aware of what you're doing as it's unfolding. The idea came to me during the pandemic. My university offered a course in mindfulness-based stress reduction, and I found it very valuable. It helps you focus on the present. And I realized that we could do something very similar when we're on our devices and we can probe ourselves by asking ourselves

Srini: One other thing that caught my attention in that section on the agency was the idea of distraction blockers and the idea that we're effectively outsourcing our agency but not developing our capacity for it when we use them.

And I can tell you as somebody who uses them pretty regularly, they have been incredibly helpful. But I just wondered about that.

Gloria Mark: They can be very helpful. But remember the software becomes a proxy agent for you. And I would like to see people learn how to develop their own agency. It's like having training wheels on your bike. You never learn how to ride a bike. We're in this digital world, right? The ship has sailed. And I think it's very important for us to have control over our behaviors and be able to determine how we want to allocate our attention.

Having said this, I do think that there are opportunities for AI to be able to serve as coaches to help us gain control. Now, this is different from blocking sites. A coach can help a person understand what their attentional capacity is and can help coach them into understanding how long they've been on a break.

Okay, now it's time to come back so that a person can actually get to know their own personal rhythm. And we did a study at Microsoft Research. This was with a person named Eve Kama Kimani. And we found there to be some promise with a conversational agent that could help people could help coach people into improving their digital behaviors. Let's

Srini: Wrap this up with two final things. You talk about this idea of taking a sociotechnical approach to our digital behavior, and you say that the internet is a marketplace of social capital. Social capital is the benefit we get from being in a group. We exchange resources through relationships. These can be social, intangible, or tangible resources. And our desire to gain social capital keeps our attention drawn to social media. So talk to me about this because, somebody like Cal Newport obviously takes an extreme view on this and says, don't use it at all. So where do you disagree with him on some of this?

Gloria Mark: Yeah. The technology we use, we don't use technology in a vacuum, right? We bring our social natures, our cultural practices, and our environment all of which influence the digital world that we're in. And social capital is just a very basic aspect of human nature.

And it's the idea that we trade favors with people. If I do something for you, I expect you're going to do something for me. If you invite me to some social event, I'm going to reciprocate and invite you. And it translates into how we use electronic communications. So I'm going to answer the email of someone whom I expect is going to do a favor for me.

At some point, I wanna maintain a balance of social capital with that individual. If that individual happens to be your manager, of course, you're going to jump on that and make sure to monitor your inbox for messages from your supervisor or from a colleague because you want to maintain good social capital.

And so that's how it works. And this is it helps us to drive us to stay active on email, on social media. It's because of our social natures.

Gloria Mark: So, the question is, yeah?

Srini: This has been absolutely fascinating. I have one final question for you, which is how we finish all of our interviews at The Unmistakable Critic. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Srini: What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Gloria Mark: Oh, wow. What a great question. I'm not sure there's a single thing. I think it's a person who's very committed, to what they believe in. And I think that makes them know that when you're committed to something, you have passion, you have the drive, you have confidence, and I think others appreciate that. And, they may not necessarily agree with that person, but they certainly recognize the drive behind that individual. And, when a person has so much drive they also have grit and resilience. And that's what makes someone really successful in what they choose to do. It's not the fact that you have failed, but it's the fact that you failed and you've pulled yourself back up and you continued to go.

I had an art teacher, Mo Brooker, and probably, my favorite saying of anything that anyone ever told me was “Do you have the courage to fail?” Taking risks and failing are really important. But when you have grit and resilience and drive, you can pull yourself back up and continue. Amazing.

Srini: I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story, your wisdom, and insights with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you, your work, the book, and everything else that you're up to?

Gloria Mark: Sure. So you can go to my website, which is www.gloriamark.com. That's all one word, Gloria Mark. And you can sign up for my newsletter and you can find information about the book there. You can also order the book from your favorite retailer.

Srini: Amazing. And for everybody listening, we'll wrap the show with that. Have you ever heard our podcast guests say something that you wanted to remember, or maybe you read something in a book, and then the day goes by and you can't remember what it was or where you heard it, or where you read it?

And in the world we live in, there's so much competition for our attention. We're constantly inundated with blogs, social media posts, text messages, emails, Netflix, whatever it is. And if you ever tried to build a second brain, you probably noticed that you end up spending a lot of time maintaining and organizing folders, which ends up becoming a part-time job in and of itself.

But what if there was a better way? Our new Ultimate Guide to Building a Second Brain and Map will show you how to build a second brain that allows you to capture everything and find anything without creating any folders or spending any time organizing the information you need. If you want to be able to put the information that you consume to use and organize your digital life, be sure to check out our Ultimate Guide to Building a Second Brain and Map.

You can learn more@unmistakablecreat