Hitendra Wadhwa | Inner Mastery, Outer Impact How Your Five Core Energies Hold the Key to Success

All right, let's do this. Hiten. Welcome back to the Unmistakable Creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Hitendra Wadwha: Pleasure Sreeni, I have fond memories of the last time and I hope it wasn't too traumatizing for you or your listeners.

Srini: Well, I don't know if it was for me. It definitely wasn't for me. Maybe some of our listeners who won't tell you that. But no,

Hitendra Wadwha: Ha

Srini: I

Hitendra Wadwha: ha.

Srini: mean, I have referred back to that conversation multiple times. We included your segment from that episode, even in our Heroes Journey to Wisdom episode, because it was just so poetic. So I am absolutely thrilled to have you back here. You have a new book out called Intermastery Outer Impact, all of which we will get into. But before we get into the book, I wanted to start by asking you, what is... one of the most important things that you learn from one or both of your parents that have influenced and shaped who you've become and what you've ended up doing with your life.

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah, you know, it's sweet that you asked that question. Of course, as I was putting the finishing touches to my book, the question about sort of who to really memorialize the book and really what is that thing called? I'm blanking out. You know, the very, very top of the book.

Srini: the dedication or the four.

Hitendra Wadwha: Dedication,

Srini: Yeah.

Hitendra Wadwha: the dedication, right? So who should I do the dedication for? And it was just very obvious to me that this was going to be for my parents. And so I may not answer your question. by pointing to any one of the two. But in the confluence of both of them, what I feel most blessed to have experienced is the combination of two of these five energies that I refer to in my book, wisdom and love. And my father was, to me, in many ways, kind of like a pillar of wisdom, and my mother, a pillar of love. And yet, by the time I was writing the dedication, I realized that, you know, Hitenbra, in the journey you made through life, as you look back at it and all those gestures and moments and choices and behaviors and how people were showing up, your father and your mother, wasn't there, encoded in the wisdom, a lot of love from your father and wasn't there, encoded in the love, a lot of wisdom from your mother. It was a different language, but in that language was actually the expression of the opposite as well. And so, yeah, so that's what I would offer. I A, the blessing of simultaneously seeing the power of both wisdom and love in one's life and also recognizing that when you see it in one form, it doesn't mean that the other is not there. In the purest form of wisdom, there will be love and the purest form of love, there will be wisdom.

Srini: It's interesting that you kind of mentioned this idea of it not being there because this is something that I thought a lot about with my own parents and how love is expressed in Indian families. Like, you know, I remember when I learned about this whole love languages concept and I was like, okay, well, great. Minor words of affirmation and physical affection to things that Indians are basically illiterate at as far as I'm concerned, or at least my family members. It's kind of

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah.

Srini: funny because those things don't come across. And I remember Philip McKernan in his book. actually challenge the whole idea of love languages. And he said, Look, he said, you can't just say, okay, that because love isn't expressed in the way that you want it to be expressed that these people don't love you. So you know, just to give you a concrete example. I remember when I when I wrote my books, I thought, you know, this is like the moment and I remember the galley arrived, my dad didn't really seem fazed by it. I was like, man, I'm like, I've done all of this. And you know, like the thought that he wouldn't, you know, read my books to be excited, I was kind of hurt. And then I like you know, after taking some time to really reflect on it, and a year of like, you know, proper thought, I was like, Wait a minute, none of this would have been possible if you hadn't let me stay at their house to write the damn book. Yeah.

Hitendra Wadwha: I don't

Srini: And

Hitendra Wadwha: know.

Srini: that is an expression of love, if you know, if I've ever seen one.

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah. I mean, you know, and then to continue building your thought, I love that story that you just shared. You know, in my mother's case, what I found is that she would have this practice, which she would encourage us also to have, which is from time to time, just to be there, available, you know, in the presence of someone, you know, just to be there for them. And sometimes in those moments, I would see her, for example, as my father was aging, you know, be there for him because he was retired now. He didn't have a very busy professional life or an active, like everyday kind of social circle. And initially I would find those to be like, aren't they kind of relatively unproductive hours? Because all you're doing is sitting there waiting for something to strike one or the other party who then start a conversation or something. But the wisdom in that. The wisdom in that practice of love and the way she was doing it came to me over time, where I realized how much it actually truly fills the cup, fills the cup of the other party in terms of a feeling of connection, of belonging, of a sense of wholeness and all of that. So yeah, I think that there is a lot of value for each of us not to look at any of these terms, these ideas just monolithically or instinctually, deepen our exploration and unpacking of them. I value very much the idea of the five love languages. I think that the way I see it is that, if you wanna approach them from a place of 100% personal responsibility, then what it means is two things. One is that the way you show up in other people's lives is by tuning into what love language will be of most value to them based on their own disposition as well as their unique circumstances. like in your case, your unique circumstances where that you would appreciate, getting that material support from your parents, being able to kind of live with them while you're writing the book. And at the same time, while you are therefore, offering them the form of love that would be your greatest appeal and value and service to them, at the same time, when you are receiving love from people, to recognize that there is this general human disposition to offer love in certain forms rather than others based on just who they are. and to be appreciative and open about the fact that, okay, I would have loved a little bit of, perhaps more tenderness in the gestures or the words, but actually they were loving me in another form and that itself was a beautiful form.

Srini: Absolutely. So, one thing I wonder as a parent, because I know you had alluded to your daughter last time we spoke and I believe she was like starting college if I remember correctly. And what I wonder is how your own parents have influenced the way that you parent for better and for worse. Because I always talk to friends and you know there's this joke that we always say, it's like you always tell your parents like I'm never going to be like that with my own kids.

Hitendra Wadwha: I'm sorry, I'm

Srini: And

Hitendra Wadwha: sorry, I'm

Srini: rumor

Hitendra Wadwha: sorry.

Srini: has it that every parent basically finds themselves echoing the very things their own parents said to them that annoyed the hell out of them.

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great point. I mean, I've just been blessed to learn so many, so many things from my parents that I could rise to anywhere close to half that standard. I feel pretty good about my parenting. So one of them has just been this notion of unconditional love, which is part of also the cultural ethos, having grown up like you, Srinidh, and Indian family is just... such a core part of that culture, the notion of very hands-on, very supportive, very invested. The child becomes the central pillar in your life kind of thing. And so that really shaped me and my sisters in big ways and has been at least a striving from my wife and my side with our daughter. Another thing I found that was very, very valuable to me from them was spirituality early in my life. invitation to develop some kind of direct relationship, not a programmatic or ritualistic relationship, but a direct personal relationship with the divine and seek to create some form of exploration, some connection, whether it's to chanting or prayer or meditation or reading scripture and other such wisdom, uh, having, you know, your own kind of daily conversations with the divine, just, you know, practices through which you feel much more connected to something that is eternal and timeless. And, you know, um, Ineffable, not easily expressed and seen in material form, but is the underlying sort of, yeah, blueprint of reality behind everything. That to me was very powerful, and it's something that we have sought to bring for our daughter as well. And the third thing I would say is universality. Universality in terms of breaking out of any kind of boxes in terms of your identity, whether it's about gender, whether it's about race, whether it's about nationality or... period of time in history that we're living through or whatever it might be. But instead to see and recognize that there is beauty in humanity in all. In fact, there is a throbbing and kind of pure flow of life that happens even beyond humanity across nature and the universe. And how do you tap into that? How do you use that to, in some almost paradoxical way, become the best unique version of your own self? which I know is so much, you're calling, the unmistakable creative, finding your own kind of like true path. So how do you get to your own true path, but by opening your heart up to a certain kind of, universality of identity.

Srini: Yeah. Well, you know, I think that the other reason that this question interests me so much is because you're an immigrant, you're an educator, much like my dad is. And you know, you have like inherited certain cultural narratives. Like, I realize now why my parents, you know, gave us the advice to pursue stable and secure career paths is just based on the context that they grew up in. So I wonder

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah.

Srini: what advice have you given your daughter about making her way in the world? especially given that you have this sort of tension between, you know, the cultural narrative of having grown up in India, which basically instills a sort of linear mindset about, you know, life trajectories and career trajectories, and then your daughter's, you know, being like raised in an American culture, which basically instills a whole different set of values.

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah, yeah. You know, one way in which for me there was already a bridge being built between these two worlds is because I was a bit of a rebel. So on the one hand, I was very invested in my academic and professional pursuit of success, which would warm any Indian parents as hard to see in the kids. My parents didn't have any problem with me on that front. But at the same time, I was very much questioning. of these very established channels, grow up and take these courses and become an engineer or take these courses and become a Indian civil servant or become a doctor. And those pursuits and outcomes didn't really interest me. I didn't really know what I wanted to be when I grew up, but I knew I didn't wanna be this or I didn't wanna be that. And so from a fairly early age, 16 or so, I started to... challenge and question and rebel against the institutional expectations. And I took choices that brought me off the beaten path. No problem. Oh, sorry to hear that. Hmm. No problem, no problem. Yeah.

Srini: At the end there, he's still there.

Hitendra Wadwha: Yes, sir.

Srini: Sorry about that. Can you pick, just pick it up where we're at? I'll have our editor edit.

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, OK. So let me look.

Srini: So I think we're talking about your daughter and kind of how you've guided her as

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah,

Srini: it relates

Hitendra Wadwha: yeah,

Srini: to

Hitendra Wadwha: yeah.

Srini: what you learned from your parents. Just pick it up from there and then we'll do an edit to clean it up.

Hitendra Wadwha: OK, so I'll just start that answer

Srini: Yeah.

Hitendra Wadwha: from the beginning.

Srini: Yep. Yeah.

Hitendra Wadwha: So whatever learned from my pair, no,

Srini: So

Hitendra Wadwha: whatever

Srini: I

Hitendra Wadwha: learned from my pair.

Srini: guess, like how your own parents have influenced you as a parent.

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah. So I spoke about universality, the...

Srini: Yeah, so start there with the universality thing.

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah. Just give me one second. Yeah.

Srini: Yeah, sorry. I know this is like.

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm just getting collected on thing. Yeah, OK, great. So yeah. And then there's the universality, this notion that rather than put yourself in a box, to be able to see yourself in some ways as pure spirit in whichever gender or race or nationality or language or geography or walk of life that you have been put in. But that's a very, you know, evolvable box, you know, that box by itself doesn't in any way define or limit you, but you can be what it is the divine spark within is guiding you to be. And to that end, how do you sort of embrace and connect with, you know, all aspects of life and all kinds of communities and people in the world so that, A, you are able to see humanity and your shared connection with not just every human being, but really even life at stake. large and be in doing that you feel very attuned and anchored in your own unique divine spark to be free to become something which if you put yourself in a box it would have limited you to just being what you have assumed people need to be in that box but now that you've freed yourself from the box become in some ways universal you've also become in some ways very deeply individual you know to your own spark.

Srini: Yeah. Well, so, you know, it's interesting because this is like the advice that I think I'm getting that your daughter gets from Hathendra, the spiritual teacher and author. How does that align with, you know, Hathendra, the educator and professor at an elite university? Tell me like from

Hitendra Wadwha: Well,

Srini: that perspective.

Hitendra Wadwha: yeah, you know, a few years ago, as you were saying, my daughter was just about, you know, get to college when we did our last conversation together on, you know, on the unmistakable creative. So when she was applying to college, you know, just like many college applicants, you know, she was, she was feeling, you know, a certain drive and aspiration and all that. And I, in my conversation with her, basically offered her the following advice, which is, look. my daughter, if there's anything I can offer from my lens, having gone around the sun a few more circles than you, it's that I've spent time on a few Ivy League campuses. I've been blessed to Yale and MIT and then Columbia. And then I've met and known people from many diverse campuses in terms of their college and graduate school pursuits. And I can tell you this. It is possible. Yes, absolutely. in some of these Ivy League slash MIT kind of places, you get a certain kind of something, whether it's professional drive, high performance orientation, a network, and intellectual rigor, and all of that. I'm sure get that. But if one's goal in life is to be a nice person and to be a happy person, I have certainly not found that people from any you know, university as such, are any nicer and happier than people from any other university. And so from that vantage point, what I want you to know is that as far as your mom is concerned and I'm concerned, you know, to us, you know, we are cheering you on to live a beautiful and good and whole life. And any university you end up going to will, you know, ultimately make us really happy as long as you go there and tap it for, you know, the full potential that he offers you. Because, you know, while some might be better ranked than others, there's nothing that I've found that suggests that it ends up producing better human beings than others.

Srini: Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, just one more brief part about this on education. We'll get into the book. You know, like I had the good fortune to come and speak to your class, which I love because I was like, great. I get to go to speak to a business school class at a business school that

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah.

Srini: rejected me. This is like the ultimate vindication.

Hitendra Wadwha: I fond memories

Srini: But

Hitendra Wadwha: of that.

Srini: yeah, but as I asked every educator, we're clearly in a situation where. it's kind of a problem. Like it's clearly in need of reinvention. It clearly needs to be updated. And given your background, both as a spiritual teacher and as an educator, if you were tasked with redesigning this entire thing from the ground up and they said, okay, you are now in charge of redesigning everything at Columbia, how would you change things?

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah, it's a great, great question. We have created institutions that really advanced the cultivation of the intellect, for which I applaud them and I find them very nourishing and it draws me into the world. At the same time, there are other of the human faculties. If you take the physical part of who you are, the awareness of bodily intelligence, of how you wanna create the conditions for a physically... you know, long and happy life, healthy life, whether it's nutrition, whether it's sleep, whether it's exercise and all of that stuff, then your heart, you know, your capacity to be in a state of compassionate connection with the people that you are immediately in relationships with and then also the wide world beyond, even to the extent of the planet itself. How do you open your heart up to having those kinds of connections and conversations? Then it's your spirit. the nurturing and the activation and the expression of this most powerful, powerful center of your being, your spirit. These are things that we, unfortunately and painfully so, have not really pursued much in the way college and graduate school has been organized. The assumption is that if you're coming in here for a law degree or a medicine degree or a business degree, well, then we ought to teach you the technical and functional aspects of law and medicine and business. But how do you get along with people? How do you inspire yourself and others during tough times? How do you build bridges and resolve conflict? How do you cultivate trust? How do you create a real purpose and a vision? How do you connect with your inner voice and conscience? How do you rise above the fray and not get yourself swept up by the passions of the masses that might be in fashion on a given day? How do you make sure that you don't allow yourself to be in some ways corrupted by certain pulls and impulses that take you away from the very authentic, true nature of somebody who wants to go on a very virtuous and beautiful human and heroic journey. These are things that painfully so we don't have a lot of room and space for in the rush of reading tens and hundreds of books, and tens and hundreds of papers, and finishing assignments, and taking exams. And then you get that A-plus grade, and you're a brilliant student. And then you go out, and then you you know, chill out with your friends and you party and, you know, engage in some club activity. I respect all of that, respect all of that. But there's so much doing there. There's not much, you know, reflecting there. There's not much deep connecting there. There's not much being in a deep state of being there. And so that's what I would do if I were to create, you know, education from, you know, ground zero up, I would, I would want to architect it around honoring all of these human faculties that make us whole and that make us more complete. I would want to create a structure and a curriculum that was not just in the classroom, but in nature that engaged people on certain kinds of collective quests that opened them up to service to the local community, that gave them a place for deep reflection and habit formation and a cultivation of character and ultimately a practice of a certain more informed, compassionate form of leadership.

Srini: Yeah. It's like if I were to summarize everything you said, it sounds like we should build our education system around this idea of inner mastery and outer impact.

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah, I'm grateful that you draw that link. You know, as much as I do, that has been the very, very sort of center of my life over the last 15 years, building out a journey and a curriculum and a certain structured approach towards pursuit of outer success. You know, that's the outer impact part, but from a place of, you know, an inner quest, you know, an inner pursuit of success, which is the inner mastery part. And yes, you're right, I mean, the whole reason I started is because I saw a gap in our curriculum, initially at the business school, where I teach at Columbia, as you've said. But then increasingly over time, I've realized that this kind of is the missing core to education more broadly.

Srini: So what is it that is making this kind of change so difficult? Because I can tell you, I could literally write, in fact, I'm working on it, a guide on how to reinvent the education system or redesign it based on all the conversations I've had. Yet despite all these conversations with all these professors, I don't actually see any of these changes occurring anywhere. So what is the obstacle to this kind of change?

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah, I mean, look, we are, depending on your perspective, either at a place where... you know, institutions like the Ivy Leagues, you know, feel very successful about their model and how they're showing up and what they're doing. So, you know, institutions tend to typically be more conservative than any individual is. And so, understandably so, they do not want to tinker with a model that has worked for them for, you know, 100 plus years. And so that's one, that's one thing, right, which limits the capacity for transformative change. In addition, it is a community that, since it thrives on the intellect, may sometimes not very actively be invested in some of these other dimensions to advance the more, if you wanna call it, whole person spiritual journey for people. And so if they're not that invested in it, then they're probably not seeing the merit in it, right? They're not seeing the logic for it. And they're seeing that they're able to churn out these graduates who go to ultimately leadership positions and the pursuit of high performance in law and medicine and business and beyond. And they're doing well at some level in their professional journey.

So why do they need to tinker with that system? That question comes up with them. And of course, you and I might say, because while these people seemingly are doing well... they're actually not that happy. And they're actually not that super healthy. And they're gonna have a little bit of a struggle, as they grow older, with regard to all the chronic diseases and the frayed relationships, and also the, in a sense, frayed fabric of society. What is happening to the environment, what's happening in social divisions, the rising levels of income inequality, the lack of meaningful people at work, et cetera, et cetera, right? So... These are soft measures. These are less visible measures. The financial success of an individual, where that individual is in the hierarchy of the discipline, those are more visceral and physical and immediately visible measures. And so until we open ourselves up to being able to tune in to some of these less visible, but in some ways even more important real energies in the world. and recognize the link between choices we make today and outcomes that happen over time because of these, it's gonna be a swimming upstream for you to pursue that kind of reform. That said, I think there are some very positive trends that are going on.

You know those as much as I. You're tapping into them in your own work. This increasing hunger for happiness, for meaning, for purpose, for... opening ourselves up to a whole person existence, to be able to connect more with our authentic voice and just get so much more from everything that we pursue in life. The unshackling from stereotypical norms and imposed norms and certain power structures and all in the world, so that people and communities and minorities and others can kind of like be themselves. I think there is a lot of positive ramifications of that to the extent that people are using that to open themselves up to deeper realizations than what Conventional education can give them wherever they're tapping it from, whether it's meditation, mindfulness, and yoga, and Buddhism, and Zen, or positive psychology. And in doing so, make them better versions of themselves. So I think that knowledge is exploding. Those practices are coming into practical reality, even for the youth. There are some professors who therefore experimented with classes on happiness. My dear friend Arthur Brooks at Harvard is an example of that. There is a professor at Yale who's teaching a very, very popular course in happiness. I'm blessed to have my personal leaderships and success course at Columbia. And so, you know, so there are these pockets where certain new practices are taking root, which I think in some ways hold promise and might be forerunners of some, you know, future more broadly embraced form of, you know, education.

Srini: Well, I think that makes a perfect segue into the book. So you start out early on the book by saying that consciously or unconsciously, we're all seeking both inner and outer success. When we experience an alignment between our outer ambitions and our inner self, we feel energized, committed, at peace, fulfilled, integrated, understood, and validated for who we are. Our inner and outer worlds are in harmony, but finding that harmony takes work. So talking about that actual work as it relates to the concept of inner mastery.

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah, yeah. See, first, let's just make sure that any or all of us can make it tangible to yourself that there is this tension. You want to please somebody else, including just like the people in your family, your own loved ones and others, your friends, and all that. But also, you kind of want to do things your way. You want to be able to hold sway over the world, and change it, and fix it to conform exactly to your vision. But imagine if you're like, everybody starts to do that in the world, what a crazy society we would have. How would we have a culture where people sacrifice for others, where people accommodate others, where people come together and give and take to build like collective outcomes. And so it's in the very nature of things. It's in the very nature of things on this planet that we have to ultimately find a way to cohabit the space and co-create it.

And so to that end, the realization comes to us at times that Is it going to have to be like a choice between either I kind of like seek to just become whoever I want to or I conform more to the, you know, to the demands and whims of the world? Is there doesn't have to be a choice like that? Or is there a third path? And what I'm doing in the book is, as you just thoughtfully quoted, is offering like this third path where you can bring the inner and outer together. You can bring your own individual and then also a sense of community together into one whole thing. And that whole thing happens when you start to operate from your core. You know, your core is the space from where your best self arises. You know, when, when you're at your core and I'm at my core, we are beyond ego. We are beyond attachments. We have beyond insecurities. We are beyond even habits and impulses and personality to be deeply committed to some noble cause deeply connected with the people we are with and those we are serving deeply curious and open to new learnings and deeply calm and receptive to truth in whichever form it comes and centered in some joyful spirit that lies at the very center of our being.

And so what happens is that when you work on not just drifting in and out of your core and sometimes glimpsing it and on other days you're kind of way out of it, rather than living life that way, which is kind of how most of us work, but if you can get to a place where there are certain disciplines and structures you take on. you get closer and closer and closer to your core. Discover it, relish it, and then ultimately express it in all you do. Then as it comes shining through, you find that, yeah, just things conspire to work more in your favor than otherwise. People like you more, they're more receptive and open to your guidance. They resolve conflicts with you that much more easily. they open themselves up to even being led by you. And this doesn't happen because your needs and hungers and positions on issues stays very rigid and fixed. And then somehow magically you gain these heroic qualities which draws everybody else towards you. That's what we might perhaps naively think or hope for, we would get when we really pursue this path of the court. Instead what happens is that as you start, cultivating and connecting more with that space within, that inner voice, that purity of your heart, that place of deep commitment and clarity.

What happens is that there is a certain harmonization that is happening between your inner and outer in a way that A will in some cases, absolutely create just more of a pull, more of an openness from people towards you. And so that's how things get harmonized because the outer world shifts and changes. in a way that is aligned with your own aspirations. But B, it can also happen that you shift and change and that you start to open yourself up to being so much more empathetically connected, more accommodating, more interested and attuned to other people's agendas, listening and learning from the outside in, from other people's critiques, rather than just from your own very place of stubbornness about your ideas. And so you start to abandon, open yourself up to new points of view. rather than just getting very fixated. And then a third thing that happens from time to time is that somehow, even while there may be a conflict between the inner and the outer, in terms of what the world is looking for versus what you're looking for, you get some wisdom for how to be in harmony from inside and accept the world for what it is or pursue change in some aspect of the world where you wanna have a meaningful impact. And because in that case, it becomes part of your purpose and you want to be able to manifest that change. Therefore, seeing that aspect of the world as muddy or in harmonious with you, doesn't by itself jar you, it motivates you, it directs you, it gives you purpose. And so again, that allows you to reclaim harmony.

Srini: Yeah. Well, so you bring up the mentioned these five core energies, which are purpose, wisdom, growth, love and self realization. And what I want to talk about is how each one of those relates to the two things you talk about, because in each one of these, you talk about living with them or living with them, loving with them and leading with them. But there's one other quote that really caught my attention and probably was the one that stood out to me the most out of the entire book, which I've always, I found this to be kind of a funny paradox. Here's a sobering realization. There's no teacher, no teaching, no path that can guarantee outer success. And yet the irony of that is people are reading this book in hopes of becoming potentially more successful. And they're listening to podcasts like this one.

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah, well, because there is a science to it, even though there's no guarantee for it, right? There's a science to it with no guarantee for it. And to me, one of my role models is someone in your own neck of the woods in LA. John Wooden, right? You know John Srini,

Srini: Mm-hmm.

Hitendra Wadwha: right?

Srini: Yep, well,

Hitendra Wadwha: And

Srini: not personally, but yeah, I know who he is.

Hitendra Wadwha: yeah, yeah. So he was the coach of the UCLA basketball team, as you know. UCLA team that, listen guys, I don't care if you win or lose. So here's a coach, all right? He's being charged with getting to create a winning team. And he says, I don't care if you win or lose. He says, what I do care about is if at the end of every game when you walk out, will you be able to tell yourself, yes, I played my best game? And he didn't even say, will you be able to convince me that you played your best game? He said, will you be able to tell yourself? Because look, I mean, if you're a little injured today and all that, how can I tell how much of a great game you can play or not? Your body will tell you, your own spirit will tell you, and I can't. But if I can get you motivated to playing your best game, and then give you the technical and functional skills, of course, as a coach, then where does that take you?

Without obsessing over victory, not caring about whether you win or lose. Well, it turns out in the case of the UCLA team, they ended up being the winningest basketball team in college history. It's incredible. They've won about 12 or 13 annual titles, championships. Whereas the next most successful coach, after John Wooden, his team has won about six titles, or five titles. So a vast gap between the second and third and fourth and fifth most successful coaches versus the most successful. And the most successful is basically saying, I don't care about whether we succeed or fail in any given game. So. That's the paradox, just like you pointed out in that quote from my book, which is something worth exploring and worth embracing. And I would offer that when people are coming here to listen to your podcast and then pursue anything that I and others can offer, that's the invitation that we have, which is like learn in a sense, the more advanced game of the pursuit of success by studying the outliers, the John Woodens, the Mahatma Gandhis, the Mother Teresa's, Abraham Lincoln's, the Steve Jobs, learn from these people who are not just average successful, but like super outliers. Because what you find in these people to me is like a sense of deep rootedness in some of these ideas that may challenge our system of Western logic from the 17, 18, 1900s when science was making great strides. But today is getting almost like scientific proof that a more mystic a more sort of integrative, a more timeless and almost spiritual approach to pursuing not just your retreats and your meditations, but actually your life. It can make not just spiritual, but a material difference.

Srini: So I want to talk about the outliers a bit, because this is something you hear over and over. Paul Graham wrote about this in his essay on wealth, saying that let's not use outliers as role models. And I think that the problem that I find with outliers is that we often mix up causation with correlation. You look at outlier behavior. It's like Steve Jobs is an asshole. That's why he's successful. So people think, OK, I'm just going to behave like a horrible person. Or Elon Musk barely sleeps. So if I barely sleep, I'm going to become successful.

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah.

Srini: And I think that's a great point. My biggest issue with sort of outliers as role models for success is that we overlook context You know and we don't consider a lot of their inequalities I think that there's a difference between modeling and mimicking and too often I think people tend to mimic as you know Expecting the same kinds of results So I want to hear your take on this because I actually wrote an article titled why outliers are lousy role models for most of us

Srini: Yeah, so let's talk about this in the context of wisdom and how it relates to intermastering outer impact. And I think we need to define wisdom because as I'm going through this conversation, I'm thinking, how do you actually define wisdom? What is it?

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah, it's a great question. So one thing I talk about in my book is how intelligence is not the same as wisdom and how in some of the latest research what psychologists have shown is that you can be super intelligent, but you might end up making really poor decisions. And the reason is that when you are very intelligent, typically means you are very respected by people for that blazing genius that you have, you are able to think on your feet and marshal all the facts and very, you know, persuasively convince other people that you are right and they're wrong. And they're not able to react, you know, with as much intellectual horsepower as you have. You're also less interested in wanting to ask other people their opinion and to seek help from other people when you struggle at something because after all, you're qualified. You have the PhD.

You're like consider an expert. You know, you're super smart. So you should have all the answers. Isn't that what like people are? paying you for, you know. And so what happens is that as a result of all of that, if the world stays in a very fixed kind of situation, sure, if you've got mastery over all the cases and nuances in that situation, through all the degrees and experience you have, you probably repeatedly get a lot of success. But as conditions change in the world, it turns out that it's not clear whether the way that you have built a model in your mind, you know, is going head about what should happen and what conditions to pursue success. If that model works anymore, and what parts of it work and what parts of it don't.

And so as the world starts shifting and changing, your intelligence can be your own downfall. Because by asking less questions of others, reaching out less to other people for their help, and trying to blaze through all the experience from the past and the genius that you have to win every argument, you're not opening yourself up. To new learning, to new. to new changes that are going on in the environment, in the world, and new ideas, maybe fresh ideas, maybe ideas from people with much less experience than you, but who actually grown up as natives in this new economy, on this new digital environment, or whatever it is that is going on around you. And so, intelligence is a false god. However, wisdom is where you are able to marry your intelligence, because after all, there is some, you know, there's definitely some really great value. and having a good intellect and being able to analyze and break things down and logically look at things and collect the right data and all of that. There is value in that, but wisdom is about combining that intelligence with what I call a great intention. And intention means you have to be able to walk into every decision-making situation, every interaction with the intention of looking for only one thing. And what is that? And that is truth. Looking for the truth in all situations.

And truth can be... complicated. Truth can evolve so that what you knew before may not be what's true today. Truth can be multifaceted where you may have certain things that you really strongly want to hold onto, but there could be other things that other people may bring to the table where when you look at their facets and your facets and you honor the truth in both, you build truth out like a diamond. And so wisdom is a deep commitment to uncovering the truth in all matters. And for that, to create that intention in addition to the intelligence, One needs socio-emotional intelligence, so to say. In other words, being aware of your emotional state, that of other people, making sure you stay grounded, open, interested, humble, create a state of inquiry and discovery, integration between one and a certain alternative idea. And so through those kind of, much more nuanced approaches to your inner life, with regards to emotions and thoughts and beliefs, you get to a point where you can create the right intentionality. And then that intentionality combined with that conventional appreciation we have for intelligence, that can take you far on the path to wisdom.

Srini: Well, let's finish this by talking about living, leading with growth and then living and leading with love in the section on living and leading with growth. You say that across all spheres of human endeavor, athletics, performing arts, science, business and beyond. We admire people who engage in the dogged pursuit of excellence and scale new heights in their fields. When they arrive at the summit to claim victory, we look back at their roots and are in awe about how much they've grown and how much they've achieved. And yet the single minded devotion to the mastery of their discipline. has led many legends to very dark places, depression, loneliness, a struggle to be happy. We all heard some version of that over and over. Like you tell people, it's like, oh, money won't make you happy. And that's like, you're like, well, that's convenient for a billionaire to tell you. That

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah.

Srini: is kind of thought that goes, I think, through all of our minds. OK, you know, I had Jim McKelvey, who was a co-founder of Square here. And like. That was kind of my thought at the moment. I was like, well, yeah, that's easy for you to say Like when was the last time you worried about money?

Hitendra Wadwha: Hahaha. Yeah, I mean, first of all, it makes complete and perfect sense that as a key priority in life, we make sure that we have enough and provide enough for ourselves and for our families, those who are dependent on us, those with whom we have some responsibility financially, and also really take care of ours and other people's health. Right? And so, no-brainer. The challenge comes where you get to keep pursuing these outcomes. Let's say if you're very fond of physical sport and a pursuit of excellence, you wanna make your body just that much more perfect, that much stronger, that much faster, and you wanna be in the Olympics and you wanna win that medal and all of that. Or then you do the same with money. Where and when will you stop? In the case of money, you can just keep going on and on and on and on until you get to a point where you just are physically ragged and just unable to engage anymore with your business. And then you realize when you look back at life, my God, I've got so much money in my bank account, but what I don't have is time. I don't have any more of those lost opportunities and experiences. I wish I'd been like that. I wish I'd nurtured and strengthened and continue to maintain that relationship. I wish as a Nobel Prize winning physicist, very beloved as a professor as well, Chandrasekhar at University of Chicago, he said, I wish I'd made time. This is close to the end of his life. He's talking about his regrets. He said, I wish I'd made enough time to study Shakespeare. And then on the other hand, if you're an Olympian oriented, sort of like, okay, it's the physicality, it's the sport, it's the pursuit of this kind of athletic excellence. Well, then what happens when you turn 30 and you have to retire from the sport? and all your identity, all your identity, is around the adulation from the masses and the excellence in the track and fields and all of that you've taken on.

So, and one sees that in music, with music stars and in Hollywood as well and all that, right? And so to me, like the offering and the lesson in that, Srini is, don't be only focused on what you're acquiring, attaining and performing on the outside, but focus... on who you are becoming, who you're becoming as a human being. And when you do that, then you don't have to do that at the cost of some of those outer things and we've spoken about that a little bit earlier in this podcast. But the essence of growth is to be able to, again, harmonize the inside out and the outside in. The inside out is where you feel really invested in your own self realization, your own engagement with and mastery of like the forces inside you. and how they are revealed and manifested in the world. And then the outside in is that, yes, you take life's challenges, life's ambitions that you have, and use them to mold you and shape you. But not merely in terms of just who you are superficially, in terms of your physical self or your technical functional self, but also who you become from within. Your relationship with humanity, your relationship with life, your largeness of character, et cetera. So inside out and outside in. as a more holistic sort of discipline through which you grow in a balanced way.

Srini: Well, let's wrap this up by talking about love as it relates to inner mastery and outer impact. And give me an idea of what role love plays in all of this.

Hitendra Wadwha: What role does love not play? You know,

Srini: Yeah.

Hitendra Wadwha: that's more and more where I'm coming out. I mean, just a moment ago, you and I were sharing this tender, sweet moment, you know, between you and your nephew. And it was such a joy to both experience him and to, you know, hear through your words, right? The beautiful connective tissue we have in humanity as Rumi, you know, this really, really lovely Sufi poet. You know, he once said, he said, love is the bridge. between you and everything. He's not saying between you and your family, not you and your nation, between you, not even you and your humanity, you and everything. So to me, love is a very untapped or undertapped universal power that any or all of us can access, which when we do, it ends up imbuing so much more meaning to our suffering, to our hard work, to our sacrifice. it ends up attuning ourselves to a much more collective rather than individual reality, a shared reality.

It makes us be in a position to be good citizens, be good family members, be good employees in an organization, good as in collaborative, open, committed and all of that. It helps us, love helps us be all of that, not because it's the right thing to do. not because others are asking me to do it, not because it's gonna end up getting people to love me more or make me rise through the ranks and get better salary. It allows you and makes you a good citizen, a good employee, a good family member because of that love, because you love your company and its cause, you love the people you work with, you love the product you're launching, you love the community you're part of and you wanna serve them, you love. this person in your family and you know, you joyfully sacrifice for them because you love them. And so to me, without love, you know, the whole fabric of society would completely break down. The fabric of family would completely break down. Fabric of organizations would break down. And those of us who have been painfully so, painfully so, in a broken family, in a dysfunctional organization, in a fractured nation, you know, we know what happens. when love is compromised.

Srini: Well, I think that makes such a beautiful place to finish our conversation. And of course, I have one final question for you, and I'm always interested to see how people answer this when they come back. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah, I mean, look, I want to end with first of all, a big thank you to you for continuing to light this fire with unmistakable creative. It's a really beautiful brand and message and movement. And thank your audience for being patient listeners all the way through. And then to me, one signature piece around this that I can offer to you all is the very once asked Gandhi, he was seeing some filth footage of Gandhi, as to Mr. Gandhi, you know, what is this gesture that you put, which is the folding of your hands? It's a traditional Indian way of greeting called the namaste. And Gandhi replied in his letter to explain to Einstein what it is. And this is what he said. And these can be my final words then for us. He said, Namaste, I honor the space within you where your best self arises. That space where there is only peace and love. wisdom and joy and light. I honor the space within you where when you're in that space and I am in that space then there is only one of us.

Srini: Beautiful. Well, I can't thank you enough for returning to the show and taking the time to share your wisdom, your insights, and your story with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you, your work, the new book, and everything else?

Hitendra Wadwha: Yeah, I'd be delighted to have some of us visit. My personal website is hetendra.com, H-I-T-E-N-D-R-A.com. The book is, Inner Mastery, Outer Impact. You will find an invitation to sign up for my newsletter if you come to my hetendra.com website. And if you're interested in the organizational form of the work I do, we do leadership development and culture work to help create inspired organizations. And that is the organization I founded called Mentora. dot institute, mentora, that's M-E-N-T-O-R-A dot institute. And then we are working towards creating youth changemakers for which I invite you to my foundation. It's called mentora dot foundation.

Srini: And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.