Jeeyoon Kim | How to Compose the Life of Your Dreams

Srini Rao

 Ji-Yoon, welcome to the Unmistakable Creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Jeeyon Kim

Thank you for having me here.

Srini Rao

It is my pleasure to have you here. So I found out about your work by way of your publicist who told me about your book, Whenever You're Ready, which is about composing the life that you want, which the whole idea of using composition as a metaphor for life really struck me. And as a former musician, I knew that I wanted to talk to you because I figured there was so much we could learn from you. But before we get into the book, I wanted to start by asking you, what did your parents do for work? And then how did that...

end up influencing the choices that you ended up making throughout your life and your career.

Jeeyon Kim

Oh, interesting. I always joked to my friends that I have two dads, because my both parents work, which I grew up in Korea. At that time, it was more where women would work in the working field. A lot of housewives and my friends always had their moms to cook and take care of for bento boxes and all. My mom especially was businesswoman.

and a very good advisor. I never really had a fudgy kind of mom, but both, my dad was more of like more soft side, but both my parents were more of a mentor all my life. And I think that really helped me to make choices in my life. And I, a lot of musicians have a tiger moms that really like take you to the lessons.

Srini Rao

Hmm.

Jeeyon Kim

five years old, I went to a piano institute. My both parents were working. I actually saw my parents only on weekends basically because they came home really late. But it was my decision to go to the piano institute every single day. And when I think about that, it's really interesting. Five years old, walking to a piano institute as if it's like business of the day. And I think that kind of freedom that my parents gave me was incredible.

I don't know anyone can give that kind of freedom and trust to their children from early on but then every choice I made was comes with my responsibility and I really appreciate that they cultivate that freedom from that early age because When I went to the college which at that point I was playing piano already 15 years a lot of people

My parents want them to do one and that. A lot of practice is daily grinding. And if someone is telling you to practice, you know, no way you can actually continue doing that kind of pushing with another person because it's already difficult, even if within you. So practice was always my responsibility and I choose to do that because I wanted to get better. And my parents were never in my scene. In some ways I wish like,

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Jeeyon Kim

I wish my parents were more involved.

They weren't and I appreciate later on I think one time my dad asked me Do you really want to be a musician? You know if you were a doctor or pharmacist and more stable job You would have you know more clear path in your life and that was in middle school I think and at that point when he asked me that I Thought you know what more than clear and ever I will not be a doctor I will be doctor in music

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Jeeyon Kim

a doctor and I think I really I was clear and loud about my passion in music and I could be able to articulate what I want in my life and they were like good if that's your choice we fully support it and when I since I came to America which was like almost 20 years ago all my performance is taking place in America I don't really perform I do visit Korea once a year just to

but I don't really perform in Korea. So my performance is mostly in North America. And about three years ago, that was first time my mom actually were at my concert, professional concert. And you know, a lot of people were like, would think my mom would travel with me, come to all my concerts, but it took almost 17 years for mom to come to my concert. And it was actually, I was very emotional and acknowledge mom being in a stage.

and when mom heard me playing last time, was in high school probably, I was a little girl. Now I'm here, I am on stage giving this concert, but there's mom that gave me all the love, all that freedom, all that trust, so that I can go out in the world to do what I need to do, but knowing that they're there. And I thank mom and play encore, dedicating to mom, and it was just kind of flashback

years old all the way to like here I am now and what they gave to me was tremendous love and trust and that freedom I really appreciate. So I think all my years of even college I went to backpacking for two months in Europe. I think a lot of mom would say, you know, that's too dangerous. Just a woman by yourself going to backpacking for two months in the...

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Hehehehe

Jeeyon Kim

going country. And you know, I had a lot of dangerous moments I have to meet. But I was like, you know, I'm here, I'm going to make it through. And a lot of friends of mine would say, June, you're really strong. And I always said, No, I'm not. I'm not that strong. I just figure it out as I go. And I don't really like

kind of like fall down and stay there. I tried to find a solution in every situation and at some point I thought maybe that's a sign of strength. I don't know but even for those years of college I find that I was trying to navigate my life which I find that it's all of our lives that we are trying to navigate. It's not like one is so sure about it. I think even your 40s or 50s, 60s

to navigate and I think that strength coming from within is really needed.

Srini Rao

Wow. So I think that, you know, what's interesting to me, I was waiting for the doctor, you know, pharmacist, you know, engineer conversation, I figured, because.

You know, as I understand it, just from having had Asian American friends, you know, there's probably a lot of similarities between Indian culture and Korean culture. You know, my dad talked me out of a career in music, but as I told you, a piano is far more versatile than a tuba is. So one thing I wonder is, in the Korean culture in general, you seem to have had sort of an anomaly of parents. But what is the standard narrative in Korean culture when it comes to careers in the arts? Because...

Jeeyon Kim

Thanks for watching!

Jeeyon Kim

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

know as well as anybody that this is a life in which nothing is guaranteed and anything is possible and it's definitely not easy. There's no clear trajectory in what you're doing to your point. Like, you know, it's like, oh, if you're going to become a doctor, it's like, okay, go major in some sort of science when you're in college, then apply to med school and then you know, you're kind of like the steps are laid out for you. Whereas when you're a professional musician, they're not, you know, like

Jeeyon Kim

Mm-hmm.

Jeeyon Kim

Hey.

Srini Rao

the number of people who find jobs as we were joking, you know, about tuba players, like you're waiting for somebody to die to find a job. And like, so my, I always joke was like, so tuba players basically probably don't look at job boards. They look at obituaries every.

Jeeyon Kim

Mm-hmm.

Jeeyon Kim

Right. It's interesting. But my concept of

Korea actually stopped 20 years ago because that's where I left Korea. So I probably whatever I say is, you know, in 20 years ago that my notion of Korea and probably it changed a lot more worse or better, I don't know. But I always thought that in Korea, improve their economy much faster than people's notion of being able to grasp the whole fast growth.

Jeeyon Kim

It's very much of an emphasis of financial stability and more clear path. So that's why a lot of, I don't know, you ever seen Korean dramas and there's always those rich guys saving women. There's very traditional mindset.

a lot of like worshiping the money aspect of it and the jobs that would give you that stability. So where the art coming in, it's interesting because Korean culture that we love music. I think we are the one of the most musical culture people in every other block karaoke. That's why because people love to sing. I mean when I was young, I mean I played piano but my

Srini Rao

Ha ha ha!

Jeeyon Kim

like why I have to sing? I could play piano but they're like sing something Deun sing and my parents will sing and my aunt will sing and every block will sing and they if there's some songs coming and everybody will you know sing and I think we're very much of that singing and appreciate those art and music in general those art cultures ingrained in us but at the same time that those like they wanted to be stable in

and keep up with the growth, fast growing of the culture. I think there's like, especially classical music, I think.

It's a difficult place to be positioned because it's not really money making, it's not clear. People are a little bit foreign about classical music, but there's other music. That's why I think K-pop is so flourishing right now. It's part of the culture, it has been always. It's just other countries that kind of caught up and catch on where we have been. But classical music is still...

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Jeeyon Kim

Grandma who passed away unfortunately, but when I played classical music she's like, oh can you play something that I can sing along? You know? But she appreciated it, but it was very foreign. So when I give a concert in Korea, it's you know, high schoolers and college, people are like this is some kind of social outing, but I don't really get it. You know? So I really felt disconnected to the culture.

Srini Rao

Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Jeeyon Kim

for the first time, oh my gosh, this is their root of this, their shubers, their ancestor. And so I felt, oh wow, that's a different kind of feeling of connection to the classical music. And even now, I feel like, they're amazing Korean musicians coming out of Korea and still working actively in Korea. And I think they take advantage of this culture, of singing culture, and musical culture,

a lot of work to do in Korea to educate people, what is even Chopin and what is still the same music compared to their K-pop, their listening, and any other music. So I think that bridge is a little bit more needed, but also at the same time in America, it's that same work is needed for the younger generation. So I think it's a work, it's a very much similar work for the classical music to survive anyway. But I think...

I think overall people would really appreciate art and culture, yet for the job they will encourage you to go to a doctor and become a doctor. What about doctor who can play piano? Nobody would recommend me to go to a doctor.

Srini Rao

Yeah

Jeeyon Kim

field of just musician and what does that mean? You know, it feels very unstable. Unless that's professors, you know, then professors, it's getting a professorship in piano even. Even, it doesn't matter, you got a DMA, even most reputable university in America or in Europe, you still have to bribe. There's still like politics, probably it's everywhere in America as well, but it's more obvious in America, in Korea,

to make a connection to know the right person, why people to bribe, and you know, and then maybe hopefully if you donate $100,000 to the university, you may have a chance. So there's some corruption I see that and hopefully that's getting better or I don't know but...

Oftentimes whenever I go back to Korea, I feel like, you know, I love coming back here. I loved connecting with the culture, and this is my, you know, culture that I really feel connected at the same time. I don't think I can survive here.

Srini Rao

Wow, I mean, that raises so many questions. I now I finally understand why Asian people are so into karaoke. So thank you for telling me that explains what that whole, you know, like phenomenon. I mean, I remember I had two, you know, Chinese girlfriends and I was like, what is it with you guys in this karaoke thing? And then now I understand. So it goes back to the roots. Oh, you know, so one thing I want to do this, so you mentioned that you left Korea 20 years ago and you haven't here to study music in the United States.

Jeeyon Kim

Exactly!

Jeeyon Kim

Yes, you do.

Srini Rao

So I'd imagine that you probably have also been around Korean-Americans who have also pursued careers in music. What did you see as the sort of contrast in the way that, you know, they were raised, the way that they were socialized, you know, and narratives around careers in the arts for them versus you? Was it the same as what we were just talking about, or did you notice any distinct differences because of the fact that they grew up here?

Jeeyon Kim

I see, that's very interesting.

You know, when I came to America, I decided I really need to immerse myself into the culture. So I already speak English, which probably helped. A lot of people thought I was Korean American, but I was just very much Korean when I arrived. The first day, everything was so foreign, like, you know, everything about it was like it's a foreign country, every language.

So I was kind of can fit into the culture.

But I have to figure a lot of things out. And I think it's first thing that I was really surprised was driving through. What's a drive through? You know, I went to the like, you don't even walk to the store. You actually drive through, you know, and that was like a culture thing. And a lot of just little things, you know. So there are I'm not sure I could speak for those Korean actually moved to America, which is still had a difficult time for the language.

Srini Rao

Hahaha!

Jeeyon Kim

and still having a difficult time to adjusting their culture into the new culture and adjusting themselves. And I think I did a really good job even though I came like, you know, in 22 or 23, I'm already established a person. And then I came to a different culture. But I still did not have a lot of a Korean friend, but I really tried to like go to American church and

Jeeyon Kim

become a part of the culture. I try really hard. And from there I could see, oh, there's some part of the culture in America. It's a little funny. I don't know. They don't really like, you know, appreciate, like, there are a lot of waste, I saw, in Korea. Everything has to meticulously measure into not to be waste. And you have to pay for it to go to waste, you know?

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Jeeyon Kim

being of the trash can is like huge. I never seen that huge of trash can. And you just throw everything one together and I felt crying to do that. And then I see these Korean American musicians in school most of times actually. And there grew up a different kind of, I think, difficulties. I think we both have challenges. Korean being complete, being Korean and coming to America. Everything is so foreign.

I think their difficulty is finding who they are. Am I Korean? Am I American? They're speaking English, but yet they may speak Korean with their parents. They're understanding some kind of Korean culture, but they've never been to Korea. You know, so they are like trying to figure out their identity versus I am. I already know my identity. My identity is Korean, but I wanted to try to immerse myself into American culture. So I felt like I'm actually have a head of them in some...

ways that the stableness of a mindset that I'm already know who I am like who I am is American Korean but I'm gonna be like American but I'm only gonna pick and choose what I like about this both cultures there are some things in Korean culture I hate some things like American courage I love so I kind of like you know I always hated in Korea but now hahaha I love this you know so I felt like I have a better perspective of two cultures

be able to emerge and find the best version for me and to make conscious choices where is America is better for me or Korea is better? No, I actually know that America is better for me because of this reason. First is I wonder Korean Americans actually did not have enough Korean culture to be exposed just like only Korean, Korea town in LA, you know, or some Korean

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Jeeyon Kim

with the food that they eat, but not so much of those what is the culture is really giving you that kind of good and bad. So a lot of Korean parents that they grew up with, they're also stopped in their 50 years ago the mindset in Korea, so that they didn't really grew up with the Korea as Dweb developed. So I think their concept of Korea

Jeeyon Kim

Their mindset can be also very more stubborn and traditional mindset. So I think they struggle even more of Americanized. They grew up in America, yet their parents kind of stay in that traditional 50 years ago Korea.

even though they're living in America. So I don't know, I can't speak for Korean American culture, but I do see that. But obviously the big advantage of them growing up in America is they speak fluently. The English is their mother language. So they can maybe step into some other, like a culture or field or work.

much more easily but yet I still make a full of mistakes in English but yet music is still universal language so I don't find that there's a lot of barriers the way I communicate with people with how I speak English. I'm not sure how much more advantage I would have if I have just polished and no mistakes not so ever just perfect English so I'm not sure.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Jeeyon Kim

I'm not sure if I even answered that question correctly.

Srini Rao

Yeah, no, you know, it's funny. You speak about music as the sort of universal language. You may have heard of him. There's this Indian composer, A.R. Raman, who does all the soundtracks for the Bollywood movies. And it's funny, I mean, despite being Indian American, I'm not really into Bollywood movies. And I absolutely love all of this guy's music, and I don't understand a word of it, because I don't speak Indian. I'm like, okay, this is, and somebody, his biographer said, he's like, the man is the definition of the word, the phrase music. You know.

Jeeyon Kim

Okay.

Jeeyon Kim

Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha.

Srini Rao

has no language. So, that obviously raises sort of numerous interesting points about culture and being socialized. But I wanna go back to something you said at the beginning of our conversation about sort of tiger moms and being five years old, being forced to practice. So we had Daniel Coyle here who wrote a book called The Talent Code. And one of the things that he said, and this is a pattern that I saw.

Jeeyon Kim

I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.

Jeeyon Kim

Mmm. Hehehe. Mm-hmm.

Jeeyon Kim

Oh. Mhm.

Srini Rao

you know, with a lot of people who study people who become experts, you know, even Anders Eriksson, who sadly passed away this year, who kind of coined the term deliberate practice. There's this sort of common thread that child prodigies often don't become successful as, you know, adult musicians. And, you know, not that I was a child prodigy, but, you know, I saw kind of firsthand.

Jeeyon Kim

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

how I lost the love for this thing. And funny thing is my parents didn't force me to practice. Like if you have a kid who plays a tuba and you live in an apartment, the last thing they want is somebody who practices all the time. Yeah. So, uh, but the thing that I think is so striking to me is that at five years old, you just had this sort of love and passion sustained. So why is that? And then what happens to those kids who lose it?

Jeeyon Kim

I think it's... the life is complicated.

person is very complicated. You know, I, because I am also teacher that teaches those potentially, so much potentially in this prodigy, like students coming in my, you know, in my garden, because I feel like I'm a gardener and I can only kind of help them to grow in their own shape, a bonsai tree or something, you know. And I see those like, oh my gosh, there's so much potential. They have a sense of rhythm.

It's so organic and natural. Yet they're always lacking something significant to become a musician. I think a musician, I'm not sure on any other field, but especially for musicians, this is a lifelong journey.

So we can really kind of measure someone's success the way they plan five or 10 years old, or even 20, or even 30 sometimes. And we have to look at it as the life journey of it. And a lot of times we praise like five years old, oh my gosh, there's like a lot of seeds, it's growing, it's growing, oh my gosh. And there's a lot of kind of a...

around the relative to the age. Yes, they are creating amazing music relative to the five years, but if I hear only that music, close my eyes, I can still see the maturity in that. I wouldn't really...

Jeeyon Kim

nurture or appreciate that whatever they already have naturally. And what I'm really interested in for me is how they're going to carry this amazing seed they have and make it into a wonderful tree in 50 and 60 years down the road. But a lot of times those kids often they're praised young. They're praised probably. They're, wow, you have so much talent.

Jeeyon Kim

from what they have is amazing, but still they have to work really hard, as hard as other people don't have it, even harder to make something beautiful or something very special about it. But I think they kind of like, oh, I had it, I'm always talented. I just don't have to do a lot of work, but it actually comes very easy. I think that's actually a very dangerous gift. And at that point, they never made a connection from the hard work and actually feel the challenge.

feels defeated when they're young and never really nobody pay attention to them. Nobody told them they're prodigy. Maybe that gives them a drive and like I want to work hard and then when they work hard and they create a beautiful music afterwards and someone like really moved by that performance and they felt wow I really worked hard. I connected and someone really felt it. Then those

Jeeyon Kim

those kids that already create something beautiful I'm sure but then a lot of people like hundred people is like oh my gosh this kid's gonna be next Horvich and the next Rubenstein of the world then they're like oh yeah I already have it and as soon as they feel failure they feel like oh no I can't do this you know they're very much weaker in their mindset and I'm grateful that I

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Jeeyon Kim

And in some ways I feel, ah, I wish I was a prodigy. Wouldn't that be easier? And then at the end, I think it's easier not to be prodigy. And actually we don't need a prodigy. Actually someone who's a love of music and continue making into something organic as they grow as a person. And, you know, because when I went to art high school, there were like already like 20 or 100 pianists in Korea.

which were playing very much advanced repertoire. They could be very much like professional pianist level. At that point, they were already playing 15 years of their life in piano. Where are they now?

I don't know, I don't see them anywhere. You know, I mean at that point, I think everybody could call majority of them or prodigy. They're war prodigy, but where are they? But I think they're burnout. They first taste of failure, they gave up because they were not really create the environment that they actually, the failure is more of the taste of this field than the success. You have to create what the sense of success is,

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Jeeyon Kim

people but from within. Otherwise you always ask for other people to comment or you know like other people's comments and I think that's dangerous you know and because there are so many musicians out there and you if you think about you know tuba there's less sit but piano and think about piano every other block there's a pianist you know so there's much more competition in that way as well and I think it's easy.

to think that you are in the ocean of you know thousand millions of pianists who are prodigy and why am I doing this? What's my place? And there's no point of doing this, you know? I mean someone else can do it. So they go into that kind of trap which is very dangerous and they will give up.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's so true for all creative work. I think that I see this with writers who have some sort of success and they rest on their laurels. And it's basically, you're only as good as the last thing you created, and the journey really never ends. To me, it's like the moment you rest on your laurels, you're done. So I think that really does make a beautiful segue into talking specifically about the book. And funny enough, I want to use a bizarre story as a jump off

in the book. So, you know, I...

told you I made all state band three years in a row. I was really fortunate because Texas is like, you know, a breeding ground for world-class musicians. It probably has the best high school music. You probably know this, but it has probably the best high school music program in the country because there's nothing else to do in Texas. If you have football, you have band and orchestra. And not only that, there's a portion in some districts, music education is mandatory, which was wonderful. And I had a teacher who told me you will make all state band the day I picked up the instrument. And, you know, I had no natural musical aptitude,

Jeeyon Kim

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Um, that motivated the hell out of me to practice. And so, you know, in ninth grade, um, the way that Texas works is you have, you know, all region, all area, and then all state. And in ninth grade, what they do is they create a separate all region band for ninth graders, um, because they think that, you know, ninth graders won't, you know, make it to the other one. And my band director was like, no, you're not doing that. He said, you'll be first chaired. You know, so he said, you need to challenge yourself. And so he said, I think that you can actually make it to air.

Jeeyon Kim

Mmm.

Jeeyon Kim

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

which is the next, that's one step away from all state band. So I ended up being second chair in the region and I remember everybody called me the kid who's actually a senior who looks like a freshman, even though I was a freshman. But then we got to Aria and to this day, this is one of those moments in my life that I think I still resent, mainly because I feel like it defined me forever and I felt like I even...

Jeeyon Kim

Uh-huh.

Srini Rao

Because to me, making all state band in California didn't mean the same thing as it did in Texas. So there was no redemption to it. But I'll tell you what happened because I think it really does make a perfect segue to getting into the concepts in the book. I mean, you know this as somebody who's auditioned, right? Because professional orchestras use blind auditions where they don't know the name of the people. So, you know, you don't end up playing the whole piece because nobody has time to hear you play the entire thing. You play like the excerpt that they ask you to play. So you go into the, you know, we go into the room. It was at the UT Austin Music School.

Jeeyon Kim

way. Way.

Srini Rao

You know, we go through the first two rounds and I played both pieces perfectly, you know, just nailed them. I was like, ah, I'm like, here I am. And I remember telling a friend that morning, I was like, you know what? I, the fact that I got this far was unlikely anyways, given I was a freshman. I was like, my only outcome that I would be incredibly disappointed or devastated by was that if I missed all state band by one chair, anything else would be fine. And of course that's exactly what happened when we went back into.

Jeeyon Kim

I'm here.

Jeeyon Kim

Mmm.

Jeeyon Kim

Wow. Ah!

Srini Rao

you know, the room for the third piece, for some reason, my mouthpiece had gone cold. Like you probably know this, the brass instruments you have to warm up. And for some reason, like when I played it, I cracked a couple of notes and I was like, holy shit. And I still know the name of the kid who beat me to this day. I remember his name was Scott Jackson and he wore a beret. And, you know, in Texas, there was a rule where if, you know, whoever, you know, like was picked.

Jeeyon Kim

Hahaha

Srini Rao

didn't have good grades the next semester, then the next alternate would get to go. And here I am, hoping some kid who I've met once fails all his classes. So I think that makes a perfect segue to, in my mind, to talking about the ideas in the book, but you're somebody who makes a living doing this. What happened? What happened in that moment to me?

Jeeyon Kim

Oh, to write a book? Oh.

Srini Rao

Well, no, yeah, I mean, what happened to me in that moment? Because I think that is like a perfect jump off point to kind of get into the concepts in the book. Something clearly happened that just, you know, paralyzed me.

Jeeyon Kim

Yeah, I think that possibly self-doubt.

and they actually wanted to win something which is external goal. It's often dangerous in music and rather than actually connection to the music and you just do the best without expecting the result. So every time I go on a stage, I do my best and I want to connect, but I want to connect to the music, but I don't expect this to be more successful. I win this competition.

Jeeyon Kim

the way, then I think we lose a focus on the very thing we do, which is actually appreciating the very moment and make a...

humble approach to, you know, I'm grateful that I'm here. I'm grateful there are people actually listening, even though this is a competition, even though that was like really severe, you know, you only play the excerpts. I wonder if you were actually connected to the music and thinking to connect this music through the music and to the people, and maybe you wouldn't be able to kind of continue the momentum of beautiful music. But then at that moment, I felt like you could have,

oh, I'm going well, I'm going well, which is, I always find that the going well voice is also not helpful. You know, it's not going well, it's also not helpful, which I call it as a monster, but angel voice, which is like, wow, you're doing great, it's also not helpful, because none of those voices is not part of the music. So those, I find that we are observer of those voices, so when you can, you know, really follow

Srini Rao

Hahaha!

Jeeyon Kim

all of those angels voice like, whoa, you're doing great. And all of a sudden the monster like, uh-uh, you're not going well. You know, so then you're caught up in their debate. But I find that it's really important that I keep it neutral. I'm not the angel, I'm not the monster, but I'm actually here to observe or just let them debate and actually focusing on the music and I become a messenger of the music. And that I think for me, it makes me to be in the zone

need to be. So I can only assume that you are really caught up in your angelic voice and also that you lose your focus on what it is important in that very moment, which is probably you creating music and you appreciate being there fully in the moment and regardless what happens.

Srini Rao (39:05.undefined)

Yeah.

Srini Rao

It's so funny. I don't think I've ever heard anybody articulate that back to me like that before, but it makes complete sense because it was something that I placed so much validation on. It was just like, oh, I'm going to be this kid who like is going to be the freshman and makes all state banned for the first time in 15 years from my high school. So everything you say makes complete sense. Let's talk about sort of habit and practice. One of the things that you say is that it's not willpower, but a habit that makes things happen and to create those habits, we must create a system.

I am hyper aware of that, but you go on to say something that really struck me. You say the first stage of learning is filled with great excitement of everything new in that honeymoon stage of the fresh relationship with a piece. Then a day or two, maybe a week goes by, soon the real struggle of the piece, the real journey starts to set into the practice routine. No more messy playing, no more just goofing around with careless fingering as allowed. And so...

I think that I see this with a lot of creative people who do, you know, creative projects from writing books to starting blogs to starting podcasts. The problem is that the minute that struggle becomes very real to them. That's when they're just like, oh, this isn't going to be as, you know, pleasurable as I thought it was going to be. And they give up. How do you people stop themselves from giving up when things get hard, particularly because you and I both know this all creative work sucks when you start everybody sucks at everything when they start

Jeeyon Kim

Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, I know that's really difficult. I think everything we do is initially like, oh my gosh, this is a brilliant idea, I'm gonna go for it. Even starting a podcast or YouTube channel, I'm gonna have a millions subscribers or the new piece that I try to go is like, oh my gosh, this is gonna be amazing piece. And soon, as I said, about a week or two weeks later, oh, I see. But even in a relationship,

honeymoon stage. You're completely in the la land. I think everything we do is like a relationship that you have to put the effort and time into it to make the relationship deep in the relationship. For me, those relationships that I care the most is the one that you go through the ups and downs and actually know this person better and continuously

deepen the relationship that I cannot compare that to just the honeymoon stage of anyone. And I think the music as well that at first that I play through and I love it but I really don't know that piece yet you know. I have to go through the struggles. Part of the struggle is getting deepening the relationship which I feel a lot of friction within me like oh this section is difficult like I want to give up at this point like maybe it's easier to give up now than persevere.

like it and the more time put on there is a tipping point like I put so much effort into it I just have to keep going with this you know and then I keep going and keep going there but the thing is that the reason I'm doing is not particular goal what I realized is that not the concert day is my goal that's why I play this particular piece or practice in general I found that

Srini Rao

Duh.

Jeeyon Kim

So then daily practice is actually exercising my love of piano, regardless of what I do, what I play. So if I wanted to create a podcast or writing a book, the act of writing is what I love. Being creative is what I love. So then I really think about, you know, it's actually, I appreciate that I'm actually practicing and playing piano today. And then I kind of let go.

this challenge is part of like, oh wow, this is a part of the journey, but you know what? I am playing piano, you know, so I really have to remind myself what I love about and really put aside those external goals as a, not as a goal, but goal is that I enjoy the process of just doing the act that I love. So then, you know, even if like a creating a podcast and there's actually a lot of

Jeeyon Kim

It's difficult. I think a lot of times people give up. What I really emphasize is that it's not always difficult. There is one point, it's like boiling water. When you get to 100 Celsius, that's only boiling. Not 99, not 98. So a lot of people give up when it's 98. Like, oh my gosh, I did all the months of all the years of this work, it doesn't work. But the thing is, if you kept going, maybe two more pushes,

you could have filled the sense of sweetness of, oh my gosh, I feel like I know what I'm doing, or I feel like there's sense of a freedom, sense of a joy that came out of, because you put so much work into it. It's a different relationship. At that point, that you can't compare to the day one, because you know this, you lived with it. So I often think, even though I don't feel like I'm making progress, I know I'm making progress. I just believe.

that I'm making progress. So I keep going. And when I kept going, and one day that arrives out of nowhere, why didn't happen yesterday? I don't know, but today it happened. You know? So I'm waiting for that moment without being so frustrated, but actually enjoying as I go, I try to like remind myself, I just love the work, the act of doing. You know, if it was a podcast, I just love actually creating podcasts

Srini Rao

Hmm... Yeah.

Jeeyon Kim

Just the fact that I love writing, so I wrote today, so it's just wonderful. And then, and keep pushing it, even when I felt discouraged, I just kept going, kept going. And that day feels much lighter, it's on the way. It's impossible not to have it. Even sense of like, oh, I feel like I know what I'm doing. Even if a little bit of that joy, that joy for me, it cannot be compared for other kind of quick and easy.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Jeeyon Kim

easy joy. You know, it's not like a roller coaster ride in the park. It's not that kind of joy. But this is deeper joy that you can only earn by working hard. And I think I love the fact that all music, all the music that I play is that kind of joy that I give a lot of music to people, but actually they don't understand how much I receive.

Srini Rao

Yeah, you know, it's funny you say that because I think that, you know, people always ask, you know, when you achieve some sort of, you know, like commercial success as an artist, like, how does it change? When I say, you know, it actually doesn't, because the only thing that changes is that now you get to keep doing this thing that you love so much. That's the real reward. Yeah.

Jeeyon Kim

That's right, yeah, that's right.

Srini Rao

So I'll tell you, my absolute favorite quote from your book was this idea of why versus what now. And you know, you say, don't ask about why ask what now, which is something I believe a teacher told you when you had a failure. And you say that thinking about what now is being present in the moment, accepting the current situation, whether good or bad and mentally preparing to take action.

Every step of learning a new piece of music or learning anything new must come with the daily accepting of what's true now and the ever changing discovery of a new relationship. And, you know, I think that what is fascinating to me about that is that it's something that we all know, right? You're choosing to respond with creativity instead of react with, you know, fear or self pity, which I know you go on to talk about. How do people cultivate that practice of asking what now and, you know, channeling?

Jeeyon Kim

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

you know, the responses that come into something more positive.

Jeeyon Kim

Yeah, I think a lot of times when they're asking why, I think it's first thing is that we need to be aware of we're asking that why. Why that happened to me? I work so hard, it shouldn't happen to me. Why, why me? Because that's directing to the past. That's directing to something that we cannot control. That's something that we're just sitting on the floor and crying, you know? And there's nothing positive about that.

As soon as we realize, I realize I'm asking, why, you know, I worked at so hard, you know? As soon as I realize that I'm doing being negative, then I ask that question, turn into what now? Then all of a sudden, like, I feel a sense of strength already, like, there's something I can do about it now. And I always remember, think, remind myself that there's always solutions. I just have to find it.

I just couldn't figure out the solutions yet. It's not a solution. There's many solutions out there. But I just felt whatever that is, I have to accept it and just go forward. And the people, you have to move forward, keep moving forward in life. And I think a lot of people will say that, would you go back in your 20s, early 20s? In my answer, it's no way. I would never want to go back to my early 20s,

Srini Rao

Hahaha!

Jeeyon Kim

I have to go through all those life struggles in order to get to know me better or the lessons that I learned along the way of my life. So my thing is that, yes, I feel like their life throws at you. Some unexpected events always happens. At that moment, they feel like it's so easy for me to feel, oh, I don't deserve this. Why? You know? But at the same time, this is a, has been a life and it will be a life.

but then how to navigate this life to be more positive and to be more happy, what I realized that there's always something to I can do about this situation. And when I keep trying to move forward, and in fact, the failure becomes a reward, and because the another door opened up because of that failure, or whatever that happened at the moment. So I really have to believe that whatever happening at the moment is for the better. And just fake it until make it just believe that this is good.

for me and what can I do about it? What can I do about it? And you know, I think that is about being present. Like even...

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Jeeyon Kim

we are changing. Wherever slightly changing, I believe that yesterday, today, in the big scheme of things, we don't know how much we changed from yesterday then to today. But I often feel like after going through a concert, giving a big concert, next day I feel a different person. I really feel like I changed who I am because of certain experience that I had on the previous day. So we are slightly always changing. So I always wanted to be open-minded to

myself to say I don't know myself yet. You know, because I used to like this, but I don't like this, this. You know, my preference is ever changing, and I don't want another friend who used to be my best friend 20 years ago, oh, Ji-yeon, why you don't like this meat anymore? You know, whatever that is, it's past. It's not me anymore. Just accept me who I am now. And I want to keep moving forward in my life, so I'm looking forward to it.

or 70s, there's different things that I would be able to appreciate because who I am then, you know? So what I can really maximize the life experience now is actually being today, being present today in this very moment. And

What now always direct me to, what can I do? You know, it's like a little smile on my face, like yeah, that was a sweet failure, what can I do? Yeah, I can try this and that, and that really puts me to the work that there's always something I can do from any situation, and that gives me a positive mindset, and I often think that we are, if we don't do anything about actually pushing to the positive mindset,

prone to more negative. I think somehow human beings are more like a force of negative mind is much bigger than positive. So it takes a lot more effort to be positive, but if you do that, maybe you're neutral, you know? So I try to be really like be a lot more energy food to the positive mind for me to not to be default setting, which is to be negative. So if you're not doing anything about being positive,

Jeeyon Kim

negative.

Srini Rao

Well, so there's one other thing that I wanted to ask you about. One of the things you say is, is there anything in your life that you think is too late to start learning? Is there any area that you believe you're not talented in but you love doing bad activity? Then do it regardless of what your assumptions about your potential for improvement might be. And the reason that struck me in particular is when we had Daniel Coyle who wrote the talent code here, I was talking to him about music in particular and how despite what I had done in high school...

Whenever I tried to pick up a musical instrument later in my adult life, I was quick to give up on it. And I think it was largely because I was frustrated that I couldn't get good as quickly as I did then. And he'd asked me and he said, look, he said, are you going to go open for Guns N' Roses at their next concert? If you get to be a good enough guitarist? No. He said at a certain point, brain development, you know, takes on a different way that you just don't have that capacity that you would as you know, when you were your child. But he said, can you get the good enough to impress the shit out of?

Jeeyon Kim

Thank you.

Jeeyon Kim

Yeah.

Srini Rao

your friends and family?" He said, yes, absolutely. So, you know, like, how does, you know, if a, so in other words, I guess the question is, if I wanted to impress the hell out of my friends and family by learning to play the guitar, what would be involved in the process?

Jeeyon Kim

I think it really has to come from...

what you wanna do rather than to someone else. I always, even in my level, I try not to please everybody, but I just keep perfecting or keep deepening my relationship with my music. So, and as a result, yes, that I think you will impress all your friends and family, but I think my advice for that is really focusing on what you are interested, what you are passionate about,

want it to try. Interestingly, a lot of people know that with the perseverance and practice that will improve, but certain areas they kind of think that that's impossible, such as music. They think, oh, I'm too late. I didn't grow up five years old and pick up on piano, so I'm too late. I'm talking maybe their early 30s or early 40s, whatever their

Jeeyon Kim

to pick up an instrument and actually be able to be comfortable with that instrument and be able to express themselves. Their goal is actually to be able to express themselves through their music and be comfortable and sufficient on an instrument. Absolutely. I think the goal here is that now I'm accepting whatever this is, guitar, piano, whatever that is, as a part of my life.

and something there's in five years from now, I'm gonna give a concert to my friends and family. I'm gonna impress everybody. That I find it's a little bit of dangerous goal because then you still asking for the other person's approval, not from within. So I think it's really have to come from within. There were like seven years old came to me in the past and 10 years ago taking lessons like, wow, and what is your goal? Like when I get into return,

Srini Rao

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Jeeyon Kim

and 85 years old, I'm gonna, you know, making everybody like rock and roll in the return home center. And I was like, you know, yeah, seven years old. Yeah, seven years old, thinking 85 years old, I hope that can do that. And I, you know, I said, absolutely you can do it. You will be the rock star of the return home center. I can guarantee you, I can guarantee you. And you know, so his goal was actually enjoy, he loved music,

Srini Rao

A seven year old thinking about an old folks home.

Jeeyon Kim

took a piano, not a single C, you know, ding, on piano. But he came and he was rock and rolling. Of course, it's not a rate of improvement of five years old, even 10 years old, even 20 years old. But he is improving. In fact, he enjoys so much, his life was enriched by having an instrument in his life. And at the end, whether he's become a rock star in the retired home center or not,

He enriched his life so much that this is like, you know, present to his life, you know? So what is the measure of that? There's nothing to measure that because it's coming from within. He loved it. Every time he plays piano, he smiles and happy, you know? And at the end, people love it even you're not most proficient professional level, but in fact, he is pretty good, you know? In fact, people would think that...

think that wow you're so talented where that talent come from and he would say practice when you're 70 pick up the instrument and start practicing you know so my advice is really is it has to come from within you know it's with Daniel Pink would agree with me the motivation has to come from intrinsic motivation what do you want to do what are you really interested in don't worry about

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Jeeyon Kim

worry about the rate. Actually humans we have to try harder to live with outside of the time. You know we're not in a race. What kind of race is it? Only race is at some point we're gonna die. We don't know that either you know. So we are really only species that aware of time and because of that I think we suffer so much. So when you speak up and use an instrument 70 people would think isn't that too late? What is the point of the late or early?

that, you know. It doesn't matter. You just live fully, being present in the moment, enjoy whatever you want to do. And I think in the bypass of it, it's so much greater and other people would actually appreciate and receive from it, but you were enriching your life by introducing and keep, you know, pursuing whatever you wanted to do.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, I mean, so I think that raises sort of two final questions for me that you, you know, brought up in the book. One of the things that you say is everyone has a different view of that perfect picture of success, yet it often seems down to come down to numbers. You know, one of the examples that you cite is if you have X amount of money, then you're successful. And I think this really struck me. You said, I find that this picture of success is often elusive. We never have enough of it. The goal becomes a moving target.

And yet we are so conditioned to chase moving targets because that's what our society celebrates. That's what our society rewards. You know, we put billionaires on the covers of magazines. You know, it's people like you that get to write books. With all that sort of social programming in mind, how do you break that conditioning of chasing a moving target?

Jeeyon Kim

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jeeyon Kim

It's difficult because we are living in that environment. And a lot of people pressure in some ways that, oh, aren't you supposed to chase bigger venues of concert or more concerts or more followers in Instagram, more people to give a concert to. If there's 1,000 people in the audience, that's a successful concert.

And I think, again, it has to really make a decision of what is a success to certain people, to you and to me. And that's coming from actually my own experience of doesn't matter if there's five people in the audience or a thousand people in the audience, that does not make one concert is more successful than the other. It's the way I am, my being, it determines.

I struggled through this thousand people hall and I was really battling against the monster and angel the whole time in my concert. It's not a successful concert for me. But if there's five people in the audience and I somehow fully connect with it within myself to the music and be able to really express it, there's not so much a struggle. I would call it a successful concert without what the numbers actually mean for that concert.

And then more and more I realized that it's very elusive game we are in. And I think we really have to know what makes one happy, what makes one to be successful without numbers. And for me, what kind of story can I create on a daily basis? Like if I were connected to my friends and I eat yummy food

get to express music on piano.

Jeeyon Kim

And I actually felt very peaceful and content. And all of those status of being is more important than numbers, because if I started to chase numbers, that I feel like I'm in the race, red race basically, that like, oh, someone else is chasing someone else I have to chase too. And it's really stressful, and it's not the life design that I wanna be designed in my structure of life.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Jeeyon Kim

and actually remove myself from that picture, then I am actually, I am very successful today because I create music and I continuously being able to creative and I also be mindful and I was able to move my body. I felt great after running outside. Whatever the glimpse of happiness, I could experience more glimpse of happiness throughout the day.

than anyone in this world to me. So I try to find those moments and really appreciate those moments arrive. Like when I go and practice piano and then I really enjoy certain moments, like oh my gosh, I love it. Or when I connect with your friends and have a just chit chat and great to connect with a friend. And I felt like, oh, this is so nice. Or I just had a lunch and it was like,

this food is actually really delicious, you know, or whatever this is. I try to kind of put those moments on the palm of my hand and cherish it for longer.

in my heart. And in order to do that, I have to create awareness a little bit better by practicing meditation and try to put myself in more of a calm lake. So that whenever those things happen in my life, bad or good, that I cannot react to it but really appreciate when that happens, when bad happens, also I know that it will go. This also will pass.

I can continue being who I am, keep blossoming, keep blossoming, whoever I become, and accept whatever that would be. And for me, that's, I don't know, that's the model of success to me, and I don't know how else could I create a successful day, a successful self, or a model of success than that.

Srini Rao

Wow, beautiful. So I want to finish with one last area from the book that really struck me. And I really love this, but I was so curious about it. You said, you talk about pianos, and you almost personify pianos. You say, even though those pianos on stage might look fabulous, the unique personality of each piano is something every pianist has to adjust to every time we play on them. Meeting each piano for a concert is very much like meeting a person. I need to find out what personality and tendencies each piano has.

as I began conversation and music. And that struck me so much because I never thought of, you know, sort of a musical instrument as having, you know, a personality that way. Why is that? Like, what does that allow you to do, you know, as a creative and, you know, if, how does that apply to somebody who does any other kind of creative work?

Jeeyon Kim

Yeah.

Jeeyon Kim

Yeah, I think.

That's the unique about being pianist. Often people joke about being pianist is making bad piano sound good. I really agree that because often when I go to concert hall, although it looks all shiny and beautiful, they always have some underlying health conditions that I have to accept it. But I often have to accept it very quickly. And I only have three hours to get to know this instrument before I actually give a public concert. And at the moment, again,

to accept whatever this is and start to have a conversation with the piano and I realized that often some people piano is furniture, instrument, dead thing but for me it's actually living thing when I try to have a conversation, hey how are you today? Let's have a great conversation and believe this piano is the best ever existed in this world and try to create some colors that even this piano never

even imagine and I try to just throw myself out there I think you have more there I think you can create even softer sound here can we try it and then it does magically it's just magic of it I think is it's something about the energy that I give and the piano it's somehow responsive and I responds back and I keep having this conversation to this instrument is that becomes another layer of the being a pianist and being on stage and that taught me actually

everything in life, the thing, the relation with the things that's actually very become precious. That it's Mary Kondo who really agreed with me of a minimalistic approach to things but I think what I really love about relationship with things is that when you have some things that if this notebook or whatever the pencil it's you appreciate and if you have this thing

Jeeyon Kim

Relationship changes and so Mary Kondo when they when he when she talked about is at put the thing Clothing or furniture whatever these things touch it and ask is this is this thing? Sparking a joy or not if it doesn't spark a joy let it go

and thank them. Like, thank you for being in my life, served me well for thus far, now I let you go. So then everything around me as sparks of joy, that creates a positive environment. I think the design in your environment to be positive is crucial for daily basis. So I try to, as best as possible, to put things in my house, around in my environment, in my vision, the things that I only

need or spark a joy and when it doesn't and I tried to let go and I tried to have a conversation with things every now and then it may sound crazy but the mug cup that you drink a coffee out of like oh thank you I really love you I really appreciate you. To the clothing that you like I really love this clothing you know it's not materialistic actually it's opposite what whatever you have you appreciate you know so people in Americano there is really like a

heartwarming ceremony she does every time she goes into someone's house, she bows on her knees and says thank you to the house to provide protection and love and that place for the family. And I think that kind of...

appreciating things and to a point that this is the only thing and I would carry or care for it and piano I can't have a conversation to this mug cup I can actually have a conversation I appreciate I think that's actually coming from some of us actually Asian culture as well we didn't have a lot before so that really like we go through the war and you know a lot of like hands down

Jeeyon Kim

more. Now there are so many things that things we occupy us then we occupied them and I think we have to create a relationship with a positive relationship with the things and for me that giving a soul into a thing change the relationship so that I can say goodbye or welcome them or say thank you or say I love you and so then I appreciate when that thing disappeared then like I thank you for being there in my life then now it's

say goodbye, rather than unaware of all of the things in your space that kind of clutter in your mind and you're not aware of what things are around you.

Srini Rao

Wow. Well, I have one last question for you, which is how we finish all of our interviews at the Unmistakable Creative. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Jeeyon Kim

Say that again.

Srini Rao

What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Jeeyon Kim

Unmistakable?

Hmm.

Jeeyon Kim

Hmm, what is unmistakable? I think that would be rather boring. Mistake is fun. I think for me, when someone or thing or person is unmistakable.

It's a very dangerous statement. That means either they're lying or they're hiding or they're not accepting the reality. They're not accepting what is. And I think the part of the mistake is not actually a mistake. It is a part of the imperfect human being. And I think a lot of times in our society that there is a perfect figure of mannequin that a lot of women is like, oh, I need to have a smaller waist.

really exist. You know, having bodies a certain way, the natural body, the way we are, just perfect, the way you are, it's just perfect. If we think it as what is perfect, what is a mistake, we're creating black and white which doesn't exist. My life is messy. Life cannot really define as a mistake or success or whatever that is. So for me, it's unmistakable,

Jeeyon Kim

I much rather to be messy place and free to make a mistake and accepting the mistake and learn from mistake and keep moving forward, keep growing. That's a place I wanna be. And I don't call it as a mistake. It's something like, oh, I play widely so that I can not go there this time. I'm gonna play it the other way. But it's again the playground concept of life is a playground. What I would like to do, what could I listen to myself? How could I direct myself?

about making mistakes because if I think try to be careful not making mistakes I will not go anywhere which probably kept capture me going into the little box in inside the box and I will not be able to expand myself keep enjoy what life could offer me again I'm here only the limited time and I want to experience I want to keep growing I want to keep inspiring others or be

And I think that's where I want to be. And the mistake or non-mistake is not the concept I want to put it in my head. So that unmistakable is the exact place that I want to go opposite.

Srini Rao

Amazing. Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us. We can share your story, your wisdom and your insights with listeners. This has been really beautiful. Where can people find out more about you, your work, the book and everything that you're up to?

Jeeyon Kim

Yeah, I think you can find my book anywhere, but it's a novel, Amazon. I actually read this book myself, so it's available and audible. I was very self-conscious about reading book with a Korean accent. At the end though, I think that's a beautiful journey. I don't think many authors would experience reading your own book out loud for like six or seven hours. And afterwards, I actually felt like I was meeting myself. And I actually sense of loss at the end of reading the last.

sentence, as if I had met these invisible readers, that we went on a journey, a beautiful journey for a year and a half or two years, and we're about to say goodbye. And I think that we know that the journey was beautiful, but it's time to say goodbye. This beautiful experience for me to read my own book, and I think you might appreciate going through this book, and for me it is a journey, and for me this is a written concert for you.

whether this is you read it or listening to me, I think it is another invitation for me to reach out to you and connect. So that's all I wanted through coming out of this book. And I'm easy, easily to be found. And I think if you like my book, you might also like to be part of my newsletter, which I write every two weeks and things that resonate with me that week, the music that I, my favorite music of the week.

you can actually follow me more closely regular basis so if I ended up in your area to perform you feel like you're coming to your best friends happen to be concert pianist giving a concert in your town so please be connected Instagram and Twitter but I would advise that best way is through my newsletter and I think you might appreciate my podcast which is journey through classical piano where I talk about

one piece of music in depth as a friend.

Srini Rao

Amazing. And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.