Jenny Blake | Freeing Your Time To Do Your Best Work

Srini Rao

Jenny, welcome to the Unmistakable Creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Jenny Blake

Thank you so much for having me, Shrini. It's an honor to be here.

Srini Rao

Yeah, you are in sort of rare company of deaths who have been here three times. And yeah, and we were just saying, like the last time you and I talked was 11 years ago, you have a new book out called Free Time, Lose the Busy Work, Love Your Business, all of which we will get into. But having been on the show before, you know, that's not where we're going to start. One of the things that I have noticed and even thinking back to some of our earlier conversations is that you reference your dad a lot in your work.

Jenny Blake

Wow, I feel very lucky.

Srini Rao

And I want to start asking you what is one of the most important lessons that he or your mother have taught you that have influenced in shape who you've become and what you've done with your life.

Jenny Blake

What a great singer to start us off. My dad is a consummate creative. He's always reading, thinking, painting, songwriting. So from him I learned just the creative entrepreneurial spirit and he's also very rigorous. So the reason I mention him so much in my books is because he does very intense close reads of every single one and edits them and he'll ask me before he dives in, do you want gloves off? My answer is always yes.

And that means he's going to be ruthless with his feedback and his comments, and he will pull no punches. There will be red ink, proverbial and literal all over the page. And I just so believe that kind of feedback makes everything better. Some people get offended, you know, he's had, he's edited other people's work and they get offended by that and get their feelings hurt. And I took from one of my very earliest mentors, Michael Larson. He said, don't spare me, spare the reader. I feel the same way.

So that's a lesson I learned from my dad and from Michael is just get the tough feedback. It will make everything better. And it's better to get the feedback and then accept what resonates and reject what doesn't than to be afraid to ask at all. And so, yeah, he's been a big part of every book. And then my mom as well, just in a very different way. She's more, she's worked at Stanford for over 20 years and she has vision. They're both architects, but her vision is very kind of like.

big systematic structural putting in the work over time, which is really cool to see.

Srini Rao

Hmm. So that very, like, you know, ruthless feedback, was that something that was just incorporated early on from when you were a kid, or is that start, like, when you started writing books?

Jenny Blake

It was more working on the books. My dad is the kind, if I told my dad I wanted to run for president, he would genuinely believe that I could become the president. So he has always said, yeah, go for it. Do whatever you want. Like reach for the stars. He has no in his mind and how he was always encouraging to my brother and I, there was just no limit. He would not shoot down any ideas. And I'm very grateful for that. That level of encouragement, because I don't.

I've never been somebody that for some reason, even with that coming from my dad and my mom's always encouraging too, but I'm not very confident. I'm always kind of doubting myself and now as I'm, gosh late thirties. It's different than when I was in my twenties, but it takes me a long time to kind of muster up the courage or think that I know enough or I'm equipped enough even to write this new book, know enough about business. I'm always the one kind of hesitating a little bit and I know how much I don't know.

partly because I read so many other books. And so he was never critical in that sense on a big picture, but when it comes to writing and clarity of thought, that's where the gloves come off.

Srini Rao

It's fascinating because I mean, you and I were talking about this whole idea of context and prescriptive advice. And I almost think that you're actually self-aware enough to know that, okay, maybe I shouldn't be confident about something that I know nothing about. And I think that whole idea of, oh, you can do whatever you want, you can do anything, like it's this difference. And it's funny because we're talking about harsh and critical feedback from your dad. And to me, I feel like often there are people who will tell you what you want to hear. And then there are people who will tell you what you need to hear.

And what you need to hear sucks, but it's actually more useful and better in the long run.

Jenny Blake

Right. And then what's interesting about feedback is it's not about me personally. I'm not a bad person. It's like, let's get this text to be as crisp as clear. You know, my dad has an abbreviation W-K-I-Y-B. That stands for We Know It's Your Book. As in anytime I would write, I think, I believe, in my opinion, he would cross it off and put that abbreviation. We know it's your book. And somebody might read that as snarky or something, but

I think it's quite funny. It's like, oh, he's making the point that my name's on the cover. I don't need to say, I think over and over or kind of soften the language. And you're right. So I think it's also recognizing when feedback is for the person and even with my team, I'm always saying it's usually never the person who's bad or doing something wrong. It's a process is broken. Stress is a systems problem. Let's look at the system. Let's look, why did this fall through the cracks? It's not because

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Jenny Blake

you're inept, it's because our system is not tight enough. And so just like the metaphor of spinach in your teeth, and Kim Scott talked about this in her book, Radical Candor, you want someone to tell you if there is spinach in your teeth, you want someone to tell you.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I it's funny because I think creatives in particular are so sensitive about learning how to take feedback like they can't separate feedback on them from feedback on the work is I learned this when I worked with my writing coach Robin, who all of you will hear an interview with soon. And she was kind of like your dad. And that was actually the reason I chose her because she told me she's like, I am going to be tough on you. And

I don't think I the closest thing I got to a compliment in the entire manuscript in two books or in both books was good. But pretty much like the common and not only that the comments were things like lazy try again. And she had added books for Seth Godin. So I was like, all right, well, you've edited books for Seth Godin. So you know what the hell you're doing. I should listen to you. But it took me a month before I stopped taking her feedback personally.

Jenny Blake

Oh yeah, totally.

Jenny Blake

Yes, and it's so vulnerable. I mean, any creative work, I remember thinking when I turned the first draft of Free Time into the developmental editor, Herb, I genuinely, in my heart of hearts, did not know if he was going to write back and say, you should burn this whole thing. You should scrap this entire book. Do not pass go. Don't write this book. It's a disaster. And I genuinely thought that was a likely outcome of him reading the first draft. That's how unsure and insecure I was about what was there.

I was so close to the material. Thankfully, he wrote back. He said, this is amazing. I've worked in the industry 30 years. I love it. There's something unique here. And just his positive feedback really put wind in my sails and gave me wings and the project wings. And so it's amazing. It's so interesting, I find, when you're in that very vulnerable state. It's incredible how the right constructive feedback is so propelling and so helpful. And just a little encouragement can kind of keep the lights on.

of a process is very easy to get discouraged by.

Srini Rao

Yeah, well, I mean, this podcast exists because since of our my first co-founder was like, yeah, he's like, your writing is average. He's like, your interviews are fantastic. So do that instead.

Jenny Blake

Yeah, and then as the saying goes, it's hard to read the label from inside the jar. Sometimes it's when other people say, like he said to you, your interview skills are fantastic. I don't know. I that's why. Going back to this idea of confidence. I'm not always, I'm not the most confident person because I just feel like I don't know. It's my, you know, I have a podcast too. I'm like, it's my voice, it's my ideas. I'm sick of hearing myself, but if other people kind of reflect what they're hearing or what they think is unique. It.

Confirms things that I don't think I could always tell just on my own

Srini Rao

What did your parents teach you about making your way in the world? I mean, obviously you ended up following a relatively conventional path to a certain point. I mean, I know if I remember correctly, you went to UCLA and then Google after that.

Jenny Blake

Yeah, I did UCLA startup for two years and then Google for five and a half. I was the latch key kid. So my parents were both working full time. I lived in San Francisco. I would be taking the bus by myself through the city, figuring out how to entertain myself after school. Because I saw them working full time. I had jobs and little side hustles since I was 10 years old and I was always earning money. That's kind of like a strange thing, but.

From a very young age, I would do things like started a family newspaper and charge for subscribers, started a babysitting business. Yeah, I had 50 subscribers. I started I had to pay for postage. I had to pay for printing and postage. And I started when I was 11 and I kept going in the monthly dig up every month all the way through high school. It turned quarterly at one point. Yeah. And I created a neighborhood carnival. So I was, I guess money was always on my mind. And

Srini Rao

Wait, you charge your own family for the newsletter? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Srini Rao

That's hilarious. Yeah.

Jenny Blake

You might hate astrology, but for any astrology nerds, I have my son, Pluto and Saturn are in my second house, which has to do with money and sort of material security. So it's always on my mind. Doesn't mean I always have a lot of money, but it's always something that I'm strategizing. And I do think about the money game that like part of when we're here on this earth in earth school, the money game is like, how do we how do because I used to have a lot of fear and scarcity around money and just being worried.

not to have a roof over my head or not to be earning enough or to be able to provide myself or have independence. And so I think part of the money game is the energy of it, the flow of it, how to accept when the tides roll out, how to accept when the tides roll in and things are really flesh and abundant. So yeah, I guess that's also something that has just been with me since I was a kid.

Srini Rao

So what did you learn from your parents about money growing up and how did that narrative change? Because I mean, I've talked to Rameeth about this and he's like, yeah, we all have these sort of money stories. And I think I feel some of the same things that you mentioned now. And I feel like it just ebbs and flows there are times when it's like feast and famine. But I'm wondering, like, one, you know, what did you learn growing up about money? And then what was the poorest you've ever felt and what was the most abundant you've ever felt and why?

Jenny Blake

Mm-hmm. One big lesson my mom said to me, you should always know how to support yourself. She told me that when I was young, and I never forgot it, that I never, and I have a very fierce independence streak, never wanted to rely on a person or a job for financial security. And

you know, of course I did have some full-time jobs, like you said, the startup in Google, but I always had stuff going on the side. That's when you and I met was when I was blogging on the side. I was doing HTML and CSS tutoring on the side. I always had a portfolio. I never wanted to be reliant on a person or a job where I had to stay in a situation that wasn't good for me just because of the money. And that is something that I feel to this day very passionately about. And I think some of the money stories that I needed

Srini Rao

Hmm.

Jenny Blake

to shed or work on is just these associations, not just from my own family, but society at large, even American culture, it's just like work is hard. Work is a grind. Work isn't supposed to be fun. Work is work. And just this idea of like, it's hard and scarce. And I just realized those thoughts, I mean, there's so many examples where we could show that that's true.

but I also wanted to hold space that what if it wasn't? You know, what if it's easy? Like, who said there's just no, I think we assume that something is true. Like, yeah, even this notion of you have to work really hard or you have to hustle, you have to grind. And now it's off, now we have so many conversations about shifting the culture less away from this hustle and grind sleep when I'm dead mentality, but.

when I was in my early 20s starting out in my career, that wasn't the case. And I just kept burning out and getting sick, like physically, physical thyroid issues and acne and asthma and all these ailments that were with me for so long that I only realized later on that part of the way that I was working was making me sick. And so do I have to buy into the idea that work has to be a horrible, miserable grind in order to earn just enough money? What if I held the belief?

that it could be easy, it could be fun, it could be joyful, it could be serving a higher good. And just what if I tried those on at the same time and then saw what the results were and I always feel better when I lean into that second category of surrender and serendipity even around money, even when it gets uncertain, even when it gets stressful.

Srini Rao

Yeah, well, so this actually raises a question about something that I've been thinking a lot about is the role that privilege plays in being able to think this way. Because let's face it, you and I come from fairly privileged backgrounds. I mean, my dad's a college professor. I mean, your mom worked at Stanford. It's not like we grew up dirt poor and had parents who had to work three jobs. And I always feel like a lot of the conversations we have, like the one you and I are having, are really kind of basically.

tailored to people who come from privileged backgrounds. And we don't really take time to acknowledge that. I'm just curious what your view is on that.

Jenny Blake

Oh yeah, 100%. I mean, what I came to realize as well around this conversation of privilege is the relationship to risk changes. That I could take certain risks like leaving school to work at a startup, leaving Google to go out on my own, because I knew that if worse came to worse, I could move back home. You know, I could move in with my mom or my mom could loan me money, you know, or something like that. And so I think that really changes somebody's risk profile. Knowing

Are you going to be out on the street or do you have a safety net even if it's living in mom's basement, the proverbial basement that we always talk about. So absolutely that has been, that is a privilege. And I also feel something that, you know, we don't talk as much about in terms of privilege, but just education and my parents were both highly educated. So the level of vocabulary that I, they never said no to a book or to travel or anything.

And my parents got divorced when I was young, when I was five years old. So it's not like they were, they weren't necessarily. Together driving these messages home, but just each of them individually held these values. And so that also changes, you know, my love of reading, my love, my vocabulary, my ability to think up, you know, and of course, somebody who doesn't have a traditional education can be so intelligent as well. And.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Blake

that doesn't take away anything away, but it's a real boost to have had just a certain level of like vocabulary growing up. It just gives a head start that some people don't get or they have to work so much harder to get. And so I'm always very mindful. I would say the one thing is I, for some reason, my personality, I never want to ask other people for money. I always want to do it on my own and kind of do it the hard way and be independent. And

So it was always very important to me that everything I do be responsible and be able to sustain myself. And so, you know, that's just that's always been a strong value of mine. I never really wanted to lean on too much on other people. I just felt that wouldn't be responsible. But yeah, I don't say things, you know, like, oh, I bootstrap my business and I say in free time, well, what brand of boots were you born in? It just depends what brand of boots what we this whole thing of starting on third base.

Srini Rao

No.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, Donald Trump basically started up their base.

Jenny Blake

you know, and recognizing the advantages of that.

Jenny Blake

Oh yeah!

Srini Rao

Parents getting divorced when you're young, what impact did that end up having on your relationships in your adult life?

Jenny Blake

Well, there's part of me that was really glad that happened because they were fighting a lot. And I remember thinking, Hallelujah. Like, you know, these two people are not meant to be together. Good. This is great. There will be more peace, hopefully, for all involved. Probably the biggest impact that it had was I started to notice in seventh grade, I was so afraid of a breakup that I never wanted to get into relationships in the first place. And I always felt like...

I was somehow at a kindergarten level or elementary school level of understanding about relationships. And I don't I can't say it's because of the divorce or not. But just even my personality. While everyone else seemed to know what they were doing. And I like I was single most of my 20s, I would date emotionally unavailable men or I would get in these I got catfished before that was a term and a TV show. I would like get into these really weird situations where I was.

over giving or not seeing red flags early enough. And so again, I don't know why I can't I don't I don't want to say oh, that's just because my parents got divorced because I can at the time I was very thankful that happened. But I definitely by nature and by nurture did not have a friggin clue about intimate relationships until now I am married I got married in 2018.

But that was after all my friends were already married and had kids. And I just had reached a point in my life where I'm like, I don't think I'm ever getting married. I just don't think I'm the marrying type. And it's kind of strange to, yeah, it's strange to be married now. Cause I never saw this for myself. I didn't expect it. I didn't see it coming. And I didn't pine for it. I never fantasized about my wedding. I got married at city hall. I didn't wear a dress. I wore a white, uh, like pants, uh, not a pantsuit jumpsuit, like a white jumpsuit. I.

Srini Rao

I can relate.

Jenny Blake

I just never, ever, ever had dreams along these lines. And probably there was a piece of me that had the kind of realism, I guess, about marriage not necessarily just being this fairy tale.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that that's the sort of fatal flaw of a lot of sort of self-help literature and prescriptive advice is that we kind of tell these fairy tale stories and we leave out all the really hard parts in between. It's like, ah, here is my low point. Here's what I learned from it. And, you know, go be inspired. And you're like, wait a minute, that's not the entire story.

Jenny Blake

And it also bothers me that society seems to place such a value. I mean, gosh, even after I got married, I remember so many people accept it. It's like, oh, now they can exhale around you because you fit their idea of the box. And it's, right, right. And it's like, why are people so uncomfortable? And we assume, oh, you're not married by XYZ age. Oh, there must be something wrong with you.

Srini Rao

You're talking to an Indian person who's single at 44, so...

Jenny Blake

And that stigma really irks me. There's a book called Singled Out that I think she's so good. I think she more, it's technically aimed more toward women and the stigma of women not being married, but she just talks about so much stigma around singles and singlehood. And I think that is really unnecessary. It's all, all of it has pros and cons. The grass is always greener somewhere, you know, and.

I just don't accept that we all need to follow the same picket fence path.

Srini Rao

Well, speaking of picket fence paths, I mean, you left Google, which I think, I mean, we talked briefly about that when I think I first talked to you. And I think by a lot of people's standards, that probably sounds insane. It's like, wait a minute, like, this is like, you know, the kind of job that most people would kill for. I'm not interested in why you left as much as how you created a plan that would make leaving possible.

Jenny Blake

I basically the plan was I have six months to live on and it was the first time I was willing to spend it down to zero. So I had saved enough of six months living expenses. At that time I was not confident to go back to our starting theme. It's not like I said to myself, I am going to crush it. I'm going to leave and I know what I'm doing and I have a business plan and I'm already earning what I need to survive. And I've got this. Not at all.

I just reached a point, I was 27, I was in meetings and on email a lot. As much as I had this great job on paper, I remember feeling like I think I will forever regret if I don't at least try to do my own thing. And that's when my first book was coming out. That's around the time you and I met. So that was it was six months. What I didn't anticipate, so I did not think I was this.

brilliant entrepreneurial person and if anyone could be successful, it was me. I actually thought the opposite. However, what I didn't account for was that when I left, my whole mind cleared up. It took, it took about a month to unwind from the pace and the kind of burnout and just fatigue, but after that is like, I had my entire creative mind available to say, how am I going to pay the rent this month? That's it. Like I had, I had all day every day for 30 whole days to myself.

having done things only as a side hustle to literally just figure out what can I offer? How many clients do I need? And how do I create some systems and predictability around my cashflow? And that's it. So although I wasn't super confident, I didn't, I didn't account for how that free mental space was going to be such an asset. And then if lo and behold, the six months came and went, I was earning money every month and

It wasn't until a few years after that, that I hit another low moment that sparked me working on Pivot of where I realized, oh shoot, you know, now when I'm wondering what's next, and I need a creative pause and I want to take a sabbatical, there's no money coming in. All my income grinds to a halt. And that was incredibly stressful. So it's always those crisis moments that get me to then think my way into the next set of strategies to create more. Just

Jenny Blake

calm and ease so I don't freak out. And now we're here 11 years later.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, you know, the thing that I hear over and over and over, and I think it's kind of fitting that all the topics we could be talking about time is one of them. I would probably say in every single survey that I've ever sent to my email list, the number one obstacle that people cite as a lack of time. And

It's funny because there were times when I was just like, all right, you're full of shit. You're just making excuses. And then, you know, when one of our podcast guests, and it was a student workshop, my friend, Michelle Florenda, who's also been a guest here, showed up to our audience mastermind workshop and with her two babies, I was like, oh my God, I'm like, she's actually right. My advice is nonsense. Like this doesn't make sense. She actually does not legitimately have time. So for somebody who's in a situation where they're like changing

juggling toddlers, obviously that kind of mental free space is something that's very limited. So how, I mean, what's your advice to them? And I think that that'll make a perfect circle into talking about the new book.

Jenny Blake

Oh yeah, well, oh my goodness. I mean, I don't have kids and I so if you're a new parent I do think that there's a season of life that is dedicated to like in her case if it's twins Oh my goodness. I just can't even imagine the challenge of that. I think you there are seasons of life. There are maybe a few years where you go I am in survival mode. No, I can't read a lot of books right now. I don't have a lot of mental energy. I'm not getting the sleep I need, but I'm dedicated to getting these two little humans.

to the stage where they're eventually gonna go to preschool. And these four years, that is my focus. And at that point, it is survival mode. It is just get the basics of sleep and trying to trade off with your partner if you even have one and doing what you need for survival and also to be as present as possible with those kiddos. Like I think part of my conversation around time is not so much the quantity, but are we focused and in the zone and present and engaged when we are working and can we turn that off?

we're not working. I don't care whoever wants to work however much. I just want us to again break free of the boxes around that. Who says it needs to be Monday through Friday, nine to five. And so it's a little more permission as well. And I think what I noticed is, you know, I mentioned getting married and we had, we got a puppy, little German shepherd, right before the pandemic hit. So I had this trifecta of sort of getting used to being married, having a puppy.

pandemic, most of my income getting wiped out and I was freaking exhausted. And it made the principles of free time very vital to me in a crucial way that I didn't necessarily need to have when I was single and I wasn't trying to be present and take care of so many other beings in my life. You know what I was single just clacking away at my laptop in my studio apartment in Nolita. What is free time? Who cares? All the time was free.

I you know, I didn't it wasn't as much of an obsession. I wanted to I wanted to be healthy I wanted to like work less and I was even at that time I would leave in the middle of the day for yoga class. However, once I had more responsibilities and I'm the breadwinner for our family, I realized now I got to be really focused and really present and somehow nurture not just me, not just my business, but my partnership with my with our dog and with friends and family. And so it just all became

Jenny Blake

I don't know, it's like the complexity grew and the stakes grew.

Srini Rao

Hmm. So, okay, I have to ask you, like, this is honestly one of my personal fears just based on past experience. Like, you're, you know, a woman and you just said that you're the breadwinner. And I feel like as a guy, if I'm not like, I'm like, I'm going to have a very difficult time finding any girl who actually wants to date me. And my friends are like, you will find a girl. She's probably not going to be, you know, somebody your parents approve of. But, yeah, I'm just curious. Like, that narrative, I think is.

I don't know if it's just me, but I feel like a lot of guys actually feel that way. It's like, okay, I don't have my shit together, so there's no way I can even sustain or entertain the idea of a relationship.

Jenny Blake

Mm.

Jenny Blake

Yeah, see, it's such an interesting, we put so many constrictions on men in our culture and other cultures as well, even outside of the US. The way that I sort of thought about this, I realized, okay, I realized a couple things and I can just share my perspective and how I think about it. One thing I realized is I love business. I love it. And I want to run my business.

no matter what. And if anyone tried to tell me otherwise, they'd be gone. There is no scenario in which, oh, you know, the relationship comes first. If they try to give me an ultimatum that I couldn't work, it's them or the or my work, you know, within reasonable bounds. But I would just say my business is not going anywhere. So I'm not the traditional woman. And you're right. Like if it was someone your parents would approve of, I'm not the most domestic person. I don't love cooking. I don't.

love anything in the domestic sphere at all. I actually just am allergic to it. And so of course I figure out how to delegate and do things differently. However, I also realized in terms of the pressures on who has to earn what, if the tables were turned and a man said to me, you need to earn X, Y, Z or else I'm out of here, no matter what that number was, I would freak out. And it's just the way our society is set up that we somehow think it's okay to say,

I don't know, I guess I felt like if the, I do believe in a higher power and I was feeling like we will be provided for. Like who cares whose specific channel the money needs to come through? If we're in a partnership, I trust that we'll be provided for. For me, as a business owner, money is more of a creative question. Okay, shoot, now there's three of us. Like how do I scale? It always just keeps motivating me to get to the next level in my business.

So I take it as a creative challenge. But if someone said to me, oh, you're not earning six figures, I'm out of here. This isn't gonna work. I would feel that was such conditional love. So I do think those people are out there, but you're right. I think there would be some trade-offs. Like, you know, yeah, I'm just not gonna, I'm just not ever gonna be this like domestic princess that wears the big white dress on my wedding day. And I'm not trying to stereotype or do gender roles or anything like I.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Blake

Believe me, if you're listening and I have no disrespect, I think being if someone is a stay at home parent, that is the hardest job on earth and I respect it so much. So I'm not throwing anybody under the bus. I am just saying the roles that are sometimes expected of me having grown up as a woman in society, like I reject wholeheartedly and feel strong about it with no judgment to anyone else. It just does not suit my personality type.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

So what prompted you to want to write this book? Like, what was the impetus for this as a sort of natural follow-up to Pivot?

Jenny Blake

Yeah, pivot was really about helping people navigate what's next and just my mantra there if change is the only constant, let's get better at it. I felt like I was spinning and confused. I wanted to help people get clearer faster. Free time is really about optimizing what's now. So it's, I was thinking, you know, my love of systems, it was, it was really when I had transitioned on my team and I brought someone new on and I started to get all my operating principles out of my head and into a Google doc.

And I realized that my love of systems and software and automation and even delegation, it's not, sometimes people feel allergic at the word systems. What are systems for? Freeing up our time. And I think I feel so, what finally got me over the edge to write this book because I wasn't sure I was qualified to write it. You know, I don't know. I had been in business 10 years, but I'm not this like multi-millionaire, gazillionaire. I feel rich with time.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Jenny Blake

but not necessarily financially running some mega successful eight figure business. But I realized that a lot of those people are short on time. So that's kind of what motivated me is just I hate to see any of us buried by our work and our inboxes and notifications and all the talk now about how toxic social media or certain apps can be that are just gamifying our attention.

that really bothers me. Manutia, bureaucracy, I hate things that drain our precious life force and that's the impetus behind the books to help people do more of what makes them unmistakable just like you write about.

Srini Rao

Hmm.

Srini Rao

Nah.

Well, let's get into the concepts in the book. I mean, you basically give us this sort of three-part framework of align, design, and assign. And there's a quote that you open the book with, or not open the book with, but early on in the book, you talk about a key metric that's missing from PNL, which is time. And you say, allow me to introduce a new metric, the time to revenue ratio. Or if you prefer the time to profit ratio, these figures reflect the idea that we can optimize for revenue, ease, and joy at the same time. They're not mutually exclusive.

So where in the world did we even get the idea that they're mutually exclusive, first of all?

Jenny Blake

I think it's a lot of people have the thought that time is money. Therefore, if I work less time, I will earn less money. And Benjamin Franklin is the one who said time is money. And we just assume that is true. And on some level it is, you know, in a certain sense that especially if you are working for someone else. But as soon as you're if you're a business owner and you have time autonomy, that is not always a straight line. Just there is no reward for hard work.

Just because you work twice as long as another business owner does not mean you're going to earn twice as much. There is, again, there's no reward for a button seats time when you're a business owner. In fact, it's harder to work less because you need to put systems in place and be more focused and automate things and delegate. So it's actually quite hard to work less time. Where I want us to build awareness is if we hear somebody online talking about their seven figure business.

Nobody ever says how much time it takes them to get there. So first of all, are they even profitable? They might be earning seven figures, but it costs eight figures to get there. Like the early days of we work, you know, just burning millions of dollars every day. Okay. Next question is, okay, let's say you are profitable. And by the way, a business earning seven figures does not mean that the owner's take home pay is seven figures. They might be, they might have 10 team members and their take home pay is still. 150,000. Okay. Now within the 150,000.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah, well.

Jenny Blake

How many hours did you work? Did you see your family? Were you working around the clock on weekends? Were you always sending emails from your phone? Were your team peppering you with questions all the time? Like how happy was that owner with the level of time it took to earn that and the level of complexity on their team? Because another thing I realized is I don't love managing people. I'm okay at it, but the fewer team members, the better. Yeah, I think you and I have a lot in common in this regard. Yeah.

Srini Rao

I can relate.

Srini Rao

Yeah, which is why I don't like meetings. I'm just like, even but my community manager, I'm like, I literally, I have to tell people that on my team when we're meeting, like I have a community manager Angela, and sometimes I'll be like, Angela, my attention span is done, you need to wrap this up. And I'm like, Wow, I have the luxury of saying that I was like, I don't have the attention span to continue with this, you need to make this like a five minute meeting now.

Jenny Blake

me either.

Jenny Blake

I mean, way to be direct. I know we do a lot asynchronously. That's why I love, again, systems documentation. And I've even started, I have this new system I developed for email where I auto tag messages with where in our email guide the answer lives. So I'm like preempting questions that would come to me just by automatically labeling emails with where to go to understand how to handle that. And stuff like that is just, I just constantly want to eliminate.

demands on my time and attention. And my thing with my team is I just hate to be on video. So this is why I love podcasting as well. And if anyone ever schedules a video call, I just immediately write back and say, any chance we can do phone? It's too tiring.

Srini Rao

Hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, it's funny. We did an episode about this title, Optimizing for Laziness, because my friend Gareth has built a seven figure business where he helps large companies automate processes. And I remember the first time he showed me, everything you got from me regarding this interview, completely automated. I didn't do any of that manually. But let's talk about this line framework where you have three subcategories underline, which are values, energy, and strength. Expand on those for me.

Jenny Blake

Align is about, is often realigning that wherever, so the central diagnostic, if you're trying to create more free time is to look at where are you in friction and where are you in flow. Friction are areas that are making you uncomfortable. You're feeling dragged down. They're draining. You're procrastinating. You dread something. That's friction. Like you discussed being too long on a long call or being on video has friction for me. So Align is saying, well, why is this important at all?

Like in your case, can we drop this meeting altogether? And if not, well, let's get aligned around what are our values for meetings in general? What are our values? What are we trying to achieve together? What are our strengths? Like, how do we work best? And then where does your energy come from? So for you, Shrini, it's like what energizes you and what drains you. And so the aligned stage is being more mindful before we optimize anything. Should we be doing this at all?

And if so, how do we really get it aligned? So for example, we've talked about writing books, we've talked about running courses, and we've talked about podcasting. In my opinion, looking at from the outside and what you've shared with me even offline, podcasting is the most aligned thing that you do. It just aligns with your strengths, it aligns with your energy, it aligns with your goals. Probably podcasting and memming seem like they're the most joyful and those are the ones that.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Well, each feeds the other, so they're kind of interrelated.

Jenny Blake

Yes, absolutely.

Srini Rao

So let's talk then about the design component of this, because this is what really struck me. And there's a lot of things in here in terms of how you build things.

But there's one other thing I want to talk about and that was this idea of imperfection. One of the things that you say in the book is when I create workshops or online courses, I purposely ship them half baked so that I can gather feedback, serve me and coming audience and answer those specific questions the moment and not procrastinate via perfectionism by trying to create the most beautiful course that ever lived. If I waited for that moment, given my skills, energy and interest, I would not have a course at all. So many people fall into that trap, myself included.

And I, you know, it's funny because I finally realized, oh, yeah, I can just create version 2.0 of whatever this course is. Like when I created the mem course, the first version was kind of like, OK, it's out and it was OK. And then I recreated it and it was a thousand times better.

Jenny Blake

Yeah, this is where I talk about where's the cookie dough in your business. Sometimes the cookie dough is more joyful and tastes better than the cookies themselves that are fully baked. And so yeah, the cookie dough around course creation and I have, we can put it in the show notes and an article on rapid course creation that I'm not convinced that students need all the polish. I think we assume if you're a content or course creator, you assume that people want you to have the

best videos and the best lighting and the best graphics and the best editing. And I'm just not convinced that that's true. Or for, I think for a lot of people, there's diminishing returns on the effort, energy cost, et cetera, that it would take to create that. And especially with video, it's extraordinarily hard to then go in and update if that content gets out of date. So what I'm talking about here, and I'll just give you an example. I'm not running this at the moment, but I taught a one week heart of podcasting course.

I had not created the course, but I did the enrollment and I, with the enrollment, I did a pre-survey. What are you most excited to learn about? And I had the five modules, one for each day. And I said, what is your biggest question about module one? Biggest question about module two, three, four, five, and so on. So when people registered, they told me their biggest question or challenge. So then as I built each day's material, I was building it exactly for what this cohort of students most wanted to know.

And it wasn't fancy, but it was in the moment and it was totally bespoke to what was on people's mind. And I don't think they cared at all that I didn't have all the bells and whistles. They wanted the information. To me, a course, a book, a podcast is about transformation. It's not, yes, things like masterclass with a lot of polish can be exciting and fun to watch, but I know myself, when I buy video courses, they just sit unused in my computer. I would rather listen to an audio course.

Certainly, here's the text you requested: ---

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Blake

and listen on the go and listen at double the speed, then feel like I was stuck sitting watching something. So I kind of also give myself permission to create what I would want to consume.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I mean, there's also been a lot of criticism of Masterclass not actually leading to any outcomes. It seems to be more entertainment than it does actual education.

Jenny Blake

Yeah.

Jenny Blake

Right. Some of them are better than others. I really like the Sarah Blakely one and Chris Voss. He's his was great on negotiation. So it depends. Yes, it can be hit or miss. And then you don't want hit or miss and you've spent a gajillion dollars in half a year or a year. And then the disappointment of like, and then nobody enrolls. And then while you're still trying to build up enrollment, it gets out of date. I mean, that's a nightmare. So I was also raised in the school of Google. Launch and iterate, be scrappy.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

One.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Oh, we've had...

Jenny Blake

And we were always looking over the fence at Microsoft with like their really long development schedules. And I don't know, it just fits my personality as well. It's just ship imperfectly.

Srini Rao

Yeah, well, it's funny because we had Alberto Savoia here, who is the former director of innovation at Google. And his whole thing was build the right product. And it was kind of amazing. Like, when you go through that framework, how much faster you can build things. One thing I want to talk about is pricing, because you actually say in the book that when you talk to a lot of business owners, one of the things that basically just creates a time suck is the fact that they price their products and services too low. And I just kind of remember reading the thing to myself.

Jenny Blake

Yeah, I think there's a lot of advice out there where people will just willy-nilly say, oh yeah, double your rates. And there's nothing to substantiate that. So I think it has to be coincident with the value you offer. But on the whole, if you've been doing your craft for a few years and you truly become an expert at it and you have experience and you have wisdom and you're good at what you do and you create tremendous value for your clients. At that point, I find a lot of people

more than not are undercharging. And if you don't charge enough, you will always be short on time because you will have to fill more proverbial slots in your calendar. Or even if it's not service delivery, if you charge too low for things, you just have to work so much harder. And the flip side of that, something that's been on my mind lately is platform size. I'm not on social media and I know maybe my platform could be bigger, but I choose to stay very focused on the channels that I do like.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

But I realize when it comes to something like book launching, the people who build up a huge platform, they might do the same activities as me. I might not have done anything quote wrong, but if you launch with a bigger platform, you will just have exponential outsize returns versus someone like me doing all the same activities. I might not see nearly those results and it comes back to platform size. So I think that goes in parallel with pricing.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Blake

And platform size can also help you command bigger prices because you have more demand that you can generate.

Srini Rao

Yeah, AKA James Clear. If that's a word.

Jenny Blake

Oh my goodness. Yes. Right. Like if I did all, yeah, exactly. And he did a really good job of building up his newsletter list before his book launched. Yep. Yeah.

Srini Rao

Oh, I know, we have the same literary agent. I know all the numbers. I think it was 6,000 pre-orders the day he announced the book. It was a guaranteed New York Times bestseller. I mean, he wrote a great book, but that also plays a huge role. Because there are plenty of people who write great books who don't get nearly that level of success. And there are a lot of shitty books on the New York Times bestseller list just because people have big platforms.

Jenny Blake

That's incredible. Right?

Jenny Blake

Yeah, it's true. And again, you or I might do all the same. We might do quote all the right things. Now, at that point, I also try to just trust the process and trust that if a book is meant to find its way in the world, it will. And I think the measure of any book, and I do think Atomic Habits has this, but somebody has to put it down and tell their friend. If you write a book that then you if you don't create a great product that really

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Jenny Blake

changes somebody's life, then they're going all the marketing, all the launch efforts in the world. You could do everything. You could throw all the money you have at it and it still will not have legs because people are going to put it down and they're not going to tell their friend. But for the little smaller creators out there, I do believe that if the product is good and people put it down and they tell a friend, that's what gives something word of mouth longevity.

Srini Rao

Totally.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I mean, I always like I think that my editor has always been in the Ryan Holliday approach. It's kind of OK, but this book might not see the light of day now. But if it's a perennial seller, it'll even gradually spread because there's a lot of books in the New York Times with seller list. A lot of people don't know this. A lot of those books didn't become popular until years after they were published.

Jenny Blake

Yes, even Malcolm Gladwell's tipping point, as I learned in a masterclass, it was two years later that book. I know, right? Exactly. And then it found it. I'm curious for you just selfishly to ask you a question with podcasting. Do you find podcast growth? I think is also very interesting because just like you and I was blogging, we got in early, but then now there's more and more shows professionally done big studios.

Srini Rao

How ironic, considering the subject of the book.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Jenny Blake

Podcast growth is another one that seems like you just need listeners to tell a friend. But I wonder if you found other strategies.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I mean, I know. I mean, to be very candid, like so it's funny because there's this sort of misconception for podcasters where they're like, oh, I'm just going to interview these really well-known people and they'll share my interviews and the podcast will grow. And I'm like, yeah, you're an idiot. I had that idea when we started and I realized that was not true. It was always going to be the listeners who caused our.

audience to grow. And that's from that point forward. That was actually why I was like, I will never let fame or status be a criteria. And if any publicist ever tries to pull status on me, I'm like, yeah, you've just gotten yourself banned and every client you're pitching is going to be banned from this point forward. Like somebody people have tried that and even my own publisher has tried that and I was like, are you guys are out of your minds? You really think I'm going to negotiate with you? I was like they had a really well-known author who you know, I won't name.

Jenny Blake

Mm.

Srini Rao

And they're like, this person only has 40 minutes. And I was like, great. Wish them good luck with the book launch. We don't need them. And 20 minutes later, like we found an hour slot in the calendar. I was like, that's bullshit. There was an hour slot in the calendar. You just thought you could pull rank on me.

Jenny Blake

Oh.

Jenny Blake

So when you say poll status, you mean making requests of you that are outside of your parameters just because of who they are, the guests they have. Yep.

Srini Rao

Yeah, because somebody has status. Yeah, which I will literally never do. Like I've told people I was like, I don't care if you're Oprah or the Dalai Lama. You know how we always say the United States doesn't negotiate with terrorists. The unmistakable creative doesn't negotiate with podcast guests and especially book publicists.

Jenny Blake

You tell them I love it. I love it. And then that and that's so important to keep the integrity and the standards of your show This is your show you set the rules and Exactly. I think it's very empowering to be able to say Well, great. No problem. Good luck with the launch like not to feel beholden for that

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah, well, we're I think that you and I are in that sense, like we're kind of like unquestionable is the anomaly of the podcast world because we started long before everybody else did. We grew slower and we're still smaller. And to your point, like word of mouth. And so for me, I realized at a certain point, I was like, OK, the one thing that I can control is my commitment to the craft. That's it. You know, everything else is kind of if it's meant to be, it's meant to be.

Jenny Blake

Yes, yes, commitment to the craft, commitment to learning, to your vision, your process. And it is an interesting creative tension I find because I want to have the same thing, you know, like the only thing I can control is the content I create and trust the process and I don't know if you get this way too, but and there are times where I go and yet it's like.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Why we're not.

Jenny Blake

that next, if I could hit the next set of download stats I could earn, I can, you know, I do have visions of trying to simplify my business where I can just earn a living from the podcast or something that's extraordinarily difficult. Like only, exactly, you're laughing. Exactly, because it's only like 3% of shows, I think, that can do that.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I mean, I will. The thing is that I think that people like if you become more cynical, I was like, no, I think I've become much more realist. I'm not the sort of delusional optimist that I was. Like to this day, I still remember this conversation. I think I talked to Eric Barker about this yesterday. Like I remember this was right after I finished business school. My dad tells me not everybody can be the next Steve Jobs. And I'm just like pissed off thinking, oh, you're not supporting. And then.

I go and look through my list of articles and like, holy shit, I wrote an article titled You're not going to be the next Steve Jobs Oprah or Beyonce. But you know, I mean, I'm wary of outliers as role models because I've just been exposed to so many different points of view that I tend to actually, you know, look at things in terms of much more realistic, you know, perspective in terms of, okay, what are you actually good at? So that actually, you know,

Jenny Blake

Hehehe

Srini Rao

it makes a perfect transition to a sign. And this is something that I wanted to ask you about because I still have not figured this out, ironically. So as far as our podcast goes, I've got this down to an art form in terms of systems. I literally record the interview and I'm done. I don't have to do anything. I have figured that out for blog posts. So I'm curious, you talk about a tiny team and the chief everything officer. So.

When you talk about doubling how you delegate, I wanted to use a tactical example purely for selfish reasons, because I need you to tell me how you do this because I'm trying to figure this out. Because the one thing I still have not figured out how to do is like, okay, I want to be done writing this thing and just call it a day. So how do you do that? How do you personally do that?

Jenny Blake

Yes, I love this.

Jenny Blake

Okay, well, so I love that we're bringing up this example. And this is why the assigned stage exists at all is because I find that it's the most challenging one and our inclination is not to assign things. It's just, oh, it'd be faster, easier if I do it myself. What's interesting about the case study you just brought up is that you have actually solved this on the podcast side, which is far more complex than blogging. So I'm wondering, tell me a little bit about your blog process and where like...

Srini Rao

Yeah, exactly.

Srini Rao

Okay, yeah, I'll give it to you.

Jenny Blake

Yeah, you told me the vision all you do is write the post and then the fairies take it away

Srini Rao

Well, you know, it's funny, right? Because like I know that I have it down for the podcast. And I actually like after I finished reading your book, I started trying to map out, you know, OK, what are the steps for the blog? Because my friend, Gareth, he built so everything he did for us is all built on air table back end. So like the email you got for this interview, when you are notified that this goes live, I'm not going to write that email. You'll get literally all the promotional images are going to be created through automation. The email that you get will be automated.

So one of the things that he was very clear on with me is like he's like I need you to write this down step by step like you're explaining it to the biggest idiot, you know and Because that's the thing that people don't realize about automation is like you literally have to imagine that your tools are the stupidest person, you know, because most of these tools even though Yeah, well

Jenny Blake

Yeah, or someone brand new to the business that has never seen a single thing. Yes.

Srini Rao

That's your PC way of saying it. That's the difference between you and me. I'm like, no, assume the person you're explaining this to is an idiot. And in this case, the idiot is the tool that you're using because most of these tools can only really understand if then language, right? What's like if then yes, no, I mean, that's the there. I think it was Gary Klein in his book about AI said he's like, just assume you're dealing with a digital idiot savant. So as far as the blog post goes, so I write it in mem.

Jenny Blake

Oh yeah. Yep.

Srini Rao

This is one challenge I've been having with them is because it's filled with all these bidirectional links, like I have to get it into another format where so, okay, so I write the post after that. It needs to be proofread. It needs to be optimized for SEO based on a certain keyword. We use a tool called Story Chief so that it automatically publishes to Medium and our blog and then it has to be sent to the newsletter. So you got to put in images, optimize a few things, make sure the headings are right. And even adding links. This is something that has driven me.

absolutely insane because no tool does this within the tool. Like I wish notion didn't do this. Mem doesn't do this. Like I want to be able to just, you know, add an external link and Google it naturally. Google Docs does that where if you actually highlight text, I don't know if you knew this, but if you highlight text in Google Docs, you can link to any post just by searching for it. So it's like, OK, I know my blog because, you know, this is all stuff that's in my brain. So that part I can do faster. But from there, it's like, all right, I want to be done with it after that.

Jenny Blake

Okay, so tell me then you write the post in mem and it has these cross links. So yes, someone will need to kind of pull out and re-reference some of your archives, right? That are in medium. But you don't necessarily need to do it. I mean, so what's the part that you're getting tripped up on in terms of not being able to hand off?

Srini Rao Certainly, here's the continuation of the text: ---

Jenny Blake

And then I would say, maybe you're not assigning this role to the most entry level stupid as in your language, stupid as a person. Maybe you're actually, yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, for the automation parts, I think that you, certain things, for example, when you use something like Zapier to say, OK, once this article is in this folder, send a trigger and assign a task and click up to our VA to go ahead and get it ready to publish.

Jenny Blake

Yes, and it sounds to me like the automations are not what are stopping you. That's, I mean, you sound like you're good at those. Yeah.

Srini Rao

No, honestly, it's literally up. It's literally honestly, based on you know, what I saw, I was like, this is just a lack of documentation that's stopping me.

Jenny Blake

Yes, and a certain je ne sais quoi of what makes you you. Like I had a really, it took me a very long time, six years, to hand off audio editing fully for a close listen audio edit for my podcast because I just was so picky about... yeah.

Srini Rao

I can. Well, I'll tell you, I honestly, I don't think that that's a bad thing. So I edited the first 400 episodes to this day. I think that was a blessing in disguise. And I'll tell you why. I actually do think newbie podcasters should edit their own interviews because it for one thing I realized was that it forced me to go back and listen to every single interview.

And that was a gift because I started to notice patterns. I was like, oh, this is something I don't do well. This is something I could do better. I always tell people who are starting out, I was like, it's completely counterintuitive. It goes against every good business principle from like E-Myth. But I think if you're early, you should absolutely edit your own podcasts.

Jenny Blake

Yeah, you can learn so much. I really enjoyed it. Just very time consuming. And I realized I was starting to drop the ball on other things. What I would also say is, for example, with this team that I brought on for show notes, sometimes the show notes would just be a total miss in my mind when we were first coordinating how to work together. And at that point, the question is, is this necessary? This piece that is so special that I'm asking them to read my mind on, can we just change the parameters a little bit? Can we?

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Jenny Blake

shift it is let's say in your case if the image is reaching a point of diminishing returns of like getting the right image and the feedback on the image it's like do you need one at all are medium readers gonna like collapse if there's not an image with your posts no so

Srini Rao

Yeah, it's like Greg, Greg McEwen's thing, right? Like, no. Yeah, well, and it's like Greg McEwen's thing, right, where he's like, how am I making this harder than it needs to be? Like, I am always looking for steps to eliminate in every process.

Jenny Blake

Right. Yes. So I do think that you do the best you can to document like even during our launch, I had a team working with me. Oh, okay. Okay.

Srini Rao

Hey, Jenny, hold on, my headphones died. Give me just a sec.

Srini Rao

Alright, cool. We're good.

Jenny Blake

Okay, and then just on timing, I just want to tell, do you know about what time we'll wrap up? Oh, okay, no rush. I'll tell them I'll be a little late anyway, so no rush. Okay, I'll start. I know where to start back if you are ready.

Srini Rao

We're getting close.

Srini Rao

Yeah, go for it.

Jenny Blake

I even had a team working with me on this book launch and they came up with the emoji set for our launch. And what's so funny about that is sounds silly and it sounds like way too micro detailed, but like a black heart wouldn't be on brand for me. I don't like black hearts. I don't even like blue hearts. I like them red or you know, certain emoji are the brand, the emojis of the brand. I remember someone asked me once, you know, how do I feel about swearing when they're drafting copy?

And I care. I actually don't want swearing in my newsletter. Like it's just it's weird. It's just but it's something that I have. And or I don't like too many emoji. I like one strategically placed emoji. So there are little nuanced things that we care about as creators that I do think are part of our special sauce, you know, and it is important to maintain some level of that. And then so I think I think that's why something like your blog it's a little hard to let go of because.

It hurts when it's not done well and then it gets discouraging and you're like, Oh, I'll just do it myself. And there is such a curve, an onboarding curve. But my latest thing that's not even in the book, because I kind of solved it after the book came out is train the system. Then the person I realized I was investing all this effort in training people. And I needed to train the system to get smarter. So everything you were describing about the automations that could come into the blog process.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Blake

I think that's where it gets really interesting is like what you've honed for the podcast you've already done. Certainly, here's the text you requested: ---

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm. Wow. Well, this has been really, really amazing and insightful. I mean, I think that I think what I really liked about the way that you structured this book is that it was incredibly tactical. Like I came away from it like thinking, I know a lot about time management and building systems, and I still learned a lot from it.

Jenny Blake

Well, that's high, high compliment coming from you because I do know how much you think about all of this and that was, that's really my goal. It's we, we don't really need more inspiration, you know? It's like, we just need to crowdsource with each other. How do we all navigate this wild west that we're in with always on communication and all these apps and devices. And I think we're all trying to figure it out together. So I'm really happy to hear that ashrini and it's been such a joy just watching you and your process. And

Just seeing where you've taken this show and your books and your courses, it's a real treat to just get to follow your journey from near and far.

Srini Rao

Thanks. Well, I have one final question for you, which I know you've heard me ask. And that's how we finish every episode. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Jenny Blake

Sorry.

Jenny Blake

first thing that comes to mind is soul. Like, what is your soul calling? What is your, what is deep, deep within? What is your soul saying to you? How, where, how, where is your soul guiding you? You know, just, I think what makes somebody unmistakable is this inner flame. Michael, my husband, a mentor said to him once, protect your flame. And I see our soul, our, our

unique gifts as this flame that if we protect it and nurture it and grow it, that is what makes somebody truly unmistakable is when you just see them. And I love your word for it, unmistakable just to see them in that beautiful pocket of unique expression.

Srini Rao

Amazing. Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story, your wisdom and your insights with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you, the book and everything else you're up to?

Jenny Blake

Likewise, thank you for all the great questions and thank you everybody for being here listening. You can learn more at itsfreetime.com and look for a free time with Jenny Blake wherever you're listening to this podcast.

Srini Rao

Amazing. And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.