Transcript

Karena Kilcoyne

#UC-Transcript

Srini Rao:

Karina, welcome to the Unmistakable Creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Karena Kilcoyne:

Thank you for having me on. I'm excited to be here.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, it is my pleasure here. You have a new book out called Rise Above the Story. And what I love most about this book is the fact that you backed all of this up with real science and evidence, which probably speaks to the lawyer in you. Because so often people write books like this, you know, based on anecdotal evidence. But before we get into the content of the book, based on what I've read and what I learned, I wanted to start by asking you what is one of the most important things that you learned from one or both of your parents?

that have influenced and shaped where you've ended up and what you've ended up doing with your life and career.

Karena Kilcoyne:

I'll start with my father. I'm sure we'll get into this later, but my father went to the federal penitentiary when I was young and it really impacted me, of course. But one of the things that I learned from him before he left and during the time that we had together was my father had an impeccable work ethic, working and earning his way and

Karena Kilcoyne:

and in finding his way in the work world was crucial to him, partially based on his own story of survival. But that was definitely something that I learned from him that carries me through because that, as anybody out there knows who's written a book, you have to have severe work or a serious work ethic and dedication to get a book done and out into the world. So definitely I would say that from my father.

From my mother, I would say I learned a lot about what I didn't want to be. I just saw her and witnessed her struggle so much that it hit me at such an early age of ways I wanted to shift my life and live differently and feel life differently than she did.

Srini Rao:

Yeah. Well, I know that you had, you know, by all accounts, a tumultuous upbringing, not exactly an environment that was designed to make somebody thrive. And yet you, you know, finished law school at the age of 24, like you overcame what are arguably incredibly adverse circumstances. And I'm curious, like, what do you think it is that enabled that despite the sort of

you know, tumultuous environment you were raised in, how you were able to transcend that, even with all the stuff that you write about in the book, which we'll get into, to accomplish what you did. Because there's so many people I think could have ended up in a completely different position in those same circumstances, and they do.

Karena Kilcoyne:

Oh, you have, yes, you're so right about that. And I will tell you that I've had the opportunity over the last couple of years to meet people who have come from similar circumstances and see what their life is like now and the deep trauma they still carry from it. And it does not, it does not go unnoticed to me that, that could have been my path as well.

I would say that I have as a person a deep sense of resilience. And I think that came from my tumultuous childhood early on and being in survival mode. And it literally became this goal to escape, right? To get out of where I came from. And I was blessed.

with a love of learning and a capability, a certain capability in school and, you know, with education. And I saw education as my way out. And I saw that early on. And I grasped and held on to that and, you know, really focused on learning no matter what was going on in my household. And I will tell you that while that was good in helping me escape, I like to...

to say this and have people understand who I was at the time that you mentioned of me going to law school. You know, there was so much, so much trauma that went on in my early life and I felt emotionally split into this young girl who felt so unworthy of so many things, including love and a childhood. And then this maven.

almost just hell bent on getting the hell out of where I came from. And so I chased this amount of success. Like I think a lot of people listening can relate to this. I thought that if I went out there and I just succeeded and I checked all the boxes and I passed two state bar exams and I did this trial or practiced this kind of law that somehow I would magically make myself feel better. So while that didn't work for me, spoil alert,

Karena Kilcoyne:

It was a way though that enabled me to get out of where I was from. So while seeking that external validation wasn't the answer for me, it definitely fueled me and getting out of the situation I was in.

Srini Rao:

Yeah. Well, I mean, I know from reading the book that you were an exceptional student. And one thing I wonder is if that's not modeled for you, where did you pick it up? Because I'm I now that I've talked to so many people on this podcast, I'm much more aware of how privileged the circumstances I grew up in were like, you know, my parents weren't super rich. Well, my dad's a college professor. There's no question of whether there's going to be food on the table. Any of that. Like it was all kind of in a lot of ways.

we needed was handed to us. We weren't spoiled, but you get what I'm saying, right?

Karena Kilcoyne:

For sure. Yeah. There was just a comfort level. So, and I love this concept too, to talk about this with people, because I think when you have what you're saying, you're right, your basic needs met, it is this, you know, it goes back to the Maslow, right, like hierarchy of needs. And so when you come from a space, in a family space where your basic needs are met, you have the one up because you're able to then reach these other levels.

And for me and other people out there, it wasn't that way. So, you know, you're kind of coming from, coming from behind a little bit, right? And you're making up for it in the ways you can, when you develop enough of a self-awareness to understand you don't want to stay in survival mode your whole life. But to answer your question about where did this come from or how did this happen when it wasn't modeled to me, I will tell you that my parents, for wherever they, they came from.

They also believed in education. So when my father was around before he went to prison, my father was a hardworking businessman and he made a lot of money. And he did a cash business, which was a whole other interesting situation. We didn't have checks or believe in banks or anything like that. But there was without a doubt this expectation that...

school was going to be important. And I think that came from them believing and wanting me not to live the life that they did. So when there was money in my earlier life, it was schooling and it was extracurricular activities and there were classes and things like that. So there was a point when those things were provided to me and expected of me, even though they couldn't model it for me.

That's what they wanted for me. And then it was this downturn of when my father went to prison that shifted us into poverty and changed a lot of the trajectory of my life in those years.

Srini Rao:

Yeah. How old were you when your father went to prison? And I do want to spend some time talking about the criminal justice system at large, because I know that you are a criminal defense attorney. But I wonder because I've talked to a lot of people who have been incarcerated. And nothing like seems more terrifying to me than that. Like, I remember talking to, I if I remember correctly, it was a guy who went from prison to Harvard, which was the craziest story I'd ever heard. But

Karena Kilcoyne:

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao:

I told him I was like, to me, I'd be like, all right, I might as well just kill myself. I'm going to go to prison. He's like, yeah, but the thing is, he said the world that I was brought up in condition to he was like, it was not really that much of an adjustment to, you know, assimilate to that environment because it was similar to the one that I was already in. So I wonder what changes in a family dynamic when you have somebody like as important as a father figure get incarcerated. Like, I mean, I can only imagine what that does. But

What do we not see in the documentaries, in the books that we read? Like what are the things that we don't get exposed to about the reality of this from the media?

Karena Kilcoyne:

There is a lot that, that went on that I wanted to include in the book. But, you know, as I say, in the acknowledgements that my editor was, you know, with a keen eye and we left a lot of good things on the cutting room floor. But I think a lot of that is what you're talking about right now. And that was just what happened. So what happened to me was that my mother wasn't able to handle the stress and the responsibility of what happened.

She had suffered from mental health issues long before my father went to prison, but they were manageable because there was money and there wasn't, you know, there wasn't this, this poverty situation that we were in. So, but when he left, it really, it really was something that she wasn't able to cope with. And, you know, growing up where I did in the time period I'm talking about, you know, this was, you know, the eighties. And

And that just wasn't, you know, people didn't see therapists. That wasn't something we did in the, in the culture that I grew up in. So my mother didn't really have any help and was never really ever diagnosed. But from what I remember witnessing and what I think about knowing what I know now, I would definitely say she had severe depression, anxiety, manic episodes. And so she checked out a lot, a lot, a lot, and, and would leave me to

to take care of things. You know, and my father's legal troubles started, it's hard for me to remember pinpointed exactly, but I don't know, I felt like around 10ish or so, 11, you know, the, the FBI was getting involved and I remember them surveilling our house and, and as all that started to evolve this pressure, this intense pressure, I remember of being in the house and my mom being so terrified and we'd be in the house.

you know, in broad daylight with all the curtains pulled because she was terrified of what, what they could see or what they were watching or what they knew. And, and, you know, when my dad was at home, she was so terrified. And then after he left, it got worse and she would check out and disassociate. And she spent days at a time in bed, just unable to function. And what that created was role reversal. We, I mean, we, I switched roles with her. I took, I took care of her.

Karena Kilcoyne:

I took care of, at the time I had a younger brother and a younger sister, and I took care of them. And later on she would have my half brother and I would take care of him as the second parent when that man left us. And it was a lot for me to take on and it was this role reversal. And then what it did to my father, what you don't see, what people I don't think necessarily

I knew my father and my father had his faults. Don't get me wrong, but there was something about my father that even still to this day, I see him as this strong, tall, strong, you know, wide shoulders, just could take on anything, could handle anything, hardworking, independent. I just see him as all these things. And when he went to prison...

his whole personality shifted. He would call us in desperation to the point where my mother would take the phone off the hook. You know, back in the day when he had the corded phones and she would take the phone off the hook and put the receiver down until you heard that terrible blaring, you know, that let you know the phone was off the hook and then it would stop. And I would think to myself, dad's calling us. He needs to talk to somebody. We can't talk to him. And she didn't want to talk to him because we were out of money and she had spent the money he left.

And when he called, he was wanting to know, you know, who she was sleeping with and how much money we had left. And I remember visiting him and that shift in my mind of seeing him in that way, just incarcerated and behind bars and wearing something that I'd never seen him wear before. I remember my, my father always cared about how he looked. He took great pride in what he wore.

looking a certain way. And, and I remember sitting there, seeing him like that. And just, even at that age, having so much compassion for him. Again, he had his faults and he and my mother had a very violent relationship. But as somebody, you know, who was a child and had a relationship with him, it, it really impacted me to see him in that way. And so withdrawn

Karena Kilcoyne:

from, from the world and so desperate to cling to what he had. And I would just share with you one more story that impacted me so greatly. And that is when he got out and he came and found us because my mother hadn't been communicating with him or allowing us to communicate with him. And he got out of prison and he came to our house and he had nothing. And he even said that, he said,

Karena Kilcoyne:

on my back. And they were the clothes that I remember him wearing when he left for prison. And it was just so striking to me. And then my mother saying to him, you know, we have nothing to give you. And in true, in true sense of, of that spirit I was talking about earlier about my father being so hardworking, he had to start from scratch again and build his life up again. And

those are things that I think to the family dynamic and to the person who is incarcerated that happens psychologically and mentally and emotionally that people don't always think about or witness.

Srini Rao:

Yeah. You know, I remember we had a guest named Chris Redlitz here who's a venture capitalist who had started a tech incubator inside of San Quentin prison. So I got to go. And I remember the day that we went, I saw somebody getting released after 20 years. And I was thinking to myself, like, what if there's nobody here to pick this guy up? Like, then what? I want to bring back a clip from a conversation I had with Sean Askenazi about the justice system at large,

I'm really interested to hear your take on this, given your background. Take a listen.

There's absolutely no question that those people who are poor are going to end up with a worse outcome than if they had the resources to hire a private criminal defense lawyer. And not to mention the fact that the laws are even written in such a way that those of color will be.

treated differently when it comes to sentencing, and we'll spend longer times in jail. And so the system is broken all the way around. So it's broken when it comes to the right to counsel and those lawyers that are available to people who can't afford a lawyer, who have a constitutional right to a lawyer. So preparation to trial.

That's broken. The appellate system as it relates to people in poverty is broken. And of course, those people who are incarcerated, if they're poor, they're just going to be there longer. Period.

Srini Rao:

So I'm really interested to hear one, your take and your reaction to that, given your background and what you've done, but not only that, you've also had the experience of having a family member go through this.

Karena Kilcoyne:

Yes. And this is something I could talk about for hours. There's so many parts of that clip that you shared where he's correct. And looking at it just from the legal system, I can tell you that when I passed the bar exam, I went and got on the court appointed list. There was part of me who was this, still this broken little girl who wanted to save people.

And I went down and got on the court appointed list because I wanted to defend people and I wanted to, you know, that was kind of, it just in me from, you know, my experience with my father. So having this drive to go down there and do this and, and represent people who couldn't, who couldn't pay for a lawyer. And, and I remember doing that because I wanted the experience. I have to tell you, it was some of the best work I'd ever done, even though I was inexperienced and learning.

But to give you just an understanding of that, so in the justice system, there are certain states or counties that do it a certain way and others do it another way. So some there is the public defender's office where I happened to practice law. They had this where anybody can go and do court appointed work. And then they would pay you, I don't know, $30 an hour or something like that to represent somebody who needed counsel. And so I've had that experience and I've also been on the other side of it.

Right? And my father went to the federal penitentiary, which was a different experience, of course, than going to a state penitentiary. But I will tell you that I do believe that there's a lot that's right in what he said in your clip, because here's the thing. Seeing this now also from my perspective, from, of course, my young me perspective, but also now somebody's on the other side as an adult and somebody who's written a book about healing from trauma.

I will tell you that I look back on it and I can see so many clients I had in the revolving, you know, the revolving door of the justice system was because they carry around this unresolved trauma. And there's no outlet for them to figure it out, to get help, to understand. There's no, there's no window of let's become self-aware. Let's shift out of this. That is this.

Karena Kilcoyne:

constant sense of survival and making decisions based on survival. And that's all you know. And when you're, when you're trying to earn $20 to buy food for your family and, and you, and you weren't offered or afforded an education and that wasn't something that your parents encouraged and you get caught up in this poverty loop, yes, you are, like I was saying earlier,

in this, you know, hierarchy of needs, unfortunately, that's where these people come from. And it is so unfair and the system absolutely is broken. And what I will also share with you is something that I learned is that one in five people have a parent who's been incarcerated or a caretaker. And I mean, that statistic is interesting because for so long, you know, you care, I carried around a lot of shame about that.

Srini Rao:

Wow.

Karena Kilcoyne:

about my father being a felon and being the daughter of a felon and somebody who went to prison. And it's actually more prevalent than we know and that we actually think about and what and how that impacts the people and the generational transfer of trauma. So I see it from so many different angles, from the lawyer angle. Yes, there were definitely problems with, like you said, with sentencing, with, you know, the laws and all of that. But then there's also this human...

aspect, the psychological, mental aspect of what these people endure and how they get caught up in this. And I'll tell you what, this was the first time, you know, the book's called Rise About the Story and we know what is the story. It's your, your brain subconscious, emotional interpretation of what happened to you. And that's one of the first times I caught on about this idea of stories was by being a criminal defense lawyer and seeing so many clients.

go through the revolving door of the justice system, because they just, there's no real way out unless there's some eye-opening moment and an opportunity where somebody shows them some grace or they're afforded an opportunity that seems so natural for so many other people. So I definitely see it for sure.

Srini Rao:

Yeah.

Well, it's funny you mentioned story because with Joe Loya here who robbed 30 banks and then he ended up, you know, advising Piper Kerman on Orange is the New Black, became a talking head of the criminal justice system. And he spent a lot of time talking about changing the story and how that was kind of the thing that being put into solitary confinement did for him. There's one other thing you mentioned in the book that you defended murderers. And I remember asking Joe Loya about this. Like he said, you know, the thing that struck me about prison life, he said, you know,

the people who are the safest people to be around are the ones that are in there for life. And he said, you know, you come back to your cell and there's a Snickers bar on your pillow. He said, you know, who gives you those kinds of things? People in there for life. And he made a really interesting point. And I know Brian Stevenson also kind of referenced this in his book as well, Just Mercy. Where...

Joe Lloyd mentioned to me that, you know, somebody was there who had murdered another person in self defense. And he said, and we basically take this label, we call that guy a murderer. And he said he was a murderer for one day. And that's what we're going to identify him as for the rest of his life. But what I wonder about is like, I'm guessing you had clients who were clearly guilty. Like, is there a conscience issue or like a.

issue that occurs like when you're trying to defend somebody who more than likely has done something as horrible as murder another person, like what goes on mentally for you?

Karena Kilcoyne:

I was incredibly blessed to have three mentors when I got out of law school and passed the bar exam. I had law clerked for them and what they did was primarily murder cases. They did the trial work. They would do the appellate work. And I learned so much from them when I law clerked for them and then they would ask me on to second chair cases.

with them and I learned from the best, truly I did. And it's still something I look back on and I think that was just such an opportunity for me to learn. And they had such great insight about a lot of these things that you're talking about. And it just comes down to this idea for me that everybody's entitled to a defense. And while what we talked about earlier, the system's broken, it sure is. But listen, it's a lot better than what goes on.

and many other places in the world. And I firmly believe that everyone is entitled to not only a defense, but a good defense. And I didn't, I didn't have that issue, I guess I would say. Like there were moments of course, where you, you think like that would be, you know, not human to wonder or to think, but you really get to a place where you understand that there's good in what you're doing.

And I think that was a big shift for me that is some of the most important work that people can do is to do that, is to defend people who are charged with crimes because that is such a basic part of who we are as people and who we are as a country. And I think that when you understand that, you take much pride.

you take a lot of pride in what you're doing because you understand that there's a need for it and, and you really go home at the end of the day exhausted and maybe not like I did not sleeping so great because you want to make sure that you thought of everything you could possibly think of to help someone. But I really took a lot of pride in, in that phase of my life. And I, like I said, I am so thankful for those people who

Karena Kilcoyne:

mentored me in that time and what they taught me not only about the law, but about how you as a person carry that responsibility on your shoulders.

Srini Rao:

Yeah. Let's get into the book. One of the earliest things you say is, to the outside world, I was a pitcher of a well-adjusted success, but my overwhelming shame made me feel anything, but nothing in my life felt on course or meaningful because my life choices were filtered through my story of unworthiness, sorrow, and abatement. There were moments throughout my adult life when I believed that professional success would redeem me, but there wasn't enough external validation in the world to heal my deepest, oldest wounds. And as my false story of shame and abandonment

grew larger, my life grew smaller. And I noticed that theme of validation showed up multiple times throughout the book. And I don't think that is isolated to you. I think all of us to some degree have this sense of like, okay, external validation in the form of success will heal wounds. It'll make us be able to like deal with whatever shame we felt about things. Why is it that we as a culture are so

Despite knowing that, like I know this from having had all the conversations that I have with all the people that I've talked to, but there is absolutely this part of me that is still on some level seeking validation, probably from my parents.

Karena Kilcoyne:

Yeah. I mean, I wrote the book and I still have these moments where I think, what am I doing? Like, check, like, what am I doing right now? Like, what am I caring about? Why am I doing this? What is the purpose? And I would say that I think a big part of it is, is that we don't want to deal with the pain of why we're seeking it. So in my case,

I closed off all those parts of me because I did not want to unearth the original wounds, the trauma. I didn't want to do that. So to me, it felt like, well, if I keep running this way and I check all these boxes and I let everybody else know that I'm something and I'm smart and I'm successful, then I won't carry around this inner shame I have. That somehow that will just disappear because all these people will think I'm so great. But the trouble is, is that until you believe.

that you're great until you love yourself, until you give yourself grace and compassion. It doesn't matter what you do. And I think the other problem that we have is, is that we walk around the world as adults and we have no idea how to soothe ourselves. We get caught up in all of this, like as adults, we don't know how to do it. Sometimes we weren't taught and we didn't practice enough. We just don't know how to do it.

We seek external validation. We get on Instagram. We see how many people like my posts. What happened? We get on Netflix. Like there's so many things that just make us zone out. We drink too much. We eat too much. We have sex with the wrong people. Like there's things we do that we think, oh, this will make me feel better. Subconsciously we think that and they don't. And I think that's part of what it is. We're seeking some kind of comfort because we're looking for comfort. We want to feel better.

What I have experienced and I still work on to this day is that you don't do that by seeking it outside of yourself. You do it by finding and tuning into the inside you and how you're feeling and what you need to work through.

Srini Rao:

You say early on that in reality, trauma's pain is as unique as the individual experiences, depending on where the trauma registers on your personal spectrum, your ability to process emotions and whether you are more innately sensitive to the world around you, your pain may resonate even deeper. So this is something that I wondered about and we kind of danced around it earlier. People who have had nowhere near as significant trauma as yours or not come as like, and you lived in nearly as adverse circumstances,

have a response to trauma that is like way like, you know, out of whack in comparison, like it's not, it feels like it's not proportionate and stupid example, like I went off the deep end after a breakup that doesn't compare to what you've gone through. And I've always wondered like, why is it that, you know, a person can have a trauma that's not nearly as significant or like,

the magnitude is so much smaller and yet they have an experience or a response that is like as if somebody had a parent go to prison.

Karena Kilcoyne:

I like this topic and this is one of the things that I really want people to hear is that we are not here to compare trauma, right? You have every right to feel how you feel. And that's a big part of solving this puzzle is to honor that, to say, I am worth feeling what I feel and solving it. And so we can...

about this on another thing, but there's, you know, sometimes this, this victimhood aspect. But if we're just talking about how you're feeling the pain and, and what something, how something affects you versus how it affects me, that's not really what, what the human experience is about. The human experience is about feeling what you feel and honoring it. And I, and I'm sure that there is, and I go through this in the book.

is there's this also this concept of some of us are just more sensitive to the world around us based on our brain development, based on who our mother was, what was our in utero experience. You know, there are things that go on chemically to us and what we're able to process and handle. And a lot of my healing journey was not just about this mental emotional, it was also very physical about...

getting my nervous system back online and understanding that I didn't have to run around in chicken little mode, like everything was a disaster and chaos was happening all the time. Like there's always these, these moments in who we are and it, some of it comes because of where we came from. And some of our sensitivity is because we are still stuck in fight or flight. And there are just multiple facets of it. So I want people to, to understand and believe that.

are worthy of feeling how they feel and it doesn't matter if it was a breakup versus a parent went to prison, that impacts us all differently and can be just as momentous to you as something else was to me.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's get into the sort of what apparently is like a framework for rising above your story. And you talk about the first step as being acknowledgement. And you say that acknowledging our story is the first step to healing. If we wanna ultimately rise above our old pain, we must with unbashed mindfulness choose to, we can no longer rely on the default settings of our emotional brain that do not serve us.

acknowledging our stories done in two steps. First, we identify the origin of our story, the trauma that caused the emotional brain to seek safety. Second, we elevate our thoughts from the emotional brain to the thinking brain by using objective factual language to describe trauma and our story. So talk to me about the science of this, because I think that the part that makes me kind of laugh is like how objective are most of us about any of this? As a lawyer, I'm guessing like you have an ability to...

Karena Kilcoyne:

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao:

you know, phrase things objectively, but as a human, I'm guessing you're as, you know, susceptible to not being objective as the rest of us.

Karena Kilcoyne:

Oh, of course. Yeah. And I, listen, I catch myself still in all of this. And, and, but what I have, what I have nurtured in myself is the self-awareness of, of where it's coming from, where the story's coming from. So this idea, and it, it hit me during my healing journey when, you know, I was talking to several people or, and, you know, and reading the books I was reading and it, it hit me that when I framed it, you know, I put the book down, I think, what does that mean? And then I started to frame it.

Like a lawyer, like if I were in trial and, and somebody had to testify about being robbed, right? How would that go down? What would the person say? Right? Normally it's all just about getting the facts out. Where was I? What was I wearing? What street was I on? Was it dark? What time was it? You know, all these things, right? And setting the stage, the facts. And if somebody got up there to testify about being robbed and instead of listing the facts, they got up there and they started saying, Oh my God.

would not believe how stupid I was. I went out after midnight. I knew I shouldn't have gone over there. I was wearing my good watch and I don't even, I can't even comprehend like what I was thinking. How stupid am I? Right? That was, that would never be how you would testify. And everybody would object and da da. You'd have to rephrase and this and this and this. And, and I started to think about it. I thought, you know, it's actually an interesting way to think about your brain because there are definitely indeed the facts of what happened to you without a doubt.

And if we're talking about something where something like this happened to you, let's just say a crime of violence, there is one time in the timeline of life where indeed you were a victim and somebody was a perpetrator. But beyond that, you get to choose what label you wear and what label you carry around. And so there's this idea of laying out factually in your mind what happened, what were the circumstances.

And then there's this idea of the subjective story that your brain creates to keep you safe. Why does it do that? Because when you experience trauma, your body, your brain kicks off your fight or flight response. I distill the brain science in this book and I try to make it so simple for people. It can be very complicated and complex, but I try to make it so simple because I believe that you need to understand how your brain works if you want to heal. So...

Karena Kilcoyne:

just the way I break it down, it just happens to be two parts of your brain, your thinking brain and your emotional brain. When you experience trauma, your emotional brain fires off your fight or flight response. If those emotions surrounding your fight or flight response are not processed and they're instead suppressed, your brain continues to think that you are still in danger and it will create a story to keep you safe because your brain doesn't, your brain is wired first and foremost for survival.

your emotional brain, it's all it cares about. And so it will write a story to keep you safe. It doesn't want you to get hurt again. It doesn't want you to get involved in that trauma. It doesn't want this to happen again. So it tries to keep you safe and it creates the subjective storyline and it typically is about how weak we are, how bad we are, how unworthy we are, how you name it. We all have a story, right? We're overweight, we're too thin, we're this or this, we're not smart enough. Whatever it is, we all have a story and it's all our brain trying to keep us safe.

Srini Rao:

Yeah. Well, you also talk about how these stories limit us from the standpoint of making us fearful, having a scarcity mindset. Talk to me about sort of this idea of stories shaping reality and how that plays out.

Karena Kilcoyne:

Well, I will tell you that there are some serious ripple effects of trauma and the resulting stories we have. And I'll just use myself as an example. So how these stories played out for me professionally, we've already talked about it. I chased success. I did all these things. But the other interesting part of that for me was that I felt like an imposter. So I was out there chasing success, doing all these things.

passing bar exams, working on all these cases, and I would feel like an imposter. I didn't belong there. Like any day somebody was going to find me out that I wasn't smart enough to be there. And that's what the story was doing to me professionally. My stories of unworthiness, oh, you weren't even worthy of your parents' love. You weren't worthy of a childhood. So why would you be worthy of standing here in the presence of these people during these types of cases? So for me, this, this profound ripple effect professionally occurred.

and equally as profound in my personal life. These stories put me in relationships, signed me up for relationships that I shouldn't have been in. I got married when I was young. I paired, I mean, he was a nice enough person, but we did not have a deep love or a deep connection. And I chose people, romantic partners.

friends out of fear, fear of being alone, fear of being abandoned. What if nobody likes me? I better sign up for this relationship. And then I had, I mean, I don't know the details of your bad breakup, but I had one of those catastrophic breakups, you know, a few years later in my thirties where, you know, I thought the world was going to end. And again, the ripple effect of these stories that I had about myself and my worth and...

and who wanted to be with me and who would abandon me and who I signed up to be in relationships with that didn't treat me emotionally well and how I felt when they were over was catastrophic to me at the time. So yeah, the profound effect of these stories that it has on different facets of our life is just absolutely incredible.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, well, it's funny you mentioned the imposter thing because like I have always said, like, I mean, I published with the Penguin portfolio in print where it's like Ryan Holliday, Simon Sinek and Seth Godin and always like, I still do this. I'm like, what the hell am I doing here? How did I even end up here? Yeah. Like I always jokingly refer to myself as the redhead stepchild of the imprint.

Karena Kilcoyne:

Ha ha.

Karena Kilcoyne:

I know, see? We all have a story and look at you like in all that good company and you have every right to be there and look at all that you've done, all these podcast episodes, all the wonderful people that you've, you know, you've created awareness around. And it's still, it's so interesting for me to hear you say that. I just, it's something we all do. We all, we all have this sense of it. And so that's what I really try to promote is the self-awareness around it.

Srini Rao:

Well, let's talk about the next piece of this, which you say is releasing the story, because I think it's one thing to know, you know, like acknowledge it and be aware of it. I think the harder part is actually letting it go.

Karena Kilcoyne:

Absolutely. I would say that this step and the third step of the book and the breakdown of the formula were the hardest for me. Absolutely. So what is so crucial in this releasing the story part is you first have to understand how you got so caught up in the story in the first place because you can't get to where you want to go unless you understand where you've been. So for me, that was a lot of...

introspection about how did I get so caught up in it? And I share some of the, the stories that really walloped me good and hard in the book because I want to explain to people how I did give an example of how I got so caught up in it. But if we just want, I don't want to put terms on it, you know, I would say, you know, recurrent trauma, you know, the, how your parents were when they raised you, you know, what, what did they, did they push you to do things you didn't want to do?

Uh, were you, you know, set up for, you know, always setting yourself up for negative outcomes? Did you have recurrent? Did you have a multi-generational transfer of trauma? So that kind of thing, understanding where it came from. And then some of the biggest work is, was for me, it was inner child work and dialing back down into that younger me who felt so wounded and abandoned. And listen, as an adult woman, she was in there.

like 12 years old and mad and rageful. And she would just show herself in relationships, you know, in relation to other people. And it was just, I really had to get that in check. And then some of the other work that's so crucial, so incredibly crucial, if you're going to release the story is forgiveness, forgiving others, of course, but this also this idea of forgiving.

ourselves because when you come from trauma, especially I would think, especially childhood trauma, but I mean, I would imagine trauma at any age, there's something that happens in our brain that makes us feel to blame. And there was a big part of that for me to kind of go back in and, and find those pieces of me, me at 12, me at 13, me at 16, that the parts that I was so ashamed of.

Karena Kilcoyne:

and find the grace and compassion and forgiveness for those parts of me. And those are really the big steps that I found that I did that helped me finally release the story.

Srini Rao:

Yeah. Well, let's talk specifically about shame because you say that shame is one of the biggest reasons we live inside of our limiting stories for so long. It's also powerful and deadly emotion. Shame is without question a deadly emotional will keep you from love. It will beat you down harder than any abuse you endured. And you say that releasing shame's death grip requires you to do the simplest thing in the most difficult way. You must talk about it. Find someone you trust a therapist a coach a friend your spouse.

And this is really interesting to me because I just had a therapist who wrote a book called Rethinking the Couch and she practices in Asia. And I think one of the things that was so fascinating to talk to her about, especially being of Indian descent.

was the role that shame plays in the way that we behave in our culture. Like, because of the fact that we think about these from the stand, these kinds of things from the standpoint of the kind of shame it will bring on family, I think across cultures it's not as easy to just talk about it, you know. There are probably certain things in my life I will never in a million years tell my parents.

Karena Kilcoyne:

Well, and you know, and I think there's a time and a place for that, of course. And I agree with you. There is a cultural component. I think there's also a generational component. I've realized that too, that there were things about my parents that they would never, I could never imagine them talking about because there was just, there was a generational blip in time where that was never, you never did that.

That's just not what you would do. But I truly believe that. That was one of the, it was like the keys that, that unlocked me from my own prison was this idea of finally letting it out. And it started with me writing, journaling first, because it's not, you know, it's not like flipping a light switch, like, oh, I'm going to go sit down and talk to somebody and tell them all these stories I've never shared with anybody.

So it is, it is a, it's a practice. It is, it is, you have to, for me, at least I had to get in line and warm up with it and, and do it. And, and I, and I share in there, you know, that, you know, I had this, this dear relationship with a dog and, and it, and having that kind of unconditional love for the first time and sensing that really kind of gave me a safe space to feel like, okay, maybe I can unearth some of this stuff and I, and it wouldn't be so, so hard to talk about it.

So I would talk about it here and there with therapists, but it was mostly my husband who I found that I first shared a lot of this with. And for me, it was truly like feeling freedom for the first time.

Srini Rao:

Excuse me. Sorry. I drank water and it went down the wrong pipe. Sorry. Give me just a second. Sorry Josh. Go ahead and edit this out please. I'll make a marker here.

Karena Kilcoyne:

Oh, OK, I was going to say, OK.

Srini Rao:

Sorry about that. No, no, I'm good. That was just one of those like, you know, went down the wrong pipe type things. Alright. Well, so I think that one other aspect of this, particularly when we're talking about shame, that is interesting to me, and I think that you could probably relate to this now. I think when you're a public figure, there...

Karena Kilcoyne:

No. Okay. You don't need me to do the Heimlich or anything, right? Virtual.

Karena Kilcoyne:

I know. Okay.

Srini Rao:

is a sort of expectation of how you are going to behave in public, uh, in front of an audience. Like, like, you know, when I did reality TV, one of my cousins told me, he said, here's the thing. Anybody can make you look like a jackass in the editing. Your job is to give them zero ammo to do that with. And I was well aware of that simply because I had a public presence. And I think that I see this sort of like fine line between, you know, being vulnerable and being just, you know, reckless.

And people often step over that line, particularly when it comes to things like social media. I just, I'm curious to hear your take on that aspect of this because I think that people have this tendency to just air their dirty laundry because they'll read a book like yours or all these memoirs and be like, all right, that's it, now I'm gonna go out in the world and tell everybody all these god-awful things that have happened to me. So talk to me about that aspect of it.

Karena Kilcoyne:

It's interesting that you bring that up because I say, whenever I can in a mount, I say, you know, when I say this to you, I do not mean you need to go on Instagram or Facebook and dump your whole life story. That's not what I'm encouraging. I'm encouraging more of a mindfulness and definitely more of a thought out, I am going to do this in a way that serves my mental and emotional health.

and not in a way that is just attention seeking. So I think, I think some of it too comes from, you know, I was, I was ready to, to stand in a space of, I wanted to feel heal, you know, on a healing path and feel empowered. And I got that by doing it slowly and methodically and talking about it and unearthing it piece by piece. And so I am not somebody who is encouraging.

anybody to go out there and just spill their guts on whatever social platform. I do not think that is the best way to find that deeper light in you that, you know, feels empowered and, and feels like, you know, you are, are finding your way back to some sense of authentic, you know, authenticity, because I think that's really something that, that comes with a well traveled road of healing is this.

deep sense of knowing who you really are. And there's so many ways that we can go off track in that in attention seeking or external validation and we not really tuning into who we really are. Again, we're offering it up more as a shield, right? To not, to not show who we really are, but to say, Oh, look at this and look at this, but not really looking into who you really are.

Srini Rao:

Yeah. Well, let's talk about the last piece of this, which is the rising above the story. And you say that if we look deep enough, there's always something that makes us stronger, wiser, more insightful or more compassionate from the pain we endure, which you describe as finding a silver lining in a story. And...

One of the things that I think has become apparent to me with age and time is that in the moment, it's very difficult to see silver lightings. Like these things that happen, we only recognize in retrospect that they were amazing. And you know that like sort of phrase, it's like, if I knew what I did now, I wouldn't have done what I did then. And it's like, well, yeah, but if you did, then you wouldn't know what you do now.

Karena Kilcoyne:

Yes, absolutely. But I see, I really believe, I really do believe in that. And it's taken me a long time to get there, but you know, there was this part of me that always wanted to be a writer. And while I went to law school, at the time I chose it because I felt that life circumstances were such that, oh, it's better for me to go to law school. I have to provide myself. I was adopting my nine-year-old brother. I knew that was coming down the pike. So

I knew that I needed to do something like that. And so there were, you know, parts of me even then, you know, oh, I regret this. I'm never following my dream. My dream was to be a writer, to write a book. And now I look back on it and I think I wouldn't trade one day in law school. I wouldn't trade one day of practicing law. I would have my life be just as it is in that regard because I learned...

so much in that experience, not just, you know, how to think or how to craft an argument, but as a human being and the people that I interacted with, my clients, other lawyers, what I learned, I mean, that shaped me as a person. And you know, same thing with the trauma I endured as a child. Would I want to do it again? Absolutely not. But I do see that I would not be the person I am today, hardworking, resilient.

dedicated, determined. I wouldn't have those characteristics had I not lived through what I lived through. So what I want to teach in this book and that section is that there really is something in you that has changed or shifted because of what you experienced. And of course there are negative things, the shame, the fear, the pain of it all, of course, but there also can be good things that came of it.

And that was such an important part of my healing is to not look back on my life with regret or woe is me, why did that happen to me? But instead to say, you know what, it happened and now here's who I am because of it.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, you know, like I finished business school in April 2009. I couldn't find a job when I got out. And I remember the day of my graduation, my parents were like, we'll go out to celebrate later. And I was like, what are we celebrating? I'm like, my funeral will be a more joyful day than this. Because everybody in our class was unemployed. And now like 13 years later, I'm like, there would be no unmistakable creative if that hadn't happened.

Karena Kilcoyne:

Yep. I know.

Srini Rao:

So I want to finish with two final things here. You say that so many of us don't take the time to bask in the glow of our success. We minimize our hard work and don't acknowledge how good or smart or accomplished we really are. Learning how to celebrate your wins, no matter how big or small, is a beautiful and powerful way to fuel love for yourself.

Like, why don't we? Because I can tell you from firsthand experience, I remember the day we raised our venture funding, my mind was great, let's get to work. And my brother-in-law was like, this is a big deal. Take a moment to like, take that in.

Karena Kilcoyne:

Yeah, it's funny. I just started doing this like not that long ago and I included it in the book because it was such a powerful shift for me. And I think that so many of us who are so success driven, we just, we check a box and we keep going and we don't acknowledge what we've done and how good it is and how worthy it is and how much effort we put into it.

And, and I really want to encourage people of this idea because it doesn't have to be, you know, I graduated law school or I got my MBA or I, you know, my book was published. It doesn't even have to be that. I mean, there were periods of my life where getting out of bed and taking a shower was a win. So it's just this idea of having this understanding that you are doing good and you are on your way. And, and right now where you are in this present moment.

is good and you are worthy and you deserve to celebrate something that you've done. And I don't think we do. I don't think any of us do that enough.

Srini Rao:

Well, let's talk about one last piece here. You say that rising above our story is not linear and it's never a one and done. And I love that you put that towards the end of the book because I think that is so vitally important to this kind of work. Because I think we live in a culture of quick fixes. There's even a book called the quick fix, which is all about, it's like a critique on the entire sort of self-help industry.

Talk to me about that because I think that we kind of have this idea that, you know, it's going to be some book, some person, whatever it is, is going to come along and all this crap is going to be gone from our lives, which is absolutely absurd. But that's how we, it's, you know, we have these sort of pre-packaged formulas for success. It's like, you know, 10 ways to get over your breakup, 10 ways to make more money, 10 ways to be more productive.

Karena Kilcoyne:

Yeah. It is so true. It's so true. And I love that you brought this up because this was such an important part for me to include in this book. So I wrote this book because I wanted to write a guide book for people. I was so overwhelmed when I started my healing journey. I didn't know what to do, where to start, but you know, taking my type A personality, I tried everything I could, and I tried all these different modalities, which I share in the book. And I read all these books and I distilled all the science. And when I got...

this bright spot where I know I wanted to write this book, I thought, you know, what's really interesting, and I want people to know this, is that healing is not a one and done. And there's no shame in that. This is, this is hard work. You have to work this. You have to want to be here. You have to want to do the work. You have to want to stop the pain. And like anything that's a lot of work, there's going to be...

slow days, there's going to be harder days, there's going to be moments when you feel like you have failed. And I have this analogy I say that I felt when I was on my healing journey. And it felt as though I had spent my whole life on a boat anchored out into the ocean. And healing was on this island that I could see from the boat. And I jumped off the boat and I started swimming. And I was about halfway there.

And I didn't know what the water was going to be like on the rest of my journey to healing. And I look back at the boat and I think, well, I know it's on the boat. The boat seems pretty good. And, and I, and then you, you start to wonder in your healing journey, should I keep going somewhere I don't know what it's going to feel like, or should I turn around and go back to what I know, the drama I know, the chaos I know, the pain I know, because that becomes familiar and it becomes almost comforting. And so you really have to make the choice.

that you want inner peace and you want emotional freedom. And what I want people to understand is that you can get there, but it's not linear. It's going to be two steps up, one step back, one step up, two steps back. And it's not a destination. It is not that. I am still on a healing journey. I still, I talk about this too, that you can see something as a setback or you can see it as an opportunity.

Karena Kilcoyne:

to learn more about yourself and to rise above the story even more. Because I still have these moments myself and I stop myself and I think, okay, this isn't a setback. This is me having an opportunity to shift this, look at it a different way, turn it that way, turn it upside down. And it's such an important concept to understand that healing and getting over this trauma is a journey. It's an adventure. It's not like, oh, I'm going to get there and that's going to be the end all.

You can enjoy the different phases as you go.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, beautiful. Well, I have one final question for you, which is how we finish all of our interviews at the Unmistakable Creative. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Karena Kilcoyne:

Oh, I would say being their most authentic self. When you meet somebody who knows who they are and they show you that with just this unabashed honesty, it to me, those are the people that I remember the most that to me just feels like.

They are unmistakably themselves. And I love people who have found that within themselves and feel free to share that with the world.

Srini Rao:

Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story, wisdom and your insights with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you, your work, the book and everything else that you're up to?

Karena Kilcoyne:

My website is rise And on there, there's a sign up for a newsletter, which I send out twice a month. And on social, I am Karena_kilcoyne on Instagram and Facebook.

Srini Rao:

Amazing, and for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.

Karena Kilcoyne | The Art of Letting Go: Releasing the Stories That Hold You Back

Karena Kilcoyne

Candid Conversations: Elevate Your Thinking with Masters of Their Craft