Larry Kasanoff | Unleashing Creativity: A Journey from Marshall Arts To Hollywood

Srini: larry, welcome to the Unmistakable Creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Larry Kasanoff: My pleasure. I'm really happy to be here.

Srini: Yeah, it is my pleasure to have you here. So you have a new book out called A Touch of Madness, and when I saw what it was all about and the things that you have done with your career in terms of filmmaking as somebody who had aspirations of working in the entertainment industry, I thought to myself, yep, I definitely want to talk to this guy. But before we get into the book, I want to start by asking you what Was the very first job that you ever had, and what did you learn from it and how did it end up shaping and influencing where you've ended up and what you're doing with your life and career?

Larry Kasanoff: The fir, the first job I ever had was when I was a little kid. My best friend Richard and I were firecracker dealers. I'm talking like fourth grade in Boston. And we used to sell firecrackers. And then we graduated to high school and we started selling fake ID cards. And I and we

saw the fake ID cards,

Srini: here.

Larry Kasanoff: Yeah. Yeah. We sold the fake ID cards for 50 cents and they weren't selling, so we raised the price to $4 and we sold out. So it was my first great marketing lesson that people ascribe value by the price.

And so that was my first job. And then I worked a se and then I would just work a series Of temp jobs whenever I needed money to go do something we mow lawns, we wash cars, we we do any, anything we could.

So I worked at ice cream place. We did everything like that, that we, that we could, and I did a lot of that. But I think what I really learned from it all was what I learned from those fake ID cards. That perceived value is really important.

Srini: Yeah. It seems to me like this touch of madness was inherent in you from the get go. Of all the things you could have chosen to do, firecrackers and fake IDs, two things that were basically illegal. I don't think that the important thing is that you did something illegal, but more that you had that kind of audacity.

Where does that come from?

Larry Kasanoff: I just I was just always like that as a little kid and I always used to get in trouble. And when I was In school, I went to a very small, like grammar school. I, it was a very small local school and there was like two classes, the re class and the small, little advanced class. And I was in the advanced class, but I was always the bad kid in the advanced class.

In other words, I would get all A's, and in those days we would get A, B, C, D, E, F, and I would get an F in conduct and that was my entire. Under school career in high school and grad and and grammar school. So they couldn't really nail me too bad. 'cause then everything really bad and I got all A's.

So it, I was just always like that. And I always, and I had incredibly supportive parents who knew I was no angel, mind you. But one time in our little school, in that little classroom, we got accused of doing something that we didn't do and the principal of the whole school department came down and he said, I'll make a deal with you if you all admit it and say you're sorry then. I'll you, your guys are okay. All the other 11 kids all said they do it. And I stood up and I said, no, we didn't do it. And they called my parents and it was a huge deal. And I heard my mother arguing on the phone with him and then she said wait a minute. You asked him for his opinion and he gave it to you.

So I'm not gonna punish him because you asked. So they were e even though they were, they again, they had no illusions about my being a sweet little angel or anything. They were incredibly supportive of For me and my brother of being whatever you wanna be and going for it. And if you work hard, you can get whatever you want.

But it, that was always my personality from day one. I get thinking about it. I really thought about it till you just asked, but

it was always like that.

Srini: What's been the trajectory that has led you into the entertainment industry and eventually to writing this book? Because you and I both know that is no easy path and is as much as we like to sell this sort of be anything, do anything have anything

narrative I.

There's also we have to add a touch of reality to it for people too. I only know this because I learned this the hard way. When I got to business school, I realized I'd gone to business school at Pepperdine, and within two weeks I realized nobody hires MBAs to do creative work in the entertainment industry.

I was like, okay, great. I'm too old to start at the mail room in Willie Morris.

Larry Kasanoff: So when I was a little kid, my father took me to see a James Bond movie, and my father always loved the movie business, but anyways, he was like a writer on the side, but not not professionally. He grew up, his parents were immigrants and he just, he was in World War ii. He just didn't have that kind of opportunity.

But he took me to see a James Bond movie and when we left, I said, okay, there's two things. I wanna be James Bond. And who's that guy who said produced by a Cubby broccoli presentation? Who's that guy? And my father explained what a producer does, and I said, that's what I want to do. And no kidding, I used to just walk around and tell people that age 11, I'm going to Hollywood, be a movie producer.

I, I ran into my oldest friend in Israel recently and he said, I can't believe that you used to say this when you were 10 and now you're doing it. But I, I started planning then. And the way I planned it is in Boston where I was, I told you we were in that grammar school. My parents were wonderful, but didn't have any money.

And there's a school in Boston called Boston Latin School, which is the oldest high school in the country. It, Benjamin Franklin went there. It's like going to school in the 1860s. In one sense it's terrible, but it, in those days, it had a really great reputation of getting kids into great colleges.

And if you take it, if you do well in a test to get in, you can go for free. So since grammar school, I was like, I'm getting in that school. Then from that school, I'm gonna get into a good college, and then that way I'll meet people and that's the only way I'll get to Hollywood. And that's exactly what happened.

So it sounds easy, you're right when you say it in hindsight, but

Srini: Yeah, you make it sound easy.

Larry Kasanoff: yeah, but I just spent literally, since I was a little kid, I'm gonna get into Latin school and I hated every minute about the Latin school, honestly. But it got me into Cornell, and Cornell got me into Wharton. I did every internship I could until one of those internships at at Wharton led to my first job.

But it was a complete plan from day one, and it was a lot of work. You're right. It wasn't always easy, but I just was determined to do it.

Srini: Talk to me about the hard parts because for every story like yours that you hear about Hollywood, there's a dozen, probably a thousand that we don't of people who've never made it. 'cause I feel like this is something I've been realizing as I've been talking to people and I had a guy yesterday who had written a book about perfection that I was speaking to. So much of this sort of narrative that we hear is ripe with survivor bias. And you mentioned this wasn't exactly a smooth road, so talk to me about the parts that were horrible. The reality, paint us the picture that we don't get to see. 'cause we see you now. We didn't see everything in between.

Larry Kasanoff: I think there were obviously stuff in my personal life that went on during that time, that was somehow challenging, but that didn't have anything to do with the work aspect of it. I think it it was just, Like I I do a lot of martial arts because of, I produce all the Mortal Kombat movies and if you look at a fighter, and even if the fighter's the best fighter ever of a Floyd Mayweather who was 50 and oh, you still get hit 50 times around.

If you win, you still get hit 50 times around. And I don't think there was one catastrophic event. There were a lot of highs and lows and disappointments. I thought, I got this. I didn't. Before I got my internship at H B O, which is what led me to my job, I didn't have it. And I was gonna do some more accounting job at C B Ss and it was just a question of utter, absolute persistence and some and that was just a, it was it was a marathon and that was just hard to constantly do it.

And I didn't have any money in those days and I was always working like 19 jobs in college and. And going on scholarships to try and get it, but I just was so focused on doing it and just love the idea of doing it so much and love movies so much, and I still love movies so much as. And it's still if you get now you're, as I said you're Mayweather and now you're on your 49th fight.

The other guy doesn't hit you less hard 'cause you had some success. So it's still a lot of that. It's just a constant feeling that this is the game and you're gonna get hit. You gotta understand it and you gotta keep, you gotta get up again. My martial arts sensei used to say the mark of a champion is not how you punch, but how you take a punch.

And I, I certainly have found that to be true. So it wasn't one huge crisis, but a lot of punches that he just said, I don't care. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it. I don't care. I'm gonna do it and just keep and doing it. No matter what happens, just keep doing it.

And I also gamble a lot.

When I. That internship at H B O was the summer between my two years at Wharton, and I had essentially two job offers. One was to go work at H B O which I would've had a corporate job in the cubicle at H B O or to take a shot on the startup company. Started by a guy who had left H B O and taken some of the rights with him to start a home video company in the mid eighties.

In Connecticut. I said, I'm not gonna work in Connecticut. I'm gonna Hollywood. And, but I did go to work in Connecticut. 'cause my boss to be at H B O said to me, listen, you have the job here. You can come here, but you're gonna be sending a cubicle for seven years. And if you go to that company restaurant, it might fail, but if it succeeds, you'll get to work in production right away.

So I kept gambling like that. And then later when we talk about a touch of the madness I gambled more. So I, I did. Keep, and I still do it. I still kept taking chance after chance, and some paid off and some didn't. But I kept gambling and I kept focusing. As I said, think of the boxer.

You win the fight, you still get hit 50 times around.

Srini: Yeah. The two things come to mind for me when you mentioned this sort of persistence. The first is an interview that I heard with Matt Damon. He was on Sam Jones podcast off camera, and he was talking about the fact that he had no plan B, and he tells this Really incredible story about how the reason Goodwill Hunting actually got written was 'cause those guys needed to create jobs for themselves. They, like nobody was hiring them for anything. And he said most people don't realize at that point they had both been in the screen Actress's Guild for 10 years and that

was their breakout moment. And he said that he had no plan B and to As a counter argument to that, we had Annie Duke recently who wrote a book called, quit the Power of Knowing When to Walk Away. And so I wonder in your industry in particular, I mean I know this 'cause I'm in the arts and the arts is literally a career where nothing is guaranteed and anything is possible. What is it that separates the person who persists and actually succeeds versus the one who does quit? And I feel like there are probably times when it does make sense to quit.

Larry Kasanoff: Talent's half the battle. It's really interesting because I go through this all the time now, not only in terms of myself, but in terms of new actors, new filmmakers, new writers. I can tell in two minutes, let's say it's an actor I'm talking to, I can tell in two minutes if they have talent, if they have charisma.

I can't tell if they have the persistence. Sense. There's nothing you can do, but time will tell 'em that. And that is the determining factor. The most important factor certainly in this business, I can't speak for others, is the fortitude and the persistence. And I don't care how talented you are, like Matt Damon and Ben Affleck.

It's right, it's 10 years and there's it takes 10 years to become an overnight success. And when you come one, everyone goes, Hey, I was great. I came out to Hollywood and now I'm in goodwill hunting. But it's not like that. And what that, that. That question is a great one. My first boss used to call it Fire in the Belly.

What separates the people who have the fire in the belly and what separates the people who don't? I don't know. I think it's indefinable, but I think the people who have it, either it's just the way they're made up or they just so clearly see the goal and see themselves in it and think, I have to get to that reality 'cause nothing else will make me happy.

And there's reason. There's no plan B. Is because of that. I used to tell myself that I have an M B A for Morton Push comes to shove. I can always go work on Wall Street, but I would've been miserable and I mean I got job offers on Wall Street i's I used to travel around in business school.

There's just no way I would do something like that. It just wouldn't make me happy. And so I think that's what it is. I think when you look

,

down that road, which is long, but you think, but any other path, even if I get it, I won't be happy. I think it's that, and most people don't want it. I'm a, when I speak at film schools and I think I develop a harsh I portray a harsh reality to a lot of the kids.

'cause I say to them, Especially these days, in two years, 80% of you won't be in the movie business. And it's not 'cause you're not talented, it's 'cause you don't have the persistence. You have an easy life, you have a million options. You have wealthy parents. You don't need to do this. And most people don't.

I like, for example, if I'm in a film school and I say to a kid, okay, what do you wanna do when you graduate? And they say, I wanna direct horror movies. And I say, great, what horror movies do you like? And they say, oh, I don't watch horror movies. Which happens a lot by the way. Right away, you know that nine outta 10 times that kid's never gonna wind up in the movie business.

Srini: No.

Larry Kasanoff: So you either have it or you don't. And that is the determining factor. We meet so many people who are so talented who don't have it. And I'm fascinated by your question because the prettiest women aren't necessarily the most successful models, the best singers are not necessarily the most successful singers.

And on. Taylor Swift is Taylor Swift. Not only 'cause she's talented 'cause she was running songs when she was 11 and driving around and dropping 'em off at record companies. It that persistence is everything. And without it in the entertainment business, unless you just get lucky and win the lottery, you're not gonna make it.

And it is the determining factor. It's the thing we most look for.

Srini: I think when I, the thing that I remember, like verbatim from that Matt Damon conversation with Sam Jones was he told Sam Jones, when I meet somebody who wants to be an actor, I try to talk them out of it. And he said, why? And he said, because if I can talk you out of this in one conversation, you're not made for this.

Larry Kasanoff: That's exactly right. Yeah, he's right. I do that too. He's exactly right. Why do you wanna do this? You got other ideas. Even when people come to us as like outside investors in the business you sure you wanna do it? He's right. If you can talk someone out of it. You know what, we do a lot with auditions.

If the actors knew, 'cause you don't have a body of work on which to judge, we call them back three or four more times than we need to for the acting just to see if they'll do it. If after two times we say we need to see you one more time, they don't wanna drive to we have a nice office in Santa Monica.

It's not exactly hell, we know they won't do it. We do that kind of stuff all the time. And Matt's right you try and you cajole and you push and if they can be dissuaded, then they're not gonna do it.

Srini: Yeah.

Larry Kasanoff: And the process too, like even when you get on the movie, it's great sometimes it's a 16 hour day and it's really hot and you're tired and sweaty and the food's not good.

It it's a tough, it's a great job, but it's not all butterflies and rainbows. So that is the determining factor, and we search for that all the time, high and low. I would rather hire someone who has not so much raw talent, but incredible persistence. Than someone who has incredible talent and no persistence.

Srini: Yeah.

Larry Kasanoff: is more important than talent.

Srini: One thing I wonder is how the internet has changed your business, internet and technology. Because now everybody and their mother has the opportunity to plug in a microphone and do what I'm doing or start a YouTube channel. So how does that change the way that you both find talent and just how does it cause the landscape to change?

Larry Kasanoff: That's a great question. During the pandemic we we made three movies, which was good, but not as much as we would've wanted to over that time. And so we started thinking, what else can we do during this time? So we developed a lot of scripts and then we thought maybe we could find, you can't do in person auditions, but maybe we could find some new talent.

'cause we like putting new talent in some of our movies. Over Instagram and we started looking and we actually found some people and one or two of whom were actually gonna cast. But the thing that was funny is I thought, wow, this is great. We can find people this way. People can put themselves on tape this way.

Yet it oddly seems. to have the opposite effect where the person who can put themselves on on, on Instagram or TikTok or whatever, starts thinking this is pretty good. I don't really have to go and audition and have people say no to me. 'cause I, whatever, however I'm making my living from paid ads or or other collaborations with people I don't really have to.

In an odd way, I thought it is good. We are getting some people that way, but not as many as I thought because a lot of people seem to top out at that level. They think this is enough. And so in, in one sense I look at that when people say, gee, it's so hard to get into entertainment business today.

It's always been, but I think what you just said, you can find your, you can start a TikTok channel. You can start a YouTube channel. Yet if you say how many people have gone from that? Into movies or tv. It's shockingly low,

Srini: Yeah.

Larry Kasanoff: and I'm not exactly sure why. The, my, my other theory is for years and years, the whole history is certainly the movie business.

These movie stars were handled in a way that they were iconic and you can only go see them on the big screen and the studio would, okay. They'd release a picture of Lana Turner, Humphrey Bogart once a month when they wanted to, incredibly crafted. Now you see everybody picking their nose on Instagram 15 times a day.

I'm not sure that person becomes someone. You've gotta run to the movie theater and see there are people with 200 million followers who are good actors or actresses. They're not the biggest actors or actresses in town, and theoretically they should be. So there has been, I think I'm right in saying this, no examples yet of someone who came up via a social media or the internet.

And from that became a movie star.

It's really interesting.

Srini: I think that part of that in my mind is because social media centers around metrics, whereas I think the people that you deal with are focused on mastery.

Larry Kasanoff: Yeah, I think that's true and I think it is interesting 'cause if you look at social media and try and think, why is this person who's opening, present, or playing with a lizard, why are they so popular? But they are. But you're right, that isn't really mastery. It's mass. Clicks, whatever you wanna call it, but it's not master.

I think that's a really good point.

And again, it's still hard no one is saying to you when you sit in your living room and put yourself on TikTok every day do it again. The angle is wrong. You just do whatever you want and it's great and good for you. But, and we do look, and as I said, we have found one or two people who we're now gonna put in a movie.

But the, but I should say this, the people who we found are not . Are not Instagram

superstars. They're not people with millions of followers. They're people with 30,000 followers. They just happen to be really good and seem to be really dedicated to it.

Srini: Yeah, I mean I, I had a self-published book that became a Wall Street Journal bestseller, and when I had the chance to do a book deal, I did it because I knew that doing a book with a publisher was gonna be a different ball game. It basically it taught me like what it's like to do this at the professional level, and it's really different.

Larry Kasanoff: Did you are you, did you use social media yourself before you signed with a publisher? Did you,

did, is that how you got well

Srini: No, actually my social media presence is actually minuscule for how long we've been doing this. I'm not a big social media fan. I don't use it. I'm much more interested in focusing on producing content. I cause I feel like so often, like you look at somebody like my friend Ryan Holiday, right?

I think that it's very easy to have mix up causation and correlation. And I'm like, Ryan's like massive following on social is a byproduct of the fact that he's done such exceptional work. It's not the other way around.

Larry Kasanoff: but how did you get your book known? When

Srini: Oh, so I, that was just a stroke of luck. Glen Beck happened to find it. And while he was browsing Amazon, I was on the Glen Beck Show, and then two and a two years later. But keep in mind back to the idea of persistence for two years, it didn't lead to anything. So I just kept writing a thousand words a day, publishing articles every week.

And I think two and a half, maybe two years after that, an editor at Penguin found something I wrote and reached out to me. See persistence.

yeah.

Larry Kasanoff: Yeah.

Srini: So one last thing before we get into the book. I think this will make a nice segue into the book and you've been around a lot of very like famous people and I think that there is this misperception that we have of what it is like to live in the spotlight. I. That is perpetuated in a lot of ways by things like social media. So gimme the reality check of what these people's lives are actually like versus what we think they're like. 'cause what do we see? We see red carpets, fancy dresses, nice cars, amazing parties.

Larry Kasanoff: In my experience the very famous people I've worked with, actors, directors, whatever, it's no coincidence you meet them in thir like Matt Damon. You just, I don't know Matt, but you meet them in 30 seconds and you go, I got it. The first time I ever met Arnold Schwarzenegger was in the beginning of T two.

He had just come off another movie with with Sony, and he gave everyone a speech. And I never actually met him before we were just starting the project, and I looked at him and I thought, if this guy was American, he'd be president of the United States in one second. That was the, my first instinct, and as I got to know him, none of it was a coincidence.

And I know lots of other people like that. They command their careers. They know what they're doing. They call their agents three times a day. They say, how about this? How about that? They're unbelievably . In control and orchestrating their own career. So the notion, and I always tell young actors, is that some agent is gonna then call you and you're gonna simply sit at home munching Cheetos by the pool, and they're gonna call and say the Jet's coming tomorrow and here's the money.

And no. They work, they plan they focus. It's not, in my experience, it's never a coincidence. They

do it. That's the difference. People think it just happens and they just have these charms lives. They do lead great lives, but they work their asses off.

Srini: Yeah.

Larry Kasanoff: When we were doing T two, it was such it was most expensive movie at the time, and I wanted I I wanna do a music video. 'cause M T V played music in those days and if you got a video, you had a lot of promotion. And Arnold didn't have to, it was not in his contract and it was a lot of work. And I asked him, and he said, if you get the best band in the world, I'll do it. That's what, he was like, the best, and I'll do it.

And I said, okay, what do you want? And he didn't know, but he, his brother-in-law was in the music business and he called his brother-in-law and said, who's the best band in the world as I was standing? And he goes, Uhhuh. And he looked at me, he said, guns N Roses. And I said, yeah. I didn't even know if you knew who they were.

And I said, okay. I didn't know. I didn't know Guns N Roses, but we got 'em. And then he was incredible. The work he did, it was incredible. And that's what the good actors are like. Great actors also are the easiest to work with. They're not the divas. The ones who are not, have not really made it. And that's where you gotta be a little careful.

But the great actors, they're fabulous in my experience. They're just great.

Because they, it's not a coincidence that they're there, and that's the difference that people don't understand. They are the arc, they are the c e O of a company whose product is them, and they're good CEOs.

Srini: It's funny that you have that that's how you describe them because I remember Shark Khan was like super famous Indian actor. I'm sure you've probably heard of him.

Larry Kasanoff: Yeah, sure. Of course.

Srini: so he was, he did an interview with Letterman and. The thing that he said in that interview that stayed with me was he said, I am a employee of the Myth of Shara Khan. And I'm like, wow. What a great way to separate yourself from like the character that the public has created of you.

Larry Kasanoff: Carrie Grant has this great quote where he says something like, it's great to be Carrie Grant, everyone wants to be Carrie Grant. Hell, I'd like to be Carrie Grant.

Srini: Yeah I, yeah, that's

Larry Kasanoff: true.

Srini: The reason I mention that is because I wonder like how these people stay grounded when millions of people are clamoring for their attention. And it's really easy for people to attribute quality to, to them that they'll never live up to and all sorts of stuff like that. I was reading LeBron James biography recently and one of the things that struck me most throughout that was in his entire career, he's avoided the whole sort of lifestyle of the N B A. He's been with the same woman since he was in high school and he's committed to basketball.

Don't get me wrong, he's enjoying his life, but it seems like he's been very intentional about that. And I'm wondering how you see that play out too with people who are really famous.

Larry Kasanoff: I don't know that I can speak to whether they stick grounded or not. I think grounded means. Different things. I'm a big fan of the Sitcom 30 Rock where the Jack Donaghy character would, if you're the c e o of N B C in the sitcom would always say let's go buy some milk at the store.

What does milk cost? Like

,

$95 a gallon. You had no sense of the reality of life. And they are incredibly well taken care of. So grounded, certainly grounded in business, certainly good in a great work ethic, certainly good in movies. Are they grounded? I think that depends on the individual, and I think some people do lead that kinda life and are with the same woman or man since high school.

I don't know that they all are. I think maybe that's one place, because that is right. That is really hard. Everyone is giving you whatever you want and there's a danger to that because if you surround yourself with too many yes men, you're gonna make mistakes. And so the hard thing for them, I don't think is so much, where do I shop?

I think the hard thing is to be able to talk to them and and. And tell 'em the truth. I remember another night, I'm just using Arnold example, 'cause we talked about this. We were in the trailer, Arnold's trailer on T two and there were two other guys there. And one was a sort of marketing guy and one has passed away.

Now he's a visual effects guy. And Arnold smoked cigars all the time and. He asked me if I wanted cigar. I don't smoke, and I said, no. And he made fun of me and then I made fun of him back. And then he's fine. He's just screwing around. But when he asked them, they said yeah of course.

And they both have asthma, bad. So they were sitting there with an asthma inhaler in one hand and a cigar in the other, taking a puff, and then spritzing the asthma stuff into their mouth so they didn't die. Be rather than say no to Arnold about a cigar and Arnold wouldn't have cared. So I think when people are like that around you, I think it's hard to stay grounded.

I think it's hard to get real answers from people.

And there used to be a great lawyer in town named Jake Bloom. He's retired now, but Jake, I. Handled everybody. He handled Arnold and Stallone and Bruce Willis, and he was the Bluntest guy in the world. . He was so blunt and he, I was, I had a friend who was a very famous actor who was a client of his.

And we all had dinner once and the friend had just finished a movie and we sat down and Jake said, your movie is so bad, it's not even going to video . And he was so blunt with them, but they loved him for it. And that, that is the way to handle people like that. But it's hard. So the grounded question is a tough one.

I think it's more they don't if no one tells you the truth ever, that's a tough way to, that's a, can be a very distortive way to go through life.

Srini: I can imagine. Let's get into the book. You opened this book by telling a story about Oliver Stone. So I wanna start there so we can frame it for our listeners and then talk about this sort of framework for what you call a touch of madness.

Larry Kasanoff: Such of the madness. Sure. So at my great job that I got after audit planning after grad school was head of production and acquisition film acquisitions of a company called Veron, which was a new. Independent studio focusing or riding the wave of the home video. So in those days, home video was the new thing, DVDs, and much like streaming today, it was a huge content goal.

Rush people needed content because video stores were opening, they had room for 25,000 movies and they didn't have any. So companies like restaurants sprang up to fill that gap. And so my first job outta school was to be head of production. Deliver 80 movies a year, eight zero movies a year to the company.

Buy 'em, make 'em, co-produce 'em. We don't care if you lose money, you're in big trouble kid. Good luck. So we made genre fair horror movies rom-coms low budget action movies, things like that. And they did well. They did really well and it was great experience and it was fun. But then along came a script for a movie called Platoon.

Which was not the kind of movie we made. It was a serious drama about the Vietnam War and the impact it had on kids. Its tagline was, the first casualty of war is innocence. The people in the movie are great actors, and Oliver found them all. They're stars now, but they weren't Stars Yen, but they weren't stars.

Then. Oliver had done a movie before that we financed call it on Salvador, which was great, but it wasn't a hit. And I said to my boss, the chairman of the company, I wanna make this movie. And he said, you're crazy. We don't make movies like this. And I fought and he said, okay, look, you're ahead of production.

It's your decision, but if it fails, you're fired. What do you wanna do? And I thought I didn't get into the movie business to play it safe, and I had a strong instinct. So I took the shot. When I saw the movie the first time, the first final cut, I'm the only person to giggle his way through, through the first screening of Platoon.

Not 'cause it's bad, but because I realized, oh my God, I'm not getting fired. It's good. And it was so good that it won Best Picture at the Academy Awards that year. A few months later, I ran into Oliver Stone in a bar in New York one night by coincidence, and we had a drink and he said kid, I always liked you.

You have a touch of the madness, and I thought a touch of the madness. A little bit of the, is he calling me crazy? Am I crazy? And then I thought Oliver had a touch of the madness by insisting on a Vietnam movie to be made his way that had never been done before. My boss certainly had a touch of the madness by letting a 25 year old kid run an 80 picture film slate with no prior experience, and I had a touch of the madness by betting that all on one movie, and then it hit me that a touch of the madness is exactly what you need to be in the movie business.

As you said, maybe I've always had it. I never thought of it that way. It's exactly what you need in any business to be wildly creative. And then I thought why is being wildly creative important? We did okay making mediocre action in horror movies. But if you keep to that, you know the tide of the river of life will always pull you towards the middle always.

And the only way to swim against that. Is with innovation and creativity, and the only way to have innovation and creativity at its extreme is I believe, to have a touch of the madness. Meaning while unbridled creativity, that idea that you're thinking in the back of your mind, I don't know, I have a good accounting job, but I really wanna start an independent bakery or whatever it is.

The one that your parents will kill you if you do. That's the idea to go for. And that's what you gotta do because your audience, whether it's your movie audience or your customers, they want new and different. And if you get complacent, your competitors will outrun you and eclipse you. So you need a touch of the madness.

And that's been my touchstone my entire career in the movie business. And I finally wrote the book because I've noticed, especially in the last few years, for whatever reason, I think people are more and more scared to be their most. Unbridled creative selves and I want to encourage them to do that.

And that's why I wrote the book because I just saw more and more people saying, we better not take a chance. We don't wanna offend anyone. We shouldn't do this. I don't know, maybe it's too much. I've seen it in a way more than I've ever seen it before, and I thought maybe I can do a little something to push a few people back to a touch of the madness.

So that's why I wrote it.

Srini: I think that what I appreciate about the way that you structured this was it wasn't just balls like throw caution to the wind and do everything that comes to your mind, but it was very thoughtful. So let's talk about the guidelines that you actually give us and explain them. So the first thing you talk about is finding the essence of your ideas. So talk to me about

what that means and how it plays out.

Larry Kasanoff: When I I wanted to make, at one point I was working with Jim Cameron and I wanted to make Mortal Kombat. And Mortal Kombat was a new video game in the days when video games were new and it was very violent and got a lot of attention for that way and no video game to movie adaptation. It worked and everyone said to me you're gonna, you can't do this.

You're gonna be, you've been in your career again. Why you have a great job? What are you doing? And I left to make Mortal Kombat and, but there. Real thing is I never thought I was making a movie from a video game, and I never think that way about an intellectual property. I think I'm making a movie from the essence of that video game.

So if you think of a pyramid, you would think the video game, which is gonna be adapted to a movie, is at the top of the pyramid, I would think. No. It's one rung down. One side of the pyramid at the top of the pyramid is the essence of that game. Why is it successful? 'cause the video game is one medium, and I always thought the essence of Mortal Kombat was empowerment.

Ma Martial Arts really teaches you that if you're the you, if you do the right thing and study hard, you don't have to be the biggest kid on the block to win. And when I was trying to decide whether or not to make a movie and brisk my career, once again, I was wandering around an arcade in Westwood, California, an arcade is where they used to have video game machines that you play a quarter to play and a little kid slapped a.

Coined down and said, I challenge you to Mortal Kombat. And he beat the hell out of me. And Mortal Kombat, if you don't know when you lose, it makes you feel bad. And when you win, it makes you feel good. You win Subzero loses. And the kid felt great, he left feeling great, he'd beat an adult. And I thought, I'm making this.

So once you say to yourself, okay, mortal Kombat is about empowerment, in my opinion. And also wrapped in a visually . Wonderful packaging, that's what we did. You can then take that essence and go down all the sides of the period and make video games and TV shows and animated TV shows and movies, which is what we've done and continue to do because I think we got the essence right.

Yeah. So I think you have to really understand your product, your brand, your movie by its essence. Why does this work for the character? I get asked all the time. So there we made more video games into movies. They'll be made great essences into movies. They used to think you could make a book into a movie.

What's crazy in the 1920s to think a book could be made into a movie, but it's, you're not making a book into a movie. You're making that essence, you're making that story. You're not making all the words f Scott Fitzgerald wrote into a book. When you're making great Gatsby, you're making the essence of the story, and that's what I think is incredibly important.

That's the first thing you gotta do.

Srini: Yeah. So basically what you're telling me is when you know books are made into movies that suck, the people who are producing them didn't think about the essence.

Larry Kasanoff: I think that's true. Here's a great example. When I was at Light Storm in those days when they had booked manuscripts or scripts that were coming out, they were auctioned. There were so many people looking for good material. And at the same time, Jurassic Park the manuscript to the book, Jurassic Park and the manuscript to the book Bonfire of the Vanities, I.

A story about Wall Street was being sold and they were both huge hit books. And and it was a list like we were second for Jurassic Park, but Spielberg took it and Bonfire the vanities got sold too. But if you really look at those two projects, Jurassic Park is about a dinosaur park that goes wrong.

The great cinema property and bonfire of the vanities is about a miserable guy in Wall Street who's terribly selfish. And conceded and ruins his life and the lives of those around him. Now, bonfire of the Vanities is incredibly well written 'cause the writer is a great mastery of language, but the essence of it is not an interesting story for a movie.

And Jurassic Park, as is a huge success, which is still made today. And Bonfire of the Vanities was a huge failure. It's not 'cause the guy who wrote Bonfire of the Vanities was a worse writer. It's because the essence of it wasn't right for other properties. Yeah. So that's exactly what I'm telling you.

Usually when the book sucks or something, the book to movie adaption sucks. It's 'cause they miscalled that or they called it wrong,

Srini: Yeah. Okay, so I gotta ask you, just out of morbid curiosity, what in the hell is the story behind the secret behind the Fast and Furious franchise? I feel like it's like the never ending franchise. I don't know any movie series that's lasted that long. I.

Larry Kasanoff: in my opinion. It's just my opinion, I have nothing to do with it, but fast and furious. There were a million car movies that failed. And why do car movies fail when cars are so popular around the world? Fast and furious in the beginning, I. Played the culture and the family of it. It's you can't watch a fast and furious movie where Ven Diesel doesn't say me familia.

And he talks about the family and it's always family and we're a family. And in the beginning it really was this family in this house, in East LA and the drifter culture. It was the culture of it. It captured the culture. Now it's just this incredibly great extravaganzas, but they never forgot that family aspect.

We're in this together. And I think that was the essence that they got, that no one else got.

Srini: Yeah. Speaking of that let's talk about the other piece, which is knowing your target customer audience, because I think this is where creatives in particular tend to have a lot of false positives.

Larry Kasanoff: Yeah. . I always say in the beginning of a movie or to my staff, who do you work for? You don't work for me. The director of the studio. You work for the audience. And the thing I can't stand the most is when someone says I like, and I feel no. You have to say, I'm the guardian of the audience.

So

,

I like four. So when we were starting Dirty Dancing, Which I was like two minutes into the film business and the real geniuses behind Dirty. I was head of production, but the geniuses were not me. It was a guy named Jimmy Einer, who's a music legend, who's still my partner in my company, and Michael Lloyd, who's also a music legend who we still work with today as a composer and music supervisor.

And Jimmy said let's, he suggested Jennifer Gray for casting. And again, I was two minutes into the business and I said, look, she's a great actress, but she's not the most famous actress right now, and she's not the most glamorous actress right now. And. And I was just throwing off the names of actresses who I thought were glamorous 'cause I liked it.

And he said the fact that she's not, that is the whole point, you idiot. Because she's an, every woman and every woman in the world will identify with her and say if she can get Patrick Swayze, so can I. And I went, oh, . And he was a hundred percent right. And had I prevailed and we casted some Not that some person who everyone didn't identify generous is great quality that everyone identifies with her.

The milk movie would've failed. He knew his audience incredibly well. And you've gotta know your audience and you've gotta always ask the question, what people, especially here do, and especially now because of social media, 'cause what they get fed, they say, oh no, people like this person. I say, why? 'cause your friend group likes it.

Because you're a little, 'cause because you like it. So you get fed this on your feed. No. Yeah. You have to know your audience and really think that way and go out among them and go to what they do. And you've gotta really know where these, who these people are and that's what you have to work for.

And there's a huge, you're right, it's a huge miss when people don't do that.

Srini: Yeah. So let's talk about the technology piece. You say let technology serve your idea, not the other way around. And you mentioned James Cameron. So I I figured he would be the perfect person to really use for this example, because I remember the thing that always stayed with me from entourage when Cameron is in there for cameo one of the characters says oh, Cameron makes one movie every 10 years.

And it becomes Like a smash hit. And the funny thing is, I've looked back and I'm like, wow, they're actually spot on. He does only make one movie every 10 years. I read his biography and it was like he's the only guy who doesn't work with agents. He's basically bucked the system. But from what I'm told, some of the reasons those movies take so long is because the technology hasn't caught up yet, it.

Larry Kasanoff: My, my point in the book is not Jim is great with technology and filmmaking, but it's not per se about Jim, it's about the notion that that are you using technology for your goal? So in filmmaking, it's to tell a story. And I example I think is a little bit better of the point is we also make theme park rides.

And one of the first theme park rides we made was for Star Trek. And we wanted to u to have a moving stereoscopic three D camera, which didn't exist yet. 'cause stereoscopic cameras had always been stationary. So we sold the idea that Paramount, we sold the idea to Star Trek, you were gonna walk inside a Borg cube, which is the bad guys space camp, so to speak.

And. We thought we knew how to do it, which is how I always think you should start technology in a movie. I think, but I'm not sure. But it was really, 'cause we wanted to get this shot and then we sold to Paramount and then we went about finding another company and working on a camera and getting it done and so forth, which we did.

And it was an incredible success because. We just used technology for a goal, and around the same time that kind of spurred a new movement in three D, everything. And A company came to see us, a big studio, and they said, we're starting a three D network. Can you make stuff for us? We said, sure, what do you want?

They said, we don't know. We said who's your audience? They said, we don't know. And I said, why are you doing this? And they said three D is a big thing now, right? And they were up and gone in six months.

So I believe that in any business, technology has to be based on . Story. The first time I read Terminator two, I was like, how the hell did we do this?

But Jim already knew. So it was, he's using technology to tell the story versus saying, oh my God, here's a gizmo. I should invent something around it. I think you always have to do technology to get across your broader goal because the last thing you want in a movie is the audience to say, wow, that's really good technology.

You don't want that. If they're noticing the technology, they're not eng contraption in your movie,

you want em to say, wow, what a great dinosaur. Then later maybe they say, how did they do that? But they shouldn't be focused on that. You shouldn't draw attention to it. You don't notice your cell phone anymore.

It's something you're used to.

And that's what I think is important. So I think technology is an implementer or a tool for getting your creative idea across.

Srini: Yeah. It, it's funny you say that because I've talked to a lot of early podcasters and they start telling me about the, their plans to spend all this money and all this recording equipment. I was like, wait, but nobody listens to your show. Why would you do that? And Seth Godin in one of his audiobooks had this He was talking about Iass and this American life, and he said nobody who listens to this American life ever says, did you hear how good the sound quality was on the most recent

Larry Kasanoff: Exactly. Yes, that's exactly right. That's a great point. What's interesting? If it wasn't as good, they would somehow, subtly notice it.

Srini: Yeah. Oh I didn't use a proper recording mic for so long, but one of our listeners was so nice. They're like, I love your show. The sound quality sucks. I sent you a microphone.

Larry Kasanoff: That's great. Did you change that?

Srini: Yeah, of course. Cause at that point we were a hundred episodes in. At that point I understood. But at the beginning I was just like, I have an idea. I'm just gonna keep going and see where it takes me.

Larry Kasanoff: Sometimes too, like in the movie business technology now makes people lazy. For example you shoot on a digital camera with eight k, meaning a really ton of information on the chip from your shot and figure. I'll light it later. I'll fix it later. I'll do it later, which is.

A lazy way to do it, and it doesn't really work. It works to an extent, but it doesn't work as good as still taking care and caution to light it and do everything correctly, but it does make people lazy and sometimes makes everything worse because of that.

Srini: Yeah. So like we do these narrative episodes occasionally where we put together clips of different episodes and try to construct a story and sure, could we do that with ai? Yeah. But we wouldn't be able to do it as well because the foundation just isn't solid. I.

Larry Kasanoff: I agree with that and I, and I think that's a problem and I think the audience. Somehow knows that, you know what, I can't, we can't talk about this much, but where I was just in Israel and Jordan and we're prepping , I hope actor strike today. But we're prepping a huge movie on the Silk Road, which is all shot on location in the, in these great unusual, exotic locations.

And technically we could do the whole thing in a green room in Santa Monica. I just don't think it'll be as good. I think the audience subtly will notice it. This technology is great for certain things. But other things, it's not the best way to get your story across

Srini: Yeah. Let's talk about this final guideline, which is once you've created your idea, never let go. Right,

it's an interesting one because what if your idea sucks?

Larry Kasanoff: Look, I'll answer that in question in two ways. First of all, again, as you said earlier we have these kind of chats on podcasts. We tend to talk about all the successes. A lot of them, they don't always work. No one bats a thousand, but so what? But if you don't do that, you're gonna fail.

If you do it you'll hit it sometimes. So the best example of that is, again, dirty Dancing which we, which was a movie that another studio had started, stopped. We bought it out of there. It wasn't going well. That's when we brought in Jimmy and Michael. And the first, one of the first things Jimmy and Michael did is to look at some of the music that had already been done for Dirty Dancing and Fix it.

So the song Time of My Life, the big hit song from the biggest hit song from the movie was originally a high falsetto song. It was not the song you hear today, and Jimmy and Michael rerecorded it. With it was a deep, lower, slower song with a great voice Bill Medley of the Righteous Brothers.

And then they sent it out to everybody, the record company, the director, managers, and everyone didn't like it. And they said, we need you to do this change. We need you to do that change. Would you please fix it and do another version? And Jimmy and Michael said sure, of course. We'll do it.

No problem. Three weeks later they sent them version two and with a note saying, listen, we sent this version to some radio stations. In those days, radio stations really helped you promote albums. and they like it and everyone came back and said, thank you so much. Thank you for doing that. That's great.

The radio stations like it. We're so happy now. We really appreciate your cooperation. So the question is, what great musical change did Jimmy and Michael do between version one and version two? And the answer is nothing. They didn't

change a thing. They just changed. They just changed the label to say version two and the and because, and they doubled down.

They sent it to more people and they sent it to radio stations. At least the record companies and managers and stuff were still in the family, so to speak. Now they send it out into the world. They doubled down. They didn't list anybody. They sent it to more people. And when other people read a note saying the radio stations liked it, they all loved it, but they knew what they had.

And that song won. The Oscar for Best Song and the Grammy for Best song that year had they listened. It wouldn't have.

So everyone tells you to listen to people more, and I think you should know your audience, but in general, I think you should listen less because great things aren't made by not taking chances.

And yeah. Will you fail spectacularly? Sometimes, of course.

But I think better to fail spectacularly and succeed spectacularly than again, let that current of the river of life drag you to the middle, because that's not how you make great art. That's not how you make great products, I don't think that's how you make great anything.

Srini: Yeah. Yeah it reminds me of the story. Like we, we were rebranding our show in 2014 and prior to this, it was a podcast for bloggers called Blogcast fm. And I remember putting out a Facebook status update saying, we're changing the name of the show. And I had all these people who are like, why are you changing the name?

It's such a great name. And we wouldn't be here today if we had stuck with that name.

Larry Kasanoff: Yeah so you do it

Right. So you did it. You knew you had a good idea and you sucked. And that's really hard to stay with these ideas. Spider-Man took 25 years to get to the screen and at 25 years, and now look at it it's unbelievably successful for years and years.

But it wasn't overnight. People

just stuck to their guns. And I think that again, it's the persistence thing and it is a touch of the madness. 'cause there's times when you're losing money and everyone's telling you're crazy and you're like, Nope, I'm right. I'm right. I'm right. I'm right.

I'm right.

And if you believe it, you've gotta stick with it.

Srini: I think that makes a beautiful place to wrap up our conversation. I have one final question for you, which is how we finish all of our interviews. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable,

Larry Kasanoff: I'm sorry, say what? Say that

again.

Srini: do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Larry Kasanoff: Unmistakable.

Srini: Yeah, I.

Larry Kasanoff: I think it's a combination of the two things I talked about. I think it's phenomenal drive with incredible creativity or charisma. And, I think that's, I think that's it. I've met some really ex I've been fortunate, met some really extraordinary people, and I like extremes.

So I really go all over the place to do that. And I I'll give you an example. I I made a movie about, and I'm very friendly with a group of of Buddhist monks. And I've also done a lot of work with us, special forces soldiers, and I've come to believe that those two groups are incredibly similar.

Now you will look at them and think no they're not, because Buddhist monks are all peace and these guys are . Not peace, not so peaceful. But in reality, they both have done extraordinary mind control. 'cause even the Special Forces, it's all mind control in pursuit of peace. They just have different tactics.

But you see either of these people and you realize they're incredibly committed to what they believe in. My monk friends are, they don't just talk the talk and neither of my special forces friends. Friends, and they're, they have incredibly strong ideas. So that combination of those two extremes great idea, creative or otherwise.

And the commitment the pursuit of it and the firing the belly is what I think makes people unforgettable. And that is what I call a touch of the madness.

Srini: Amazing. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story, your wisdom, and your insights with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you your work, the book, and everything else?

Larry Kasanoff: Oh, they can just go to a touch of the madness.com and there's a website to pre-order the book if you want. It comes out in September, but there's also lots about us and Threshold and what's coming up and our other projects. So a touch of the madness.com.

Srini: Amazing. And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that. Awesome. You were great. Thank you so much.

Larry Kasanoff: Thank you so much. That was really

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