Laura Martin | Unleashing Your Productivity Potential: Insights from Google's Executive Productivity Advisor

Transcript

Srini Rao:

Laura, welcome to the Unmistakable Creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Laura Mae Martin:

Thank you so much for having me.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, it is my pleasure to have you here. So you have a new book out called Uptime, a Practical Guide to Personal Productivity and Well-being. And when I found out that you were Google's executive productivity advisor, I figured, OK, this is somebody who probably knows a hell of a lot about making people productive. And there will be something different in here that I haven't heard before. And as I mentioned before, we hit record. I did find something invaluable in this, all of which we will get into. But before we get into the book, I want to start by asking, what did your parents do for work?

And how did that end up shaping what you've ended up doing with your life and your career?

Laura Mae Martin:

So my parents met getting their MBA and my dad started at IBM as an intern and he was there for 38 years. So he did a variety of roles in computer science and then kind of worked his way through HR. My mom left work to work at home as I like to describe it. So stayed home with us and they're very different even though they kind of had similar jobs when they met. And I think that has shaped.

my skills and the way I grew up. And my dad is kind of like me, he loves a to-do list and he loves being organized and was like our trip planner. And we went to Disney and every moment was planned, every meal. And then my mom has more of a style of waking up and thinking, oh, I wonder what I'm gonna do today. So I think it was a little bit of a good mix and helped me learn some of those organizational skills. And then also.

the value of spontaneity.

Srini Rao:

Yeah. What do they teach you about making your way in the world where you encourage to go and do something practical and stable? Uh, because I've got a joke with Indian families, as I've mentioned a thousand times, I mean, you work for an Indian CEO for God's sakes. It's like Dr. Lawyer, engineer failure is kind of the default narrative.

Laura Mae Martin:

Yeah, they were definitely like, what is your passion? And then how are you going to follow that? You know, I think because I was excited about business, even in high school, I was in business clubs and doing kind of like mock presentations and stuff that obviously they were excited about that because they happen to be in business. But you know, my brother played poker as his career for a while. And you know, my sister was looking to become a vet. And so they were all just kind of like, you know, whatever makes you the most happy. So I know that's not the case for.

for all parents, but I had that privilege of them just kind of fostering what I was most passionate and happy about.

Srini Rao:

So I also read on your about page that you won the quiz bowl in high school.

Laura Mae Martin:

Yeah, still one of my top accomplishments. I was in that marketing club and we had, you know, won the state competition. It was like marketing questions. And I was definitely what I would call the weakest link of my team. And, you know, I had some three all-stars, but I did answer one of the last questions at the international competition that helped us win. And it was so simple. I think everyone else was overthinking it, but they said.

What's a group of people who work together to achieve a goal? And it was totally silent. And I was like, this might be my chance. And I buzzed in and I was just like, is it a team? And they were like, yeah. And so that was my big contribution. But I knew all the questions. I just wasn't as fast of a buzzer as everyone else.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, I'm curious, like what kinds of skills habits, you know, discipline you brought forward from that? Like, what did you learn from that experience? Because like, for me, that was the high school band. I, you know, if I learned any, if there's anything that taught me about habits, practice and discipline, it was banned. So curious, like was quiz bowl something like that for you in high school?

Laura Mae Martin:

Yeah, I was part of a larger club called Deco, which was, you know, association of marketing students doing those kind of like mock interviews. I still I've never missed a year. I still volunteer and go back to this day because I feel like it gave me so many of those skills that are.

Hard to describe when you're a high schooler. You don't, you know, you're in a club, your friends are doing it, it's kind of fun, you get to go on trips, you don't know why. But I think I came out of that really understanding key things like how to present myself, how to talk to an adult that was a stranger, which is kind of like a weird skill, but that helps so much with interviewing. You know, not stranger danger, but just, you know, in a situation where I've never spoken. You know, I did role plays where I.

I had to pretend to be a store manager and someone wanted to purchase an item of clothing from my store that was damaged and we had a policy that we didn't sell damaged goods. So I had to explain to somebody that I just met in a way that they understood and was socially appropriate about policies. Doing that as a 16-year-old is a little bit rare. So I think that having those type of skills led me to be.

be able to present myself, be better at interviewing, be more confident in myself. And so that's why I continue volunteering, you know, 18 years later, because I feel like it gave me so much.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, the reason I laughed is because I was thinking back to business school and I had classmates keep in mind these are American born and raised classmates educated here in the United States, worked at American companies and when you would hear them present, I was just like who taught you how to speak English? How are you this like, you know, inarticulate when you get up in front of an audience? Like this is mind boggling to me that, you know, people don't understand how to do this.

Laura Mae Martin:

Yeah, I think it's like one of those things, you know, I've seen people push for classes that are just about some of these basic life skills. And I think that that's one of those things where, you know, you can learn chemistry and things you may like to learn, but may never use, but things like that, it's like no matter what, you know, my sister was in that club and then she ended up pursuing veterinary medicine and she still used those skills, you know, to interview for vet school, things like that. It's like, no matter what, you need those skills to be able to speak to people, present yourself, you know.

have an argument, deliver it, you know, all of those things are important no matter what.

Srini Rao:

Well, I also know that you have three kids and I'm wondering this weird of a question as this is, how much of your actual sort of productivity philosophy, you know, gets integrated into both, you know, your parenting and how you kind of advise them to manage their lives.

Laura Mae Martin:

Yes, I would say a lot. You know, I think, you know, the version of me that you read in the book, and I do sprinkle in some of the personal productivity piece, but you know, I had a couple of the people working with me on the book. They started following me on Instagram and I was sharing like, you know, tips about parenting and how to organize kids' clothes. And so you always know where they are each season. And they were like, this is stuff that we didn't even know you were doing like in the background. That's a whole other part of...

you know, productivity that it's not about effective meetings, but it's kind of just the same flow where it's like, you know, having good systems, having good routines, knowing your energy. And I talk about that a lot in the book, you know, even with my kids, I could tell there's certain times of the day where they want to do certain types of things. There's certain types they'll pay attention to a book, and there's certain types they won't. So that even transcends to you in the workplace and saying, I know this about myself. I'm better at, you know,

responding to emails or really diving deep into something strategic at this type of day. And I need to prioritize my time in order to do that better. And so I think that, you know, there's a lot of similarities and it's, you know, personal and professional productivity is kind of how I view my expertise.

Srini Rao:

Walk me through the trajectory that leads you from college to writing this book and working at Google.

Laura Mae Martin:

So when I graduated from college, I started at Google in sales. And I wasn't sure I wanted to do sales, but I was excited about Google and moving away into a new location. And so I actually was in sales at Google, and I took a really great course there called Foundations of Leadership. And it was a strengths finder about who you are and what your strengths are. And it actually said, your strength is harmony.

and at the very bottom of the section it said, do not do sales because you do best when you are, you're helping other people and you all are in harmony and you're doing good and they're doing good. And so sales kind of like pushes the, pushes the envelope, pushes, trying to get people to do something they're not sure they wanna do. And I was like, that actually explains why I haven't been like super excited about this role. So that kind of changed my perspective and I started doing more.

work in like event planning and things where I was organizing things for other people and everyone was having a good time and That was definitely more of my skill set and Google has a program where you can focus on something using 20% of your time That's outside of your core role. So I was getting a lot of requests people saying hey, I'd love to

have my email look like your email and how did you do that and how is it that you're managing your time so well with client calls or these events that you're doing. So I started teaching on the side these trainings on email and time management. They were internal, sometimes I would get requests to do them external and it started working its way up to where I was meeting with executives and teaching them one-on-one some of these tactics. And so that...

developed into a full-time role where I was given the ability to basically develop productivity at Google from the ground up. So including, you know, trainings, weekly newsletters, these tips internally and externally about our products and how to use your time. And so that's my full-time role now, which I've been doing about seven years, is that one-on-one coaching with executives in addition to running my scalable program.

Srini Rao:

Yeah. Well, I think that there are two questions that come from that. And then I promise we'll get to the book. The thing that strikes me is that you were actually told like you were able to find sort of a match between talent and environment. And I feel like any time you have poor performance as somebody who basically was fired from every job, I was like, OK, this took me years to realize it was like if you mismatch talent and environment, you're inevitably going to get shitty performance. Nobody ever asks the question.

whether this person is in the right job to begin with, they basically put you on performance improvement plans, which I always say are just a way to avoid wrongful termination suits. But you were lucky in doing that. Like why do you think that happens? And I'll have to tell you about my one Google interview experience after that.

Laura Mae Martin:

I think you put it such a good way because I think they're actually, what I didn't include there was a couple of like major setbacks. So I really thought I wanted to join like the product team. I was like, I know these products better than anyone. I'm so productive. I should be the one advising on these. And that just like kept not working out. And I was in another event role and I was teaching all these trainings on the side and I was like, why am I not getting promoted? And my manager was kind of like, well, you know, you're doing events, you're doing them well.

But all this stuff you're doing on the side isn't directly related to your job. And so I think that's one of those situations, like you said, like I wasn't in the right role at that point. I had a skill that wasn't being recognized. And so I call it success on your own terms. I didn't want to bend who I was and what I was passionate about to get promoted in an event planner role, which is ultimately not the big, big thing that I wanted to do. And so I think that some of it is, quote, luck.

Do you have the right skills at the right time in the right role? And that's really where you thrive, something you're both passionate about and talented and the environment allows for it. But I also feel like, just like you said, when somebody isn't performing or they're not happy or people say to me, well, I can't set boundaries at work because I have to work all these hours. And it's like, well, is that the role you really wanna thrive in? And maybe it's just not a fit. And so kind of thinking outside the box of like, what is a totally different role that...

you really could have all these skills and do really well. And so I think everyone has to find that.

Srini Rao:

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you something like this was probably when we were in 2024. Now, so this was the summer of 2008. You know, Google didn't recruit at Pepperdine where I got my MBA, but there was one alum from the school who happened to work at Google. And I kind of knew how to work the system because I literally started sending out my resume for internships the second week of school knowing that most people would wait. And I remember I got an interview with Google and it was excruciating. I remember thinking I was like,

Why are you asking me about every decision I've made ever since high school? And, you know, like, I remember this very distinctly, because even in investment banking interviews, or consulting interviews at Berkeley, they would ask you these, you know, ridiculous brain teaser questions. And I was terrible at them. Like the, you know, how many golf balls can you fit in a 747? My answer to that question now is unless Richard Branson and I are doing ecstasy together, I don't see any reason I would need to know how to do that.

Laura Mae Martin:

That's funny. I think that a lot of those questions are just hoping to really dive into your thought process. And so, you know, if I ask a question like that, I've never asked that question, but in an interview, just not really a tell me about a time, but more about the, you know, how would you handle this situation? And I think it's just to ask someone, for example, when I did an event interview for an event coordinator, and I'm asking, you know, this goes wrong.

What do you do? And it's like, I'm not looking for any specific answer. I'm looking, are they going to think about the resources they have? Think about how they can delegate to get something if it goes wrong. Thinking outside the box, are they working off a checklist? Are they circling back and having a note somewhere that helps them not ever forget that at another event? So just kind of like the easiest way to get into someone's mind, I would say, is just trying to figure out like, how can they articulate what they would do in this situation?

Srini Rao:

Yeah, I mean, I think the other thing I read the How Google Works book, if I remember correctly, that was the one that Eric Schmidt wrote. And I remember reading how the hiring processes evolved and changed because I remember when I was at Berkeley, it was like, if you didn't go to Berkeley, Stanford, Harvard, or one of these top five schools, Google wouldn't even look at you. And on top of that, it was like SAT scores mattered. But I've heard this has changed over the years because they missed out on a lot of talent.

And the story that always stayed with me was the Kevin Systrom story where he wanted to get promoted to a PM, but he wasn't a computer science major. And so they passed on him doing that and he left. And I so distinctly remember that. I'm curious, has that evolved and changed now? Is it still sort of this rigid, hey, you know, because like I would think somebody like me based on my grades, my SAT scores, all of that, like, you know, at that time I was like, there's no way Google would even look at me.

Laura Mae Martin:

Well, I went to UNC Chapel Hill, so definitely not one of the Berkeley Stanford schools, but a great school. But I think that one thing I really like is that Google values all different types of backgrounds. And so one of my first managers at Google, he was...

somebody who had started his MBA, then quit, got into real estate, started a clothing company, did an experiment being homeless for a while, then wrote about it, biked across the country, and then worked at Google in sales. And I think that then and even more now, Google really values different backgrounds because they produce different ideas and different results. And on my sales team, I was paired with someone who had majored in

in art, I think art history in college. And she had just applied to a role at Google and gotten it. And she was such a good compliment to my more businessy background. And so we were one of the most successful payers because of that. And so I think that they continue to do that and just say, how can we get these unique perspectives, unique people, unique backgrounds, unique experience? Because that's what keeps a company innovative and fresh and always moving forward.

Srini Rao:

Well, let's get into the book. One of the earliest things you say in the book when we start to define this idea of productivity is too often productivity has been defined as how much we check off our list, but how do we know that the things on our list are the right things? First off, how did we get to this narrative of crossing off a number of things on a list? How did that become our de facto understanding of what it means to be productive?

Laura Mae Martin:

I think that started with maybe the industrial revolution where output and assembly lines and units per hour per person, that kind of came into play, which is like, how much are we executing on? What's the result of these inputs? And so that's, I think, where it started, where it just became, how much are we churning out? How much are we getting done? And that turned into how many sales calls are we making? How many units are we selling? Which are still important metrics at a macro level.

productivity is so much more personal and you have to think of it differently when you're thinking of your own individual productivity.

Srini Rao:

Well, you say that when your intention matches your action, it's productive and you say productivity is defining clearly what you want to do, setting aside the right time and place to do it and executing well within the designated time. So that sounds ridiculously simple. Why the hell is it so hard for people to get things done? I'm like, I'm baffled by people when I look at their schedules and see how they manage their time. I'm like, it drives me insane when I look at how certain people work like this.

because I don't, but I also have a tremendous amount of control over my time.

Laura Mae Martin:

I think that what happened is people, we kind of got into this like, which I talk about in the book some, the busy is important. And I always talk about the Seinfeld episode where George says, pretend to be stressed and it looks like you're doing a lot. And I think that that's just continued in some sense. So there's a little bit of badge of honor saying, this is how many meetings I have. And oh, I'm so slammed and I'm so back to back and I have so many meetings and I have a million unread emails and it's kind of this like badge of honor. And I think that

you know, what I've been trying to push is balance is the new busy. So it's, it should be cool to say, no, I have a little bit of breathing room in my schedule or I'm really on top of things or, you know, I'm not, I'm not too busy. I'm, I'm totally aligned with my priorities. Like nobody says that. And for some reason it makes you feel like I'm maybe not working hard or something like that. Um, so I think that's, that's one of the first pieces of it, but I also just feel like we have a lot of split energy, which leads to

Srini Rao:

Yeah.

Laura Mae Martin:

having a hard time getting these things done. So if you, like you said, when you look at how people are working, if I sit down with an exec and I look at their calendar and it could be, oh, you know, they're in a one-on-one, then they're in a skip level, then they're getting a product presentation, then they're having a coffee chat, and then they have to present something, and then they're in an HR meeting. And it's like, can you imagine if you were like plotting your energy or like what type of mood you're in and all over the place with that type of schedule? And then PS, you have to somehow fit, you know, email and work within to that.

And so I think it's just we haven't taken enough control of what I would say is energy, which then actually plays out in your time and your schedule to really, really care and say, no, I really wanna have like three product meetings back to back so that I'm really in the zone on product and really focused and intentional during that block.

Srini Rao:

Well, it's kind of funny that you mentioned this busy thing because I remember my last job before business one, I won't name the company, but I had been put on a performance improvement plan for like the 15th time in my career realizing at that point, I'm like, I'm probably not meant for a day job. And then about a month or so before, after I found out I got into business school, I was like, I need to figure out how to make sure I can stay here for two months until the rest of the summer. So I get a little more cash.

I literally sat around watching episodes of 24 of my iPod video. And when I submitted my resignation, they're like, you've become such a great example of leadership. And I'm thinking to myself, wait a minute, I busted my ass and I got put on a pro performance improvement plan. And I sat around watching 24 and now I'm a great example of leadership.

Laura Mae Martin:

Yeah, I think that's probably one of those situations where, you know, like you said, is the role you're in match, like your skill set match what they're looking for. It's just kind of like you happen to be in a place where they were valuing something that were or weren't doing. But I think it's just, you know, the busy is not an important thing. I think it does start at a cultural level where it's, you know, I tell execs, you own that piece. You have to say things like

not going to check email this weekend in order for it to be acceptable and cool for your team to do that, or you have to unplug on vacations in order for your team to undo that. And so I think that it does start there, but it can also start bottom up where you kind of set those standards saying, this is how I'm spending my time. You know, I always give the example of the busy piece if I, which is actually true, my top output score on my stationary workout bike.

is not from a 45 minute regular class, which I typically do. It's from a 30 minute interval class that I did. And so if somebody was watching me in those two situations, they would say, wow, she's taking a lot of breaks, or wow, she cut off 15 minutes early. But because I had those rest times, those down times, and I was able to work at a different pace, I actually had more output, did better in the long run. So even though I didn't look as quote busy the whole time and worked shorter, you know, I had.

burn more calories or whatever the output score is.

Srini Rao:

Well, let's talk about time management in particular. And let's look at it from the standpoint of something you say. You say, don't plan for you, plan for future you. Psychology tells us that we all have a disconnect with our current selves and our future selves. If we ask ourselves, what will future me wish I had done right now, we find our schedules smoother, our priorities crisper, our output more effective. And I'm sure you've heard of our temporal discounting bias that all humans have. So how do you mitigate that? Because I can...

Understand this intellectually like it makes complete sense to me The question is how do you translate that into your actual behavior? Because I'm sure there are days when I'm like my future self would be like what the hell did you do that day? What a waste of time

Laura Mae Martin:

think that it comes it's more instead of like an in the moment thing, I think it's helpful when you're thinking like planning wise. And so I think what I like to do is like put myself in. So if I'm looking at a schedule that I've created for myself, I like to take the time to put myself in that day and say like where is future me gonna hit pitfall. So you know, I think it's easy to look at a calendar day and just say, okay, all the puzzle pieces fit together.

But when I really live that day in my head and say, okay, this is me coming out of a two hour training. What do I wish I had? A break or another meeting? This is me coming back from vacation. What do I wish I had? Two hours the first Monday to catch up or right away jumping into things. Or I think having that moment, and that's one of the tactics I talk about in how to say no is taking that moment to say, let me play out this situation, whether it's,

I'm asked to speak and it's at a time when I may or may not want to go. I think in my head, okay, I'm getting ready to board the plane. Am I thinking, why did I sign up for this? Or you know, I see a recap of the event. Am I thinking, oh, I can't believe I didn't do that. So you know, just using that chance to make a bridge between you now and future you and try to make it a little bit more of a connection so that you're making future you happy more off.

Srini Rao:

Well, let's talk about prioritization and this idea of the rule of three and then, you know, tying that whole rule of three to high impact tasks. Can you explain how that happens like on a day to day basis?

Laura Mae Martin:

Yeah, so I think that a lot of people talk about goals and they're kind of these like large lofty things that they wanna do one day and it's like hard to know exactly how to get there. And so instead I like to focus on priorities which feel a lot more present and there's something that you can do about that now and you can ask yourself by looking at your calendar, am I prioritizing this? And so when I go into a coaching session, I usually ask people, what are your top three priorities? And I feel like before they ever answer, I can almost even tell like how focused they are on them because

they either have them at the ready and they know what they are and they say, yeah, these are the things I'm really focused on right now, or they are like, you know, that's a good question. And that's kind of like a flag that maybe they haven't really thought through. And the reason for three, you know, of course there are gonna be other things, but I talk about the Roxanne and Pebbles example, where, you know, you can't have 10 things that you're really focused on and pouring a lot of time to.

Three is a good amount for our brain to remember. It's kind of those big rocks that you can put in and then obviously you can put in pebbles and sand after, but you have to have the rocks in first. And so when I ask people those three things, I usually can get a gauge of where they think they're spending their time and then we can dive into what are the actual tasks. And the reason I do that is because again, you don't want...

And this is why I call the book a practical guide because I don't like books that describe like big picture ideas and set goals and set priorities. I like recipes, like what exactly are you talking about when you say that? And so in the book I talk about if you say, okay, I want to reorganize my team this year, I'm gonna do a reorg of my team. Well, what does that actually show up looking like on your calendar? How does that show its face in your time? So,

That's why I asked for the high impact tasks because it makes it easier to recognize whether you actually are prioritizing. So reorg my team is big. Meeting with my HR rep is specific. Doing skip level interviews with my team. Setting a visioning hour where I can write out what I want things to look like. Now you're in the weeds of how your schedule should look instead of big, big picture things.

Srini Rao:

Well, yeah, I mean, I was going to ask you, like, how do you distinguish between something that is a priority and something that's a goal?

Laura Mae Martin:

My stance is like the ultimate goal is happiness, you know, like as soft as that sounds. I think it's like anything that you want to achieve as a goal. If I say I want to be the CEO of a company one day, it's really like because I think I'll feel better in the having of that or in the being of the CEO. So I think that more importantly, I should focus on like what should be and that you can have goals obviously, you know, those are those are dreams, I guess I would say.

But I think more importantly should be like, what am I doing today that sets me up for success there? And that should be like, what is my focus right now? And if that says like, I really want to develop a new product that will get me to that point, then again, how am I making sure I do that? That's gonna mean a lot of time coding and I've now blocked that on my calendar. So I think that just translating a goal, if you have one, into like, what does that look like today?

can be more helpful. You know, if I wanna learn piano, that just keeps making its way onto like something I wanna do one day, but like what does that actually look like? That means like me sitting at the piano and me buying a book about learning piano and doing it from five to six today. You know, it kind of like breaks it down.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, I mean, it sounds like basically what you're saying is the goal basically starts with the behaviors and the behaviors of what you prioritize. So for example, you know, for me, it was writing a book, which I got to do. So if one of the goals is writing a book, one of your priorities should be spending time sitting on a damn desk writing.

Laura Mae Martin:

Right, exactly, or outlining, just kind of like, because I think people find it hard to start on things like write a book. It's like, those are one of those things that people just keep saying. So I think, you know, then my goal today becomes outlining or my goal today becomes writing down three things I want in my book, you know, whatever it is, the small things that I can prioritize that I'm spending my time the right way.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, I mean, I'm always, you know, amused when I meet aspiring authors. And I'm not somebody who knows how to sugarcoat anything, apparently. Like I met this girl at a party once and she's like, yeah, I've been working on this book for five years and I was like, five years, what the hell? And she was like, you can't just sit down and write. And as somebody who had basically built a career, I'm writing a thousand words a day for three years, I looked at her and I was like, that is the biggest bunch of bullshit I've ever heard. Needless to say, she wasn't interested in dating me.

But it was just kind of to your point, like, it is really hard to start. Like I've noticed this with so many people, they just cannot get themselves to start on some of these things. Like, do you find that at all? I mean, I'd imagine if you're working with executives at Google, they don't have a motivation.

Laura Mae Martin:

But I think that everybody has those things that they've been meaning to do, they want to do. And what I was gonna say about you is by finding a way to write a thousand words a day, you've obviously found that sweet spot, I would say, of what time do you write the best? In what conditions do you write the best? How do you get in the flow quickly? How do you stay in the flow? All of those things, that's kind of what I define as uptime, is being able to slip into that. She, maybe this person you met, maybe she...

really is low energy in the afternoons. And she was trying to write all the time and get started writing at that point, because that's when she had free time instead of saying I'm going to block out mornings or wake up early to get some of this writing done when I'm feeling energized. So it really can come down to just like finding whatever that right place is for you. So I think in the procrastination chapter, the first thing I talk about is like getting ahead of it, you know, like figuring out what am I slotting the wrong task at the wrong time, because if so, I'm going to feel low energy about them and never want to do them.

And then I have little hacks to kind of like work around those. And so, you know, one of my favorites is, you know, if there's something you've been wanting to do, like let's say I in the book I talk about, there's something I wanted to paint my outside. It was just like an unpainted planter. And I kept thinking, oh, I really wish that was white. And it was just unpainted wood. And so finally, I just kept not doing it. And so one day I just set out, I said, you know what, I'm not going to paint it today, but I'm just going to set out the paint. So I set out the paint. I set out.

you know, some newspaper and whatever else I needed to do, actually do the project, the paintbrush. And then the next day, I of course went to sit outside and drink my coffee and I was like, you know what? This stuff is already out here. I'm gonna go ahead and paint it. And so I talk about like breaking up the preparation of a task and the task itself, like acting like an assistant almost to yourself because it gets you over that mental hurdle. And so there's ways that you can do that, you know, whether it's at work or a task at home. And so you can set yourself up.

by making sure you're in the right mood, but then also kind of like hacking your way through some of these things that you can't just like get yourself started on.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, I mean, that's exactly what I did to get into the thousand word they have it. I basically took Sean Acor's ideas from the happiness advantage where he talked about activation energy. I was like, okay, if you put the notebook on the desk, then you're at a certain point, you're going to be like, well, this thing is here. I might as well write something in it.

Laura Mae Martin:

Yes, exactly.

Srini Rao:

Let's talk about this list funnel idea, because this is another one of those highly practical things that I just caught my attention. I was like, wow, this is great. So how does this work? I mean, you basically see that lists are the backbone of productivity. And people make lists all the time. Most of their lists are ridiculously long and none of it ever comes off.

Laura Mae Martin:

Exactly. And I think this is one of the places that I just like, I wanted this chapter to be so good because I am so passionate about lists. And this is like a list management system that I'd been teaching at Google and kind of like flushed out. And I think people just don't have that system where it's like, you know, we all know when you think of the most ideas or the things you need to do, it's never really when you're just sitting there in front of your list, it's when you're walking the dog, you're driving home, you know, whatever it is, you're in the shower and you think, Oh, I need to send that email as a response to my client.

And so the question is like, how does that action find its way to you doing it? You know, what is the, and so that's where the funnel came from. It's kind of like the main list is all these things that you have to do broken up into types of energy, more like a dashboard. So these are all the errands I have to run. These are everything I have to do on my computer. This is everything, you know, so that they're grouped together. And if you have 10 minutes to make calls, you now have all the calls you need to make grouped. But then more importantly, you're not just always looking at this giant list because that is

deflating, you're thinking, here's all the things I'm not doing, instead of focusing on the things that you know you can accomplish for that week or day. So the idea is you have your capture list, which I would argue is the most important. You have that idea. You have to have a place to put it into action, so pulling it down from your brain and getting it into your list system. But then you have a way of taking this dashboard list and weekly and daily saying, what do I plan to accomplish? And then it has a self-checking system where at the end of the day, if you actually didn't

finish a task that you said you were gonna do, which happens all the time, it's still on your main list, so it's not gonna get lost. You're gonna revisit it again and make sure it gets done. So, go ahead.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, you actually say that one component of peak productivity is having a good inventory of everything you're not doing yet. And I honestly like I've read about Stephen Johnson's Spark file, writer Carol's Bullet Journal. I never thought about just having a note where literally everything that I haven't got to like anything that is on my mind is there in this format. Like I was like, wow, that's actually a really good idea.

Laura Mae Martin:

Yeah, and I think like I give the example that, you know, I was writing this book and I was like down to the wire and I had all these things and I was actually also eight months pregnant and I was like, okay, but I've planned everything out. I know what I need to get done. And you know, I had my main list going and then my son came over a month early and I was kind of like, Whoa, even the best planners can't plan when babies come but I will say that it was a really good test of this system because what happened was, you know, I

had the baby, I spent time with him, took some time off. But when I came back, I had this perfect list of everything that I hadn't got to. I had deadlines written on it. I had, and I just slipped right back into that flow when I was able to. And so I think that that's kind of like what you can create by having a good list system is that like mental security.

of like, I have a place where everything I haven't done is written down, so I'm never going to be like, oh my gosh, I forgot to do this, or I forgot to send this, or forgot to buy that birthday gift, or whatever it is.

Srini Rao:

Yeah. Well, so can you walk us through how items move? You have the three lists, right? You have the main list, the daily list, and the weekly list and the daily list. So the main list makes sense. You've kind of given us a sense of that. So how do things move from one to another? And I think it kind of takes us back into prioritization probably, right? When you're making the weekly and daily list from the main list.

Laura Mae Martin:

Yes. And so this is probably one of the harder things to describe without visuals. And so, you know, all of the templates are on my website, lauramaymartin.com. But if you are starting with this main list, what I think looks like a dashboard, you have that going. And each week you take a look at that and you take a look at your schedule. And yes, you're using prioritization here. And you're saying, what can I realistically accomplish from this list? You can see the deadlines that are written next to the items on the main list and where will I slot them? And so

you know, oh, I really need to build this presentation this week. And when am I going to do it? Cause I think one of the biggest downfalls of productivity is having all this stuff you plan to do or want to do and no idea when it's actually going to fall. And so on the weekly list, you're making that list of like, here are the three things I want to accomplish this week. Here's where I'm going to slot them in based on what I have going on. If I have too much going on, maybe that's where I start declining meetings or saying I need to make a work day or whatever that is.

And then each of those days then becomes what I call like a contract with yourself. So the night before, because each day starts the night before, you're making it essentially hour by hour plan of how do I plan to spend my time? And it's basically saying, I've said that I was gonna do this on Monday, now I'm looking at my Monday and this is how it's gonna flow. And this is where it's gonna go. And this is how long it's gonna take.

There's so much research that if we think about something and write it down before we do it, it's so much more likely to happen. So even your workout or whatever it is you plan, you make that contract with yourself for how your day is gonna go, and you get over that energy of having to say, oh, okay, I've got an hour, so what am I gonna do now? And so it seems like a lot of list making, but it really, I have a calendar in the book that talks about like.

when to do the weekly list, when to do the daily list, how often, you know, it's minutes, minutes a day, and it changes how you work.

Srini Rao:

Yeah. Well, let's talk about this meeting audit that you talked about, uh, in terms of time. Like I loved this zero based, you know, calendaring idea because my primary meetings are interviews, obviously just based on what I do. Uh, but every now and then it'll be like somebody who wants to have a demo or somebody who wants to have a call that literally they could send me a thing via email. Like I've had people, they open up a slide deck and I'm like, stop right there for a second. I don't need to see the slide deck. Just tell me what the hell you're going to tell me.

Laura Mae Martin:

Yeah, you sound like that's kind of like the brand I've built for myself. I say like somebody wanted to schedule a meeting with me and was like, Hey, I know you'll decline any meeting without an agenda. So I really got to write something up. So I think that's, that's good because you want to have a good use of people's time. And, and I think that, you know, especially when people ask to have those types of meetings, I really want the details on what we're going to discuss, what you want me to read beforehand, what you want me to decide beforehand, what you want me to bring, because it also helps, you know,

Like where should I slot this in my energy? So most of the time you're doing interviews and you might know the best time to do those and when you feel best doing those. But if somebody is going to, just wants to have like a coffee career chat, that might be a good thing for you to slot, you know, when you're feeling lower energy and you don't feel like diving into your email or whatever that is. So I think that it's important to know like exactly how it's gonna go down and what energy everyone needs to be in and then you can slot things from there.

Srini Rao:

Yeah.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, I mean, I remember when I was writing my book, even my editor wouldn't schedule meetings in the morning. I was like, never in the morning. Like my interview slot is 10 a.m. to 12 p.m. I try to limit myself to one every day. If I do more than one, it goes downhill. So I figured out a lot of this. But yeah, I mean, I find myself sometimes thinking I should be doing more in the afternoons.

Laura Mae Martin:

Mm-hmm.

Laura Mae Martin:

think that the more important thing is just you know, slotting work in the right places. So I used to tell people all the time that you know, Thursday, I can just feel it. It's just my down day. I've like worked really hard Monday through Wednesday. It's not Friday. And so someone raised their hand and was like, Oh, so you just don't work on Thursdays. And I was like, No, that's not that's not how it works. But I do take all of these like low energy tasks that I have all week when I would be wasting them doing them in what I call my power hours, those big times. And I do put slot them into times where

I know I'm just gonna wanna kind of put on headphones and finish my expenses or respond to emails that don't take much energy or like little design things on my website. And so I think that just knowing those things about yourself, it allows you to just not waste the morning times when you should be interviewing, doing any of those tasks and slotting them. So you don't waste that time, you just use them for different types of tasks.

Srini Rao:

Yeah. Well, can you explain this meeting audit concept? Because I looked at this and I love this. I was like, oh, this is great. Uh, I mean, like I said, I don't, I try to limit the number of meetings I have. If I can avoid a meeting, I will. Other than interviews, I try to like, you know, basically turn down any meeting request.

Laura Mae Martin:

I think what it starts with is that zero-based mindset that I talk about throughout the book and thinking, a lot of times people sign up for meetings the way you sign up for a streaming subscription and then 10 months in you're like, am I even watching anything on these shows anymore? And so I think that a lot of times people don't take the time to look at their calendar and their responsibilities with that fresh mindset. Like if somebody asked me today,

to sign up for this at this level of commitment and this time slot and this amount of time, would I do it? And a lot of times the answer is no, but we just kind of like keep these things hanging around. And so I think by taking the time to do an audit for yourself, it kind of like makes it more methodical. And you're thinking, okay, like now that I'm looking at this, I'm actually spending like four times as much time with person X on my team than I am with my own manager. And so, you know, is that a good comparison when I look.

apples to apples, side by side, you know, time per week. And it doesn't have to be a meeting. It could just be commitments. Cause sometimes we sign up for, you know, a PTA committee and we don't actually know like how many hours is that looking like? And now that I take the time to look, it might be too much. So I'm not signing up next year. So I think just having that observation lens is really helpful and can help you kind of like start to slash some of those things, start to value some of them.

And even the smallest things, when I do this with execs, they'll be like, all right, actually let's take these meetings from 45 minutes to 30 minutes. We can actually group these three people together since we always talk about the same thing. And now we've saved hours in their month, which is so much time when you really start adding up all these little, little changes you can do with that type of audit.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, well, OK, speaking of little changes that create a ton of time, this was one of the most striking facts in the book. You talked quite a bit about tool optimization, which we'll get to. You say a calculation by the education platform Brainscape estimated by learning keyboard shortcuts for your top daily actions, you could save up to 64 hours, eight working days each year.

Laura Mae Martin:

Thanks for watching!

Laura Mae Martin:

I'm such a fan of keyboard shortcuts. And then I found that stat. And now I tell people, if you see me leave my desk early, I did the same work as you. I just use keyboard shortcuts. But I think I talk about it in the book, how at UNC Chapel Hill, we had a course on spreadsheets. And they unplugged our mouse as they came up, disabled it. And we had to learn those. And I still use those 15 years later. And I'm like, how much time have those saved me over 15 years as someone who works in Sheets?

Srini Rao:

Oh, me too!

Laura Mae Martin:

all the time. And so I think that people, you know, they don't realize that doing that little bit upfront to learn how to be super quick and super fast when you're working, that efficiency piece of productivity, that does really, really pay off in time savings.

Srini Rao:

Yeah. All right. So one other thing about optimization, you talked about color coding your folders in a system that makes it more visually interesting. And talk to me one explain to me how I do that because I was thinking about Dropbox folders. Where the hell on your Mac you color code folders.

Laura Mae Martin:

So I think I was talking about Google Drive. So within Google Drive, you can right click a folder and change the color. And then it's visually interesting. And then you're always thinking, oh, all of my green folders have to do with my interviews. And so that can be helpful. I think the basic point of it is just that you are making whatever you're trying to organize visually interesting for yourself. Because like,

Srini Rao:

Yeah.

Laura Mae Martin:

For example, if you like your bedspread, you're more likely to make your bed. You just want those things that please you in order to keep them more organized. So I have a lot of little hacks like that about Google Drive on my YouTube channel, just quick tips about how to make things more organized, more customized, Gmail, Drive, all of those products.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, we'll get to email in a second because that was by far my favorite part of the book. And like I said, I was like, Whoa, this just took something that was taking 20 minutes a day into down to five. So let's talk about digital distractions. I mean, like the irony of all of this is you teach productivity at Google, and chances are people are probably distracted because they're searching for shit on Google.

and end up, you know, like one of my old teammates described it as he was like, yeah, he was like, I was looking for something on YouTube. And an hour later, I was an expert in beekeeping.

Laura Mae Martin:

I think sometimes people are like, I don't understand. You teach digital detox and obviously technology has its place in our lives. And there's so much value that comes from being connected and receiving notifications and being able to work on the go and all of these things. But I think that what you really have to ask yourself is, am I working for my technology or is it working for me? And how can you make sure that you still have that

refresh time. And so uptime with a computer, the title of the book uptime means when a device is running, it's on, it's productive. And obviously, even with our devices, we need to power them down, restart them, close the screen or they'll burn out. And so we're the same way. And I think that you just have to be really intentional about it. So one of the big things that I run at Google is the No Tech Tuesday Night Challenge, which is actually going on right now. But it's just saying, hey, from dinner to bedtime, you know, can you take those that time to

totally detached from technology. And I did it as like a little fun thing. Really I did it because I wanted to do it and see if I could do it for six weeks. And I was like, if I ask all these other people to keep me accountable, I'll be way more embarrassed if I don't do it. And it just has turned into such a phenomenon, hearing people's feedback about just like how much better they're working the next day. Like it's more about Wednesday and just how refreshed they're feeling when they wake up and well rested and they're coming up with better ideas. And so I think that,

being off of your technology every single day, obviously isn't as valuable, but you kind of have to find that sweet spot of when am I just powering down and restarting and refreshing and making sure that I'm present?

Srini Rao:

All right, well, let's talk about this idea of sorting email like you sort laundry, because like I said, when I read that, literally now what I do is I use your strategy and then I go in at the end of the day and I just reply to everybody who needs to reply. And everything else is dealt with. Explain this to me, because I was surprised at how effective this is and yet how simple it is.

Laura Mae Martin:

I think that a lot of strategies around email, like we were talking about before the recording, it's, you know, people think, oh, I could do this or inbox zero. I'm gonna have some like app that I use and kind of this like, everybody's trying to solve for it. But I think for some reason, laundry really resonates with people because they know how they do their laundry. Nobody is confused how to do that. And when I give examples of, let's say you did your laundry, like you pulled out a single shirt, you think it's wet, you throw it back in with the dry clothes, like,

when people hear that, they're like, that's so inefficient. Yet that's exactly what you're doing when you are marking an email as unread, or if you're taking a single sock and walking it up to the drawer, and then finding another single sock. And then so the real theory around it is like, sorting, reading, and answering should be totally different activities and should happen at separate times. Same with folding matching socks, hanging clothes. Those should all be separate activities. And so...

The same way we do our laundry, we should empty out our inbox every day. So emptying out our dryer, putting things in baskets based on what we need to do with them next. Things I need to read, things I need to reply, things I just need to review because someone owes me something later on. And so you're putting them into baskets so you've touched them once and then you're maximum touching them twice because now you're gonna go back and actually read those. And just like we were talking about energy, if you're spending all of your time sorting your email and then kind of like responding here or there

oh, now you're in a really good power hour where you could get a lot of work done, but you kind of get stuck reading industry articles that came in. So not only does it help with organizing, it's not just an organizational system, it's really about matching your energy. So when I have those down times that we just talked about, that's when I read industry articles, because I'm glad I didn't waste any productive morning hours reading industry articles. And so it just gives you a system of how to both sort and then...

batch respond, just like folding your fifth shirt, you're getting pretty good at it, and walk all the shirts to your drawer at one time, that's the way you're doing email. And so the book really goes into how to do that.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, I remember David Allen once told me when I interviewed him about, we were talking about email. He's like, do you only take out part of your trash? I was like, of course not. He was like, then why do you do that with your inbox?

Laura Mae Martin:

It's true. And I think that you know, some people think of inbox zero meaning, oh, I you know, they're like, oh, I'll never get there. I have so many emails. But I think the point is like, it's just dryer zero. It doesn't mean that every single laundry basket is addressed. But the good thing is, you know, when you're like, Oh, gosh, where's that pink shirt? You're or that email from your manager, you're not like, I don't know, it's somewhere lost in the dryer. You're like, No, I touched it yesterday. And I put it in my full pile. And I'm aware of it.

Srini Rao:

Mm-hmm.

Laura Mae Martin:

haven't folded it yet, but again, it's that list of things you haven't done, because I think that's what causes our brain stress, is the constant, like, what's in there? I don't know, I don't know, I haven't touched it, I haven't gotten to it, and so this, you know, solves for that.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, I think the you know, what it's funny because like right before as I was reading your book notes, I literally dumped this section into chat GPT. And I was like, generate, generate a visual to like remind me of this.

Laura Mae Martin:

Oh yeah, I'd love to see that. I bet it was something good.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, yeah, it literally like looks like laundry baskets. You know, I didn't make it infographic. Here's something that caught my mind and maybe you could help me solve this problem once and for all seeing as to the fact that this is also an issue I have dealt with, with you even getting to be a guest on the podcast. And it's not isolated to your publicist. But you say when it comes to writing and responding to emails, I like to send the type of emails that I would want to receive. I love when emails are short friendly, to the point bullet it have the

maybe even summarize it at the bottom and include a deadline if applicable. Book publicists do not do this. I know this because I get pitched. It'll be like a mile, you know, long worth of stuff. And they hate me because I'm always like, I'm looking for one thing in there. I've gotten emails that literally say, dear podcast host.

Laura Mae Martin:

I think my always my first advice which I'm sure you do is like send the type of emails you want to receive So, you know anyone who works with me They realize they don't have to include all of the fluff because I don't include all of the fluff And so that's kind of the first start but I think that you know, it's even more with AI and coming into our products, you know, it's Better to say I'm gonna draft an email or ask AI to draft an email that

is the thing, short to the point, includes the ass, because I think it just makes you get more responses. And so I think that we've had a long time of these very descriptive, very elaborate emails that are harder to get to, but at Google we have something called TLDR, which is like, I know it's not just a Google thing, but the too long didn't read tag, and so many times if I do get one of those emails, I get a TLDR at the top.

Like one sentence, if you took one sentence from this email, what would it be? You know, we launched a new product. I wrote a book, it's coming out April 2nd. It's on productivity and wellbeing. That's it. Now here's all the additional details. So I like to use that as well. Just this like, you have one second, what can I tell you?

Srini Rao:

Yeah, I mean, I really hope that you get to go and teach this to book publicists at some point because they're really bad at this. They're awful. Like I had one woman in order to schedule an interview with a guest and the interview didn't happen. It took 50 emails. She asked me the same questions she had asked in every email. And from that point forward, I basically was like, if I ever see a woman an email from this woman again,

No matter where she works, I will delete it. She's pitched two guests and they've automatically gone to trash. Cause I remembered her name.

Laura Mae Martin:

Yeah, I think that it's so much a part of your brand that people don't realize that, you know, that's what I talk about with being unresponsive in email and not having a good system. It's like some people only coordinate with you over your over email. They know they don't know you. They don't know that you have good intentions and you know, you meant to respond to them or whatever it is. Or so it's like you kind of have one chance to make an impression if you're coordinating over email or even chat. And so you need to like make sure you're buttoned up and be responsive and write the right types of email.

Srini Rao:

Yeah, like I said, I mean, I was like completely irritated by the fact that I had to basically show the same information and like seven different emails all for an interview that didn't happen.

Laura Mae Martin:

I'm sorry about that time wasted.

Srini Rao:

Yeah. Okay. So this is actually one of the most interesting things I've heard about routines. And I'll tell you what it brought up from you say, you know, you talk about this idea of when then you say, you know, another way to use when then is deciding where to place things in your home or organizational system, making routines and using the when then model removes the stress and anxiety of remembering to perform tasks before you've done them. This is what I thought of immediately is the amount of times I like I'm having to use an office externally for about a month instead of working from home. That's a whole other

But I realized, I'm like, damn, my headphones are not charged. And it made me, reading that, I was like, the thing I should do is when I get to the house, I should plug the damn headphones in.

Laura Mae Martin:

Yeah, it's kind of like creating those like triggers or memory moments where, you know, so if I was you and if I was coaching you on this, I would say, okay, you want to imagine because then the next question is how do I make sure I do that? And so if you create that routine, which is like, I come in through the door, I plug in my headphones, you know, the one of the things I can help is actually visualizing yourself doing that three times. Like I open the door, I plug in the headphones or having some sort of cue where it's like, you know, right at the door, there's a post-it or my, my headphone charger is like I trip on it when I walk in or whatever that is, but

Srini Rao:

Yeah.

Laura Mae Martin:

I think that when people have say things like, I've been meaning to, or I always feel like I need to more, or whether it's just like the easy stuff like that, or if it's something bigger, like I've been meaning to prioritize self care, it's like, again, when are you going to do that? You need to now make some sort of routine where it's like, I have self care Sundays and I stick to that. And now when someone asks me to do something on Sunday, not that I'm gonna cancel on them because it's my self care day, but I also think.

maybe I should do it Saturday now or whatever that is. So it's just kind of like finding a place for those things you need to do or have been wanting to do.

Srini Rao:

Well, let's finish this up by talking about one last quote that really struck me. I mean, this I didn't know this. I mean, I'm an avid reader, but you said one study showed that as little as six minutes of reading each day can reduce a person's stress level by 68% helping to clear the mind and minimize body tension.

Laura Mae Martin:

Yes, the value of reading I just like went on this huge kick about reading It was just like it was mostly because hearing interviews with the most successful people like Oprah and just you know All these people saying I read a book a week and that led me to start the book a week challenge at Google because I was just like this pace seems to be like The pace that people are doing and why is that and just why is it benefiting so much? and it has so much to do with like

the attention training piece of it. And so, you know, giving your mind, especially if you're doing it without devices and really focused, it gives your mind a way to focus and think without being activated, if that makes sense. And so I think that, you know, reading is just so valuable and important. And if you can find a when then routine, you know, like when I take a lunch break, then I find some time to read, it can really add up. And I just am so passionate about reading, which is just...

It's funny because when I do this challenge, people are basically taking on what I've calculated at the average reading speed. They're taking on maybe three hours a week of additional reading time when they sign up for one book a week. But then people will write to me and say, I'm actually...

so much more productive, even though I dedicated more time of my week to this. So it's just something that's keeping them consistent, more routine, more focused, more relaxed and they're just getting more done even though they added something to their plate. It's kind of funny how it's like the opposite effect you would think would happen.

Srini Rao:

Well, you're preaching to the choir. I mean, because of the nature of my work, you mentioned Oprah, Rob Bell was the one who told me he was like, you know, that I remember I asked him what he had learned about being on tour with Oprah. And he said the thing about the books he's like, that's not an act. She reads every single person's book. And that became my default policy, like for everybody at interview. So as a result, I get through like three books a week. But I like I find if I'm reading on a Kindle on a screen, it doesn't give me any of the benefits you're talking about. Like I can't stand digital books.

Laura Mae Martin:

Yeah, I really like there's something about that, you know, ink on paper, I feel the same way about making lists. Of course, I make digital lists all the time. But I feel like something about writing it down just feels more concrete in my life. So I do prefer regular books as well.

Srini Rao:

Well, this has been really, really useful and thought provoking and insightful. So I have one last question for you, which is how we finish all of our interviews at the Unmistakable Creative. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Laura Mae Martin:

I think that having that passion, like we talked about at the beginning, just knowing that you're doing what you love, you're doing it well, you're feeling balanced, I think that that's when really you strike that sweet spot that everyone's looking for in life.

Srini Rao:

Amazing. Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story, your wisdom and your insights with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you, the book, your work and everything else?

Laura Mae Martin:

at my website, https://lauramaemartin.com/

Srini Rao:

Awesome. And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.

Laura Martin | Unleashing Your Productivity Potential: Insights from Google's Executive Productivity Advisor

Candid Conversations: Elevate Your Thinking with Masters of Their Craft