Loch Kelly | Effortless Mindfulness

Srini Rao

Loch, Welcome to the unmistakable creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Loch Kelly

Yeah, thanks, Srini Rao . Great to be here with you.

Srini Rao

It is my pleasure to have you here. So I met you because you wrote in and you told me a little bit about the work that you do around mindfulness. And given that we are living through probably one of the most sort of chaotic times in history and, you know, as you were joking, uh, you know, me having to reschedule the review multiple times as a test of whether you actually live, you know, what you write about. Uh, but before we get into your work, uh, I wanted to start by asking what I think is a sort of fitting question to kick us off and that is what religious or spiritual beliefs were you raised with?

Loch Kelly

That's right.

Srini Rao

How did that end up impacting where you've ended up with your life in your career?

Loch Kelly

Sure, yeah. So I grew up in the Roman Catholic Church, or maybe it's the Irish Catholic Church, but both my parents were raised that way and my grandparents were born in Ireland. Although interestingly my mother started going to the Unitarian Church when I was in high school. So it was very clear that from my upbringing, even in the Catholic Church, they were

It was the time of kumbaya and folk masses and very casual religious training. It wasn't very harsh, but there was an openness. And I just remember kind of hearing some of the stories, feeling a lot of it was kind of boring and wasn't really taken by the ritual, but I'd hear some of the stories and say like, oh, that's a really good message. Oh.

That guy Jesus was really cool, you know, what he said, you know, so it was kind of like, huh, interesting. Okay. There's a lot of fuss here. What's going on? And, um, so it was, you know, it was a very, uh, open, you know, exploring kind of Catholic upbringing.

Srini Rao

What?

It's funny that you mentioned that a lot of this is kind of boring because I think that has always been my sort of Primarily primary objection to religion is that particularly Indian religious traditions are incredibly time-consuming and half the time I don't even understand what people are talking about because it's another language and But I don't think that the idea that you know religion is boring and time-consuming is something that is you know only I feel I think that's a pretty you know common opinion a lot of people I think you know Catholic in particular It's like okay. I got to do this out of guilt

Uh, so why is that? And then, and then, you know, how do you change that? And then as far as Unitarians go, I remember seeing a Unitarian church in Boulder, like what are the sort of values and tenants of a Unitarian church that are different than sort of any other religion that we are, um, exposed to? Because I had, um, Gregory David Roberts here yesterday, we were talking about his new book, The Spiritual Path and EnchantROM. And I was like, okay, I'm like, explain the difference between religion and spirituality. And he said, well, he's like, religion has bankers and lawyers.

Loch Kelly

Uh-huh.

Loch Kelly

That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, so that makes sense. Yeah, spirituality. Yeah, I know that often I will say to people, you know, whether you're religious or spiritual, but not religious, or consciousness, but not spiritual, but not religious, you're welcome, because everyone does have a different approach to what the ultimate...

nature, whether you can define that kind of metaphysical or theological or ultimate, how clearly you can define that, I think is one of the things. And religions tend to be very, you know, as you say, lawyerly about it. This is the, you know, these are the tenets. This is what this God or gods, you know, are about. Here's what they wrote, you know, or transmitted. And here's the particular

commandments etc. where spirituality is a little more of an open feeling but still has a sense there's another dimension beyond materialism and science. And then consciousness is on that next borderline feeling of okay maybe there's spiritual or at least the unknown, undefinable, and but is there

Srini Rao

Yeah, yeah, that was cool.

Loch Kelly

you know, there's something else bigger than just being an animal that is of interest and that can be explored. And so, yeah, Unitarians, I think, were part of the Protestant Reformation that tried to be as rational as they could. So they would take out some of the theological beliefs and bring in

the highest principles? What are the highest principles of love and fellowship and connection to others and service and social justice and things like that?

Srini Rao

Yeah, I have to ask you about this whole idea of consciousness because I remember when I first moved to Encinitas, there's this Facebook group called the conscious community. And after reading the posts in there, I remember texting my friend Charmaine, I was like, Can you please tell me what the hell it means to be conscious? Because based on what I'm seeing in this group, I'm concluding that it means you're out of touch with reality.

So since I have you here, can you expand and actually explain what it means? Because I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean, you know, lighting scented candles and talking in esoteric language where somebody is, you know, speaking English and you feel like you need a translator to understand what they're talking about.

Loch Kelly

Yes.

Loch Kelly

All right.

Loch Kelly

Yeah, I mean, that almost sounds like, well, some people, psychic or esoteric or, you know, certain kind of spirituality.

Srini Rao

Bullshit.

Srini Rao

pseudo profundity is what John Petracelli. Yeah, I mean, John Petracelli calls it pseudo profundity, which basically people say, think things that sound profound and they're so difficult to understand, but they actually mean nothing.

Loch Kelly

Yeah, could be, but I'm very open because I do have a feeling that having known so many people from so many different backgrounds and histories that at certain points people very sincerely are trying to be authentic or find meaning. And so, you know, if you ask people, you know, what were you doing 20 years ago in that cult? They were like, I don't know, but I think I was trying to

Loch Kelly

If you had met them then, you wouldn't think they were pseudo, but now they move through that. So I would say that, yeah, consciousness is very important because it is that borderline between science and something that makes us able to reflect, you know, is the first level of consciousness that we're aware that we're aware, you know, where there's a

You know, in developmental psychology, a child before one and a half to three years old looks in a mirror and they won't see that they have a mark on their nose. They won't recognize it's them. They're not conscious. They're a separate creature. Their babies are really kind of dependent, massive energy and feeling that is connected to their environment. And then we individuate.

And there's some level of psychological consciousness that's very important that makes us unique as humans that we develop actually what's called self-awareness at that time, one and a half to three years old. And so you can reflect. And then it becomes kind of complicated because you start to say to yourself, oh, you shouldn't touch the hot stove because you might get burned. Well, who's the first?

one who's talking to you. So you kind of split yourself off into this two part consciousness that becomes self-conscious as well as self-aware. And then the bigger definition of consciousness is some perception of intuition and bigger sense of self and being conscious of feeling love.

and feeling there's some, when you look at the night sky, there's some sense that you're separate, but you're not separate. There's some consciousness that's bigger than us that is intelligent or that even is running intuitively in the background when you're in a flow state or something. You're conscious, but you're not actually mentally

Loch Kelly

thinking about thinking while you're doing that.

Srini Rao

It's funny because after hearing you explain that and thinking about the comedy ringer for the Facebook group, to me it seems like the more conscious you are, the deeper you are in touch with reality.

Loch Kelly

Yes, I would say so, yeah. And the subtler, and I think it also emphasizes there's a subtle dimension of reality that isn't just material, isn't just subject-object, body-mind, personality, that there's some other dimension of intelligence and awareness, and like the difference, you could say the metaphor would be the difference between Newtonian physics, which.

is looking at objects and quantum physics, which is looking at the same information except subtler so that all of a sudden there's this interconnection at certain dimensions and this flow and this movement or even the consciousness of nature. How does it communicate through the ground and the earth? Is it?

You know, so it starts to be this just this what's this that's a little greater than us being only animals that actually lets us be more, you know, kind of more embodied animals.

Srini Rao

Yeah. So I want to come back to all of this, but walk me through the trajectory that has led you to doing this work. What happened after high school? You know, you go to this Unitarian Church, you're raised by, you know, his parents are like part Catholic path, you know, part Unitarian. So how did you end up here of all places? Because this is kind of not one of those careers like pretty much every day interview that, you know, you can ask a high school guidance counselor about.

Loch Kelly

Right. Yeah, so it's.

Loch Kelly

Yeah, no, I mean, there's, you know, two things that happened. I think one actually happened just that I was, through sports, was very intentionally loving what is called, now I know, is called being in the zone or in the flow. And so through, I was kind of a natural athlete and

something that connected me to my teammates, to my body, to kind of this joy and love and egolessness and freedom and being more an animal and alive, but being more free of that bind of the small self or the self-referencing self-consciousness. So there was a time when I was I think 14 or so.

where I heard on TV a sports commentator watching a football game, say, about a quarterback. He's got eyes in the back of his head. And I thought, oh, I know what that is. That's what I do when I play ice hockey goalie. I drop my awareness, I open my peripheral vision, and as I open my peripheral vision, I feel this kind of open mind, and then I continue around almost 360 degrees.

So there's this kind of feeling of a more spacious sense of self that I drop into my body and feel immediately connected with everyone. So if somebody shoots a puck from the blue line through a mass of legs, my hand will shoot out, you know, kind of seeing the first part of the trajectory, and the puck will end up in my glove. So I thought, oh, that's so cool.

And then one of my friends asked me after a game, man, you played a great game, how'd you do it? And I said, you really wanna know? And I kinda started with that. I dropped my body, opened my awareness, and he just kinda, his jaw dropped, he opened his mouth, he went, oh cool, and they just walked away. But I said, okay, I don't know if I should keep talking like this, cause I thought everyone understood this, but I guess not.

Srini Rao

Hehehehehehe

Loch Kelly

But then one of the seniors on the team next practice threw me a book. He said, here, kid, read this. And it was Zen and the Art of Archery. So that just intrigued me. I thought, oh, there is a connection to sports. But then there's this whole other world called Zen that is considered one of the pinnacles of human development in all these other cultures.

What's up with that? Why aren't people talking about that? And so I started this exploration into Zen and what that meant.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm. Well, so how old were you when that happened?

Loch Kelly

That was like 14.

Srini Rao

Okay, that I had a feeling. So one thing I've always wondered, you know, and I've asked people, hundreds of people, some form of this question in one way or another. There's certain people who find that thing, right? Where you, you just get what you're talking about, like you get into that flow state. And you kind of say, there's something here. And a lot of people kind of lose that. Or they never discovered it all when they're young. And for a lot of people, they don't even discover it, you know, when they get older.

Loch Kelly

Yeah.

Srini Rao

I figured it out from surfing and then writing, you know, happened to be a by-product. And when I first started surfing, obviously I hadn't started this show, but as I got deeper into it and started to understand Stephen Kotler's work and, you know, the work of people like Kel Newport, and suddenly I had all the science to back it up. And I thought to myself, well, wow, this is actually the thing that we should be using. It's like, why are we not using, you know, high flow states as a filter for how we make choices about careers? It's like, if this person is in flow, they're going to perform well, put them in a situation that leads to flow, not one that leads to boredom.

Loch Kelly

Uh-huh.

Loch Kelly

Mm-hmm.

Loch Kelly

Exactly.

Loch Kelly

That's it. I agree. Yeah, that's so true, right? Yeah, and so we were fortunate enough to what I call find a doorway. So one of the first things I do when I, and my, just to say that starting from the beginning and now just fast forwarding to now and I'll fill in the in between, but what I do now is help people find a way to access that now immediately, intentionally.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Loch Kelly

in any situation to access what we would call Zen or awake consciousness or flow consciousness. Whatever that is, it's an open-eyed meditation and action, what I call effortless mindfulness that connects, drops you out of your ego and into actually an optimal functioning, joyful, interconnected way of being and doing.

And so I believe that is the next natural stage of human development that we can learn, it's learnable and teachable. And just as you say, well, why don't we do it? Well, and then so I, that's my question that I took up and said, okay, let's do it, you know?

Srini Rao

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so you said you're going to fill in the blanks. So like high school to where you're at, like what happened? How'd you get here?

Loch Kelly

Yeah, and then the other, so there's the, so I combine kind of the kind of wisdom traditions of this more kind of advanced practice meditation with flow consciousness with psychology and neuroscience. So the psychology part came in more when I was a freshman in college, my father developed a brain cancer on the.

left side of his brain. He was a very successful engineer, so the left side was his kind of really mathematical functioning part. And he had an operation and during my freshman year of college, I would go home and see him. He was coming out and he was rehabbing. And so by the summer, he would bring me workbooks at a kindergarten level, first grade level. So here I was just...

you know, coming from childhood to relationship with my father as an equal adult, and all of a sudden now he's the child and bringing me, you know, showing me how good he's doing at a first grade level, second grade level, working his way back up to starting to talk about going back to work in the fall. Then he had another aneurysm and he deteriorated and he passed away right before...

my sophomore year in college. So it was quite an amazing journey to be with particularly my father, my mother, my siblings and I didn't quite have a language to talk about it. We just kind of try to be supportive and none of my friends knew, had that experience either at college or my high school friends. So they'd just be like, what can we do? Let's go do something, okay? Let's avoid thinking about it. So they were friendly in that way, but I never...

didn't have anyone to really talk to that much. I tried actually going to the counseling center I went to that had kind of a Freudian therapist. I lasted three times. He was just taking notes and I was like, okay, that's not gonna work. And then one evening, like late evening in the winter, I was upstate New York at college and

Loch Kelly

coming out of the library where I didn't, I don't think I got much done that day, but I stayed till it closed. And I was just walking down this hill and I just felt this incredible grief and weight. And this kind of from within me or like a voice just said, I don't know if you can take this much longer. And I kind of looked up as if I was looking for like,

Who said that? Where's that coming from? And as I looked up, I literally opened my awareness up and saw this beautiful night sky. And as I did, my awareness just kind of opened out, almost like people describe on a psychedelic trip. But it just opened up into this, ah, out of my body, and all this kind of pressure and pain and heavy grief opened to something that was

literally a felt sense of this space that was just alive and awake and relieving. And so I just started crying and laughing and felt this similar feeling to that zone or flow state. And I was like, oh my God, oh, this is right here. And, you know, it didn't make me kind of try to escape that.

grief, I then became actually more interested in working with it and talking to people and finding others who had been through it. But it gave me this, what is now essentially the foundation of this effortless mindfulness, which is the ability to actually have awareness unhooked from the mind and open to this vast already awake consciousness that's embodied and connected.

and has the capacity to be with whatever's happening, because it's so much bigger and so much more loving, intelligent, and just holding of the storm that's going through the sky.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Wow. Um, you know, I've had probably a handful of guests who've lost parents at such an early age.

And there are two things that I wonder, and this is something I always ask people. One, what decisions did you make about how you would live your life going forward after having lost a parent at such an early age? And the other thing, you know, every time I talk to somebody about this, I always listen and I'm like, I don't think I will ever understand this is one of those experiences that in my mind, there's no self-help book that will prepare you for this. So how in the world? Cause I mean, that literally sounds, this is literally the thing I dread them.

most in life, I think it's the thing that I am most afraid of in my entire life is that moment when that happens. Like, you know, obviously people, you know, I mean, how do you move on with life after something like this, especially at such a young age?

Loch Kelly

Yeah, well that was the thing. I mean, I think in some ways it was a fortunate time to be in college, which is its own kind of world. So I had a little structure, but a lot of freedom to kind of like bounce off of walls and just kind of explore, experiment. And so that was, you know, good fortune. I didn't really ever find many peers who had been through that. I had found one friend who had been through a divorce.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Loch Kelly

you know, early on and so there was some feeling there. But I can also remember that within that same year that I had that initial experience walking around again on my own and kind of going like, all right, so what did my father give me? He gave me like my life, he gave me my, you know, the relationship and support and he gave me this time to be a college.

And so what is it that I want to do that is important? What if I could do anything? I just thought, okay, well, what if I could do anything? Then I will do what I think is most important. I won't just get on the treadmill like my friends and go to med school, law school, or Wall Street. You know, I'm just going to follow what is important. And that's the gift, I think.

that led me to start to follow, to go off to graduate school and then off to Sri Lanka, India and Nepal and meet these other teachers and just keep following what is the most important thing for healing, for living, for loving, for individuals and relationships and cultures. Let's see what's important. And so that...

that gave me that opportunity to ask that question and to follow it.

Srini Rao

Wow.

Well, let's do this. Let's actually get into the work that you do because, you know, I think that for many of us, mindfulness has been one of those things that, you know, we've heard about endlessly. Everybody's like, Oh, yeah, meditation is amazing. And then, you know, people are like, I don't have time to meditate. But then you also have sort of in parallel with this, this sort of narrative around mental health that, you know, fortunately is starting to change. But I can tell you when I was growing up, like, and I think that this is very common among immigrants in general.

Srini Rao

because he turned to the audience. He said two questions from the audience because probably everybody has a thousand questions for Oprah. And the funny thing is she had an African woman who basically said, in our culture, we don't talk about mental health. It's just not accepted. And I understood that growing up. It was kind of seen as if therapy was for crazy people. And then when I was in a therapist office, 36, I thought, what the hell took me so long to get here? I should have been doing this years ago. But I feel like mindfulness and therapy kind of go hand.

Loch Kelly

Mmm.

Srini Rao

and in hand, I know you've been a therapist. So two sort of questions come from that. First, how do we start to change this narrative around mental health that we have? I mean, particularly in the wake of, you know, yet another mass shooting.

Loch Kelly

Yes. Yeah, I mean, I think this is exactly what you say. There's certain taboos, you know, but they're in most cultures. They're different in each of the cultures. But there's some willingness to, you know, educate and read books and study and, you know, that's all supported. But, you know, with all the... It's almost like a privacy

like church and state, it's like mental health and state. It's like, well, you know, we, you know, that's your business, that's your family's business. Just do the best you can and don't talk about what happens behind closed doors. So people end up trying to put on a good face and how are you doing? I'm doing fine, how about you? And there's not a support for.

vulnerability, certainly in male culture, in most cultures. It's like, shake it off and get back in there. Boys don't cry.

Loch Kelly

emotions that go through and in school, you know, there's not really counselors or, so it's relied, you know, relies on the home. So I think, you know, bringing that mindfulness and mental health and finding a way to create peer groups and ways to just make it, you know, normal.

to have feelings. And one of the ways that I do that is through the particular kind of mental health approach, which is based on many of the modern. But basically, I'll give you an example. So basically, the way to deal with it is to realize that the feelings you have are a part of you. They're not all of you.

So if you were to say, if someone were to say, well, I'm feeling really anxious, then the question would be, oh, okay, that makes sense. So are you aware of that part of you that's anxious? Where in your body are you feeling the anxiety? And say, well, it's in my throat and it's in my upper chest. Okay, so now can you really let yourself feel that and then ask for some space or step back?

to kind of mindful witness. And then realize, oh, part of me is anxious. Is there another part? And then, yeah, there's another part that wants to not be anxious. And then the question is, okay, well, who's aware of those two parts?

Loch Kelly

And what that does is it takes you into this open mind or this authentic self that, okay, now from that more authentic self, how do you feel toward that part of you that's anxious? And it's like, oh, I feel compassion, you know, for that part. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, I'm anxious because I'm about to do this thing at work. And yeah, okay. But I'll just be with that part of me that's anxious and just, you know, let it realize, oh, it's, you know, it has.

some roots in my childhood and has some fear of failure and it has some fear of getting fired and it's like, okay, but I can be with it and know that, you know, some of it's also excitement about presenting at work or but let just stay with it and don't try to minimize it. Don't try to kind of spiritualize it away or, you know, or use your rational mind to replace it with positive thoughts. So that's one of the

you know, kind of rational ways of repressing a lot of thinking that's called psychology, but it's kind of just positive thinking.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I think I've read probably a dozen books where, uh, you know, they talk about the actual downsides of positive thinking, which often becomes sort of delusional optimism. I mean, there's a woman named Gabrielle Ottinger who wrote a book titled rethinking positive thinking and people like, she's such a downer. And the funny thing is she profiled all these high performing people. And she wrote about Michael Phelps. And she said, Michael Phelps basically. Imagines everything that could go wrong during his visualization, instead of imagining himself winning a gold medal.

Loch Kelly

Uh-huh.

Srini Rao

Apparently, because he did that, what happened during one of the many, you know, Olympic events that he won, his glasses got his goggles got filled with water and he couldn't see. And he actually had mentally rehearsed what would happen if that happened. And it didn't affect his performance. And yet, you know, we're taught to do the exact opposite. It's like picture yourself on the podium.

Loch Kelly

Yep. Wow.

Loch Kelly

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and realizing there's always what's called polarized parts of us, that that's kind of how we do. So if we have a negative thought, and then we say, well, let's just try to be positive, it's like, well, those two are a little at war. And so this question from more of an effortless mindfulness is, well, who's aware of both those opinions that are? And then you get this third holistic.

feeling that doesn't have to replace, doesn't have to be positive or negative. It can actually be kind of with whatever is from a little more wisdom based perspective.

Srini Rao

So, you know, one of the things that you just said about anxiety in particular was like, can we just sit with that? And can we let ourselves feel that? And from personal experience, I know that my sort of quick, fastest sort of gut instinct is I need to numb this somehow.

Loch Kelly

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

And numbing shows up in numerous forms, right? Whatever grit is for somebody, it's like what their vice is. It's like it could be drugs, it could be alcohol, it could be porn, it could be any one of these, it could be Facebook. Why do we do that and how do we stop doing that?

Loch Kelly

Yeah, so, you know, this, I'll just jump right to this thesis or this effortless mindfulness approach. So, basically, certainly with all the psychology and even the preliminary practices of yoga and mindfulness, it can be very important to start with the body and the nervous system and breath and calming and soothing.

So, you know, doing breath practice, slower, deeper breaths, longer exhales, you know, there's a whole series I do. I have a synthesis of all these I call three breaths, three ways, where I take people through the psychological nervous system and preliminary practices. But then the root of it is the key. The key is that, you know, kind of what I just did, which is that

when that anxiety arises to realize that what it does is it takes over as if it's me. And then it triggers cortisol and adrenaline and then it makes it even more a sense that, oh, I'm anxious, I'm worried, I'm fearful, what am I going to do? And that the root solution is to find the bigger I. In other words, to go to the core of identity, which I, you know, kind of that little...

series is one way to do it is like, oh, I'm feeling anxious, OK, rather than quelling it, numbing it, stopping it, dismissing it, fighting it, fleeing from it, feel it, but then feel another part that that's OK. And then who's aware of those two parts?

Srini Rao

I-

So let's walk through the study on a sort of practical exercise level, because typically, you know, I think that the way we all think of meditation is, you know, okay, I have to sit at my desk and 15 minutes of, you know, just sitting here in silence. And I know for a lot of people, that is incredibly challenging. I mean, I can tell you as a person with ADD, it took me a long time to get to that. And funny enough, mindfulness is often suggested as something that helps a lot with it. And yet the irony is people who have ADD to them, it's like, you're

Loch Kelly

Cough

Srini Rao

You want me to sit still for 15 minutes? Are you out of your mind?

Loch Kelly

Yes. Yeah, that's right. So, yeah, one of the things to say is that that's kind of classical meditation. And it's many forms of what's called sitting meditation or basic mindfulness is starting with not moving, either closing your eyes or half closing your eyes and trying to concentrate on your breath. Certainly, there's other

forms of meditation and movement, certainly people exercise and dance and play music and there's other things like that. But the consciousness part of it doesn't have to be done by concentrating. So for people with ADD and dyslexia, it's almost important to do that something similar to that move.

that I was just talking about is to find this effortless mindfulness, which is more rather than narrowing our focus to the breath, we actually open to be aware from outside of the cloud of our mind from like the sky and then focus on your breath or your body from this bigger field rather than.

from this moving mind, this small mind, which with ADD or most anxious minds is just always moving. So there's this bigger mind that you open to and then focus from it, which is what people in the flow or in the zone are focusing from. So that's one of the trainings that it's kind of a step-by-step. It takes a little bit of time to learn, but not any more time than basic mindfulness.

Srini Rao

Okay, so let's say we were to do that right now. So what would be involved if you and I were gonna, if you were gonna walk me through this exercise right now as we're doing this interview, so that way we have something very concrete. Let's do it just so I can get a sense for what it's like and how it differs.

Loch Kelly

Yeah.

So, all right, so there's a couple different ways to do it.

Loch Kelly

Um, so the premise is that there's an effortless awareness, an effortless mindfulness that's already here. That's called what people call open mind or open heart that is flow consciousness. And it doesn't require the small ego to concentrate or attend or to know, or to focus, it actually is focusing from kind of this holistic, bigger field.

All right, so I'm going to I'm going to I can do a couple of them, but let's try this one. This is kind of an unusual one, but it works. So the sense is that even the meditator or your current small self, which is the one that tries to meditate and tries to become and less anxious, is simply this problem solving program in your mind. It's

It's just trying to like, what's going on inside? Let me solve that. What's going on outside? Let me solve that. Let me, oh, I'm meditating. Let me try to solve that. I'm trying not to be anxious. Let me try to solve that. So if that problem solver were to relax, almost like it's a little pattern of self-referencing thought or a thinker, and if it could just kind of settle down and you could feel, you could be aware

from an already awake flow, we'll just see what that was like. So here's the inquiry that helps many people to feel this. So the idea is I'm gonna ask you to consider this inquiry and then let this problem-solver relax and then feel if you're aware of and then from this awareness of your breath and your body.

in a kind of new way. So that's the setup. So here's the question. So you start with understanding it, but then let your awareness open. So the question is, what's here now when there's no problem to solve?

Loch Kelly

just now. So just understand that as a thought. Then let the problem solver relax and don't go to sleep.

just feel the background awareness that you would when you were like when you're surfing.

or open view, and then rest as that open awareness that's here when there's no problem to solve.

And then from there, remaining open, just focus on your breath.

and your body.

Loch Kelly

and hearing and seeing.

so that you feel the open awareness.

is connected to your body and the world.

Loch Kelly

And what does that feel like when you don't have to create a small meditator or problem solver or thinker?

And yet you can focus.

Loch Kelly

So not going to thought, and not going to sleep, and not going to daydream. There's this natural, effortless mindfulness.

Loch Kelly

or flow consciousness.

Loch Kelly

Just notice the breath naturally happening by itself and the awareness happening by itself.

Loch Kelly

And what do you notice?

Srini Rao

It's kind of funny. Like I realized like, you know, everything in my physical space is much more pronounced. Just everything I can see is, you know, like I'm at my parents house because I'm flying out of the country and, you know, I like, yeah, every it's just like, wow. OK, there's a computer. There's you, me, microphone, you know, my note taking app, which, you know, basically is there just to make sure I have some notes from this. Oh, yeah, it's wow. That's that's shockingly simple.

Loch Kelly

Yep. Yes.

Loch Kelly

Hahaha.

Srini Rao

And while like it's kind of mind blowing, like I'm just like, whoa, what if you like the idea that like, okay, what if you had no problems? You know, cause it's like pretty much we wake up and like, I mean, I'm a CEO of a company. So like my mindset is literally from the moment I wake up to the moment I go to sleep, it's like, what problems do I need to solve today?

Loch Kelly

It's my blog.

Loch Kelly

Yes. Right.

Loch Kelly

Right. And so that's just a small program within the computer that thinks it's me that thinks the best way developmentally is to just keep on it. Keep keep going over it. But what we're doing here is we're actually not going to oh, you know, hippie happy. There's no problems. We're actually going to the flow consciousness, which doesn't need to keep tabs.

of everything you're going to do later today, right now, but it could solve any problem that you wanted to bring forth in a way that's much better problem solver.

Srini Rao

All right, let's talk about that in a bit more detail. So, you know, we get to a state of like, you know, sort of presence that feels, you know, incredibly blissful or whatever. So let's say we actually do have a problem to solve that we're thinking about. Um, I mean, I don't know what it is. It could be, you know what I have to deal with, you know, uh, you know, it, you know, a problem employee or something like that, just, we need a concrete example. So let's just deal with that.

Loch Kelly

Yeah.

Loch Kelly

Yes. Yeah.

Loch Kelly

Yeah.

Yeah, you almost have to bring up something small now, so anybody listening can just bring up just something that's just like, you know, like what am I gonna make for my next meal? Or just, you know, something that takes a little planning mind and... Ha ha ha.

Srini Rao

Yeah, perfect. Perfect. I haven't all I've had this morning for breakfast is a coffee, coffee and some bananas. So let's use that as an example.

Loch Kelly

Yeah, so the key is, can you stay open while the planning mind comes in and just starts like playfully considering like, oh, I could do that or I could do this without going to a small kind of, you know, horse blinder, you know, mental manager that is like.

I better figure it out right away. It's right or wrong. It's what am I going to do about lunch or breakfast? It's like, OK, well, let's see. What's in the fridge? And then allowing that moment of not knowing, like I'm not sure. Is that OK? Yeah, that's OK. So then, oh, I think what I'd like is this. And oh, we do have some of that. And so yeah, there's some.

salad and chicken. Yeah, so I'm just doing it now. I'm like, all right, there's some lettuce and there's some chicken salad. All right, that's good. And then and then done and then drop and then like, okay, that problem. Yeah, okay, that'll be good. All right. And if not, I'll look around. Maybe there'll be something else too. And then drop it. Drop the problem.

And then what's here is this peace of mind.

that's ready for the next. And that thing you describe of seeing everything, it's because your mind is not in the field between you and what you're seeing. So usually it's like a, it's just wrapping around itself and it almost creates this field of fog between you and your vision. So when it drops and you open into this background awareness or flow consciousness,

Loch Kelly

It's like everything's just as it is. There's no interpretation, there's no projection.

Srini Rao

So this is one of those things that I always wonder about because...

Yeah, I remember when we had Emily Fletcher here from Ziva. I was like sold on Ziva. It was been wonderful for me It's one of the few things that I've stuck with for a very long time But I told her I said, you know Why I'm sold on this is not because of the sort of peace of mind that comes from it I'm like you had a line in your book about somebody who said they had a million dollar Year in their business and I think that you know for highly driven people it's kind of like, okay I need an incentive to do this in the minute. I was like, you mean I'll be a better writer better podcast host and make more money I'm like, alright, those are three seriously, you know

solid incentives for me to pick up a meditation habit. So that was why it was sold on it. Because I remember telling her, I was like, you know what, I'm like, Emily, I don't give a damn about being enlightened. Like.

Loch Kelly

Right, right, right. But you do give a damn about feeling the way you feel when you surf.

Srini Rao

Yeah, of course.

Loch Kelly

In other words, so that's the feeling of enlightenment, which means a kind of joy and a presence, an embodiment, a very human, you know, that you're in the world, you're living a human life to its fullest, and you're not struggling. You're not in this small, self-referencing, worried part of you as a central part.

you know, which is the ego center or small self, they call it. And when you awaken from that to this, that's the key is not just, you know, getting rid of your ego in, in this system. Um, your ego just semi retires from being the center and the ego identity. And it becomes a part of you, a function, ego function that then is very helpful when you need it.

Srini Rao

So what are the kinds of changes that you've seen in people's lives as a result of this? Well, that's a pretty solid selling point.

Loch Kelly

They make two million dollars. I'm just kidding with you. Yeah, no, but I do have, it's interesting because I did start to put out this new mobile meditation platform where I have, so I call these short effortless mindfulness micro meditations or glimpses.

because they're not actually meditation states. As you can see, they're actually glimpses of who we are behind the kind of hypnotic trance of the ego. So it's a glimpse of our awake flow consciousness that's already here, that we don't even have to create or develop. So when I've had... I put this up during the...

during the pandemic because I wanted to offer, you know, some simple psychological and meditative solutions. And it's interesting that a lot of the people who have responded and have had the biggest changes and said, my life has completely changed. I feel less stress, less, you know, I'm isolated, but I feel less stress. I'm treating my wife and kids better. I'm, you know, having more, better relationships at work.

working more productively are this young group, 25 to 35. And most of them are CEOs and COOs and of these kind of tech companies. And they're just kind of writing me going like, what is this we're doing here? Because it's like changing my life and I love it and how can I help? And when's your next retreat? And so it is for...

It does seem to be kind of the next stage of development for not only people who are really suffering from stress, but also people who are kind of, you know, many of them say, well, you know, I've kind of done everything else. I'm successful, but I'm miserable, you know, and what else is there? And this is what there is, is this is the flow that opens you to compassion and connection. And.

Loch Kelly

creativity.

Srini Rao

Wow. Well, this has been really, really cool. And, you know, I think this may be the most one of the most interesting approaches I've seen to this whole conversation about mindfulness. So I want to finish with my final question, which I know you've heard me ask before. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Loch Kelly

Yeah.

Loch Kelly

Okay.

Loch Kelly

Yeah, so it's a direct perception. It's not a mental confirmation. So what makes it unmistakable is almost something that can't be defined, but it's unmistakable. So there's a saying that in this direct path of Tibetan Buddhism is, it...

You don't recognize this awake consciousness because it's so close you can't see it. But when you realize it, it's like a it's just like you know it by being it and there's just this whole sense of like is this, can you mentally say this is true or not true or real or not real? It's like no, if I went to my mind I wouldn't.

but it's unmistakably, unconditionally.

real.

And there's a real, there's a sense of wellbeing and connection that's unmistakable.

Srini Rao

Amazing. Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your wisdom and your story and your insights. Well, as soon as working people find out more about you, your work and everything that you're up to.

Loch Kelly

Sure. So I have a website which is lockkelly.org, L-O-C-H-K-E-L-L-Y.org, and then you'll see right away through the website you can connect to this mobile meditation platform, which is really the best way to experience these short glimpses. There's daily glimpses and ongoing in-depth courses, and there's actually community groups that are formed, peer groups.

of like four to six people that once they, if they like doing this, they kind of meet from around the world and every other week for an hour and kind of practice together. So it's a good, if, if it's worth a try to see if this is a match for you, you know, people have different styles of meditation and psychology, but if this is a good match, then give it a try and see if it's for you.

Srini Rao

Amazing. And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.