Luvvie Ajayi Jones | How Being a Professional Troublemaker Helps You Get What You Want

Srini: .

Luvvie you welcome to the unmistakable. Creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us. Thank

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: you so much for having me.

Srini: It is my pleasure to have you here. So I actually found out about your book by way of your publisher and anybody who has a book with a titled professional troublemaker. I thought, yeah, this is somebody I definitely want to have a conversation with, because this sounds like somebody who I would get along with very well.

But before we get into the content of the book, I wanna ask you what I think is a very relevant question, given what I know about your story, and that is where in the world did you grow up and how did that end up impacting the choices that you've made with your life and your career?

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yes. I grew up in Nigeria, I think that is everything about how I, how my career unfolded and how, who I am today, because everything we do is cultural being born and raised in Nigeria.

There's a different type of bravado that we have as a people because we have to soar in a country full of It's full of people who have this audacity in spite of their circumstances. So by the time I came to the United States, I'd basically been who I was gonna be for nine years.

And language humor. Oftentimes our perspective is cultural and the way I write is very much. Reminiscent of the fact that I am Nigerian born and raised there are certain times when I'm thinking I'm bilingual, for example, I'm I can speak YBA so certain ways that YBA unfolds can show up in my writing because it's very metaphorical language.

So I am very descriptive so I think that has really been a big part of my career because people say I have a singular voice. Yeah. And it's because of my culture.

Srini: You mentioned audacity in spite of circumstances. Expand on that for me. What are the circumstances? Cause I think that for most of us, when we see African countries, we only see what we see through the lens of media, which I think portrays most of these countries inaccurately, like for example, I that numerous E Ethiopian cab drivers who have du me that like what on TV is not an accurate representation.

It's a beautiful country. You don't actually see that side of it because of the way the American media portray.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: absolutely. It's a problem with any, anywhere in anywhere on the continent is that Africas portrayed as this downt tried in place. But I think it's really important to also go beyond that description.

Nigeria is a country full of beautiful people who are resilient, who are very collective. We care about each other. And the other dichotomy is, yeah, Nigeria has a big population that's struggling that is living in abject poverty. So all of those things is a full picture.

It's just like how every other country has the same sort of story, the soaring and the struggles. Yeah.

Srini: So growing up for you what was the cultural narrative about making your way in the world? Because just based on what I read about your story, about lying to your mother about pre-med I was like, huh?

Like you must have a lot in common with Indians.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Oh, absolutely. Nigerians have a lot in common with Indians. I often say that Nigerians are the Indians of Africa and Indians are the Nigerians of Asia. yeah. We have a lot in common in how. Operate in this insistence of winning in spite of where we came from.

We are often given the expectation of being doctors, lawyers by our parents, it's absolutely parallel for both places. I have a, one of my best friends is Indian and a and laugh. And I'm like, we're basically cousins. I'm like four cousins yeah. Either growing up, I was expected to be a doctor cuz I was smart.

I've been bookish since I was little. So I always heard that you're gonna be a doctor or you're gonna be a professor language sent to me. And that's why I became my dream and also because I've always wanted to help people I was like, I wanna help people when I grow up. So doctor's an easy way to do it.

also like growing up unlike gen Z. The things that were considered our possibilities were more narrow where now gen Z has all sorts of options of what it looks like to help the world. We had these boxes because yeah, back then the internet was not real so I think all of that.

Adds to the fact that yeah, all of us there, there's so many failed doctors out here. I'll say that

Srini: yeah. I'm one of, we always jokingly say one of my friends in high school told me that his mom said to him, yeah, if you want me to go to my graven piece, you'll become a doctor. And he didn't.

And fortunately my sister met our family quota. My mom is very happy about that. Cuz apparently that was not gonna happen with.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: oh my gosh. But you know what? I think we have one doctor in our family by the way. So I was like you can handle that. Thank you. . Yeah. And I just think it's a gift for this new generation, especially to not have necessarily those sorts of expectations on them.

In that they can truly figure out what they wanna do outside of those three things. Doctor, lawyer, engineer.

Srini: Yeah. So one of the things you write about earlier in the book is your grandmother. And you say that my grandmother was the chair lady of the board of directors of team, no chill enterprises.

As an elder Nigerian states woman, she was the epitome of the giver of no dams. She was too old to be checked. She knew how to take up space. She was given. And in the time she wasn't given space, she took it. She did all of this with a smile and charm that made her magnetic. She wasn't rude, but she was direct.

And I guess that, that stood out to me because I wondered What influence she had on you? Cause it, it sounded like clearly based on that sentence, she had a huge impact on your thinking.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yeah. My grandmother was who I really was watching, I didn't realize how much I was picking up or she was dropping how much I was picking up how she was moving through the world.

She was just delightful about life. Did not shrink even in rooms where you might expect her to my grandmother embodied the idea of deep confidence, unmoved by whatever room she was in. She would be that person no matter what, and people loved her for it. And she actually showed me really what a sh what it meant to be authentic to you while also honoring your community people you love.

And not bending yourself until you break. I think a lot of times women are told whether implicitly or explicitly that we have to sacrifice ourselves for everybody else's needs everybody else's happiness. And she showed me in her life showed me that's not true, that we can still be loved deeply while still honoring ourselves.

Srini: Yeah. Wow. So you were nine years old when you were the United States. If I remember correctly and that's of enough of a formative age where your culture from Nigeria is pretty embedded, cuz for somebody like me, I was born in India, but I've never lived in India. I mean I've lived outside of India, my entire life and yes, I've transitioned from one country to another, but they were all westernized countries.

It was like Canada to Texas, which is like another country to California. . And so I wonder when you first came here what were the things that shocked you? What was the culture shock that you experienced? What did you find odd? What did you find surprising? And how does that contrast to what you experienced in Nigeria growing up?

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yeah. Major culture shock coming from Nigeria and to, to Chicago where it's cold. Where everybody doesn't look like me, where I have to learn a brand new way of how people move around and being a kid who had an accent it instantly othered me. For the first time in my life, I felt different.

People couldn't pronounce my name. My accent stood out. My food was strange and. The gift of it all is that kids adapt relatively quickly. So I listened to my classmates and I was like, I can sound like that. cause at nine you don't wanna be different at nine. You don't wanna stand out.

You wanna fit in and be like the other kids. So I basically learned very quickly okay, in order to do that, I'm gonna have to not sound so different. I'm gonna have to Use a name that they can pronounce easier than my regular name. I'm gonna have to possibly bring different food, but what's interesting about my food is I was so insistent on my food that even though the kids were like, what's that J off what's that thing you're eating.

I was like J off rice. And they were like, that's weird. I remember bringing like a sandwich to school and halfway through. Class like probably around two, maybe around one. I was like, I'm hungry again. so I started bringing back my food. So the culture shock, I still maintained a deep sense of self. I still went home and ate what I ate.

I still went home and was called the same thing. So yeah, the culture shock was real, but I was still me. Yeah. Later on in the book and the reason I'm going in this order is because it makes more sense in the context of our conversation. You mentioned that you were raised by a single mother and say that she's always been one of your prime motivations to soar in this world.

Srini: What is the impact of not having your father in the, your life been in terms of both your relationship with your mother and also just how you've gone about your life. because for some people I feel like that empowers them. And for others, it becomes this incredibly traumatizing limitation.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: I think for me, it's empowered me cuz I've watched my mom build this life for us out of oftentimes nothing. And it's inspired me because I'm endlessly impressed by how women make. Gold out of ashes and it's, I think it's pushed me to also be successful because I've wanted to make sure that I was able to pay her back in a way just by making sure that her sacrifices were not in vain.

So that's been amazing in terms of pushing me for better. Let's get into sort of the core concepts of the book. One of the things that you open by saying is that we're afraid of who we are in all our glory and grit. We're constantly searching for that person or forgetting that person or repressing that person instead of stranding strong in who that person is.

Srini: And then you go on to talk about this concept called Ori. Can you explain what Ori is and how it relates to that idea of becoming who we are fully and one why we even do that in the first

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: place? Yeah. In Yorba tradition, the Ori is something that's really important in that. Or re is head in your by, and then key is to greet.

So it's ultimately greeting your head, greeting your fake greeting, your destiny, greeting your personhood. It's an affirmation to your spirit. It's a hype mantra. And oftentimes you get one when you're born. And it is said and saying at moments where you need to be reminded of your greatness and special ceremony, so birthdays, weddings, and oftentimes funerals.

and I think about the, just the representation of this thing that exists purely to make you feel good about who and whose you are. And I think the black diaspora has it in all these different forms in hip hop when Jay-Z's calling himself Hove, that's him guessing himself up in Christianity when we.

Talk about king of king, Lords of Lords alpha and omega. That's a form of Norrey. So I wanted to talk about it in this book because to really present us with something that will gas us up in a world, that's often trying to tear us down. It's almost like a blanket. Yeah.

Srini: So you I've had a lot of African American guests here, but you are a blend of both African and African American because you actually grew up in Africa for a part of your life.

And then here I wonder, what did your mother teach you about what it means to be black in America?

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: My mom didn't teach me anything about what it means to be black in America, because by the time we came to the us, even she didn't necessarily know In growing up in Nigeria for us being black is the default.

So we didn't have to define that version of ourselves till we got here. I don't think my mom taught me much about being black in America. What I learned from experience I learned in school. Yeah. Is she was also trying to figure it out herself.

Srini: What did you learn growing up? Because I think it's one thing for us to listen to people, talk about it, to read books about it.

Cause I still remember my roommate reading the Robby DeAngelo book and he's a white guy and he was like, Wow. I was like, yeah, dude, of course you're not aware of your race cuz you're white. It's like water to a fish. I being Indian it's something I'm much more probably aware of than he was.

So I wonder what did what did you learn and what do you want people to know? I guess is really what I'm trying to get at

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: We learn pretty quickly being black in America shows up in different ways in how people. Deal with you again, like it was completely different for me in that I grew up in a place where everybody looked like me. So yeah, I learned pretty quickly. And I think black Americans are some of the most resilient people in the world.

The fight against white supremacy, the constant winning in spite of the fact that there's a whole system that's built to. Ensure that you don't succeed. I am endlessly inspired by it. And I think when I was in college, I took a lot of African American studies courses to also learn the history of black people in America, the struggles, the triumphs, the.

Nuances. I took a lot of courses to also really educate myself in the fact that again, like a lot of times, two year olds here already know that they're black specifically and they can call that out. And they know about the history of the middle passage. I wasn't taught that in Nigeria because we would be learning about the Baffin war.

I. One of the ways I identify myself first and foremost, even beyond Nigerian is just black, because it's a label that I'm proud to carry. Our history comes with so much triumph over tribulations, that there is no reason to not be so proud. So yeah. Wow.

Srini: Let's get into this whole idea of a professional troublemaker, because you say a professional trouble.

Troublemaker is someone who critiques the world, the S shotty systems and the people who refuse to do better while a professional troublemaker. Isn't someone who manufactures chaos or crisis. They do understand that chaos can come from being honest and authentic and going against the tide because in a world that insists on our cooperation, even the face of perpetual turmoil, not standing for it makes you a rebel.

Professional troublemakers deal with it because they have a cause. And that resonated with me so much cuz I'm like, yeah, that would be me. Especially my parents would

,

be like, you are more than a professional troublemaker. You're a personal troublemaker. But where did that entire idea come from?

Like what was the foundation of phrasing it this way?

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: I'm not sure, but I just know it. I can't remember when I started using it, but I know my Ted talk. It's actually how I started my Ted talk, which was almost five years ago, I think. Yeah. The idea of making trouble in this world sometimes scares people.

And they think about I don't wanna do that. I don't wanna ruffle feathers, but I'm like for, we live in a deeply unjust world. To be somebody who is justice minded, who is trying to be a part of the larger change it's gonna, it's gonna make trouble. I think about the late great John Lewis who talked about let's always be ready to make necessary, good trouble.

And it is just one of those things that we have to start reclaiming. We have to start being. Straightforward about I don't wanna hide the fact that I'm gonna make trouble in the room. If a, if an idea is presented that I don't think is thoughtful, I'm gonna speak up about it and it might make the room uncomfortable for a little bit, but it is absolutely worthwhile because I wanna always be able to justify my role in any room that I'm in.

So I think it's one of those things where we just have to start accepting it now.

Srini: Yeah. Why is it that there are so many people who don't speak up and just keep quiet and how do they overcome that? I

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: think because, yeah, I think it's because we've been told that harmony is more important than justice.

That discomfort is painful. So we will do our best to not rock the boat in the room. Instead we're sitting there accepting. Shotty behaviors shotty ideas, and we're letting people off the hook because we're thinking, you know what, it's not my, it's not my job to do, or somebody else will handle it, or I just don't wanna get in the weeds of it all.

But I think when we are at the table, the literal table, the things that happen there are our responsibility. So when we are afraid of whether it's afraid of rejection, whether it's afraid of, who's gonna say what to us, who we're gonna offend, what we're doing is shirking our responsibility. We're saying I am giving up what is my job in this space?

So I'm always wondering like when we are there and we're afraid of all these movements, we should probably ask ourselves if our silence will convict us. Yeah, I think when we're so afraid of speaking up in that room and we don't do it, we should consider thinking about, okay, if I walk out this room and somebody asks, oh, you were there, did you say anything?

And you say, no, will you be proud of that answer? Yeah. Will you be proud of your inaction? Yeah. There's one thing that I grabbed from your book that really stood out to me as well. You say, by being here on this earth, you've done enough. And the reason I think that stood out to me is. Because people who listen to this podcast are probably thinking, yeah, she's a Ted speaker.

Srini: She's a New York times wrestling author. And know this because I had a listener who emailed me once and said, I have to stop listening to the show because your guests are making me feel worse about my life. I said I can relate. Imagine what my reality is on a daily basis. Like I have the most ridiculous role models for my basis for what success looks like.

And I had a mentor told me, and he's you gotta realize the people you talk to are outliers. And it took me a long time and it's still, I think, a struggle for me to basically say, okay I'm enough. There are times when I'm like, yeah, I'm definitely not on the level that my guests are.

And I forget. I'm like, yeah, but they can't do what I do. .

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: I'm fascinated by the person who says I have to start. I have to start. I have to stop listening to you because your guests are making me feel bad. What's interesting is cuz I have a podcast too, and I have the type of guest you have and typically when people listen, people are often like, oh my goodness, this really helped.

What I always tell people about folks like us who get any sort of prominence or are put on some type of pedestal. Yeah. Is that ultimately most of us, especially those of us who are not straight white men, we are ordinary people who at the beginning of our lives were not in extraordinary circumstances.

We were not the ones who had the trust funds. We were not the ones who had the dad who owned a big old company and just gave us a job. A lot of us are people who are perfectly ordinary, who have committed to doing the same thing over and over again, and have found ourselves successful because of it.

So I'm actually inspired by the people who, when I hear their story, I, cuz I always ask the question of. What did you wanna be when you grow up? Because I wanna compare it to who they are now. Like I used to, I was supposed to be a doctor. Yeah. But then I'm now this person who does have a Ted talk, who does have best selling books, but I always wanna let people know, like I had to build this life.

Like this wasn't from, and it's not to have somebody else feeling bad. What I hope people take from my story is that I'm a possibility model. So if I can actually accomplish some of my wildest dreams or some of the things that I didn't even have as dreams, because they just felt too big to even dream about.

And I came from a background where I had to work. I haven't ever been somebody who just had a forgotten conclusion that like my life was gonna be successful. Like my goal, my hope is that somebody hears this and says, okay, it's possible for me in some form. Yeah,

Srini: no, absolutely. I think that, that is the thing that I aim for with every person I interview is to showcase realistic models of possibility that people can see themselves in the stories.

And I, I know exactly what you mean. My old mentor used to say something to me that just came to mind when you were telling that story. And he would say your temporary circumstances are not your permanent. and to the point where I was like, I need to get that tattooed on my arm. Yeah, because it was such an important remainder of exactly what you're talking about.

So something that you say as you segue into another that I wanna really talk about is you say, when you're tempted to believe someone's tainted version of you or believe their projection of who they think you are reread your mission statement, remind yourself of who the hell you are before trying to remind anyone else.

It's funnier because I think everybody has we were talking about being put on pedestals, right? People have a projection of probably who you are based on what they see. Online, senior Ted talks seeing the internet and then they have a projection of who you are based on reading your books.

And I know it's the same thing with me. And I always have to tell people's by the way, I was like, you're seeing me in my limelight. Me normal day to day is a PR crisis in the making. Yeah, so trust me, I'm not exactly what you think. I am like I like when people read my books, they expect Tony Robbins.

I was like, no, you're gonna get me swearing, unfiltered pissed. And I will say things that are incredibly offensive and politically incorrect. And so if you have this perception of who I am based on the few moments in the spotlight, they're wildly inaccurate.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Absolutely again, like we are regular people who just happen to get some sort of visibility.

I always tell people, listen, do not put me on any pedestals, cuz I don't belong there. I will disappoint you over and over again and that is not like I will do it. Just give. And the reason why pedestals are a trap is cuz pedestals remove your humanity. Pedestals make it seem as if you have it all together.

I do not. I am the first to let people know I ain't got it all together. I do not have it together at all. And the thought of that pressure is it's terrible. It's so big because you then have to live up to this expectation. Human beings don't belong in pedestals. Those are for statues

So don't have me on there at all.

Srini: Yeah let's get into this idea of too much. You say to be too something is to do or be something to a level that folks find to be unco it's to be different. And this just reminds me of conversations I've had with my mom when she's you're a too unfiltered.

She's don't you think you should develop someone? I'm like, I'm your son. And I'm 40 something years old. If it hasn't happened by now, maybe you should give up on that.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Facts only. That's a wrap. Yeah. I like, where do you think this comes from? So the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree and I just it's funny because I think that.

Srini: That is something that really, when people are told they're too much of something one example, despite the fact that I literally make a living, listening to people and I'm aware of this, people are like, you talk too much. And I'm like, yeah, that's cuz I spend my entire day listening to people.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: But here's the thing though. The thing that you are too much of is now the thing that's allowing you to serve the world in such a specific. The idea of too much, like you are too, something has been used to weaponize this for a long time. And a lot of us who were called too mouthy, or we talked too much when we were little we're able to now serve the world with our words and impact people in a real, tangible way.

I think oftentimes when we're called too much or too something. And we hide it. What we're doing is we're hiding our superpower for somebody else's whims, whatever fickle thing they wanna say to us that day And that superpower can be used in the service of you and others, as opposed to dug deep and buried.

There's so many people who have been told that they're too much, who now are too little and can't get back to who they used to be. And I think that. is unfortunate. We spent so much time telling little kids that they're to something, but how about if you actually harness whatever that thing is and help them channel it to something productive.

Srini: Yeah. This is another thing that stood out to me. We were talking about this idea of too much. You say, do not let people make you feel bad for being successful and for being you and being amazing. And for being accomplished, if people get upset at you for announcing something, you did, those are not your people.

And I think that the reason this really stood out to me is as unmistakable creative grew, and as I accomplished certain things, I lost friends in the process. I don't know if that's happened to you. It, where

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: has definitely.

Srini: And I realized I was like, okay the reality is in some ways I've outgrown these people and for my own personal growth they, whether they wanted to come along for it or not was their choice.

And when they basically decided that they didn't wanna be part of it I outgrew them and it took me a long time to realize that. And it's still thing that I struggle with to know that I burn bridges with people that I'm never gonna be able to.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yeah, I think it's a Rite of passage at this point.

It's a Rite of passage to lose people along the way, because here's one of the things that will happen is that oftentimes people will see your success and project their own failures on it. They'll see it as a mirror of their failures. And oftentimes there's nothing you can do about it. Because it's not actually about you, it's about what you represent.

It's about their unrealized dreams, their unfulfilled potential, and then they see you soaring and they take offense to it. I've absolutely experienced it. And my only way of dealing with it is just keep doing what I was doing and understanding that people just gonna have to stay mad. Cause I'm gonna keep soaring.

I'm gonna keep living in my purpose. I'm gonna keep Creating the life that I wanna live, I'm gonna keep having opportunities that will blow their minds. My job is not to shrink because somebody is offended by my wins. My job is to continue to soar and continue to like embody who I say I am. And the purpose that I have.

Yeah.

Srini: Let's talk a bit about imposter syndrome. It's funny that this is one of those things that I feel like traps so many people. And I think they have in my mind, this mistaken belief that people who accomplish big things, don't at all feel like imposters. And I'm like, go read one of Seth Gordon's books.

He literally says in a sentence, I feel like an imposter every day. And I don't know if you've ever felt that, but like I remember I got a book deal with penguin portfolio and my book wasn't as successful and I'm like The rest of the authors, the imprint are like Ryan holiday, Seth good.

And Simon Sinek. And I honestly, at moments, I'm like, what the hell am I doing here? This had to have been a mistake. And I it'd always joked that I'm the redheaded stepchild of penguin, but I wonder, have you felt that in any way at all in, in your own career New York times, best seller Ted talk and you've been on Oprah do you ever feel that what the hell am I doing here?

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Absolutely. I think imposter syndrome stays with us, especially those of us who are. On being actually good at what we do. We're constantly wondering, am I actually good at this? Am I doing the thing that I said I was gonna do? Am I offering the value that I said I was gonna offer? And I think for me, I've used it as a driving force I've used it to push me forward to make sure that I.

And I don't think, you know what I've learned, everything I need to learn, or I have nothing new to, to be better at it constantly sharpens me that imposter syndrome for me, I think is actually why I why I wrote professional troublemaker in the way I wrote it. It was, I put my vulnerable moments of like actually failing in there.

I put my, I talked about losing friends in there because I think it's important to also humanize ourselves as we are the people who are considered some of the. Letting people know that we don't have it all together, that we do have imposter syndrome. That feeling like you're wearing a title that you have not earned is actually normal.

I think it will help everybody out to know that we're all feeling this it's not just, you.

Srini: Hence the reason I usually when I teach something, I'm like, let me premise this by saying that you should consider the possibility that everything I'm telling you is bullshit because it might be for you.

And literally the book I'm working on at

,

the moment, which I'm gonna self-publish is titled everybody is full of shit, including me. Nice. Yeah. Let's talk about this idea of boundaries and asking, because I think that this stood out to me as well as somebody who literally I had a client who was one of my students, tell me the other day who took my course on note taking you're a you basically use the phrase that I won't use when it comes to charging.

And he was somebody who had paid me for my work. And then he was like, and this we were doing a customer research interview. He's I'm gonna send you a hundred bucks just for this. and it got me thinking that he was so right. And I I'd always been aware of that.

And you say our inability to ask for things comes from a lifetime of learning. That to ask is often to be disappointed. It's a well earned fear. And then you go on to talk about charging. So let's start with asking and then we'll get into this idea of charging what you're worth.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yeah. We gotta get asking.

Is everybody a lot of people's wounds? Like people have a. A really hard time asking for help. And I think it's because maybe in the past people have let them down or people have punished them for asking something. And I just think we all need to push past it. Anyway, in spite of the wounds around asking, we have to do it for our own greater good, because we're often just waiting for people life to give us what we want.

But if we're not asking, how do people know what we actually. So they can give it to us. Yeah. Let's talk about this idea of charging. What you're really worth, cuz you say we're so afraid of charging what we're really worth because we fear that people will walk away. I say good RINs to bad rubbish.

Srini: People will want to pay as pickle juice for champagne work have to get used to hearing. No, and it reminds me of a story. I heard Dan Kennedy tell in one of his seminars, he said routinely, one of the things he does is when he takes on a client, he makes a deal he's. I'm going to Institute a 2200% across the board price increase and being Dan Kennedy.

He's also baked in that as a percentage of his commission because he's smart and people are stunned. When they actually start selling at a 200% higher price increase. So you like even in me a 200% increase, just that's. So out of my comfort zone to if I had a course that I sell for $500, I'm like, wait a minute.

That would be like a $10,000 course.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yeah. 200% increase. I don't think it's one of those things that should go across the board and I know we talk about charging what you're worth out. A lot of this is. Arbitrary numbers either knowing what other people are making and then knowing what the industry standard is.

I think the important part is that a lot of people on the margins are often underpaid in ways that have us behind the ball. I don't wanna be the person who is the least paid in the room because I just happen to be a black. If my worth is valuable, which it is, if I am, I have the same credentials, same experience, I should be getting the same payment or sometimes more.

So we just have to start getting used to asking for the number that is fair for us. Yeah.

Srini: Let's talk about boundaries because I think you and I, it sounds like both come from cultures where boundaries are loose and it basically, it I can tell you this is one thing that I realized growing up was that I had no boundaries and I got punished for having them.

Pretty consistently, particularly when it came to my mother and I saw how that played out in my relationships later on in life. And you spend six months in therapy, you figure out which parents screwed you up and you don't blame them, but then you realize, okay, I'm repeating a lot of these patterns in my relationships you say many of us were not allowed to draw boundaries growing up, especially with family.

That's me in a nutshell. Now maybe it's a cultural thing, but I can tell you the concept of boundaries was non-existent.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yeah, I think boundaries are one of those things. That's really hard for people because we've been told that boundaries make us selfish. Or like we are somehow not doing our part as a member of whatever community we are in by not flailing ourselves with somebody else. And for me, it's been important to be somebody who's strongly.

Because I get annoyed easily. I'm like, why do I have to do the thing you want me to do when it does not feel good, or it actually is to my detriment. And I think it's important to start doing the boundaries thing, because the longer we wait to tell people what we want, the more we're doing them and us a disservice.

Whether it's family, whether it's friends, I am somebody who always wants to have people know what I want in terms of treatment. And I think about boundaries as I think about boundaries as a gift. Yeah. Because it means the people who know me who love me have a strong idea. Of the things that I love, the things that I don't love and they can trust me to be honest with them when I don't love what they've done.

And that honesty is a gift. Yeah.

Srini: I think the thing that trips people up about boundaries, I remember having a conversation with a friend when I was in India shopping for my sister's wedding. A and we were talking about this and the first time that you communicate your boundaries and it doesn't go well, you're like, shit, you realize that you may have like lost somebody who was gonna date you and changed their mind because that BA but and then I realized, I was like, yeah, but why would you want to date that person anyways?

But I think it's so uncomfortable the first time that happens.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Absolutely. And I think it's because a lot of people are not used to boundaries. Sometimes Bo people will take you exerting your boundaries as a personal affront to them. And that's because we are a society of people who have not used boundaries in the way we should.

So people aren't used to it. Yeah. I think the way you summed this up, this is probably my, one of my favorite sentences in the book is remember, your life is not a carnival and not everyone should get a ticket to it. I just, yes, indeed. I, that resonated with me so much. Absolutely. So you go on now.

Srini: I think the what I like is that the way you framed this is we started with mindset. I feel like a lot of people get stuck in the sort of vicious cycle of self improvement. It's Hey, I'm improving myself. I'm reading all these books, I'm going to all these seminars.

And I was like, yeah, but what have you done with any of what you've learned anything? And they get stuck there and you actually say permission is one thing. Execution is another. Once you gotta get doper and better now comes the part where the ground you stand on will be shaken up. So talk to me about this.

Like, why do people stop, like somebody, for example, could listen to your conversation with me, go out and buy your book, and then it's back to business as usual.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: The whole is that people actually do something with it. Yeah. That's the hope for all of us who, who do this work.

Srini: I'm.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Like, I think it's so important for people to take action in what they actually want to accomplish. I write my books in hopes that people will close the pages and they instantly go do something new. Yeah.

Srini: So why is it then that you have these people who just go from seminar to seminar book to book, and yet they never do anything with that information.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: No one book. No one class can change your life unless you're actually ready to take action. I can read a million things, but if I don't actually put the recommendations into work, no matter how many things I read, nothing's gonna change. So I think a lot of people just read and take the classes, but then they haven't figured out the next step in terms of actually doing the thing.

And that's the problem. And that's the reason why some people. In spite of all they know still don't get the results they get. They have not put the action to it.

Srini: Wow. So let's finish by talking about this idea of firing yourself, because I think that this is yet another one of those things where, you know, letting go of things that you are in control of.

Is incredibly difficult to do, especially when you are the person who has been at the top of something and in charge of something for so long to put it in the hands of somebody else. The first few times, I know it's terrifying. Like I slowly, one of the things that for me was editing, I edited the first 400 episodes of this show, myself to which to this day was a godsend because.

I knew that it, the things that it did for me were it basically forced me to go back and listen to everything, which I found valuable. And I still do that. But there were little things I realized it was like I can't have somebody else choose the teaser. I need to choose that. Cuz they're not gonna hear what I hear.

And bit by bit. I started to let that go. And fortunately I have the greatest audio engineer in the world now, and he's amazing. And if I forget something, he'll be like, all right, go with this. He'll know exactly what to pick and he's never. Let me down, it's mind blowing, but that took a long time to get to that point where I'm like, okay, I trust you to basically run with this and do your thing.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yeah. I think trusting other people to not drop the balls that are important to you is in itself a master exercise. But I think we need to let go of that control a little bit more so that we can create We can really live in our genius. For me also like building a team, that's been the toughest part is letting go of stuff and delegating and thinking.

I'm the only one that can do this one thing. Meanwhile, we all actually operate in templates. We might not understand it, but like our life has patterns, how we operate, how we tackle our day has a pattern, how we approach work has a pattern. So when you can figure out what that is, you can actually replicate more of your.

And I think that's the best thing telling people how you think about something. So they can also think about it in the same way is helpful as a leader.

Srini: I wanna finish with an unrelated area you got married recently, right?

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yes. Three years ago.

Srini: Okay. Yeah, because, and I thought I was hilarious.

You said I've found that weddings are the event of the world where people will most test your boundaries. If you're not used to drawing lines, you might be not be ready to have a wedding. And I'm thinking, yeah, that sounds about right. Based on what I saw with my sister's wedding. Is your husband also Nigerian?

No. Okay. That's why I wanted to ask this question. So this is something I'm always curious about when you have people from two different cultures coming together, and that is when you think about even having children or retaining culture, When you mix two different cultures together because my sister is married to a Bengali guy and we're south Indian.

And I always wondered, I was like, okay, is this kid of there is gonna speak both our languages and what's gonna be the first thing to go. And I'm convinced probably if I don't marry an Indian girl, the very first thing to go will be language. And so I wonder how you think about preserving and retaining culture when you marry somebody.

Who's not of the same culture.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: I think culture. Much harder to lose than we think there can be one parent that speaks the language that is important to them, to that child. A lot of people who I know grew up bilingual because one parent was one culture and another was another.

So I think it's culture is actually not that easy to lose. We actually have to be completely inactive about it to lose it. So yeah, I think. I'm actually not worried about that as a P as a point of tension, because one person can literally speak language to this person. I know a friend who she's she's black American actually, no she's Jamaican and her husband's German, their daughter's bilingual cuz her husband only speaks German to.

To the baby and yeah, it's not a problem. And I think kids are way more resilient than we give them credit for so they can pick up things faster. So yeah, culture doesn't have to be lost when two people are from different places. Yeah

Srini: So yeah, you've accomplished things that anybody listening to this probably would be almost envious of Ted talk, New York times bestselling books.

And I always wonder with people who've accomplished all these things that were on their list of dreams. Has your definition of success evolved over time? And is it different from when you started?

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: I'm not sure what my definition of success was when I started. But I know for me, definition of success now is that I can choose to live life on my own terms.

I can wake up every day and do something that I wanna do. I can ignore the things that I don't wanna do. I think that for me, is success being able to live life on my own terms.

Srini: Yeah. . Wow. Wow. This has been really amazing and eye opening and thought provoking as I expected it would be.

So I have one final question for you, which is how we finish all of our interviews at the unmistakable creative. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable that makes something

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: unmistakable

Srini: makes somebody or something? The repeatable. Yeah. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: What makes somebody unmistakable is that they are truly themselves in all ways, in whatever room that they're in. I think being able to maintain your authenticity, your true self, even in rooms where you might not know anybody and maybe in some where, you know, everybody or in a room where you're not sure or imposter syndromes, getting you, whether it's professional, whether it's person.

that who you are remains consistent no matter who is around you. I think that makes you unmistakable.

Srini: Amazing. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story, your wisdom, and your insights with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you, your work, the book, and everything else that you're up to?

Yes,

Luvvie Ajayi Jones: I am easy to find I'm all of the internet as lovey L U V I E is my username on all platforms. And I have my own podcast called professional troublemaker and lovey.org is my website. I'm super easy to find I'm everywhere and I'm excited to connect with more and more people. And my promise to the worlds I'm gonna keep making good trouble.

Srini: Amazing. And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.