Marc Brackett | The Power of Expressing and Understanding Our Emotions

Marc, Welcome to the unmistakable creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Marc Brackett

It's my pleasure to be here. Excited.

Srini Rao

It is my pleasure to have you here. So you have a new book out called permission to feel, which I read in detail. And as I was just joking, drew the conclusion that I am emotionally illiterate after reading the book. But you know, you say the majority of us are, so not to be tongue in cheek, but how are you feeling?

Marc Brackett

To be honest with you, I am not home this week. I'm actually on a mini vacation that came unexpected. It is an unbelievably gorgeous place and I'm probably one of the best places I've been in like two years.

Srini Rao

Well, I normally wouldn't start with that question, but given the nature of your background, I wanted to start with a question that I always like to ask people who I consider social scientists, and that is what social group were you a part of in high school, and what impact did that end up having on the choices that you've made throughout your life and your career?

Marc Brackett

Yeah.

Marc Brackett

You're going to make me go back there? Yeah, I forgot about it already. So when you say what, you know, I was, I don't know, I don't think I was part of any group. Honestly, I was trying to be an athlete but wasn't, although I was in the martial arts, which is kind of a sport. I was, you know, I was beginning to be academically oriented, but not really.

Srini Rao

You wrote about it in the book, so there's no way I wasn't gonna ask about it.

Marc Brackett

I wanted to be cool, but I don't think I was. So I think I'm a misfit, honestly.

Srini Rao

Well, I can relate. I mean, so it seems like that had a profound influence on where you've ended up and what you're doing just based on having read the book. You know, you mentioned that you were bullied quite a bit. You alluded to the fact that you were trying to be cool, but never were. And then I very distinctly remember the part about your grades. And I'm thinking to myself, wait a minute, now you're at one of the most elite educational institutions in the world. So what in the world happened between this?

Marc Brackett

Yeah.

Marc Brackett

Uh huh.

Srini Rao

childhood that seems pretty rough to where you're at now.

Marc Brackett

So it's an interesting thing that you asked, because so many people come up to me and they hear about my childhood experiences of abuse and trauma, and then they see me as a professor at Yale, and they say, but you made it. And I say, firstly, what does that even mean, you made it? But I think on top of that, you don't know all the different pieces that came together for me. And so I think for me, I see...

myself as being extraordinarily fortunate to have a parents who weren't emotionally intelligent but knew to get me like psychological help as a kid. Big deal. Two, as I write about in my book and I dedicate my career to my Uncle Marvin who was a hero in my life. Third is I got involved in the martial arts and became a black belt.

Fourth is I got to go to psychology training. And fifth, I spent 25 years running around the world trying to get people to talk about their feelings. So.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, so I love that you brought up that you had parents who, you know, were at least aware enough that you needed, you know, to get psychological help. And, you know, I want to come back to the idea of culture a bit later, because I know you alluded to it in the book, but I grew up in an Indian family, you know, psychological help is not something that we ever talked about. It was pretty much, you know, very stigmatized. I mean, my parents would have never said, go to a therapist until, you know, I was 36 and living at home and, you know, I'd had a bad breakup and

Marc Brackett

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I finally started seeing a therapist. And I think that they, the stigma is starting to be less and less with each generation, but particularly my parents' generation, we definitely didn't talk about these kinds of things. Why do you think it is that your parents were at least aware enough that something was wrong that you needed to get psychological help? And why do you think so many parents aren't?

Marc Brackett

Well, I mean, my experience, as you know from reading my book, is I had sexual abuse. And so it was traumatic. And when I disclosed it at 11 years old, it became a public thing because the person got arrested. It impacted how we were living on our block in the neighborhood I grew up in, New Jersey. And so there was a lot of stuff to deal with. And I think my parents honestly just didn't know.

They knew what they didn't know, and it was pretty clear that we needed professional help. And then my uncle, who came into my life around the same time, was very, very psychologically minded and I think he had a tremendous influence over their decision.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I know that you allude to him throughout the book and you know, you dedicate the book to him Look, you know outside of the fact that he was willing to ask you as a child. How do you feel? Which I realized, you know, I don't think my parents have ever asked me that you know my entire life I don't think I've ever had a conversation my dad and you know Unless he can see that I'm like in really bad shape where he asked me how I feel Tell me about this relationship with your uncle Like what is it beyond him just prompting that question that made it so special like what led to that bond?

Marc Brackett

Mm-hmm.

Marc Brackett

Mm-hmm.

Marc Brackett

Well, a number of things. You know, it was not just that he asked me the question, how are you feeling, but also when I shared what I was feeling, he didn't say, you know, get some grit, kid, or toughen up, or, you know, good luck. He was very clear that we were in this together and that he was gonna be that support system for me. I mean, the other thing that's kind of just fascinating to me, if I really think back about my childhood with him,

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Marc Brackett

is that he was working on this curriculum to teach kids about feelings through social studies or history. And he would use me as the guinea pig. And so we would have conversations around Julius Caesar, you know, and what it felt like, you know, when your best friend betrayed you. We'd have conversations, you know, around all kinds of topics. And then he'd always sneak in the feeling and he'd say things like, so how do you think they felt?

When have you felt that way? And so I just think he was really clever about.

Marc Brackett

getting me to talk about my feelings and build my emotional literacy.

Srini Rao

Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, you know, I know you go into it later in the book and we'll talk about it in a bit more detail. But when I talk to people like you, one thing that I wonder is why this is not prevalent in our education system early on. Even I got through college and I remember thinking of us with free therapy in college. And you know how many times I went to see that therapist once.

Marc Brackett

Mm-hmm.

And so, yeah, you're right. Firstly, I like to use the martial arts as to make the parallel. When I got involved in the martial arts at 13, I wanted to get that yellow belt like no tomorrow, the five punches, the five kicks, the five blocks. But there was a precise technique than blue belt. You gotta do five more punches and five more kicks.

and red belt, and et cetera. And I've always wondered, you know, why don't we have that for emotional intelligence? Like, what is the yellow belt in emotional intelligence? What is the blue belt? What is the red belt? And I just, you know, this is what I'm motivated to do in my career is to ensure that every kid gets the emotion education they deserve, because when you look at the outcomes,

it's very clear that people with these skills are healthier, happier, more effective in life.

Srini Rao

Now, you say that in the book, you open it by saying my message for everyone is the same, that if we can learn to identify, express, and harness our feelings, even the most challenging ones, we can use those emotions to help us create positive, satisfying lives. But then you also say, you know, allude to the fact that yet it is also the thing we steer around most carefully. Our inner lives are uncharted territory, even to us, a risky place to explore. And I remember...

There's probably a book that you've seen I haven't read it But I just couldn't help but think about wanting to pick it up to see what the contrast was There's a book called fuck feelings And I just thought to myself wow yeah like we kind of are in this conundrum where on the one hand You're saying this is healthy for us, and we pretty much do everything we can to suppress whatever we're feeling particularly negative emotions So what how do we get to this place first of all?

Marc Brackett

Mm-hmm.

Marc Brackett

Well, I think A, it's not cool to be vulnerable. B, it's not cool to be vulnerable. C, it's not cool to be vulnerable. And so, you know, for a guy to say, you know, that he's anxious, you know, well, that means he can't put up for his family, right? It means that, you know, there's no strategies to support everyone. It means...

The family's not safe. And so I think, first of all, it's not true. You can be, I've had anxiety my entire life, but I've been totally functional and have been able to build good relationships and have friendships and succeed at work. It's that our mindset around emotions is that those negative ones like anxiety and fear and overwhelm are bad, weak emotions.

And I think we need, that's my kind of job in life is to get people to shift that mindset. Their experiences, everybody has them. Whether you're a self-proclaimed tough guy, you know, or not. And we're all gonna have people who die in our lives, we're all gonna, you know, not get what we want, we're all gonna have frustration, overwhelm, disappointment, anger. And let's learn how to use these emotions wisely so that they don't interfere with our success as opposed to say, F you to them.

Srini Rao

Mm hmm. Yeah, totally. Well, you know, the sort of conclusion in the first chapter, you say perpetual happiness can't be our goal. It's just not how real life works. We need the ability to experience and express all emotions to down or upregulate both pleasant and unpleasant emotions in order to achieve greater well-being, make the most informed decisions, build and maintain meaningful relationships and realize our potential. We all want our lives and the lives of people who love to be free of hardship and troubling events. We can never make that happen.

We all want our lives to be filled with healthy relationships, compassion, and a sense of purpose that we can make happen. It kind of got me thinking about the sort of personal development and human potential movement in general, which is kind of notorious for, you know, sort of delusional optimism and rose-colored glasses where if you actually say something negative, it's almost like you just get frowned upon in these environments. So I wonder, as a psychologist who studies this, what do you make of that? Like, are we...

leading people down misguided paths.

Marc Brackett

Um.

Marc Brackett

We are. I mean, this idea of perpetual happiness is crazy. You know, you can't be happy all the time. And I don't know about you, but when I'm around people that are like, at least acting like they're happy all the time, it drives me crazy. Yeah, I mean, and some of them, you know, there are people who are just like, whatever they got in life, they just experience.

Srini Rao

I think they're full of shit.

Marc Brackett

more pleasant emotions, which by the way has nothing to do with emotional intelligence. You know, what you feel is not, you know, your skill, it's just your feelings. I think that, you know, if you're a one, like it's the same thing if you're around someone who's depressed all the time or who's anxious all the time, you know, you don't want to live in one emotion category your whole life because either it'll make your life very difficult.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Marc Brackett

or it'll make the lives of the people that you work with and live with very difficult. So again, I think life is an emotional roller coaster ride. And our job is to appreciate that and use it wisely. Certain emotions are going to help you make better choices in certain situations.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Marc Brackett

Other emotions are gonna help you inspire your team. Other emotions are gonna help you make informed decisions. Other emotions are gonna help you fight for the injustices that we see in our society.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, I think that the reason, you know, I wanted I like that because I remember when we got an iTunes review that said, you know, the greatest thing about the shows, there's no feel good fluff. And to me, that was the supreme compliment. Because I you know, I talked to people like you, but I don't ever just take anything anybody says at face value, no matter how inspiring it is. I'm like, okay, prove it to me. I want to see the research that backs this up. But

Marc Brackett

Hahaha

Srini Rao

One of the things that struck me that you said was that pessimism can make it easier for us to anticipate things that could go wrong and then take proper actions to prevent them. Guilt acts as a moral compass. Anxiety keeps us trying to improve things that a more generous mood might be willing to accept. Even anger is a great motivator. Unlike resignation, it drives us to act and perhaps fix what made us angry in the first place. If we're furious watching someone being mistreated, we're likely to step up and seek redress. You know, I think the reason that struck me is I have an Ednaud roommate. He just moved out recently.

of my best friends and you know the joke is basically you know we're like the yin and yang balancing each other's optimism and pessimism because I always you know joke with him was like you don't see the downside of anything which is what gets you into trouble on the flip side he gets me to see the upside of everything and you know to me I'm of the belief that if I anticipate what is gonna go wrong I might be able to prevent it I don't think I always can but at least it gives me the thought process and

Marc Brackett

Mm-hmm.

Marc Brackett

Of course.

Srini Rao

I mean, even Richard Branson, you know, who was basically walking around like he's high on ecstasy all the time, talks about this whole idea of protecting your downside, even in business. How do you make a case for the fact that pessimism can be a good thing? Because I think that particularly a lot of people who listen to this podcast don't listen to it because they want to feel pessimistic, but you basically say that this can be very valuable.

Marc Brackett

Yes, well again, what I say is all emotions are valuable, all of them, not just the positive ones. And so the...

You know, it's funny because I was talking with someone just yesterday about, you know, the obsession with being in the present moment. You know, everybody's about, you know, you got to be present. You got to be calm and content and tranquil. That can be boring after a while, right? You know, it's like, you know, I don't know how many high school kids, they're like, just be calm all the time, right? It's like, no, you know, it can be some excitement. I want some inspiration. I want some fun. And, you know.

Srini Rao

Ha ha!

Marc Brackett

If you're doing construction on your house, you might want to be shrewd about, be a little pessimistic and make sure that, are these the right contractors? Is this the right budget? Is this going to be done in the right timeframe? What's the contract look like? And so I just see utility for all emotions based on the goal.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Marc Brackett

And so I think it's all about goal setting.

Srini Rao

Absolutely. Well, so let's talk specifically about decision making and then we'll get into the framework. But this really struck me because you said we believe that our ability to reason and think rationally is our highest mental power above our unruly emotional side. This is but a trick our brains play on us. In fact, our emotions exert a huge though mostly unconscious influence over how our minds function. The fact is especially evident when it comes to the decision making process. And you actually say that almost all of our actions are determined by our emotions, which is.

kind of funny because I think that, you know, as a business owner, one of the things that I keep trying to convince myself is that, okay, how do I maintain objectivity when I see things? But, you know, it's interesting, like, how do you balance the ability to be objective with the fact that everything you do is emotional regardless?

Marc Brackett

So there's nuance in that. And the nuance is that it's not the feeling that is driving the judgment. It's the feeling that is outside of your awareness that can be influencing the judgment. So I think the point is that you can be feeling anything you want when you're doing stuff and still be doing it well. But.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Marc Brackett

you want to be aware of how you're feeling. So give me the best example, you know, is let's say you're at home, you get in a fight with your partner, you know, you're like, irritable, I can't take it anymore. And you're driving to work and then you get to work and you're, you know, someone gives you something to look at and you've got to evaluate it. Um, but you're still kind of subconsciously irritable about what happened at home. That irritability will oftentimes kind of like leak into the judgment and decision making.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Marc Brackett

So that's the unconscious influence of emotions on your judgment. Now, you can still be irritable with your partner, but if you get to work and you check in on a tool like we have called the mood meter, and you say something like, you know what, gosh, I'm really in a funk right now. Why? Oh, I got in a fight with my partner. Oh, because X, Y, Z. Once I attribute my emotion to its actual cause, it will have a less likely influence that future judgment. So I think that's...

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Marc Brackett

That's super cool and interesting from my perspective.

Srini Rao

Mm hmm. It's you know, it reminds me I got an email yesterday from one of our readers who had trouble registering for a webinar. And you know, the first mistake was on me because the link was broken. And so I sent out a corrected link in 20 or 30 people, you know, showed up with no problem. And I got this very angry email from the guy saying, at least like you expect me to buy something for me. He's like, this is a complete disaster. And I'm thinking to myself, you're this pissed off about a free webinar that 20 other people couldn't

Marc Brackett

Ha ha ha!

Srini Rao

And I had to realize like, OK, wait a minute, this probably has nothing to do with me. And I remember there's another time a woman sent me this really lengthy email to our contact form. I was on a reality show of some sort and one of my friends who's a journalist interviewed me for my show. Usually I'm the one doing the interview. And she sent probably an email that probably took her a good hour to write.

And at the end of it, she said, you didn't even listen to your guest. You talked about yourself the whole time. I'm thinking to myself, lady, I was the one being interviewed. And I was like, okay, clearly this, you know, struck a nerve that had nothing to do with the content of that conversation. Or maybe it did, but it had nothing to do with me.

Marc Brackett

Uh-huh.

Marc Brackett

Yeah, I mean people love projecting all their issues on everybody else. So, you know, it's like the story of all of our lives, right? And that's their lack of self-awareness.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

So you've talked about how this impacts our, how negative emotions impact our decisions. One of the things that I'm always very skeptical of is when people make major life decisions after peak positive life experiences, like they come back from doing Iowa Oscar, they come back from a Tony Robbins seminar and self-improvement seminar, and they make these drastic changes, like quitting their job or getting divorced. I've seen this happen at the Landmark Forum. Somebody literally just goes home and is like, hey, I'm divorcing you.

Marc Brackett

Uh huh.

Srini Rao

Personally, I think that is misguided. I'm just curious based on your research, like how that affects people's decisions too.

Marc Brackett

Well, it's the idea of intense emotions are going to drive your thinking a certain way. I think you're right. You know, that most of the time, it's like people who win the lottery end up most of them being poor again. Because they're super happy. They think they got the world in a string, and boom. Now they're broke again. And so the, um.

Yeah, I'm not sure what your specific question is here, but...

Srini Rao

Yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, you mentioned intense emotions, I guess, you know, how do how do people prove this? This is probably the better question is, how do people prevent their judgment from being skewed after a major peak experience that's actually leading to intense positive emotions?

Marc Brackett

The same way you would do with any emotion is you take a nice long inhale and an exhale and you just say, you know something, I know. This is why knowledge is important before judgment, before behavior. If you don't know about how emotions affect your thinking then you're just going to go with the flow. It's why...

Srini Rao

And wait.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Marc Brackett

it's why we make a lot of mistakes in life. And so very simply, just take a deep breath and say, you know something, like, just like yesterday was a rainy day and I felt like crap, today's one of those days where I feel like I got everything going right for me. I don't wanna make a bad decision yesterday because it was a rainy day. I don't wanna make a rash decision today because it's a sunny day.

Srini Rao

Yeah. I mean, it just reminds me, I, we had a conference once and at the very end of it, I asked everybody that I sent their hand, I said, how many of you feel this incredible emotional high right now? And all of them raised their hands. And he said, I should tell you that that's going to be gone by the time you go home tomorrow. And you need to be aware of that. Because it is exactly what you're talking about is you, they come out of these situations thinking, all right, I'm on top of the world. I'm going to go kill it. And then of course reality sets back in because they were in a container that was designed to create that emotion.

Marc Brackett

Correct. I mean, emotions are ephemeral. That's the nature of an emotion. You know, anything can shift how you feel. I mean, to give you a very sad thing, a good friend of mine passed away on Monday from brain cancer. And you know, when I got the email from her family, like, I was in a perfectly pleasant state, you know, away on this nice trip, working, and boom, like just all of a sudden, right?

The sadness came in, the grief came in. You know, it's a couple days later, you know, I'm still reflecting on this person and my relationship with her, but I'm not in the same funk as I was when I first heard about it. And I think that the principle of impermanence is something that everybody needs to learn.

Srini Rao

Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, let's get into this framework that you offer in the book. I really loved it. I just thought to myself, wow, this is the most logical way I've ever seen somebody explain emotions, ironically. So you call it ruler, which basically is an acronym for recognizing, understanding, labeling, expressing and regulating. Can you get into all of those? And then I'll kind of, you know, tease each one apart because there were definitely questions I had about.

Marc Brackett

Correct.

Srini Rao

certain ones.

Marc Brackett

Sure. So recognizing emotions. Right now, because we're recording this, I don't know what your facial expression looks like, I don't know what your posture looks like. I'm kind of inferring how you're feeling about how this is going through how you're speaking in the tone of your voice. In everyday life, it's through eyes, movements of the mouth and nose, people's behavior.

my self-awareness about what's going on for my physiology, what's going on in my head, am I thinking positive thoughts or negative thoughts? Do I feel energized? Do I feel depleted? That's all the first are. The you is understanding emotions. Like, why am I feeling this way? What's the difference between feeling anxious and overwhelmed and afraid and stressed? Do you know that 99% of the people I asked that to have no clue? They just can't tell the difference. They don't know the difference between those feelings.

then there's labeling emotions. If I'm anxious, am I really anxious, like panicky, or am I just feeling uncomfortable? Am I happy or am I ecstatic or just content? That's the L in ruler. The E is expressing emotions. For example, can I be my true self with you on this podcast? Do I feel safe, comfortable, really being my true self, or am I being more cautious?

Same thing with my relationships at work, at home. Can I be my true feeling self, you know, expressing wise? And then the last R, which is something that I think people have really been desperate for, is the regulation. What are the strategies to regulate?

Srini Rao

Hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Hmm. Well, let's talk specifically about recognition because it's funny that you were talking about recognition. And I never thought about this in the context of, oh, you know, I can talk to somebody and I might be aware enough to recognize their own their emotions. But until you just said that, I never thought, am I actually capable of recognizing my own emotions or do you think most of us are just sort of blind to it? Like, I think I kind of understand how I feel.

Marc Brackett

Well, the thing is that, again, going back to that black belt idea, right, none of us even got a yellow belt in self-awareness. And so if you don't get taught the words and their meaning, it's hard to articulate. And so I think most of us actually are not that clear about how we're feeling. You know, we say we're stressed when we're feeling anxious. We say we're angry when we're disappointed. So

Gotta learn the words, you gotta learn their meanings, and you gotta repeat that over and over again.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, let's talk about understanding because you say the core school of understanding is the search for the underlying theme or possible cause that fuels the emotion. We're not asking questions and listening to answers just to provide a sympathetic ear as we listen. We're looking for a meaning that goes deeper than the words being said. And this just reminds me of growing up with my mom. My mom was pretty notorious for her emotional outburst. Every now and then they still happen. But.

It was one of those things where we were taught not to challenge her at all and just to accept that this was the way it was. And that's very much a cultural thing where we were not allowed to express certain emotions either. You know, like kids in particular in our culture were taught that, you know, you just keep quiet and be obedient. You don't speak up.

Marc Brackett

And so your question is, is that good or bad? Ha ha ha.

Srini Rao

Well, yeah, well, no, the question is like, you know, the thought that I could actually sit there and, you know, ask my mom questions seems unlikely. Yeah, when we she's in the middle of one of these outbursts, it's like, I'm not going to get any, you know, I'm not going to make any headway if I try to ask her questions.

Marc Brackett

Uh-huh.

Marc Brackett

Correct. You never want to do it in the middle of the outburst anyway because people's brains are not in the right place to do that. But you bring up this idea of mindsets around emotion and my hunch is that you grew up in a family where there was a very fixed mindset. This is who I am. I'm never going to change. This is how you're going to have to accept it. My father had serious anger problems and he'd say, son, this is how I deal with things.

Srini Rao

death.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Marc Brackett

get over it. I'm like, all right, dad, well, I guess I'll be in therapy for 20 years. You know, it's like, get over it. I guess I'll become a psychologist and run around the world getting people to talk about their feelings. And so, you know, I don't want to dismiss culture, because I think you bring up an example. It's not for me, the, you know, the gringo Americano to judge Indian families' decision making around emotions.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Hmm.

Marc Brackett

But I can't ask questions to you and your mom around, was it helpful, was it unhelpful? Could you have seen it, can you have seen things done differently? And then maybe there's a little bit of reflection and conversation.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, it's funny because I, as I was reading this book, I was going to ask you about this story. I remember my mom was very insistent that the dishwasher be loaded a certain way. It just was one of those things where she nitpicked on it. And I remember we got into a fight because I was just irritated that day because she was asking me to do it so many times. And I am pretty sure it had nothing to do with the dishwasher, at least from my side, my irritation did. So I go to therapy.

And the therapist says, you've been coming here for six months. We've been having this conversation. He said, listen, he's like, you can either go to battle with your mom or accept the fact that this is going to change. And I went home and I told my dad that he said, I could have told you that. You didn't know to keep. He's like, you didn't need to spend 50 bucks on therapy for that. He's like, I would have told you that. But on the flip side of that, my dad actually does not express emotion. I realize he I've never I've seen my dad angry maybe five times in my entire.

Marc Brackett

Thanks for watching!

Srini Rao

And so what him?

Marc Brackett

First, I was thinking to myself, by the way, maybe if you spent $150 on therapy, you would have gotten better advice. But I'm just kidding.

Srini Rao

Well, the contrast is so stark, right? He's like a Zen Buddhist and, you know, and she's honestly like, I think that my creativity comes from her. And there are times where I wish I had more of his temperament. You know, I definitely know my creativity comes from her because she's a very creative person. Because she was an English major, I was like, okay, this is probably where I learned to, you know, intuitively write. But the contrast of the two. I wonder.

Marc Brackett

Uh huh.

Srini Rao

What impact do you think that has on how somebody turns out as an adult when you have two parents were so different like that when it comes to their emotional, you know, they're just variability and emotion.

Marc Brackett

Yeah, but I think it depends on what your relationship was like with each of them, who you felt more connected to, who you felt made you feel the safest, the most secure.

Srini Rao

Oh, definitely my dad. I mean, even to this day where I think there's still, when I am in a situation that drives me along, makes me anxious or scared, I don't go to my mom. Like, I'm honestly, I would say I'm scared of her to some degree.

Marc Brackett

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so you're answering the question, right? And so I think the, I mean that's.

Srini Rao

and I was terrified of her growing up.

Marc Brackett

Yeah. And so part of, does she know that?

Srini Rao

You know, with I don't know that I want to have that conversation with her, but who knows? I will tell you. I'll tell you a story that kind of maybe answers some of this. So, you know, if you're Indian, you know, one of the pressures is always going to be to get married. And we got in a really, really big fight. One that, you know, final like I to me, that was the final straw. I told me that I was like, I'm done. I if she wants to have a relationship, then she needs to apologize. And then.

Marc Brackett

Hehehe

Marc Brackett

Okay.

Srini Rao

Maybe a year later, I was doing these interviews with my family right after my sister's wedding, and who knows, maybe it was because I had a microphone on her and I was recording it, and I just asked her, I said, look, are you unhappy that I'm not married? Because that's definitely been a source of tension between us. And she said, it's not that I'm not unhappy. She said, I'm worried about what's going to happen to you when we're no longer around. And I realized that all of it was coming from a good place just expressed in a way that, you know, really hurt me.

Marc Brackett

I mean, that's interesting for me to hear from you because it brings up this bottled up fear, right? Because it's all fear, that's what I'm hearing. And your mother felt uncomfortable or didn't want to put whatever pressure or whatever it was on you, and so she bottles it up. And I think this is at the heart of what I hope could change in relationships because you resent her.

She's anxious and worried about telling you things and then your relationship diminishes. And so imagine what it'd be like if, you know, A, she could have that conversation with you and B, you could say, you know, mom, I appreciate the fact that you feel afraid about that, but like, I just want you to know, like, I'm doing good. And, you know, how different, you know.

families could be.

Srini Rao

Now, let's talk about labeling in particular. That really struck me. This is where I started to draw the conclusion that maybe I'm emotionally illiterate because I thought to myself, you know, you said without a proper vocabulary, we can't label our emotions. And if we can't label them, we can't properly consider them or put them into perspective. And you say that attaching the correct label to the emotion is critical because we've labeled a feeling we've also began to figure out what to do about it.

If we assume incorrectly that our child is feeling anxious, we fail to address the actual emotion, perhaps embarrassment, maybe fear, both of which can look a lot like anxiety from the outside. Imprecise labeling can lead us astray as we search for ways to resolve negative emotions. And I don't think I'd ever heard the term emotional vocabulary until you read your book.

Marc Brackett

Yeah, I mean, think about it. If we don't have a common language to talk about our inner lives, how do we communicate? How does a kid tell their parent what they're feeling? How does a parent help their kid identify their feelings? And so I think it's that simple. If we wanna be able to communicate our needs, if we wanna be able to express ourselves, we need a common vocabulary, and that's an emotion vocabulary.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Let's talk about expressing. You say that expressing emotions is like a transaction between people. You and I react, and back and forth, we may come to understand each other and be better off for it. But the opposite could also be true. Your expressed emotions might provoke something negative in me, something I'm not prepared to deal with or control. And I think the reason I wanted to talk about expressing in particular is that this was the one that really struck me, because I realized we were really taught not to express emotions in our family. I've seen.

Marc Brackett

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

my parents kiss each other once. Like my parents are not physically affectionate with each other. And I remember when I discovered love languages, I thought, wow, the two love languages that are mine, which are physical touch and words of affirmation, are the two things that Indian parents in general, like not mine alone, they just happen to be the example we're using here. It's just not common in the culture. So I'm very curious, like generally across cultures, you've traveled around the world, what have you seen as the difference in emotional expression across cultures? Particularly, you know,

when it comes to things like affection and love, but also anger, because I can tell you, there are things that I wanna express where I'm just like, okay, if I don't keep quiet about this, the consequences are gonna be far worse than just dealing with it.

Marc Brackett

Well, I think that assumes that expressing means overreacting, right, and being aggressive. And that doesn't have to be that way. I mean, you can communicate you're angry in a way that's very easily understood by just sharing the experience. Just want to let you know, I didn't appreciate what you just said. It really was off-putting, and I want to talk about it, as opposed to, who the blank do you think you are? You blank and blank blank? Which is easier.

Srini Rao

What's the difference between the two?

Marc Brackett

You don't have to craft. It's easier to just blurt it out than it is to craft a message that will help people listen. And I think the goal when you're expressing is to be heard. And if you're yelling, screaming, throwing, not very helpful. In terms of culture, there are cultural rules around this. Eye contact, touch.

And I think what's most important is not to go in as the judge, it's to go in as a learner. And so I've got tons of examples, you know, being in Korea with my martial art or in Croatia, giving a speech or in Italy, you know. I love going to Italy, right? The rule is like you get kissed three times. So like, let's go there. Other cultures, they bow to you. And like, I don't think it matters.

The question shouldn't be what's better, what's worse, what's right, what's wrong. The question should be, let me learn about this and use it.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, speaking of which, this was a ridiculous question I knew I wanted to ask you. One of the things you say is some of us are also unaware when we're actually expressing certain emotions, we think we're masking our true feeling or showing a poker face, but our micro-expressions, which can include that subtle fake smile, quick eye roll, or flirtatious gaze into someone's eyes reveals something very different might be going on underneath. And I thought to myself, you know what, Mark, can you tell me how to spot which girl in a bar or coffee shop or restaurant is gonna be open to being approached based on the things you have in your book?

Marc Brackett

I can tell you that if you go in looking for those micro-expressions, you're going to look really freaking weird, so don't do it. Exactly. So I suggest don't obsess on it. But it's practice. So much of this stuff is just paying attention to the cues. And they're subtle. That subtle contempt is...

Srini Rao

Like a psychopath stalker and murderer. Yeah

Marc Brackett

It's interesting how much it reveals. But yeah, I wouldn't waste time. Yeah.

Srini Rao

Well, I think back to college, you know, with experiences I had with girls who, looking back and even some of them told me, it's like clearly they were interested and I just completely overlooked it. I didn't even recognize the signs. Because I didn't know anything about things like this. Like, oh, that was clearly a sign that girl would have absolutely said yes if I asked her out on a date.

Marc Brackett

Yeah, I mean this is part of the reason why we want to move away from observing behavior and getting to know each other by asking and building intimacy, right? So it's like all we have is assumption when we're looking at face and body and behavior. We have no actual information. Yes, they say a lot of our communication is nonverbal, but I'm here to tell you that most of that nonverbal behavior...

is discombobulated in the observer. And so...

I just think go for what you want, ask for what you want, as opposed to living in this world of what might happen.

Srini Rao

Assumptions? No. Let's talk about regulation in particular. You say emotional regulation is at the top of the rule or hierarchy. It's likely the most complex of the five skills and most challenging. It's nearly impossible to imagine what life would be like without the power to regulate our emotions. You've been doing it since you were born and you've done it to some degree or other every minute of your waking life. And what I wonder is why...

Some people are so good at this and some just go from one extreme to another. Because I can tell you that if I look at 20 year old me versus 43 year old me, my emotional regulation skills are definitely better now. They were extreme when I was younger. I feel like I would go from being elated to being just beyond depressed in 24 hours when I was young and it was like, Oh, a girl broke up with me and it was the end of the world.

Marc Brackett

Mm-hmm.

Marc Brackett

And so, well, that's adolescence, just so you know. So that's puberty and other kind of things going on in your life that, you know, lots of mood swings, which is normal. What was your specific question, though?

Srini Rao

What happened? Yeah.

Srini Rao

Hmm.

Yeah, I guess, why do we get better at it with age? And then I know you go into these four specific strategies on how to do it. And so how do we do it and how do we practice these strategies?

Marc Brackett

Well, I think the first is that you're put into situations where you have to do it. When you're younger, you're controlled in many ways. And so in the real world, you're in a job interview. You've got to like, you can't say how you want to. Mark, don't say it. You're not going to get the job if you tell the person how you really feel about them. If you play sports, the team is regulating itself. You've got to work together to win.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Marc Brackett

You have just much more opportunity as you develop. It doesn't mean always that you get better at it. Sometimes you get worse at it. You can develop better. I'm better, listen to me. You can develop worse habits. If you yell and you get away with it and you keep on yelling, then you become a bully as you get older and you try to make your life, you get through life by being a bully. We've seen that happen in our country.

People have become extraordinarily successful as bullies. I think those people die very lonely, but I want to separate you can be successful by not regulating. I just don't think you get the complete success of wellness, good relationships, better mental health.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Now, well, I don't want to talk. I mean, you break this up into four categories. Mindfulness is one of those things I think we've pretty much beat like a dead horse. So I don't want to spend time on that. But you talk about, yeah. So you talk about forward-looking strategies, attention shifting, and cognitive reframing. Can you explain what each one of those is?

Marc Brackett

Yeah, everybody's breathing.

Marc Brackett

Yeah, so forward-looking strategies have to do with, you know, I got to think like, for example, I was actually in a call before this podcast and it was kind of going a little off and then I hung up and I had about 10 minutes and I was like, all right, Mark, you're going to record this podcast. Like what mindset do you want to be in? And I'm like, well, I got to clear my head. I want to make a cup of coffee and just kind of like compartmentalize and put that into, you know, a bucket. And so that's forward-looking. It's saying...

This is how I want to feel and this is how I want to get there. It's the same thing like if you have a relative that you have to go visit and you know they're going to drive you out of your mind. You think ahead like, how can I avoid sitting next to them at dinner? That's a prevention way of thinking about regulation.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

That's me getting dressed up and making sure that I have my haircut when I see my mom.

Marc Brackett

There you go. It's like, I just don't want to deal with her baloney about how I look, so I'm gonna just go in this way.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Marc Brackett

And then the second one you said is the cognitive strategies, if I'm correct, right? Yeah, so this positive self-talk and reframing. I think for me the most important thing there is that by some wave of a terrible magic wand, many of us grew up having quite a lot of negative self-talk about our appearance, about our skills, about everything. And nowhere in our development do we have people ask us to pause and say, wait a minute, like.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm reframing. Yeah

Marc Brackett

Why are you talking to yourself this way? There's better ways to talk to yourself. Like maybe you can be more self compassionate. And so cognitive strategies range from negative self-talk to I hate myself, I'm an idiot, to positive self-talk, which is like, Mark, you can get through this podcast. You can do it. And then the reframing is, you know, we blame a lot of people. Like, I can't believe you said that.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Marc Brackett

or endless kinds of things where reframing is saying, all right, Mark, there's gotta be another way to look at it. If I have an employee who's not doing such a great job on a task that I assigned them, I could just say, oh, I never hire any good to be good. Or I can say to myself, well, wait a minute, Mark, this person is brand new. You've given them very ambiguous directions.

Maybe you can find out what's really going on and help that person. So that's the reframe or the reappraisal. Really important.

Srini Rao

Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, I remember you tell a great story about one of your students in the book who I think you said was trying to get out of an exam or something like that. So I get the sense that the reframing is not about lying to yourself, which I feel like often happens where people try to delude themselves into believing things that aren't true.

Marc Brackett

I mean, it can be, that would be not helpful reframing. This happens a lot in abusive relationships where the one partner who is gaslighting the other partner says things like, oh, you're just so sensitive, or oh, this, oh, this, and then the other partner starts believing it, and so it creates a pretty...

Srini Rao

Yeah, totally.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Marc Brackett

nasty self-fulfilling prophecy.

Srini Rao

Well, one area, and I know you've got to get going here, so I want to be mindful of our time, but I wanted to ask you about the role that Stoicism plays in all of this, because there's a lot of talk about Stoicism with people like Ryan Holiday writing an entire trilogy on Stoicism, and multiple people talking about this, people like Tim Ferriss saying, but this is kind of their operating system. So how do these two things coexist, or can they? Because I don't get the sense that Stoicism is not about

expressing your emotions. So can they co-exist with what you're talking about with expressing your feelings?

Marc Brackett

Well, I think anything too is, you know, just like, you know, people always ask me, but do you want, like I had somebody who worked with me, who from the business world, and he came up to me, he's like, does this mean I have to talk about my feelings all day long and everybody that comes into my office, I have to ask them how they're feeling and we have to talk about this. I'm like, absolutely, like, I don't wanna do that. And this is like what I do for a living. Like, there's a time and a place for everything. So there's a time and a place for stoicism and there's a time and a place for...

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Marc Brackett

using emotions wisely. I think that we kind of like create all these like mental models that like it's either this or that. And I think the better way to think about it is that we are creatures that are cognitive, social, and emotional. And our emotions play a big part of what makes us human, from how we connect to how we make informed decisions to how we deal with conflict.

you know, and creativity. And so...

Srini Rao

Yeah, it's funny because I think I wrote down somewhere, and you're making me change my mind about this, is like emotions cloud our judgment. And I realize it's not that they cloud our judgment, they determine it, and being aware of those emotions is what allows us to have better judgment.

Marc Brackett

Yes, it's not that the emotion clouds your judgment. Again, it's always the emotion that you're experiencing that you're not aware you're experiencing that clouds your judgment.

Srini Rao

Yeah, well, yeah, no, it totally does.

Marc Brackett

Does that make sense?

It's like anger doesn't... People, you can be angry and make a good decision. You just have to know how to... You have to recognize that anger and manage it wisely, and then you're fine to make a decision.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, I want to be respectful of your time because I know you've got to get going. A lot of parents listen to this, and we started out talking about school and education. What do you want parents listening to this to know? Parents and educators in particular.

Marc Brackett

Mm-hmm.

Marc Brackett

I think it's interesting, I do literally hundreds of seminars for families as well as in the corporate sector and parents come to these workshops thinking that like Mark's going to teach me tips on how to raise an emotionally intelligent child. And

Srini Rao

I'm thinking to myself, yeah, no, it's like, I'm going to teach you to how to, you know, be an emotionally intelligent adult was the sense that I got from the book.

Marc Brackett

Exactly. And so you took the words out of my mouth, which is, and they leave there thinking, oh crap, I got a lot of work to do on building my own skills. And so my take home message for people is build your vocabulary, learn the strategies, be the role model. And that in and of itself is going to be a tremendous help for raising happy and successful kids.

Srini Rao

Well, I have two more questions for you. And we'll wrap things up for, you know, we talked about, you know, raising happy and successful kids. How do people make themselves happy and successful using this? Because I think if there's anything your book did for me, it just made me much more aware than anything else. It was like, Oh, I have a level of emotional awareness now that I didn't before.

Marc Brackett

I'm glad to hear that. But I don't know what's the question.

Srini Rao

Yeah, sorry. I guess what you know, what is your message ultimately to adults listening to this? You know, I said, we basically, you know, said, okay, to parents, but for adults, just navigating the world in general.

Marc Brackett

I think it's give yourself the permission to feel. It's why, you know, it was a controversial title for my book because some people are like, oh gosh, it's like, you know, permission to feel, you know, who's giving me permission to feel, you know? And I say, well, I don't know if you really think about it. Most of us don't feel like we can be our true, full feeling selves with everybody. And so don't be the judge of your feelings, be the curious emotion scientist.

and allow yourself to experience all emotions. They're information. They're not idiosyncratic impulses that will make you go to the dark side.

Srini Rao

Amazing. Well, I have one last question for you, which is how we finish all of our interviews with the unmistakable creative. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Marc Brackett

Okay.

Marc Brackett

What do I think it is that makes somebody unmistakable? I might need a little help with that in terms of like definite defining unmistakable.

Srini Rao

Well, yeah, of course. Yeah, so when you write a book called Unmistakable, as you know, having written a book, you have to define it. So I define it as something that is so distinctive that nobody else could do it but you.

Marc Brackett

Yeah.

Marc Brackett

I think it's being your true, fulfilling self. That's it. Just be who you are and allow your true self and identity to flourish.

Srini Rao

Amazing. Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your wisdom and your insights and stories with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you, your work, the book, and everything you're up to?

Marc Brackett

Yeah, I think the simplest is just go directly to my personal website which is just mark, M-A-R-C bracket, B-R-A-C-K-E-T-T dot com. And then from there you can learn about our apps, you can learn about our work in the business world, and the research as well.

Srini Rao

Amazing. And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.