Marc Champagne | Using the Socratic Method to Ask Questions that Will Upgrade Your Life

Yeah, yeah.

Srini Rao

 Marc, welcome to the Unmistakable Creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Can't wait. Let's do this.

Marc Champagne

Thank you, I can't wait man.

Srini Rao

I am so thrilled to have you here. I found out about you and your work by way of the team at Baron Fig and as a person who is obsessed with notebooks and journals, it was kind of an instant yes. I didn't even realize what I was getting myself into and I know we're talking for the second time because we had to reschedule but I just finished reading your book this morning, Personal Socrates and I thought, wow, this is a really, really cool book and there's a lot of really interesting ideas in here.

But before we get into that, speaking of questions, I thought we'd start by asking you, what is one of the most important things that you learned from one or both of your parents that have influenced and shaped who you've become and what you ended up doing with your life?

Marc Champagne

Sorry, say that one of the most, because I think there was a wifi cut, one of the most important.

Srini Rao

What is one of the most important things that you learned from one or both of your parents that have influenced where you've ended up with your life and what you ended up doing?

Marc Champagne

I mean, the characteristic that comes to mind all the time is just to live life with a kind mindset. I grew up with a really loving set of parents that I remember when my dad passed, he just, the amount of people that were at that funeral and that the comments that were left behind was just like he was just such a loving and caring God. And no matter what, he was a happy individual.

and left people excited and energized when he was in the room. And that's honestly my main goal in life. Because you know how it is, especially in the podcasting world, like for me, there's nothing that energizes me more than connecting with awesome humans on the other side of the mic, you being one of those. And there's nothing worse than leaving a conversation like that feeling drained. Right? So my objective is always...

to leave that person on the other side more energized than when they came into the conversation and just feeling good.

Srini Rao

How old were you when your dad passed? Was this when you're younger or did this happen as an adult?

Marc Champagne

Yeah, it would have been as an adult. I think it's been about five years now.

Srini Rao

The reason I asked is because...

One of the things I learned from talking to Frank Ostasecki at the Zen Hospice Project Was that we tend to undervalue the time that we have left with the people who matter most and I remember telling him I said, you know, like for this long time I had this really persistent fear that I might end up alone and as I started getting older I thought you know, actually I'm not afraid of being alone What I'm more scared of is that my parents wouldn't be here to see milestone moments in my life And he said well don't wait for those big moments, you know spend time with them now, but

The other thing that I wonder is, you know, I've heard people tell me that losing a parent is something you just you never get over it, you move on. But I wonder, like, you know, how you process such a painful experience, you know, because I, to me, it's one of those things that I don't think anybody can ever understand it, no matter how many books you read, no matter how many podcasts you listen to until you've experienced it yourself.

Marc Champagne

Yeah, it's, you're right. I mean, it's challenging. And I think what's the most challenging for me, especially where I'm at in my life right now, he passed away about three months before my son was born. And, you know, that's the challenging piece is that, you know, obviously I know my dad and my wife's, you know, been around for...

a decade plus before he passed as well. And just that feeling that my little guy won't be able to experience his grandfather or the same way that I did. And then the other thing too is just like everything going on in my world, he passed away right when I basically left the corporate arena and jumped into the whole entrepreneurial space. And he didn't get to see some of the outcomes that took.

and some of the life explosions that took place on my journey with the app and whatnot. And then now with the book, there would be nothing that would make me smile more than to hand them a physical copy of this book. So, you know, for me I think it's just knowing, for anyone that passes, knowing they're there. And I often think of something I learned from

Maya Angelou actually, in the book actually, and just keeping those people really close to you and when you need them, for example, if you're about to deliver a presentation or about to work on a big project where there's fear or anxiety or uncertainty to close your eyes and bring those people that you know love you and support you and they're there with you. May not be there physically, but they're there in spirit and you know that they've got your back. So I bring my dad to light.

in many situations from that perspective.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Yeah, it's funny. I had Alex Benion here. You may know him. He wrote a book called The Third Door. And I remember it was right when the book came out. And in that same year, his dad had passed away. And I remember him telling me, he said, you know, people think that I am, you know, dealing with a book launch while, you know, navigating the loss of my father. And he said, the reality is I'm dealing with the loss of my father while navigating a book launch. And, you know, I remember and I remember, you know, he said, you know,

Marc Champagne

Yeah, I do.

Srini Rao

brought me to tears during an interview. And I said, not intentionally, but I remember thinking at that time that, wow, you know, for a moment I was envious because my books didn't do as well. And I said, you know what? I wouldn't trade a single book sale if it meant I'd get less time with my dad.

Marc Champagne

Yeah, yeah, of course.

Srini Rao

So what actually ended up putting you on this trajectory that you're on to end up where you're at and to write this book in particular, all the books that you could write? How did you end up here?

Marc Champagne

Yeah, yeah, it's a good question because I mean I would have Thinking back to my parents and you know when I was living at home and whatnot and where I grew up like I never imagined That I would write a book. It just it kind of happened, you know and what Facilitated that was after I spent about a decade in the health care space in In the corporate environment in various roles sales analytics and at the very end or the majority of my career

I was in product management. And I share that just because during those years, the consistent that actually led to a lot of the work that I'm doing now was that I was getting up earlier in the morning and I was reading positive things, positive content, trying everything possible to fuel my mind with good mental nutrition. And that started because when I came out of university, my first job was in sales and I remember thinking,

everyone's being trained up in the same way. So how possibly am I gonna stand out in this group if we're all going through the same training? And for whatever reason, I just, I started reading and started getting up earlier. And it didn't take long to realize that the Robin Sharms of the world or like Tony Robbins, or at that time I remember I was reading Success Magazine and you've got Jack Canfield and John Asrath, like all these interesting humans that were being profiled.

they were all taking time to think and taking time to answer good reflective questions. So I just started doing that. I started writing down the questions that I would see in this content and I started answering them from the perspective of where I was at in my life personally and professionally. And I did that for, like I said, probably about eight to 10 years until eventually.

getting frustrated, or I got frustrated with the digital options that were available at that time. Because at that time, this would have been about three, four years ago now, the meditation apps, Calm, Headspace, and Insight Timer and whatnot, they were all really starting to take off from a mainstream perspective. But there was nothing out there that was helping people get into a practice like journaling. Essentially, that's what I was doing, right? It was taking content.

Marc Champagne

and reflecting, that's all journaling is, is reflection, that's the practice. And I was doing it digitally because I was traveling quite a bit with those various roles. And like I said, there was just nothing that existed that would be a nice seamless experience of taking prompts, which is what I was getting from that content, and then reflecting on them. So essentially I set out to create that and flip my brother-in-law an email, and who was also the co-founder of the app that we created, KEO. And we...

we started bringing in some of the names that you were mentioning. They were in that app, like Cal Fussman and so forth. That was, I think we were talking about him before we hit record, but there was all of these different people that were providing the reflective questions that were important in their lives at some point, or that they were thinking about on a frequent basis, including brands like VaynerMedia and Lego and LinkedIn and so forth. And we launched the app and it did well in the sense that

We reached about 86.9 million people in the first couple years from an App Store impression standpoint. And we had a decent amount of users in the app. And that's really what, and I'll pause here because I said a lot, but that's really what got me directly involved in what I call the mental fitness space.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, I think there are a couple of questions that, you know, surface for me about this. You actually went and did something with this material, whereas I think that there's, you know, a large subset of people. In fact, I jokingly say the personal development industry is basically built on people who consume a lot of content, but don't do anything with it. You know, you have, I always say it's like there's these three groups of people. It's like the people who would get a result if they did the thing or not, because that's how they're wired. The second group who, you know,

consuming this thing becomes a catalyst for them like you. And then there's a third group who just keeps going back to the same thing over and over. Steven Coller and I were talking about this, it's like these people become seminar junkies. So based on your perspective, why does that happen? And then the thing that struck me most that you said about the app was, I was not just deleting an app from the store, I was deleting my identity from the last three years, the motivation surrounding a new idea and any hopes of helping millions of people with one action from my finger.

on my touchpad. At least this, that is what I was hearing from my internal narrative. Let's start with the first question first, but then I'll follow up with this because I think there's a lot on that second one too.

Marc Champagne

Yeah, I mean, so I mean, just I think just with the space in general, I mean, realistically, a lot of that work falls in people on people's laps or in front of their eyes at, you know, let's just be honest, like some of the hardest times that those people are facing. And, you know, like any human, I think we seek certainty in some capacity. Right. So when you when you.

bring in this content, especially a lot of the marketing that's linked up with much of the industry, which unfortunately, I don't agree with a lot of it because I think it's almost plain taking victim of people for what I just mentioned, right? And people are in tough places and you're hooking them in with these click funnels and things like that. And there's a sense that, okay, if I just read this next book or just take this next course, that the answer or the...

that the path will appear. And there's some truth to that in the sense that I think that some clarity can be found if you're going through the motions, but going through that process I should say, but most of the time it's just that. You're going through the motions and you're actually not stopping and pausing and applying the actual content, right? I think that's the big thing. And that's why I'm so obsessed with questions because naturally questions allow us to

pause, think, and then take some sort of action or shift or perspective. That's what excites me about this space. I'm not inventing journaling and I'm not inventing questions, but what I'm trying to do is meet people where they're at in their lives right now with a powerful question to help facilitate that pause. And then...

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Marc Champagne

Hopefully through the story of either who, you know, I'm profiling, whether that's a Picasso or Steven Kotler, for example, that there's enough relatability there with either the work or personal life that you get the person's attention, but then through the questions, you actually apply that and that's where the change can happen, right?

Srini Rao

Absolutely. Well, let's talk about, you know, what you said about deleting this app, because I think that, you know, particularly for creative people, their work and their identity gets so intertwined. You know, it took me a long time to get past that, ironically, despite writing a book about creativity for its own sake. I remember to this day, my sister calls me and she's like, you don't even believe what you wrote in your own book. No wonder nobody's buying it. And, you know, it was ironic because the entire message of the book was not to worry about metrics. And I was freaking out about book sales.

Marc Champagne

Yeah.

Srini Rao

But that's easier said than done. I remember Ryan Holiday once told me on this show, he said, you know, if your happiness depends on, you know, sort of external factors, like how many books you sell, et cetera, it's a recipe for profound disappointment. And I remember putting that quote on Facebook and Ryan replied saying, easier said than done.

Marc Champagne

Yeah, well totally. Like I mean, I'm in that right now as well with my book and it's easy to get sucked into jumping on Amazon rankings and bestseller lists and stuff like that. And especially, you know, I'm super grateful for this with the book debuted on a couple bestseller lists at number two, which I was pumped, but I learned.

enough from the app experience? Because what listeners don't know, I mean the quote you shared is from the introduction of the book, but what happened with reaching all of those people, that didn't mean, with the app, that didn't mean that our business was sound. And unfortunately, we ran out of money, we ran out of mental capacity to keep that business going, so I had to hit delete from App Store. Right, so the learning or the insight coming from that experience is kind of porting itself over to this book experience that

The lesson being don't fall for your own hype. For all intents and purposes, and I would have thought the same thing, that team, those people must be killing it. How do you reach 86.9 million people and not have a booming business? Or we had all these magazine articles and collaborations with, like I said, the VaynerMedia's of the world and LinkedIn and big brands, right?

Srini Rao

Ha ha ha.

Marc Champagne

which is good from a marketing standpoint, but that again, I really think you can't connect that or be jaded by that hype if your business isn't actually working.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Yeah, it's funny because I've been going back to Reid Hoffman's book, Blitz Scaling, and he talks about that. He said, you know, like, if you don't have a business model behind technology, you know, that goes with it, he said, then you're kind of screwed. And I, you know, I went to Berkeley during the first dot com boom. And you know, as jokingly saying with a friend, I was like, you've never seen so many smart people do so many stupid things. It was just like, you know, you could put dot com on the end of anything. And I remember going to this party that was filled with some of the most prominent venture

Marc Champagne

Yeah.

Srini Rao

It was in San Francisco at an art gallery and this company was now and was announcing that they were now Charging for a service that had been free. I'm like, let me get this straight So you're charging for a service that was previously free and the way to do that is by throwing a party that cost a shitload of money Any CFO would have been like what the fuck? But you know people lost their minds during that time

Marc Champagne

Yeah.

Yeah.

Marc Champagne

Yeah, of course. Well, and it's just, I don't know. I mean, you know, I went through that experience. It was insightful. It's the only reason I am speaking with you and enabled to have these type of conversations, which like I said, at the top of our conversation, lights me up, right? Energizes me, for example. But you know, I don't wanna repeat those habits or those mistakes. And so I've, with this book launch,

I've gone into this really trying to practice or follow what I'm preaching with the practices and go in very clear. I mean, I know I've given it, and the publisher and the team has given the book a solid push to reach as many people as possible, because I really believe in the work. And I think I really do believe that we're all one question away from a completely different path or life. So that's the purpose behind this. But at the same time,

I mean, I already got the value out of the experience. I mean, the experience was that I've never written a book before and now I have a published book. And I learned a lot in the last year and a half putting this thing together and I can't wait to do more of these projects. So, it sounds cliche, you hear this all the time, but the value is in the journey. And I feel like we all have to hear that or it's, because it's not the first time I've heard that.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Marc Champagne

but it didn't land until I really started working on this book. And I think we like, we're all at different places in our lives that eventually that, I hope at least, eventually that principle or that thought will land with someone. And then life just lightens when that happens.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Well, it's funny because I think I had the same exact experience. I mean, mine was a bit twisted because I had a self-published book that became a Wall Street Journal bestseller very unexpectedly. And then I get a book deal. So imagine going in with that as your baseline. You feel kind of like Elizabeth Gilbert did. And I know for a fact that my books that I wrote with the publisher are far more well written and they're much better books and they didn't sell nearly as well. And it took me a long time to make my peace with that.

was that, as you say, it's in the journey. And they always say, people always say, it's not what you get, but who you become. And of course, nobody expands beyond that. And what I realized was the person you become as a byproduct of writing a book is a person who can take a vague idea and make it happen, which is a skill that you can apply to damn near anything. And I realized that's gonna be invaluable for the rest of my life.

Marc Champagne

Yeah, totally. I mean, well, that's what I'm experiencing now. And like the reason I'm focusing on going through this process as clear as possible is because I can feel that there are different opportunities that are popping up from all different avenues that, you know, I don't want to fall for the bright and shiny object. I want to go in the direction that I know will help support my ultimate goals of building, you know, a nice ecosystem to help people with their mental fitness.

book is one, but my show is another, and there's a lot of corporate work that I'm doing as well, helping teams ask better questions essentially and bring in these practices. All of these things fuel each other, and we saw that with the app. That's why we reach so many people. We were collaborating and bringing in all of these different angles and different pieces of content and different companies and people.

and all making sure that everything was fueling, in this case, that whole ecosystem, right? So it's the same thing, essentially, that I'm trying to do. It's just I'm coming in, I think you mentioned this, but I'm basically coming in as a different person. I am a completely different human, and so is my wife, frankly, going through this whole entrepreneurial world of the app. We're just different people from who we were five years ago.

and it feels nice to have evolved to this place and know that just like what you just said with your first book, and for me it resonates with our app, it's possible to reach 86.9 million people. I mean, we did it. Never would I have predicted that, but it's possible. And there's so many other things that are possible as long as we can see them, right? And we're on the path that makes sense.

Srini Rao

So before we start getting sort of into the framework of the book, I wanted to ask you one last question. You're a parent and it's funny because I have this misguided idea that, you know, if I ask every parent I interview for parenting advice, someday I'll be a decent parent. Which it turns out, you know, everybody says, yeah, that's not going to work because my favorite quote I've ever heard about parenting on this show is from Sarah Peck. She was like, parenting is just a giant shit show. Basically, you screw this kid up and explain to him that we're going to fuck up. And then your job is to spend tons of money on therapy to fix everything we screwed up.

But I wonder, all joking aside, your own experience as an entrepreneur writing this book, what impact has that had on you as a parent?

Marc Champagne

Yeah.

Marc Champagne

Oh, I mean it was huge. I mean, sticking with the humor at first, I mean, I always joke that my ultimate goal is just to keep these mini-humans alive, right? And then from there, I mean, it's all bonus, essentially.

Srini Rao

Yeah, and then make sure they don't turn out to be giant assholes. No matter how much you fault your parents, you're like, it's a tall order to take this mini me and make sure they don't die and then make sure they don't turn out to be horrible humans.

Marc Champagne

Yeah.

Marc Champagne

Exactly, so just like any project, you gotta break it down into microsteps. First, keep them alive. So I think I'm so far past that. I mean, anything can happen, obviously, but I mean, we went through that stage. And then now, honestly, it's, I go right back to kinda what I learned from my parents, and I'm just doing everything possible as a dad to A, keep his curiosity at the level it's at. He's five years old. That's the age where you get nailed with questions nonstop.

Srini Rao

Hahaha

Marc Champagne

being a guy that works with questions, basically there's gonna become a natural point in his life, probably the more he goes through school, where those questions will start to diminish, and what normally happens, and we all go through this, but then all of a sudden you hit a point in your life where something explodes or something happens, and you start asking questions again. So, I mean, my ultimate goal is to try to narrow that gap and keep his curiosity.

you know, peaked and alive, because when we're asking good questions, A, and I learned this one from Chip Connolly, I mean, the most curious person in the room is also the most present. And when you're present, people feel that, and you're also present for yourself, and again, you can see a clear path for either your life or your work. So.

Yeah, so for me, that's what I'm trying to do, but at the same time, I mean, he had a huge influence in the decision to shut down that app because I remember he would have been about two or three years old. I remember coming home, doing everything possible to shield the stress of knowing that we were weighing over our heads from a financial perspective that I'm deleting this business that was supposed to be the vehicle that was gonna keep me in the space that I now know is.

absolutely the space I want to work in. I mean, you know, they pick up on these things and that was my greatest fear was, am I doing damage, right? Like we were joking about this in your, the example you gave about therapy and stuff like that. Like, am I doing damage to this child because I'm just trying to make this damn business work. So that was, you know, that was weighing heavily on me and at the end of the day, it just, it felt like it wasn't worth.

that risk and that stress, not to mention, I wasn't feeling great. And I also knew in my core that this was just one element of that journey, that I would continue down this avenue of helping people with these prompts and teaching and working in the space of mental fitness. It just so happens that vehicle was the app, but there's so many different ways to do it, right?

Srini Rao

What so before we get into the Socratic Method, I wanted to ask you about one other thing, you know, I've spent a lot of time diving into the bullet journal, which I'm sure you're familiar with. And I probably never gifted a book as much as I've gifted the bullet journal method. But your book seems like a nice compliment. It's like these two books should be, you know, given together as gifts going forward. So, you know, I will be I will be doing that going forward, because every time I I've literally given the bullet journal to more people than I can, you know,

Marc Champagne

Yeah.

Marc Champagne

Yeah. Well, thank you.

Srini Rao

to think of and I've read a thousand books so that says a lot. But let's talk briefly about handwriting in particular because I think that there is this sort of you know obsessive compulsive desire it's like hey let's get on the latest greatest app. You know there's something new that everybody says everybody needs to be on and I realize that analog in a world of you know that has gone you know extremely digital is incredibly beneficial but I don't think people really understand that and my handwriting is atrocious.

And I still find it valuable. But you worked at Baron Fig, so you probably have a much more clear view into the benefits of this.

Marc Champagne

Well, there's definitely science behind, I can't remember the exact stats, but I mean, you're definitely at a higher probability or percentage to retain the information when you physically write it out. I think there's some stats around productivity as well as creativity from pen to paper. But the thing is with this topic, and remember, I mean, I...

kind of like what you just described, I could never read my handwriting in the past and it's not the greatest now either. That's why I started on a digital front and before launching the app I was essentially typing this stuff in word processors and whatnot. Now though the realization has and this has lifted a whole a whole

array of opportunity with the practice. Because if you think of journaling from the perspective of pen to paper, which it's most often discussed, you're limited to one method. When the actual practice itself is actually reflection. And that's what I learned a decade ago when I was studying all these remarkable humans about them taking time to think. That's the reflection. So you know...

I think what's most important, forget the science and the stats, is that you actually do something to help foster thought and to have that reflection. So for you, or for people listening, maybe that's just taking a walk with a prompt and thinking about it. Maybe that's pen to paper, maybe that's using an app or recording an audiobook or calling a friend, whatever it is, I mean it doesn't necessarily matter what the vehicle is, it's the actual practice of reflection.

And now where I'm at with it is that, yeah, I mean, I'm a bit spoiled with Baron Fig and their notebooks and their product and the fact that the book is published by them so that you've got that Baron Fig quality and charm to the book. But I still use apps as well. And I use the app or I use a notebook or I take a walk based on what I need in that moment. And once you can disconnect,

Marc Champagne

the associations you have with, oh, maybe I wanna have my bookshelf lined with 15 journals over the years so I can go back to it, which there's some value to that for sure, but not as much value as in the moment, the in the moment benefits of the actual practice.

Srini Rao

Well, let's talk specifically about the Socratic method, which you break down into, you said that scholars of Socrates have noted six types of questions forming the basis of the Socratic method. Can you explain what those questions are and how we can apply them to our lives?

Marc Champagne

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, I should say, sort of I can, and that's the whole premise of why the book is structured the way it is because I remember having the discussion about the book concept and what I was writing about and essentially what I've been learning from all of these people in my own practice. And everything kept coming back to the idea of asking a big question and then a follow-up question and keep asking questions until essentially you get past the surface to the root.

cause or root objective of whatever you're working on, for example. And I was actually in conversation with the CEO of Baron Fig about this, and who has a minor in philosophy, I think. And he said, oh, so you're just talking about the Socratic method. I said, well, the Socratic what? Like I know who Socrates is and I know high level, you know, he's the guy that asks a lot of questions type thing, but that's kind of as far as it went. So when I started to dig into it, and,

At the same time, I should mention, he said, you should know the book should be really called Personal Socrates. And I said, absolutely not. I can't stand that. I'm not writing a book on philosophy. I don't consider myself a philosopher. And that sounds like a terrible idea. So I started doing the research though, and quickly, quickly started to come to this realization of, wow, you know, here's this guy Socrates.

born, you know, 469 BC. He's been around since the beginning of time. He invented this method that is essentially designed to bring more clarity and, you know, challenge assumptions and all of these different things, which are some of the question types. And we're all doing this in some capacity, but we don't even know we're doing it. And we're definitely not doing it with an intention. So that's when my curiosity was piqued.

because I could see the flow from all the interviews that I had done as well, that people were following this method, but how do we modernize it so that, you know, the fact that I can't even remember those six question types, they're in the book, obviously they're listed out, and like I said, they're clarity seeking type questions, they're challenging assumptions, there's questioning the question, but you don't remember that intuitively in day-to-day life. Like, oh, I need a...

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Marc Champagne

clarity seeking question followed up by a question by the question and then a challenge in the assumptions like it just we don't process our environment like that so that's when I started to think about okay well what do I see that's similar with the Socratic method or these question types and how I see all of these top performing humans present day and past like the Picasso's of the world and Jane Austen and so forth Maya Angelou what where's the overlap

And the overlap from what I gather, and we can use this for really anything in life, is really around three things. First, we have to get clear. So questions to help get clear and understand who we are now, who we want to become, or if it's business, how did we get to this point, where are we heading? So we understand and we're super clear on what's going on. And then the next phase is to ask questions around intentionality. So.

who comes to mind, someone like a James Clear, a habit expert and the author of Atomic Habits, but asking questions to understand, well, are the actions I'm taking supporting that person I want to become, or supporting the business that I'm trying to create? Do my habits support that? Do the systems surrounding those habits support who I am? And that's all you have to remember, because the third part...

comes by default if you're doing the first two steps. And the third one is just there's an expansion of possibility, or there's an expansion of opportunity because you can see it. You know, it's all there. It's just we, normally we can't see it because our mind is fogged with emotion, decisions, relationships that don't serve us. But soon as we start getting clear on the person that we wanna become and we start blowing out all that mental fog, or if you wanna take an example of a physical room, for example.

you go in, open the door and you tidy the place up so you can see that, oh yeah, there's a window back there, the bookshelf's in the back corner, I know I can go there to get that information because you can see it. Now all of a sudden you can see the opportunity.

Srini Rao

It's funny because I can't help but smile when I hear this. You brought up clarity as the very first thing, and I'm writing a blog post about why people don't accomplish their goals. And lack of clarity, of course, is the big one because we did a reader survey and the answers that people gave about their goals, some of them were so vague, not to pick on people but I guess I kind of am because I want them to actually accomplish something. When I saw a meaningful business that needs creativity, my joke with my team has been

Pablo Escobar's business was meaningful, it was really creative, and it was meaningful to people who were addicted to cocaine. And that was such a vague goal that I was just like, there's no way you could have Oprah as your life coach and you wouldn't make progress with a goal like this.

Marc Champagne

Yeah

Marc Champagne

Yeah, exactly.

Marc Champagne

Yeah, it's, I mean, what comes to mind as you're saying that, I remember it was an interview with John Azerath, who's created, I think, five plus multi-million dollar businesses at this point. And it was, I think it was post-interview, we were just talking about the book and some of the corporate workshops and trainings that I was spinning up. And again, this is why I love questions. He just knocked me right on the back of my chair and basically my head tilted up and I started to think and he said,

Well, how will you know when you've hit your objective? And I'm like, shit, that's a really, I have goals, obviously, but are they super clear in the sense that, be like, oh, it's that number, if it's number of books or is it number of engagements with clients, is it number of conversations on podcasts? Like what, how will you know you've arrived and hit that objective where you'd get to the point where you reassess and either create a new one or adjust or whatever?

Right? Simple question. But we, many, I mean, and I fall victim to it as well, obviously, you get caught up on the autopilot of life and work, right? So that's, again, that's why for me, and it's why the book is written in this fashion, it's like, how can we help just pause that autopilot so that the prompt is there or the story is there that shakes people up a little bit to think.

Okay yeah, I didn't really think about that from that perspective, just like how John Asrath did that for me.

Srini Rao

So you brought up this idea of knowing that you hit a particular objective, which internationalist segues for me to wondering how much is enough because you can just keep hitting this objective and you keep raising the bar. And we had Daniel Lieberman here who wrote a book called The Molecule of More, which is all about dopamine. And he said, dopamine is all about what you don't have. And he said, no matter how much you get, it will never be enough.

Marc Champagne

Mm-hmm.

Marc Champagne

Yeah, yeah. Well, what comes to mind is that, and this is a profile that I've actually re-read in my own book. It's from Jerry Colona, who's known as the, of course you're familiar with, I'm sure everyone in this book. Ha ha.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

deaf. He's been he's been a yeah, it's funny. I was trying to probably about 15 of them were have been guests on Mr.

Marc Champagne

Yeah, I love it. So, I mean, he's so, for anyone that's listening, he's known as the CEO whisper, essentially, but before that he was a really influential investor for Flatiron Ventures back in the dot com era. And the profile that I wrote on Jerry, and that was inspired by Jerry, obviously, was around the idea that everything is impermanent, right? Including.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Marc Champagne

including the emotions and the thoughts and the feelings that we're going through right now that are making us feel not the greatest, but also including the moments like the highs of seeing that number two bestseller rank on Amazon with the book, like be in those moments, good or bad, but know that they will fizzle out, they will transition. And there's a comfort there with that, knowing that we're never stuck in these extended moments like that.

Some are longer than others, don't get me wrong, but just knowing or having that confidence that life just continues to flow and evolve and everything will shift at one point. I mean, we're all gonna die at one point as well. I mean, there's an impermanence into everything. And I think that the one that comes to mind the most that gives at least a nice perspective shift for me is just thinking about our natural seasons throughout nature. You don't have...

a summer without the spring or the fall or the winter. I mean, they all work together. And some people love winter, depending on what they're doing, and others love summer, and some love both. Everyone's different. But the point being is that we're gonna flow through all these seasons, just like we're gonna flow through our life of seasons. There's not one that's any better than the other. It all stacks together to create the person we are.

Srini Rao

So one thing I wonder is how people start to actually find some semblance of clarity through these questions. And then the other one is why is it that this sort of Socratic method of thinking is not more prevalent in our education system? Because I think that as I've been going through a lot of the notes that I've taken on books and going through Sanka Arayan's book, How to Take Smart Notes, which really honestly transforms everything you think about reading and writing.

I started realizing, we're actually not trained to think.

we're trained to regurgitate, and this seems to propose the opposite.

Marc Champagne

Yeah, well, I mean, the thing is, like, I don't know where we've lost the train of thought because, I mean, the method, like I mentioned, originated from Socrates in an academic setting. And, you know, it's still there depending on which profession you're in or if you're going to school for certain professions, like obviously philosophy, but the other one that's well known would be if you're going through as a lawyer. A lot of it's based on the Socratic method.

But I think, you know, when it comes to everyone else, for example, and I put myself in that bucket, we're doing it. It's just, we're not thinking about those questions. Like we're all asking the questions like, what do I want to do? Like, where do I want to live? Who do I want to be with? I mean, those are natural, normal questions of life and also work, but they're just the starting point. We often don't take that time.

because I think because we are trained for the most part to be productive. And up until right now, productivity equates to how much stuff can I do and boxes can I check and books can I read in a day or in a month or in a year. And it's starting to shift thankfully, but I would say the vast majority of society are still on that train for example. So when you're doing that.

You know, taking time, like taking a 15 minute walk in silence without a podcast or an audio book to just be present feels unproductive. But it's incredibly productive in the sense that you're training your curiosity and those muscles for you to be present and notice the detail, which then also shows up when you're reviewing, I don't know, the brand strategy or the marketing strategy when you're like, ah, that's off.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Marc Champagne

when normally you would have just kind of glazed past that. So, you know, it's uncomforted and quite excited that things are starting to transition, or at least I'm seeing it in that avenue. And that's a lot of what I'm teaching as well, because everyone that's profiled in this book, or for the most part, my podcast as well, that the whole intent for Behind the Human, my show, is to show that these practices,

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Marc Champagne

I'm not interviewing yoga instructors and meditation coaches. I mean, those people have these practices. I'm interviewing people like Claude Silver from VaynerMedia, which is a agency known to be grinding it out and hustling. Well, she's calming the agency down, and there's actually a lot of practices in that company so that people can think at their best, which, like you've mentioned Ryan Hall today a few times, which requires stillness, right? The ideas come up when our minds are still.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Marc Champagne

that's when we do our best thought. So, yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah, no, it's funny because it just, it sounds to me like if we could sum that all up, it'd be like, you know, we need to start valuing being reflective as much as we value being productive.

Marc Champagne

Yeah, and well the thing is, but if you start studying, I mean, one of the profiles is on Marcus Aurelius. I mean, you know, you can't go much farther back in time. I mean, and if you look at, you know, what was on his plate fighting, you know, these gruesome wars and literally losing, I think 13 or 14 of his children over the course of his lifetime, dealing with this massive plague that wiped out five million or so people.

I mean, the stresses were very real there, but he was also taking time to reflect and process and get clear so that he could make good decisions, right? So the stuff isn't new. It's just a matter of how can we make this relatable to our lives today in the current ecosystem of our world and slowly get started.

Srini Rao

Yeah, it's funny because I've noticed, you know, when I write about my interviews, I tend to get a lot more out of them. You know, I've been recently turning interviews into articles and I'm noticing that I seem to really understand it and get a much more in-depth understanding of what I've learned. But you know, the ongoing joke I make with my friends is that if I could take all of the advice that I got from my podcast guests and actually apply it to my life, I'd be a billionaire with six pack abs and a harem of supermodels. But none of those things are true. Yeah. I...

Marc Champagne

Yeah, absolutely.

Srini Rao

So, yes, you know, that kind of raises the question of, you know, how much of how do you balance that sort of value of learning from external sources, but then also, you know, trusting your own sort of internal wisdom? Because I think that

One thing that I see over and over is that we become excessively dependent on external sources of knowledge and wisdom to tell us what to do with our lives. And the result of that is information overload and, you know, stupid decisions in which you don't take context into consideration. You know, I always say, like, the blatantly obvious variable that throws off any formula for success is you.

Marc Champagne

Mm-hmm.

Marc Champagne

Yeah, totally. Well, and this goes right back to, I think, one of the opening questions that you asked, and that related back to, I think you had mentioned your conversation with Steven Kotler about just being in this endless cycle of seeking knowledge and the next book or the next piece of information. I mean, for me,

this doesn't necessarily happen for me again, because, and this has been a journey, but because I'm constantly reminding myself from these people, from the podcast, that I'm being reminded of the actual practices which usually link to, okay, they're giving knowledge and they're giving reminders of what works, and then when I'm doing those things, especially when it comes to questions and taking time to think.

I'm actually coming up with the solutions to move forward. And for me, all of these practices, whether it's breath work, meditation, journaling, calm walks, I mean, there's a couple things happening. They're all training our self-awareness to level that up so we can see more and feel and experience. And then they're also allowing us to be way more present. And when you have that recipe flowing,

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Marc Champagne

or playing out, then all of a sudden, you know, when I'm done for the day and I'm going to go, you know, jam on some Legos with my five-year-old, I'm actually present with him and there. And that's the gift, just like writing the book, like back to this journey. Because then you can realize that as you're going through the journey, like this is the gift. So you're not trying to seek the next thing or going through all these feelings like I'm not enough. Not that that's not going to come up.

but you have the reminders and the tools to, oh, I just caught myself. Yeah, I'm about to log on or jump onto an Amazon list. Is that really gonna serve any good right now? Probably not. So refocus back to what you're doing. But often we don't catch that because we don't have a consistent mental fitness practice. And for me, that's been journaling over the last 12 years. And for others, it's whatever works for you to...

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Marc Champagne

to prioritize that kind of training because then it becomes intuitive. And that's the autopilot, that's the only version of autopilot that I wanna be on is that I can recognize when my mind flips into another narrative or thoughts or feelings of anxiety or uncertainty pop up, I can recognize it and course correct or re-channel or process. So that's not stacking into my mind and then clogging it up because then I can't see. I can't see for everything else.

You know, that's important.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I appreciate that so much because I think that, you know, what I realized over and over this past year is no matter what advice I get from people, no matter how many books I've read, all advice is contextual. And no matter what anybody says, you have to think about it in the context of your own life. And I've said that great advice in one context is bullshit in another.

Marc Champagne

Absolutely.

Marc Champagne

Yeah, well, and this is like, often I get asked, okay, well, what's your favorite question or what's your favorite profile in the book? And the answer to that is that it depends on what's going on. I mean, we've already talked about Jerry Colona, but I mean, his profile has been really significant over the last month or so, because it just lands with stuff that's going on in my life that it serves as a good reminder. If I think of the question that pulled me out of a...

of a depression that was leading to a severe depression during the moments of deleting the journaling app. I mean, the question that pulled me out of that was, what do I want for my life? And that was enough to pause the narrative that was looping to then think, okay, well, if that's what I want for my life, what does the ideal day look like? Who do I need to surround myself out with to get there? What's one step I need to take? Just question after question. But if you ask me that question right now...

It would serve as a nice pulse check to make sure that I'm still on the right course or right path, but it doesn't have the significance that I needed it to have three years ago to pull me out of a really tough spot. So that's why the book, you have it. So the only thing I suggest people to read from start to finish is the introduction. After that...

whip out the table of contents and pick the prompt or the person or whatever jumps off of that table of content that resonates with you because that's what's relatable right now for you, right? And then that'll lead you down a path of asking other questions and bringing again seeking or surfacing more clarity and that'll lead you to the next one and so forth and if I've done my job properly that book will evolve as your life does.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I appreciate all of this so much. I love conversations like this because fittingly, you don't give us answers. You basically leave us with a lot of questions. And I always jokingly say that I ask questions that actually don't have answers.

Marc Champagne

Yeah, well, your questions are great.

Srini Rao

Thank you. Thank you. Well, let's wrap things up. I know you got to get going. So I have two final questions for you. You had this app that reached 86 million people. You've gotten to write a book with the publisher, which I think, you know, for a lot of creative writers is a dream come true. How's your definition of what it means to be successful changed as a byproduct of all this process that you've gone through?

Marc Champagne

Yeah.

Marc Champagne

Yeah, I mean, I feel like this is a sign of a good interviewer or a good host, because the answer to that question comes full circle in how it started, or how our conversation started. And for me, the definition of success for my life is waking up feeling happy and energized and excited to have conversations like these, right? Everything else?

They're just, they're nice to have. It's nice to have, you know, book selling and nice to have this, but at the end of the day, you could have that and be miserable. And that, to me, is not the definition of success. So, and not to say that every day is a happiness fest. I mean, I'm also human as well, but if I can have more happy days than not and be present, like that's my main goal right now is how can I be present for this call, this interview, the next email, whatever,

actually be present and experience, then I feel like I'm doing the right work. Because if I'm not, then there's something off with, James Clear has a beautiful line in his profile that says, there's something off with the mountain that I'm climbing. His question is, am I climbing the right mountain? Because we can trick ourselves, right? We can, you know, climbing any mountain feels like work, obviously, and it is work. But if it's the wrong mountain, then it's almost wasted work.

Srini Rao

Hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah, reminds me of David Brooks' book, The Second Mountain. Well, I have one final question for you, which is how we finish all of our interviews at The Unmistakable Creative. What do you think it is that makes somebody hear something unmistakable?

Marc Champagne

Yeah, yeah.

Marc Champagne

Yeah.

Marc Champagne

Oh, it makes me think of Coco Chanel and that's being, you know, how do you.

What aura or what energy are you leaving behind when you leave a room? That's the unmistakable, and we're all different. And if we give some thought to what that is, or what we'd like to leave people on the other side, for me, like I said, is energize, and I want people to feel motivated and happy and excited. Then, you know, I'll feel good about myself. And if we can think about that and really be true.

be honest? Are we leaving people like that? Because we're leaving a vibe behind, whether we like it or not. It's just whether it's the one that we respect or the one that we want to leave behind. So I'd say that'd be the answer and it suggests people to give it some thought. Give it some thought.

Srini Rao

Amazing. Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story, your wisdom and insights with all the students. I feel like I could just sit here asking you questions all day long. Where could people find out more about you, your work, the book and everything that you're up to?

Marc Champagne

Yeah, thank you. I mean, I don't take these conversations lightly. I really appreciate the opportunity to jam. And I feel like I agree. We could speak for hours. Easiest place, one spot, one link, behindthehuman.com. That's my main website, books there, podcasts there, all the socials. And I just encourage people to shoot me a message. I'd love to know whether you pick up the book or not. I'd love to know which questions have made the biggest difference in your own life.

As you can probably suspect at this point, I collect these. So share them, tag me, and I'd love to share them with others because you never know. There's someone on the other side that literally that question could change their life. So let's help more people together.

Srini Rao

Amazing. And for every day listening, we'll wrap the show with that.