Max Stossel | Building a Humanity-Centric Digital World

Srini Rao: Max, welcome to the Unmistakable Creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Max Stossel: Thank you for having me. It

Srini Rao: is my pleasure to have you here. So I found out about your work by way of your publicist. And I heard all the accolades Forbes calls you one of the greatest storytellers of all time.

And as somebody who absolutely loves stories, I knew it was a no brainer to have you as a guest. But before we get into all of that, I wanted to start by asking you, what did your parents do for work and how did that end up shaping the choices that you've made with your own life and career? My mother is a therapist and my father is a journalist.

Max Stossel: My dad is actually a very a very well known journalist. He was the co anchor of 2020 with Barbara Walters. Wow. And he's really was, It's one of the main reasons that libertarianism is as popular as it is. It's his devotion to it. And my dad is a brilliant storyteller. He's brilliant at making things simple and cutting them down.

I got to grow up watching him edit stories and watching him say to people what does that really mean? What's going on? Huh? Come on, no, make it simpler, make it dumber, make people understand it. And he was very good at holding the integrity of a message and making it really just like common sense for people to understand.

And I think I really value that and it has shaped some of my own desire for helping really wanting people to get it. And my mom is the friend that all her friends call when they're going through something hard and I really deeply value her. Emotional awareness and emotional intelligence. And they say that I got the best of both of them, which I think is the greatest compliment.

But it's, but yeah, they've very they're both incredible communicators. And that really has been in my DNA for a long time. This is something I always ask people who are children of therapists. Do you are you immune to all the other issues that most of us go to therapy to get fixed when we grow up because you had a mother who was a therapist, or did you basically go through all the same bullshit that everybody else does?

Absolutely the same bullshit everybody else does. And the one thing my mom says, which I think is really fun and accurate is. It does it like no matter what you do, you're going to mess up your kids. It's just a matter of how therapists are not immune to that by any means.

Srini Rao: Yeah. Yeah, I remember in the TV show Parenthood, like they get to the very end.

You talk about great storytelling. That was probably one of my favorite shows of all time. And the very final episode Craig T. Nelson turns to his daughter and he's you know what? Parents screw their kids up. That's just what we do. And it seems to be part

Max Stossel: of the job. It just made me have such a greater level of empathy for the things that I thought my parents had done wrong.

Srini Rao: I was growing up and my sister just had her first child. I'm this is a tall order, like to raise a decent human being. That's not a small job we're asking them to do.

Max Stossel: Absolutely. And all in the spirit of what you shared about this podcast, I'll share a little bit.

Deeper in that, the ways that my parents messed me up most, I would say, is my dad and watching him at the dinner table over and over again, show how the thing that it felt is right, when you look at it really deeply, look how that thing didn't actually turn out to be true. Look how it feels like, often for him, government should be the ones to solve this problem, but when they try to do that, look what happens.

And I internalized that as, I can't trust my feelings. And that was very hard to overcome. And when I talked to him about that later, he was like, what? I'm talking about in government, trust your feelings in your life. But that was absolutely how I internalized it. And mom, by being an anxious person and doing a lot of things for me, was too afraid to watch me fail, to let me make my own mistakes.

And that was difficult too. But so those are some of the ways that my parents messed me up. Thanks for having me. Like your dad being a co anchor with Barbara Walters those are some like big shoes to fill like it makes me think of Trevor Noah when he started at the Daily Show and I remember thinking, God, this guy has some seriously big shoes to fill.

Srini Rao: Like how the hell is he going to follow up Jon Stewart? And then I was like thanks to the Trump presidency, Trevor Noah made a career. But did you ever have the sense that you have this like just gigantic shoes to fill with your dad being who he was? Yes, but I also, my attitude towards it has been like, I just don't even want to be in that field.

Max Stossel: Cause I have been, I'm a storyteller in some capacity, but my dad's won 19 Emmys and has been one of the most influential journalists, like maybe of all time. And he doesn't feel successful. He's like, why doesn't everybody just get it? Why aren't there more people who understand the philosophies that I am preaching and to watch someone have that level of success and not feel successful was also like a I don't even want to try to sell those shoes.

I don't want to try to walk in to walk in that path. And I felt more desire to do my own thing.

Srini Rao: I don't think that's abnormal in the world that we live in. I remember we had this psychologist, Sasha Hines, and she was telling me that if you look at the Olympic podium and you watch the expression, she said, the person who wins the gold is of course thrilled because they won the gold.

The person who won the bronze is happy to just be up on the on the podium. And she said, if you look, the silver medalist is always the one who's the most disappointed because in their mind, they didn't win a silver medal. They didn't win the gold. And she's it's just because of hedonic adaptation.

Like your goalpost keeps changing. And I wonder in your own life having already gotten to this point where you've gotten all these accolades, like, how do you find a balance between fulfillment and ambition?

I think for

Max Stossel: me, I have really shifted my own goalposts from any kind of idea of external success to really feeling deeply satisfied and fulfilled internally. I really like. I'm really seeing this special on Wednesday, actually. And it won an award at this film festival and that award felt nice.

It felt nice because I'm doing something so different that has been so like, it's hard to even get a conversation with people in the traditional streaming services about what a poetry special, what the heck is that? But then to be recognized in like a traditional way felt really good. It's Oh, look, like even you film people, even you think this is good.

Ha, it's I had some satisfaction that way, but for the most part, I find like a lot of the. award systems just to be silly and I think there's an endless treadmill of trying to chase what other people think is going to be good for us or what success means in others eyes as opposed to a felt sense of This is what my heart wants in this moment, and i'm coming to value

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Srini Rao: How do you make that shift? Because you obviously done a lot of work around attention, which we'll talk about. We live in a world where everybody's accomplishments are on public display, 24 hours a day. All you have to do is log into a social network and you can feel shit about yourself and feel shitty about yourself in a matter of seconds.

It's Oh, I published a book. This guy just sold his startup for a hundred million dollars. Great. I'm a loser.

Max Stossel: Yeah. You are never enough. That is the message on social media. That is not the message I am telling you here on this podcast. In how have I dealt with that? How did I make a transition without the question?

Yeah. I think honestly, the real truth is in falling very deeply in love with a friend's fiance. Okay. And her with me. And having that be seen so deeply as so wrong by those who I was surrounded by. And really trying with my own head to be like, yeah, of course, like this is wrong. No no, this is wrong.

And then at the very pit of that self. Evaluation to be like, this is just here. Like this just is something that is real and alive in me. And if people can't see that or understanding that, then they're not understanding me and they're not actually on my team and that experience created a lot of social shedding and a lot of social shifts, but in some ways, like I lost a whole lot of people who I thought were friends and a lot of people who I cared about at the time.

And still have care for, but just really saw through this experience how much they didn't actually care about me and in following my heart at something that I knew to be true at a foundational level, even when others were very judgmental of it, gave me the sort of the shifting point of. Wow.

At the end of the day, like I just know what's true in me and no matter how awfully this will go, I still want it. And having that awareness was a game changer that has stuck.

Srini Rao: I'd imagine that was probably incredibly disruptive to the friendship with the person whose fiance you fell in love with.

Yes. How do you navigate the pain of a friendship that falls apart like that?

Max Stossel: Oh, I don't have the answer for everybody on that one. Yeah, for me, it was. Yeah it was tremendously painful to lose a friend. It was tremendously painful to not have this woman be in my life. And how does one manage that a day at a time?

But I was tremendously lucky to have this experience also illuminate those who really did care about me and show me what true love and unconditional support and friendship look like and people who are really valuing my heart. And I got to see what, I got to see what love. What love builds and where love grows and I don't normally talk about this on podcast.

I'll leave it at that for now. Fair enough. For you growing up, what was the narrative from your parents about making your way in the world in terms of what you should do with your life, what you should do with your career? Was there anything that they pointed you towards? It was a culture of you need to do well in school, you're gonna need to be successful at something by whatever definition that is, but not much direction of you need to be a doctor or a lawyer or anything like that.

It was mostly just whatever you do, you better do it well. So what's been the trajectory that has led you to becoming a spoken word artist? Because spoken word artists, like many of the people I interview is not one of those things that you will go into your high school guidance counselor's office and tell her you want to do.

Yeah, I had no poetry background. I had no writing background, really, other than this communication family and communication history. I'd always been a good communicator. And I heard this poet named NQ perform and. He shared this poem about falling in love at 85. And my arms were buzzing, and that hadn't happened to me this way before.

And I was trying to figure out why my arms were buzzing. And I pulled out my phone notepad and started journaling, being like, what's going on here? And the first two lines of what I wrote rhymed. And I was like, yeah, maybe I can do this. And I finished that poem, and I saw him the next day.

I said, hey I wrote a poem after you shared your poem. Do you want to hear it? And he's like a very kind of cool, calm, collected guy. He's yeah, okay, whatever. And I shared the poem, and he's wow, you should consider pursuing this. And yeah I started writing these poems, and then I had some friends who had events, and they asked me to share poems at their events.

And at the end of those events, people would say can you send that poem to me? And I would write it out in an email, and I'd be about to hit send, and I'd be like, this does not feel right. I don't feel like I'm actually sending the it, the source, that thing at the center that I'm actually so passionate about giving.

This just feels like words on a page. There's something in the delivery, in the rhyme, in the rhythm. It's like a soul of the art that's getting lost. How can I help translate that soul through the screen? And that's what the work in film has been for me, is a way of. keeping the essence of the soul of the poem so that I can hand it to you through a screen and you can still have what I meant to deliver you and not just the empty box and packing pellets.

And that's... And yeah, it's become those first couple of videos I did went went viral. And that sort of told me that there was demand for this and people who are interested in it. And I started performing more, doing my own live shows. And then this special that I just created is the first like hour long story piece, nine poems, nine films all put together into one and just is a big piece of my heart.

And I'm just really grateful that it gets to be out in the world in a few days. Yeah.

Srini Rao: It's you have this moment where you feel your arms buzzing. And your instinct is to just start writing things down. And I feel like I talked to so many people who have this sort of creative impulse, something inside of them, and they deny it, they ignore it.

They don't do anything about it. And I see this even in the answers to, excuse me. The survey questions that I send out and people will send very vague goals. Like I remember thinking I saw this response that said a purpose that's meaningful and monetized. And I'm like, that's ironic because that's a meaningless purpose.

Like it doesn't mean anything. And it got me thinking about why people either are so vague. And I realized it deep down there's in my mind, something that probably is making them afraid to say what they truly want. So I actually resent the survey yesterday saying, look, I want you to tell me what you actually want.

Don't hold back here and I'm in no place to judge you. I don't care how batshit crazy I think it sounds. Tell me what you really want. So why do you think it is that people in those moments don't do anything?

Max Stossel: Like when they hear the creative call or when they hear that buzz, they ignore it. I

think in some ways to truly express ourselves as the scariest thing. I don't think, I think if I had consciously known that's what the path was, I don't know that I would have jumped at it the same way. But like the, there's a depth of a vulnerability. And when the expression is from the center, when the expression is, It's just here's something that feels so true to me and matters to me so much will you hold it?

Can you see this? And can you love me? And I think that's a really scary act. I was also, I was so excited by it because I more had a childlike wonder sense of, Oh my God, look what's happening. Look at these, this voice that is flowing through me. Doesn't feel like me. Look at this thing. It's so beautiful.

I want to share it with you. And I

,

have held on to the admiration just of the beauty and wanting people to have this thing that doesn't feel like me but feel so beautiful and I feel so connected to the universe through it. And so to me, it just, it feels like no choice but to follow that.

But why do people not? I think because it is a little scary. It is a little bit crazy to listen to the voice that is talking to you in some ways, by definition, or to honor these invisible magical experiences is actually. real and important. I think that takes a level of courage that I definitely want to encourage everybody to listen to because it's, it does visit everyone.

It is available to everyone. And for me, it's been some of the most meaningful moments and experiences of my life to listen to that creative voice that when it's coming through, and even if it's talking in weird ways or making me do weird things, it feels very worth it to me.

Srini Rao: What were you doing for work at the time?

Max Stossel: I was. I think at that point I was working at a small social media company called Ocho. We were trying to be the Instagram for videos before Instagram had video. And yeah, I was working for them at the time, designing notifications to take people out of their world and bring them into mine which was how I got started in the Center for Humane Technology and then Social Awakening side of the work that I do.

But I was a new act designer for an app. I,

Srini Rao: there's a reason I asked that because we're talking about this sort of inner voice that we have creatively. And I feel like so often it is drowned out by the noise of the world around us. And I wanted to get into some of the things that you talk about in your Ted Talk advertising is destroying everything.

And one of the things that you say is the problem is that we've gotten so good at it as we've carried around these devices in our pockets. And we've gotten so good at perfect perfecting tactics to steal and hold as much of your time as possible, that it's starting to be a threat to our new system. And I think that.

What strikes me as so fascinating about this idea of fake news is people know it's a problem. And I only know this with my brother in law is working on a startup to combat fake news. And I we, we keep having these conversations. I was like, it's not that any of us don't know that this is a problem.

It's just that the pain of it and the consequences of it don't affect us directly day to day. So we don't feel the pain of it as much as say something like, Oh, I need a distraction blocker to block distractions. Talk to me about the actual implications of this for a society at large when we have this kind of an ecosystem in technology that is trying to steal as much of our attention as possible.

What is the longterm consequence of that?

Max Stossel: So there's so many sections of it. One of them that I deal with most directly is just the mental health challenges. And we're seeing, especially among teenagers and especially among teenage girls, just skyrocketing depression, anxiety, self harm, and suicide.

And the only explanation that really makes any sense in social media. And so just like the self comparison, but why doesn't my body look like that? Why is everyone else's life better than mine? Why aren't my accomplishments good enough? You couldn't design a better self comparison machine than the social media platforms.

If you wanted to design a system to make people feel inadequate, could you build a better one than the social media platforms? I don't think so. But then on a news perspective. Zeynep Tufekci is a misinformation researcher who articulates this really well. Talks about how in the 2016 elections, she was, she would watch a couple of Donald Trump videos on YouTube, and then she would start to be recommended more and more extreme videos and eventually like Klu Klux Klan type of content.

She'd watch some Bernie videos, she'd be pushed towards more and more extreme socialism and then the conspiracy left of chemtrails and all that stuff. But then it wasn't just politics, you would watch a vegetarian video, and then she'd be pushed towards veganism and how you shouldn't eat any honey products, because those are from bees.

You'd watch a dieting video, it would push you towards anorexia content, like pro anorexia content. It's like you're never hardcore enough for YouTube. And in the nature of trying to grab and hold as much attention as possible, our news, these algorithms, our news ecosystem understands what are the ideas that you are likely to believe, and then naturally tends to push you towards more and more extreme versions of those ideas.

And so what does the world look like when two billion people are pushed towards the most extreme versions of whatever they're most likely to believe when everybody is certain the world is crumbling exactly in the way that they knew it would, and every new news event is evidence of how, look how evil those other people are and how good my people are, how right I am.

What does that world look like? I think we're living inside of it, and I think it's done a number on politics, it's done a number on even familial relationships, and I think our news ecosystem is an absolute mess.

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Yeah. There's one quote in particular that struck me in that talk. You said by the time any sort of correction is issued, by the time people get any sort of right information, it's too late, even if it does reach them in the first place. And the reason that struck me so much is recently there's been a story spreading and I don't know if you've seen it, chances are you have because it's spreading like wildfire about this Indian doctor who drove a Tesla off a cliff.

And basically CHP is saying evidence shows that this is an, had been an intentional act that I just was Googling the other day. Cause I wanted to see what people were saying on Facebook. Cause in my mind, I was like, the story doesn't add up. Nothing about this guy like screams, Hey, this is the kind of guy who's going to drive his family off a cliff.

The way that his neighbors have talked about them, the way that everybody has talked about them. And yet when I saw the comments on that links, people had shared about the story. Every one of these are like, Oh, send this guy to prison. I hope he burns in hell. And I'm thinking to myself, yeah, but he has supposedly going to be arrested, but nobody's talked to either his wife or the children to find out if this was in fact an intentional act, like it's just spreading like wildfire that this was an intentional act.

And so that now has become the dominant version of truth. In people's minds. And even the hospital he works at said we're not going to comment on this because it's a developing story, which was probably the most responsible thing, but it's amazing. Like even the most reputable news outlets have covered this story.

And so I thought that was a perfect sort of example of something that you're talking about, because like I said, in my mind, I just, I can't shake the fact that this story doesn't add up. Like it just doesn't the pattern of history of this guy. doesn't scream, hey, this is a guy who's going to drive his family off a cliff.

But again, I don't know anything other than what I've read. But it just doesn't make any sense to me. Like I'm like, yet I see what is happening. And I'm thinking this poor guy, if he's actually proven innocent, like the damage that's been done already.

Max Stossel: Yeah, I'm not familiar with the story itself, but certainly the concept of the 24 hour news cycle being so hungry for attention that it will take whatever the initial story or photo is and run with it.

That's just not how actual factual information distribution works. It takes time to sort through what really happened or went on. That's definitely been an influence of dad who would go on these tours of are we scaring ourselves to death talking about how the media would pick on every single scary thing and how butane lighters are exploding in our pockets and killing eight people a year while not considering how many people die in cars or just like the actual, the things that we actually ought to be afraid of compared to the scary, jumpy headline.

And it's, a lot of these things have existed for generations beyond just social media, but social media has poured gas on all of the fires and gas on our gladiatorial instincts of, yeah, what a monster, I want to show how bad he is, or just people using whatever did occur as evidence for whatever they already wanted to believe.

If it was a Tesla, I'm sure there are people who are saying, Elon Musk programmed it to go off the cliff on purpose because Elon Musk is a monster. It's not true. Just like people will take whatever happened and spin it towards whatever their agenda already was.

Srini Rao: So how then do we solve this problem or is there a solution?

Because you say, what if instead of maximizing the amount of time spent on these sites, what if we maximize things that really matter? What if imagine a world that doesn't compete for your attention? But instead competes to help you thrive, like, how do you build that world? And what role does storytelling and words that move actually play in all of that?

Max Stossel: Yeah I think we first have to envision that future and storytelling is a key part of that, painting the picture of what could a beautiful world look like. And an example is like, how wonderful would it be if a social network was using all of its data, that were tremendous amounts of data, it has these tremendously powerful algorithms to help actually optimize our social lives.

Have I. Help to illuminate. Have I helped to illuminate new opportunities or experiences you wouldn't have otherwise realized are possible and that you later rate as meaningful and I help connect you with new people that you later said, like that you're really happy are now in your life, if it's news and information, did I, in a measurable way, make you more educated about a subject or did I just do the thing that grabbed the most attention and all of these instances, if we start to measure it in life outcomes, if we turn the app store into the help center of what what.

Apps or activities or things in the real world helped me most thrive with creativity, with being bold in my life, with helping put food on the table for my family. If like our digital world was sorted that way around, what are the things that actually help us thrive? That's the world I very much want to live in and like those are social networks I would very much pay for and pay for other people who couldn't afford to have.

I have no interest in paying for Twitter blue or paying for Facebook as it is now. But if there was a network that was actually using its data to help be on my team and help me live the way that I want to live. What I, the best personal assistant of all time, what an incredible possibility. And I would love to live in that tech world.

Srini Rao: I think that there's this whole idea of free and I think this better than anybody, right? If you're getting something free you're not using a product. You are the product is the saying, right? Now, given that these tech giants, like the ones you've talked about, Twitter Facebook, whatever, are like just massively profitable.

How do you start to create a conversation around what you're talking about and the world that you're talking about that also investors say, yeah, okay, you know what this is not going to be the a hundred X return that basically retires the entire value of a funder is becomes the next uniform.

Like, how do you create that? both sustainably

Max Stossel: and profitably. I do, so I used to think that Apple is going to come to the rescue and because their money isn't made as much on advertising and they only make 10 percent or something on ads and the rest is on hardware that they can establish these systems.

I've come to find there's so much inertia in these big companies that it's very hard to change the direction they're headed meaningfully. So I think it needs to be the next generation and part of that and part of the role of storytelling and videos like the ones I've made Can we create new demands?

Can we as consumers demand something that is actually caring about us? And is that where we want to put our dollars, where we want to put our attention? Because it certainly starts with, it starts with us. And I think we need help from all parties involved, but. We can as consumers say, yeah, I just, I don't want the thing that just I'm keeping on upgrading every day for the new, better camera or bigger screen or whatever it is.

No, an upgrade in technology is something that is actually considering my life and helping me live it meaningfully. That just feels like a better world and it is one that we can demand. And if there's a market for it, if people do want that, I think there's money to be made. Yeah. It might not be the a hundred X unicorn valuation that.

People can milk off of these advertising platforms. But just because cigarettes and slot machines are not the only businesses in the world it makes me think about the media in general and monetizing media because we have ads on the show and we have an ad free option.

Srini Rao: And one of the more difficult choices that I have made often is that I basically said, I will never. Compromise the editorial quality of what we do and the guests that we choose in service of metrics. And that comes at a cost sometimes. It means, Oh. I'm not going to say yes to this like wildly popular guest who might lead to a ton of downloads and more ad revenue.

But I'll choose one that I think will share something of tremendous value who may not be the most popular person in the world or share us with a million followers and yet we're also investor funded. And that's one thing I've tried to emphasize is okay yes, everything you listen to is free, but somebody is always subsidizing it.

Somebody is always paying for this. And in this case, it's okay, fine. You don't want to support. A podcast by subscribing and listening to an ad free. Then, you know what, the advertisers basically subsidize your ability to consume this thing for free. And I don't think people quite get that even when we read different news outlets.

Cause I remember just coming across a thing on the guardian yesterday, like their little donate to us thing that says we don't have a billionaire owner who influences our editorial policy or something along those lines.

Max Stossel: Yeah I think it's wonderful that you approach it that way as well.

It takes that's the type of integrity that is very necessary in this ecosystem of, what do I actually care about? What do I actually want to put out in the world? Because also, it's never been easier to fall into the, ooh, this is the shiny object who will get me the more likes or clicks or listens or downloads or shares or whatever it is.

Like we this is the new version of selling out in a way. And it takes people actually remind me, it's like reminding ourselves, why am I

,

doing what I'm doing? What do I actually want to do? Is this actually a person that I want to talk to? Is this actually a message that I want to put out into the world?

And letting that be our compass. It's teaching this to kids is really tough because imagine being in high school and middle school where how important it feels to be popular. And then having every action, every word you say be accustomed be accustomed, be exposed to these same forces.

It's just like a really tricky time to make sure that you're actually living your own life and not be driven by these external reward systems that are very addictive. And so I guess I'm glad to hear that you're using discernment about who and what you put on. I'm honored to be a part of

Srini Rao: it.

You saying that about high school reminds me of the TV show 13 reasons why they, I remember at the end of the show, they did an outtake with all the cast members and they were talking about cyberbullying because I don't know how old you are, I'm 44, gonna be 45. And so I didn't grow up with all this stuff, but the thing that struck me most was I said one of the things that people don't realize, particularly like people in an older generation who think, oh, these kids are just being wimps when it comes to cyberbullying is that when you're that young for the developing brain, something like just being trolled on Facebook, Has a sense of permanence to it that you don't quite understand when you're that age.

And so I guess in my mind, it's okay how do you go about fixing that? And really one, not just education, cause I don't think any one of us listening to this is unaware of a lot of the things that you're saying yet somehow, despite the fact that we're all aware of this.

How many of us, after listening to this, might just go on Instagram and check pictures or scroll through Facebook to see what somebody else has posted? Probably half the

Max Stossel: people listening. Sure. And, yeah, for kids, I think one of the big things that we can do is just create more environments where that is not the norm.

In a lot of schools right now, just cell phones are just like out and allowed in schools. I think giving more of the opportunity where here is an eight hour period where kids can learn, focus, patience, how to be without their devices, the social skills of like just how to deal with boredom, how to walk up to somebody and start a conversation.

These are, it's never been easier to run away from ourselves. And so I think one of the best things we can do is create more life that doesn't revolve around this thing for kids to experience. So they at least have a comparison point. I also I think you're being generous with, of saying the adults who don't understand what that feels like, because also it's the adults are acting like children on these platforms of, as soon as they see the one negative comment, they can't get it out of their head.

There's that meme of can't come to sleep, honey. There's someone on the internet who's wrong. And it's just, it's, yeah, adults are acting like kids in this too, and very susceptible, like our inner child is very susceptible to these forces, and it's just even harder to resist when it's been your whole world.

Srini Rao: I don't know if you saw it New York Times had an article about teenage Luddites recently that Calvin Horton referenced on his blog, and I remember that girl basically actually criticized her parents and said they're addicted to their phones. Totally. Which really struck me, I was like, oh wait, she's a teenager who's actually telling her parents to get the hell off their phones.

I was like, whoa. Cal Newport said this is a very good sign that teenagers are actually starting to think like this. I hope we're

Max Stossel: starting to see a shift. I gave a talk once where a parent told a story of how they have the no phones at the table policy. And when their grandma came over, she took out her phone and their six year old was like, Grandma, there are no phones at our table.

Nice. And the kids, they do recognize that when everybody is off of these things, just there is a different social feeling. Yeah it's funny because my sister just had a baby and like I take pictures of him and I've noticed something really fascinating about my interactions with him.

Srini Rao: If you are behind a screen, that kid will not smile. And so we just, we put a tripod in the background and we're like, all right, the key to like getting great pictures. This kid is not to actually make him aware of the camera, but to basically engage him. And it's really fascinating to watch where.

When he sees the camera, he stops engaging completely. But if he sees our faces, he turns into a completely different kid. And I'm like, wow, this is a three month old. Who's aware of this.

Max Stossel: Can learn from the kids yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about this idea of words that move, because one thing I was thinking about when you were talking about your dad talking about simplifying things and making it digestible is this book, Smart Brevity, that was written by the founders of Axios.

Srini Rao: And I remember talking to my brother in law about this, and he actually had a really interesting counter argument about spark brevity. He said, in a lot of ways, it's basically saying, yeah, we've given up our attention span is too short for anything. He's it's basically just admitting we have no more capacity for depth.

And that's the way that media is created in order to basically cater to our short attention spans rather than saying, Hey, maybe we should work on improving our attention span so we can consume something of depth. And given that your domain name is words that move, I want to talk about like, how do we one use words, keep things simple, but also maintain that capacity for depth, because I feel like long form content is.

One of those things where it's really difficult to get people to consume something long form. If you read a 18, 000 word blog post, which I've occasionally done, I'm amazed. at how difficult it is for people to actually sit and read the entire thing.

Max Stossel: And yeah, I don't think it's black and white, but I do.

I love the Abraham Lincoln quote of, I'm sorry, I wrote such a long speech. I didn't have time to write a shorter one. Yeah. And there is a layer at which like, There is a beauty in brevity and simplicity and like we have a mastery of something if we can really take the concept of it and make it simple and teach it to a child and make it so understandable that way.

I think most of our media ecosystem is not operating that way as much as just here's a couple of things and here's a, it's not mastery showing our short piece of art. It's. Let me just churn out a million things, and I think those are very different in their philosophy and in their output. But I think there's absolute beauty in in making a complex idea simple, like that feels very special when it's done, when it's done well, and not to diminish all that can be learned, of course, if we dive in more depth, there's always more to learn.

And for me words are the vehicle. Like I have, words happen to be my tool, where I'm trying to deliver you this piece of soul. And I, for whatever reason, that happens to me through words, specific rhymes and rhythms. And I'm very grateful for that. But to me, it can, people will have different vehicles.

This happens to be mine and what works for me. Yeah. Let's just take something, for example, like writing, because we were talking about that. If you were to talk about this tactically, like, how do you get to the point of simplifying complex ideas in a way that they become digestible.

Srini Rao: Cause I remember I was talking to Dan Pink about this and I said my favorite thing about Dan Pink's books is that they're so easy to read. I was like, you take concepts that are incredibly deep, incredibly rich. And he was telling me, he said that he was so happy to hear that. Cause he said the amount of time he puts into that is really such a big part of his writing process.

He said. He would, might do two months of research and read 10 different white papers. And he said, you know what, that might lead to two sentences. And he's and I don't think that I should subject my readers to that hell just because I put in that time and. I was like, that sounds really nice, and it sounds really hard to do.

Max Stossel: I think there's a skill in when you're in, like, when you have your own editor's cap on, like when you're, whether it's when you're creating or when you're ideating or when you're reviewing and editing, to be able to look over it and just as a bored with not so much time reader, it's like reading your own work quickly, being like, did I get this?

Did I just have the reaction to my writing? Huh? What does that mean? What's going on but just like put on the uninterested board person's hat as you're looking at your own work or thinking about what you're actually creating to have the humility to also say of all of the things that are being put out in the world are like, Are people going to care about this?

Is this what I want to put forward? Is this do I expect another person to actually want to receive this or want to spend their time on that? And I think if we're having that level of skepticism of our of ourselves and It's also, of course, a balance with self expression. It doesn't mean stop creating, but I think that dance of reading our own work was like, is anyone going to care what's going on here?

Am I really saying it? Can I get to that point faster? I think that's, it's a nice, it's a nice dance that I think we figure out as we go through our

Srini Rao: creative process. Yeah. I like the way that Dan Pink summarized it. He said basically every word that is on the page has to fight for its life to

Max Stossel: be there.

He's good, that Dan Pink.

Srini Rao: Yeah, he really is. I want to get back to the idea of this idea of creating a more humane tech ecosystem. And you say that we can get that off the table as the metrics that matter most. When you start basing things on humanity, we can change from time spent to time well spent architects of our digital world.

You have more data information and control over your attention, the tools to tweak our emotions. We'll return your experience. The question then is if we can't expect. The tech companies to do this, because obviously it's not in their best interest because it's not profitable.

Individually, what are the things that people could be doing in order to actually take control over their lives, particularly when it comes to. Either just being addicted to or imprisoned by so many of these digital tools that go beyond the standard block distractions, leave your phone at the bathroom, all the stuff that we know.

Max Stossel: And yeah, there are, of course, the little things like turning off any notification that's not from a human being trying to reach you, like happy holidays from Tinder, this person does like your photo, all of those things. One thing people really like is also just like buying a physical alarm clock.

So the first thoughts of your day are actually your own, you're not waking up and then immediately in all these truncated little pieces of messages and notifications and feeling behind. But I think the deeper act really becomes about like, how are we designing our lives? A combination of self awareness and like therapy type practices of getting to know ourselves.

Because the better we get to know ourselves, the more resistant we can be to all of these outside manipulators and persuasions. But learning our own practices of mindfulness, of self awareness, and then designing our lives. If we're not being intentional about how we're spending our time, how we're crafting our social lives, what type of information we want to take in, then these algorithms are going to do it for us and they're not going to do it in a way that anybody will be happy with.

So of course, there's things you can do on the device and. They're deleting apps. And one simple one is everyone listening to this podcast. There's one app on your phone. You know what it is. It's different for each of you, but there's one app. You're like, yeah, this is not good for me. Why am I spending so much time on this thing?

Just delete it and still keep the app. You can do that. You're in charge of your life. You can delete the app. But I think also just. Addiction is often pain management, and we're avoiding a moment of boredom, a moment of loneliness, other feelings that are hard to feel. And I think working through those processes and designing our lives in ways that that address that, I think are where we see more long term solutions and long term joy.

Srini Rao: Are we... Are we like past the point of no return in terms of fixing these things or is there hope given that we're seeing Facebook basically seeming to have this mass exodus almost the first time in years they saw a drop in user minutes, meta seems to be like just in utter chaos right now it's almost like the consequences of their actions are finally catching up to them and then again I think that if you're Mark Zuckerberg in a dorm room when you're in college, you probably never think, oh, The thing I'm building is going to disrupt elections someday.

Max Stossel: Sure. And I think something like what we see today is going to keep existing. Social media is not going anywhere. We need to change the way that we're relating. To it, I do think in some ways we're in like an era of unchecked cigarettes and people aren't as aware of the damages and haven't taken steps to mitigate them, but it's more complicated than just a simple vice, right?

Because it's more like if I one thing, if I love ice cream, it's another thing if ice cream is being, if I carry around ice cream 24 hours a day, seven days a week, if I actually have to go inside of a tub of ice cream to talk to my friends and to do my work, and if ice cream is being updated every day to be more personally delicious for me.

Pretty tough to just put down the ice cream. And so I think it's this deeply ingrained in our lives thing that is also quite addictive and challenging. And what does it look like to navigate that differently? I think will be an ongoing challenge that we're dealing with for years and years to come.

I don't think what exists now is going anywhere, but I do hope there will be new iterations that are significantly better. And I imagine we probably will start to see regulations and all sorts of stuff coming in and whether that's helpful or not is to be seen. But I bet we'll see some stuff happen.

Srini Rao: That was literally my next question is what are the responsibilities here of politicians to create regulations and dealing with the regulatory environment of this? Because like from what I've gathered just from many of the books I've read is that it's the wild west when it comes to regulatory environment about all this, like nobody seems to know what the hell they're doing.

Max Stossel: Yeah, that seems to be the case. And I honestly, I'm not so knowledgeable on the legislation side of things. I also, in general, my theories of change are much less like we're going to change one thing that's going to fix everything and much more. I think it comes from awareness and it comes from education and people changing personal habits.

And so my focus is much more there than on legislation, but hearing things like raising the age of what the legal limit should technically be on. Some of these apps or platforms that make sense to me, but I'm not an expert on the legislation side of things. This has been really fascinating.

Srini Rao: I feel like we could talk for hours about all of this stuff. But in the interest of time, I want to finish my final question. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Max Stossel: I think what makes somebody or something unmistakable is when they're deeply in touch and expressive of like their center. Just what is super real for them. To me, there's nothing more engaging and engrossing than people being fully and unapologetically themselves. And I think when people do that, it's just magnetic and it's beautiful and it's unmistakable.

Srini Rao: Amazing. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story, your wisdom and your insights with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you, your work and everything that you're up to?

Max Stossel: Yeah WordsThatMove. com I'm, yeah, in two days releasing the special.

Go watch it. I love it. I worked so hard to bring it to you. It's free and I just want you to have it for it to feed your soul. Go watch that for sure. And then SocialAwakening. org is the organization I created to help kids deal with the chaos of social media in their lives. And I'm at Max Dossal on all the things.

Srini Rao: Amazing. And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.