Michael Bungay Stanier | How to Unlock Your Greatness By Working on Hard Things

Srini Rao

Michael, welcome back to the unmistakable creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah, exactly.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Definitely. Perfect, me too.

Michael Bungay Stanier

I am flattered to be back. Thank you for having me. It's nice to talk to you again.

Srini Rao

It is always a pleasure to talk to you. I enjoy our conversation so much. I mean, you were like one of the handful of people that was a guest before we were even called the unmistakable creatives. So we go way back. Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

That's right. I feel we go way back. I mean like Enso it's been fun watching your journey as stuff has evolved and you've written books and you've kind of the podcast has blown up. It's been very cool to kind of cheer you on from the sidelines.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, I was thinking about how to start a conversation by asking a question that I hadn't asked you before. And then I got to the end of the book. I got to the end of your book and I realized that I knew where I wanted to start. What is the most important thing that you ever learned from your father that has influenced and shaped who you've become and what you've done with your life?

Michael Bungay Stanier

Hahaha

Michael Bungay Stanier

Right.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Thank you for asking that you know the book ends with me writing an homage to my dad who died while I was writing the book and We're recording it basically a year since he died so he's been on my mind in the last few days um I You know I the thing that I admire about my dad many things I admire about my dad But I know that when he was facing death

He was utterly content about the life that he'd led. He said, you know, he'd clearly just gone, I figured out what's important to me, and I've spent time doing those things. And in a quiet, unassuming way, he just found contentment and joy and contribution in all that he did. So I'm not quite wired like my dad, like my dad was on committees his whole life, and for me, a committee is slow death. I mean, I hate committees.

Srini Rao

Yeah, me too.

Michael Bungay Stanier

But what I love about him is he was absolutely a man of service. He's like, I'm serving my community, I'm serving the people around me, I'm bringing the best I have to help other people. And I hope that, and I think it does, that light shines on the way I live my life as well, which is like I try and be a person of service, to try and teach or contribute or help other people out. And I think that's...

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

one of the deeper rhythms that he's installed in me.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, you know, I've talked to a handful of people who have lost parents. And I think in my life, somebody asked me once, what's the thing I'm most afraid of. And I said, you know what? I haven't gotten married and I haven't had kids. I'm afraid that one or both of my parents will pass before that happens. And I've never feared any that literally is probably my greatest fear. And, you know, I feel like this is one of those experiences where there are no books.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Mm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Right.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Mmm.

Srini Rao

no matter how many books you read, I mean, no matter how many damn interviews I've done, I don't think anything is going to prepare me for that experience. And so I wonder how you navigate the birth of a book coexisting with the death of your father simultaneously and manage that grief.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Oh, that's an interesting question. You know, what's interesting about my dad dying is that I don't feel a lot of grief around it. And I don't feel that in part for circumstance, because I've lived away from Australia for 30 years. So that kind of physical closeness just hasn't been there for 30 years since I since I moved. But, but more than that,

two things that were really helpful. One is this sense of being of him having had a good life and also not being afraid of death. And also I just I was in Australia for the three or four months leading up to his death. I was living with mum and dad helping them move through that transition. And it actually meant that I was able to talk to him. He was able to talk to me. I was able to talk to mum and dad to help them kind of make sure that

dad's impending death didn't damage the memories of that relationship because they'd been a very great couple for 55 years or thereabouts. And that last chapter that you read in the book, which is my best way of trying to say to my dad how much he means to me, he got to read that. Like I typed that out and we sat together and he cried and I cried and mum cried as we read that. So

Srini Rao

No.

Michael Bungay Stanier

I just had an incredible piece of luck or privilege where I was like I got to be very complete with my dad around his death and that really means that I feel sadness that he has died and that he's no longer alive and part of my life like that. But I don't feel grief in that kind of dismembering or a sense of incompleteness. So yeah, I really got lucky there, Shuny.

Srini Rao

Mm.

Yeah, you know, it's funny because literally you kind of teed up the question that I was going to ask next, which was this idea of sort of completing, you know, what it is that you have left to say to each other. Because I feel like there's so many of us who have these things that we've always wanted to tell our parents that we never have, whether they're hard to say to them, things that upset us, things that disappoint us, or things that mean the world to us about them. Because my dad just turned 70.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Mmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah.

Srini Rao

three weeks ago and there's a video of this on Instagram and people are like, your dad is 70. He looks younger than you do. I was like, yeah, the man is a fucking genetic anomaly. I'm like, yeah, but my friend Gareth says your dad is like the Indian Benjamin Button. Like he literally ages in reverse. He just stopped aging at a certain point. It's really bizarre. And it's funny because he summed up a thousand self-help books in four simple sentences. He was like, have one glass of wine every day, no more. He was like, try not to have any stress. Don't mix stress from work and home.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Right. Yeah, yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

That's funny. Yeah.

Srini Rao

and a happy wife equals a happy life. I was like, damn. And here I have thousand interviews, a thousand interviews and the, you know, thing I needed most was literally right there, but sometimes it's the messenger, you know?

Michael Bungay Stanier

Hmm. Right. Right, there we go.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Well, that's totally right. Plus, if all your guests just had four sentences of wisdom and that was it, then you really wouldn't have the podcast worth listening to. So you know, there's some upside to the fact that we're not all as eloquent as your dad. You know, it's interesting, isn't it? The the book I'm trying to write at the moment is a book about relationships and kind of seeded in part by, you know, what I've just been through with my mum and my dad and

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

We don't, we often don't actively manage our relationships. We kind of get them into a decent place and we're like, this is pretty good. Let's hope it carries on. And hope that it doesn't have some sort of disaster that rips the fabric of it. And hope that we have some really great moments as well. And that conversation, which is about, let's have a conversation about our relationship rather than let's have a conversation about all the stuff that's going on that is in the context of our relationship.

is a rare one but um

Michael Bungay Stanier

I've certainly just gone, look, I have my battle scars with my parents as well, but mostly I want my parents to know that I'm grateful for what they've done and what they've given and what they've shown me. So I'm not actually a natural, it's kind of like touchy feely tell everything, you know, I come from a family of British people. So we're all kind of slight. We're all, yeah.

Srini Rao

I'm Indian, I can relate.

Michael Bungay Stanier

We're all slightly uptight and we're like, you know, we do sarcasm, we don't do affection. But trying to have these conversations with my mum and dad and just kind of going, this is what you mean to me, has been has been awkward as hell and delightful. Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Oh, I'm sure it would be for me too. Yeah, I'm sure my dad would probably be like, just make sure you get my coffin at Costco. That's literally what he would tell me. Yeah. Yeah, that's so interesting. Well, let's do this. I mean, you know, it's funny, because like I said, anytime I talk to you, I could talk to you for hours on end. As you pointed out, all I have to do is just ask a question and I can keep you going. But.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yes, right, right. There we go. You're like, I can do that as well, Dad.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Right, right.

Srini Rao

Let's get into this book. Like what is it that prompted this as sort of your next natural follow-up to the coaching habit?

Michael Bungay Stanier

Mmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah, well, you know, so I wrote The Coaching Habit in 2016, and that went on to be this kind of gangbusters success to my surprise and delight. Four years later, I wrote a book called The Advice Trap, which was meant to be a deeper dive into why it was hard, why it was actually still hard to stay curious. Cause The Coaching Habit is, here are seven good questions. If you can stay curious a little bit longer, you win, they win, everybody wins. It's how you be more coach-like. The Advice Trap is,

Srini Rao

Mmm

Michael Bungay Stanier

It's hard isn't it? Even if you have seven good questions it's still hard to stay curious, particularly in some moments where you have a relationship where you're like you may be trying to help. Turns out most of us are advice-giving maniacs.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Oh, trust me, that's the that's a whole other conversation. We'll have to get into that.

Michael Bungay Stanier

That's exactly. So this next book I'm like you know I am still trying to find a way of articulating what it takes to change behavior because you know so much of the work and the conversations you and I have in general and broadly with the people we talk to comes down to look to live a better life you have to shift your behavior in some way. So it's like that's really hard it is really hard. We are creatures of habit.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

we like to stay the way we are so to actively change your behaviour what does that take? And I'm like you know if I can do what I try and do as a writer is I try and make complicated things feel more practical and accessible and everyday for people so I'm like maybe I could take a crack at that. So I wrote a first draft of a book and I showed it to a few people and there was a unilateral agreement that this is a terrible book. It wasn't even a book it was just a very

a very disappointing, confusing, rambling collection of random words. I was like, okay, that was harsh but probably fair. And when I kind of picked my way through the rubble of this first draft, there was one phrase that stood out for me and felt useful and true, which was, we unlock our greatness by working on the hard things. And I'm like, you know, I'm trying to, I'm trying to figure out what it takes to unlock greatness, that, you know, the best versions of

And if it's true that hard things, the right hard things, unlock greatness, how do you find the right hard things for you? You know, what's the thing? And so I suddenly went, maybe I'm writing a book about goal setting. I'm like, do I want to do that? I don't think I do. I hate goal setting and I hate smart goals. I've never used smart goals. I mean, I parrot the words, but I don't ever really use smart goals. So I was like, okay, so

goal setting, but it has to be more than a kind of banal summary of goal setting. And so I thought about this idea of setting a worthy goal, something that was thrilling and important and daunting, thrilling. It lights you up, important. It gives more to the world than it takes and daunting. It invites you to go to the edge of your own confidence and your own competence. And I figured if I mean, you know, this really is a

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

As a creative and thinking about productivity and unlocking creativity There's so much you can be doing How do you make the choice about the big thing to commit to like it? You know, if I'm looking at you, I'm like are you is it a book? Is it a podcast? Is it a business? Is it a community? What's the worthy goal? That's the big thing that might pull some of those things together or make you choose one over the others How do you actually say this feels like a thing that's worth committing to?

Srini Rao

down

Srini Rao

You know, it's funny you say that because I remember when I worked with my mentor, Greg, the first probably month we worked together, he said, Okay, I want you to write down a list of all the things you're doing right now to make money. And then he's like, and how many of these do you want to be doing five years from now? And I was like, the podcast and writing and he was like, then stop doing all the other ones right now because I'm gonna have to work my ass off to do to, you know, work to rechange your identity because you're so identified with all that crap.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Right.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Right.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Well that's right and it's actually one of the hardest things. It's one thing to actually articulate the worthy goal like podcast and writing just like you were doing. But then there becomes a moment where you're like, well are you up for it? Are you willing to pay the price that choice implies? You know if you're saying yes to this and you're really saying yes to it not I'm enthusiastic about it because yeah we get that. If you're really saying there's a commitment to this.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

You then got to say, what am I going to say no to? And you're saying no to current expectations of yourself and current expectations other people have of you and ways relationships work and ways you feel your time and ways you spend your money. You're saying no to a bunch of stuff that are entangled with your sense of identity right here and right now. So it is a uncomfortable and disruptive experience when you say yes to something that feels like a worthy goal.

Srini Rao

Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, you know, I want to talk about this in the context of prescriptive advice and the advice trap, because you're like, I had been talking to a few friends and I just started the first idea I had a book for was not another damn self-help book because like I finally came to this realization that I was like, man, if I actually could implement all the advice I've ever gotten from every person I've interviewed, I'd be a billionaire with six pack abs and a harem of supermodels and I am none of those things. And

Michael Bungay Stanier

Mmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah, well I'm all of those things because I've actually implemented all of that advice. So you're right, if you implement the advice, you too can be like me.

Srini Rao

Oh, well, hey, you know, I mean, it's like, okay, I've spoken to Justine Musk, am I ever going to be on the level of Elon? Fuck no. But it really got me thinking and you know, what started out as not another damn self help book, you know, and I was like, that's not it. And the funny thing is, I went back and I remember

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Like you there was one phrase that I said over and over and over in every interview I ever did about unmistakable the first book I wrote I said we could have just as easily called this book everybody is full Of shit because that's what I said. I just said it in a more diplomatic way and My friend was like well, why don't you and I was like write that as a book and I was like Yeah, I would have to have that and so I said I will write a book titled everybody is full of shit including me

Michael Bungay Stanier

Right, right.

Srini Rao

because context matters when it comes to prescriptive advice. And that was really the I think that's the big thing that I finally realize is that we treat even advice from a book like yours, right? Somebody will look at this and say, oh, OK, I'm going to plug my worthy goal into this framework that Michael has created, and I'm going to be on the other side of the threshold. But that's not how it's going to work. You and I both know that. So let's get into.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yes.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Indeed, indeed.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Right. Right, right.

Srini Rao

that and look at this through that context with the idea in mind that everybody is full of shit including me and you and everybody else that we talk to.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Well, you know, I don't have a problem with advice. Like advice is one of the core currencies of civilization. It's why there are books. It's why you and I write books. It's why you and I host and guest on podcasts. It is, I've got stuff. Let me teach you, let me show you, let me express it. And maybe that's helpful for you. So the problem isn't advice. The problem is when advice giving is your default response.

When we're having a conversation on a podcast like this, it would be really annoying if I didn't have some actual content to offer up. You're like, Michael, stop asking questions back to my questions. Give me something here. Because it's context, which is like, this is actually about an exchange of information. This is a chance for me to go, look, I've got an opinion on some stuff. Let me tell you what my opinion is. But what...

Srini Rao

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Michael Bungay Stanier

often happens in day-to-day life outside the context of a book or a podcast or whatever is like you know, you come up to me and you go, how am I called? God, you know, this thing, I've got this thing going on with my team at the moment, blah, blah. And because I have a team and because I run a small business like you and because I'm an author and because I'm a podcast host, because I because I'm like, oh, this is amazing. I know exactly what you should be doing here. So stop talking. I get it. Stop talking. Let me just give you what I've

I've just read this thing, or I've just heard about this thing, or have you tried this, or have you thought of that? But here's the thing, even though you and I have known each other for decades now, I don't know you, and I don't know your business, and I don't know the person involved, and I don't know the context, and I don't know the culture, and I don't know the minutiae, and I don't know what was there before, I don't know what you're dreaming afterwards. I have so little idea of the context, and I don't even really know what the real problem is.

Because the first problem is never the real problem, it's just the place you start. So I haven't even gone, but you know, for Trini, what's the real challenge here for you in this? And if we get to a place where I'm like, you go, ah Michael, here it is, here's the real challenge in all of this for me. There's another moment where I'm like, oh maybe I should give him advice now, because we found the real challenge, that's exciting. But if I go, look, my goal, and this is how I define being coach-like.

Can you stay curious a little bit longer? Can you rush to action and advice giving a little bit more slowly? So I go, this is exciting, we found the real problem. What are your ideas? What are your thoughts around how you might tackle that? And you'll have ideas and you'll have thoughts. And then finally, when you've shared your ideas, I might add one or two of my own. So when my advice comes, it comes later when we know what the problem is and we know what the context and I know how I can help you best.

and I know what you already know, so that actually my advice has a bigger chance of actually being helpful for you.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah, well, it's funny because I, you know, I did all this writing about productivity and all this stuff. And one of my friends said, you don't know your audience. And I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? I've known this audience for 10 years. And then one of my listeners who has also been a guest here, and I've showed this before showed up to one of our mastermind calls with a baby in tow. And I was like, all right, Michelle, I'm like, everything I'm telling you is nonsense. I'm giving your productivity advice based on the life of a single guy. So that's when I realized so that's the advice giving part.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Mmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Hmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Uhhh

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah.

Srini Rao

But the thing is the advice taking part is also problematic because I think there's this real danger for people to treat guidance like gospel and confuse causation with correlation. It's like, oh, this person lights scented candles and they're a bestselling author. So I'm going to do that every morning. It's like, what about the part where they sat in the chair and spent hours writing the book?

Michael Bungay Stanier

Mm-hmm.

Oh yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

What True.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Mm-hmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Exactly and the candle had gone out and they didn't even notice because they were writing the book. Yeah I mean I love Seth Godin talking about you know when people go but Seth what pencils do you use to write your books? He's like why would that why would that even matter because I use this and that but that's not the thing that gets books written. The thing is you find your own tools, you find your own path. So there is there is a discernment which is like

Is there a principle here you're teaching me or is there a tactic here you're teaching me? Because a principle can be really powerful. A tactic is a bit more hit and miss because it just depends on everything.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Wow. Let's get into a couple of the key sort of concepts here. You know, you talk about this idea of importance, something being thrilling, important, daunting, and you say that thrilling is a countermeasure against a sense of obligation. The tendrils of expectations, others in our own, can keep us rooted to the spot. Important is a countermeasure against selfishness. I'm all for investing in yourself, personal exploration and growth, but for the most part, self-help is not sufficient to create a better world. Probably my favorite quote from the book.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Mmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Oh, thanks.

Srini Rao

daunting is a countermeasure against the comfort zone. Endless influences encourage you to grind it out, play it safe, and keep it small. So why do we even need these countermeasures? I mean, how is it that those countermeasures end up like, I mean, how do we end up finding ourselves doing things that are not thrilling, that are only in the, basically catering to self-interest and cause us to play it safe?

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

You know, I...

Michael Bungay Stanier

I wanted to do two things with this book. This is my big dream. I want to unlock the best of people and I want the best of people working on stuff that matters because one is about a commitment to individual and collective potential and one is a commitment to having our earth survive.

We're all in all sorts of crises and all sorts of ways in terms of how we are as a population, as a community, as environmental stewards, you know, you name your cause and it's probably an issue with it. So these three elements, thrilling, important and daunting, they're not additive. It's not thrilling plus important plus daunting. What they are is they're three principles that are in tension with each other. You know,

One way to think about it or a metaphor for it is if you know what a murmuration is, you know one of these swirling clouds of birds of swallows and you're like how do those things work? Yeah, it's like because clearly there isn't a bird with a to-do list taped to its wing going look take a left then take a right then take a left. There's no instruction booklet on how a swirling cloud of starlings emerges and shapes and reshapes itself. But they work on principles. You know the basic principles are.

fly towards the center, flies close to the other birds as possible, don't run into any of the other birds. And those are three principles that are at that are contradictory to each other and you're trying to find the best way of kind of balancing all three of those obligations. The same is true with thrilling and important and daunting. Thrilling is often at odds with important and if it's too much of one or too much of the other if it's too if it's all just you and thrilling.

then it's just a self-centered goal. And you know, there's plenty of that around, but I want it to be more than that. If it's just important, then there's a way that you can get burnt out or get sacrificed on a cause if you don't have that kind of intrinsic motivation that thrilling can bring you. And if it's not daunting, then there's a chance that you just plateau and you stop growing, you stop stretching, you stop learning. So the goal is to optimize.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

the relationship between thrilling and important and daunting. So it's like you, I mean I've never been, I've never recorded an album, but you know how you see in videos of people recording albums and they've got the big mixing desks and people are moving sliders up and down. You're trying to move sliders up and down with thrilling, important and daunting to find the best mix for the way that you want your worthy goal to sound.

Srini Rao

Funny Michael, hang tight for a second, my headphones just died, I'm plugging them in.

Michael Bungay Stanier

I'm out. Ok, no problem.

Srini Rao

All right, sorry about that.

Michael Bungay Stanier

No problem.

We're up against the tech gods this court, clearly.

Srini Rao

Yeah, so, all right, so I didn't hear the very last part. I'll have my editor edit this, but I know you kind of talked about the sort of balance of the three.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah exactly, where it's like how do you find the best possible mix between the three?

Srini Rao

Okay, cool. Well, take a moment. So you go in then to what you call the goalie locks zone, where what you say is you're gauging the goals, do ability, the scope, the weight, um, to, and to make sure it's suitably thrilling and daunting because, you know, and I love this. You say, you know, too big. I want to solve racism is too abstractly aspirational. Does it have a just, you know, right? Feel to it, locating your worthy goal in the goalie like zone is the way to ensure that it has the right amount of happen.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Hmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah.

Srini Rao

I really appreciated that because I think that you call that something that I see very often. I mean, I will have people who have come to me and say, I want you to coach me on how to write a book that sells a million copies. And I've never written a book. I don't have a platform. I was like, I'm not going to do that because I've never sold a million books and you're setting yourself up for failure.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Well there's a couple of things going on here. The first is probably the key meta lesson of the first third of the book is your first draft of a worthy goal is not going to be your best draft and it's probably not yet your worthy goal. It's a great place to start but first drafts are always a bit crappy so consider this first jotting down of a worthy goal your best guess of what you think a worthy goal might be as a really good start and there's more work to do.

And in the book, we go through kind of three rounds of drafting the worthy goal, so that you're constantly looking to go, how do I up the thrilling and up the important and up the daunting so that it feels about right? You know, I was teaching a class yesterday online and one was like, well, my worthy goal is to help people helping people. And I'm like, that is a brilliant broad vision for something that might drive you.

But it's not a worthy goal yet, because what do you do with that? And I always think about it. And, you know, I've got an equivalent to that. The language I have around myself is how do I infect a billion people with the possibility virus? Now that sounded much better before the pandemic, but, you know, you get the idea, which is like, how do I, how do I give people the, the opportunity to make the braver choice about the options that they see in front of themselves? So the way I think of a worthy goal is I'm like,

Srini Rao

HAHAHAHAHA

Michael Bungay Stanier

it. What's the best thing that I can be working on that would serve that bigger vision that I have? So for the woman going, I want to help people who want to help people. All right, that's a great kind of North Pole North Star destination. But now what? What's what's your best guess? Is it a podcast? Is it a book? Is it a coaching program? Is it a better relationship with your family? I mean, it could be any number of different things around that. So it's like,

Srini Rao

No.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Draft and redraft and redraft because you're looking for that right combination of intrinsic and extrinsic Motivation because when a worthy goal gets difficult which it will because it's daunting So there's all sorts of difficulty baked into this You need to actually go do I have enough pull and enough push to keep me going at times where I'm tempted to quit

Srini Rao

Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that, you know, the thing that I appreciated so much was that you really kind of, you know, we're very clear on having sort of these limits like, you know, commitment, reach, time, scope and standard. Talking about those, because I feel like those are so overlooked in this process.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Mmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah well it's the first kind of path you know passes at the worthy goal allows you to kind of claim ambition for yourself and for the world and you're like it's actually inviting people to be bigger and bolder and braver but at a certain point you've got to kind of try and get a bit more specific so that you're a little clearer about what success is so um

you know, to the story you told before about a woman going, I'd like to write a book that has a million people, or sells a million copies. And I'm like, yeah, I'm like, yeah, we'd all like that. Yeah, I've even done that once. And I have no idea how to do it. I'd love to do it again. I just don't know how. So, but you're like, okay, so let's now work on the daunting side of it. It's like, honestly, if you can get a book that sells 10,000 copies, you are ahead of the game. There aren't many people who can sell 10,000 copies of a book.

Honestly, if you can get a book that sells a thousand copies, you're actually doing better than average. Yeah, so you're like, so it's then a conversation about how do you ground it in something that is appropriately daunting? Because it's like daunting enough to try and sell a thousand copies of a book. It's not daunting for me. Like I know that I can sell a thousand copies of a book that I write. That's not hard at all for me, but it was a one stage. But now, so I'd have a different goal.

Srini Rao

You're well ahead of the... Yeah, exactly.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Now I actually wouldn't actually set a sales target for a book because one of the things I've come to learn is there's very little you can do to control actually who buys your book. So I'm much more committed to a process where I'm like how do I write a book that is the shortest book that I can write that is the most useful book on building relationships or whatever it might be that I'm writing on next.

Srini Rao

Damn.

Srini Rao

Trust me.

Srini Rao

Yeah, absolutely. So the other thing I want to talk about is what you call prizes and punishments because I, you know, you say prizes comfort, broadly speaking, the prize for not taking on the worthy goal is the maintenance of what you've gathered in your life so far. Punishments, costs, you have to see both sides of the equation before you can see how it all adds up. And so the thing that I run up against over and over again when, you know, in my writing, my audience is, you know,

Michael Bungay Stanier

Mmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah.

Srini Rao

the same sort of handful of excuses or obstacles. It's like, oh, I don't have time. I'm like, yeah, but somehow people, Laura Vanderkam said probably the smartest thing I'd ever heard about time. She summed up time management in one sentence. She's like, if you can't find time for something, it's not a priority.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Mm-hmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Right. Well, that is...

I think that's true and one of the things that I think that reminds me at least is the luck, the privilege I have of having some time and being able to create time. You know, I'm married, I do have a wife but I don't have kids and that was a very happy, active, deliberate choice to be child-free. But it doesn't mean that for instance I have more time to myself because I don't have

sporting events or cooking meals for kids or just being tired from looking after kids. So I do think that it is true that there are sometimes where you're like you know what me raising a family or me needing to do three jobs just so I can pay my bills actually is a statement of what is that priority for me. Then you go so if you if you if you're driven by writing a book say

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Like not many people, sensible people don't want to write books. People like you and me write books because we're not that sensible. But if it's said, say for the sake of argument, somebody's going, but you know what, I have three jobs and I want to write a book. Then you get into this conversation and this is why this question is so powerful. The yes and the no question, which is like, well, what are you willing to sacrifice to, to say yes to writing this book? Because it's unrealistic to think you can just add on.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

to your already full life. So what do you say no to? Is it a particular treat? Is it a certain amount of time? Is it sleeping in till 6 o'clock in the morning, now you have to wake up at 4.30 in the morning to get 45 minutes of writing in every day? What are the choices you're making around that? And the second third of the book is a question of basically, are you really up for this? Are you prepared to pay the price?

Are you prepared for the opportunity cost of you saying yes to this? Because those prices and those opportunity costs are there.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I, I realized at some point in my life that there is literally nothing in life that you get without giving something else up. Like I realized that every decision in life is a trade off between freedom and security.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Right.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Right, that's interesting.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I mean that's a that's a broad generalization I mean, I think you put up when somebody tells me they're working three jobs to get you know Put food on the table and keep the lights on I'm like, okay your excuse for you saying you don't have time is a legitimate obstacle It's not an excuse, but a lot of other people saying they don't have time I'm like no, it's just that you don't manage it the way you should

Michael Bungay Stanier

Right.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Well, I think, I mean, I just want people to look at reality and go, if you had to find time, where would you find it? If you had to find time, what would you stop doing? And I, I do think that people like you and me run the danger of getting a bit too gung ho and going, look, we're, we're relatively wealthy. We're relatively time rich. We're relatively money rich. We've, we've just got more resource that we can draw on to do some of this stuff.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

And then you project it. I do this. I projected onto the world going, well, I can do this. So you should be able to do it as well. And I'm like, ah, you know what, when other people say that I did this, I climbed this mountain literally or metaphorically. So just do what I did. I'm like, that's just not that helpful. But this idea of this is why it's teaching a principle rather than a tactic. The principle is examine your life, understand you've got choices to make and understand the consequences of saying yes and saying no.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

No, absolutely I.

Srini Rao

Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate that so much because I think that is, you know, something that I became, you know, painfully aware of, I think over the last probably year or two, as I've talked to, you know, people like Seth Godin, people like you, like, you know, what is so much of what we do and you know, what we write about what we talk about, I'm like, this caters to an audience that is in a position of privilege. And it's on us to keep that in mind, like, when we don't do that, you know, in a lot of ways, sometimes I have even thought

Michael Bungay Stanier

Mmm.

Srini Rao

Have we planted seeds of dissatisfaction where there were none before when you start to tell people, oh, you need to go live this like remarkable life, you need to go be, you know, have a four hour work week when they were perfectly happy. Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah.

You know, I, I personally have a bit of a response to, to the gurus. You know, I went to a conference some years ago and every keynote speaker had clearly been taught the same basic structure for a keynote speech, which is like, I'm amazing, but I wasn't always amazing here in my hardships I had, and there's kind of a checklist of hardships that people kick off and it was like, ah,

I was going to die, but metaphorically, but I didn't. And this is how I drove back and it was just down to me and my own grit and my own self-esteem and my own awareness and my own hard work. And it just feels like that is a, whilst I'm sure those stories are basically true, they're also exceptions rather than the rule. And they're also, I just feel like they're pushing.

Srini Rao

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEE E E E E E E E

Michael Bungay Stanier

Often there's like and you can get my secrets for how to do this upsold at the back of the room and it just feels a little bit snake-oily

Srini Rao

Hey

Srini Rao

Well, you know, I ended up writing this article after, you know, I mean, the thing that I think I finally came to takes us back to context. I wrote this piece titled, Why Outliers Are Terrible Role Models for Most of Us. And it's because if you think about it, right, who ends up being the people who speak at conferences, write books, end up on the covers of magazines? They're all outliers. And I remember...

Michael Bungay Stanier

Mmm, that's right.

Srini Rao

I'll never forget this. My dad was right after I finished business school. I was struggling to find a job. And my dad says to me, well, not everybody can be the next Steve Jobs. And it pissed me off because I was like, you would never tell my sister that she can't be any kind of doctor, you know, that she wants to be. To my surprise, if you go and look through my medium articles, you will find an article titled, You're Probably Not Going to Become the Next Steve Jobs, Oprah or Beyonce.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Right.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Right right you're like damn it yeah but there's this there's this different it's like what are you promising and I think it's all about the promise that you're making which is like if I can give you the courage to make some courageous choices about the life you live then you can figure out what happiness means to you that is

Srini Rao

Which was hilarious, like, you know, to think, it's like, wait a minute, he was right, and I didn't want to hear that.

Michael Bungay Stanier

a broader, vaguer, but truer promise than I can, you know, you can be a millionaire, you can be the next Steve Jobs, you can be on the cover of the magazine, which is the promised people here, or the promise that's often kind of made, and I think that promise is a slippery one.

Srini Rao

Yeah. So one of the things that you talk about is this idea that growth is an S curve. You start slow, move more quickly up the curve and finally begin to plateau to continue to grow. To unlock your greatness, you need to make the leap to the next S curve and the next stage. And I wish I had actually pulled this for our conversation because there's a clip from Ryan Holliday in one of our interviews where he talks about sort of the next level.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Mmm.

Srini Rao

And he says, you know, yeah, I've sold a million, you know, millions of books. He said, and the thing is that, you know, everybody thinks that, oh, I'll be happy when, you know, I sell a million books. Then what he was like, it's, it's not, you know, like hit a home run. It's, you know, hit a grand slam during the, the world series. Like, and it just keeps going and going and going. So how do you, you know, create this, you know, sort of balance between growth and fulfillment, because where does that.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Right.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Right.

Michael Bungay Stanier

I can't believe we've got like two minutes to try and figure out the greatest conundrum of human life which is around what does success look like, what it means to you now. And I think that's in some ways the question that you need to keep asking which is like so what is success for me? And what I suspect is as you get older and if you're lucky enough to have had some external

Ryan, you know, selling a million and a half copies of his books or whatever, or having X hundred thousand people follow you on social media or whatever your metric is. It just is true for lots of us that we get, we hit the, we get those trophies and we're like meh, okay. All right, good. That was a brief moment of glory. And now what? Um, you know, and it comes back to timeless wisdom, which is like in the end, you keep chopping the wood and carrying the water.

because the contentment is often, am I doing work that in itself is a reward for what I do? So, you know, the Coaching Habit book is sold north of a million copies now, and that is approximately 1.2 million copies more than I thought I would sell of that book. So it's like, it's amazing.

So there's one part of me going, it's like Michael stop writing books because now you're just going to write disappointing follow ups to the coaching habit book in terms of sales numbers. But I feel like I've got a sense of purpose and I get a sense of contentment from writing books so I'm trying to become more of a writer. I'm trying to actually reframe my identity as being not an author, somebody who has books, but a writer, somebody who makes writing central to his creative life.

And that's how I'm trying to define success, which is like, am I being a writer? Am I living that life?

Srini Rao

All right, so in the interest of time we're gonna finish with two questions because both of us have meetings You know, thanks to all our stupid tech dude Bockels You go into sort of four groups of people that you talk about the healer Slash lover the teacher the magician the visionary ruler and the trickster tell me about the roles those people play in our lives

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah, so one of the key beliefs I have is when you're trying to do a worthy goal you shouldn't travel alone. It's just, it's hard, impossible really to do a worthy goal by yourself. And then the question is so who do you bring in to help, particularly if you're kind of a bit sort of solo oriented like I am for instance. And I just borrowed wisdom from North American indigenous wisdom which is calling in the direction. So as you say, for

main directions, the warrior, the healer, the teacher, and then the visionary. And then you've got a kind of fifth energy, which is the trickster. And it's really going, you know, each one of those has a certain energy and power and skill to it. The war is about boundaries and kind of pushing back. The healer is about rest and recovery and renewal. The teacher is about learning wisdom, knowing what you don't know, knowing what you don't know you don't know.

And the vision is about ambition and horizons and a ruthlessness and a drive. And the question is for you and your worthy goal in this moment, which energies do you have and which energies don't you have? And how do you have and who do you need to call in and lean on and get support from if you're missing certain energies? So it's just a different framework to kind of go, how do I need to get around me to do this? Because if you're doing it by yourself, you're making it hard for yourself.

Srini Rao

Hmm. Wow. Well, I want to wrap with my final question, which it's always fun to ask people this question when they're coming back for a second time to see how it changes from their previous answer. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Michael Bungay Stanier

Mmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Oh, that is a good question. You know, I should have thought this through. I don't know. What's the wrap up question, Srini Rao e?

Srini Rao

That is the wrap up question.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Oh, I misheard it. Can you say it again for me?

Srini Rao

Yeah, what do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Michael Bungay Stanier

Okay.

I think it is having done enough work that you find your own voice. It just takes time to find a way that feels real and true and quirky in terms of this is how I show up and I say my stuff. It's learning how to trust what's weird about you. It's learning how to let go of the stuff that doesn't really fit you.

And eventually you find a way to kind of go, this is actually, you know, I've got a little, I've got a little volume knob on my desk, which goes to 11 because it's a nod to spinal tap. And it's like, you know, have you figured out how to turn your own volume up to 11? And that makes you unmistakable.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

It's funny because you I think you told me that last time and it was still one of my favorite answers like I'm pretty sure You know what that actually is a quote I think I directly quote you at the end of unmistakable is the very it's in the conclusion to the book It's like turn the volume up to 11, you know 10 and blow out the speakers

Michael Bungay Stanier

Oh is it? That's true!

Michael Bungay Stanier

Hahahaha

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah, that's funny. Well, I don't know whether I'm just unimaginative or consistent or both of those things.

Srini Rao

Though consistent is great. I love that answer. I always have that, you know, to it, it just, you know, to me that is, you know, in a lot of ways, you know, it's, that is a lot of ways the embodiment of unmistakable is to be unapologetic and turn the volume up. Well, as always, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us, to share your wisdom and insights. Where can people find out more about you, your books, everything else they're up to?

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

It's been a pleasure, yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier

The best place is the website which is mbs.works. If you want the corporate training company that's boxofcrayons.com but for kind of more individual stuff and helping people be a force for change mbs.works.

Srini Rao

Awesome. And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.