Rebecca Heiss | From Stone Age to Digital Age: The Evolution of Human Instincts

Srini Rao

Rebecca, welcome to the unmistakable creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

I'm delighted to be here. Thanks for having me.

Srini Rao

Yeah, it is my pleasure to have you here. I found out about your book in another book that I was reading written by one of our former guests and we wrote a book called instinct. And I reached out to you because I thought finally somebody is actually backing this up with some real fucking research not you know, just new age bullshit and nonsense, which I feel like so many books in this genre tend to be based on anecdotal evidence, but yours was based on real research. So

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Hmm.

Srini Rao

I thought I'd start with what is one of my favorite questions given that I see you as a social scientist and that is what social group were you a part of in high school and what impact did that end up having on what you ended up doing with your life and your career?

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Oh my gosh, I love that question. I was kind of a floater, honestly. I kind of got along with everybody. So I was not cool enough to be a mainstream jock, although I was a very accomplished athlete. I was a basketball player in high school. And, but I was a nerd too, right? Like I was a 4.0 student. And so I kind of floated. I was super lucky in that everybody was kind of kind to me. I didn't really have a space for where I fit.

But in some senses that allowed me to see multiple perspectives and hang out with the theater nerds and hang out with the folks that were into the new age kind of drug scene. And I just floated and it was a privilege for me to float in those different worlds and to see the dynamics of different tribes. I think it definitely influenced me later on to recognize just how powerful it is when we choose a tribe to identify with. You know, how much that defines...

us and the expectations that other people have of us? Yeah, that's a great question. Never been asked that before.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, okay, so I'm not going to let the basketball thing goes. I'm always fascinated by people who are athletes because I was not one of them. Even though I was on marching band, which you get athletic credit for and running around with a 50 pound tuba as athletic. But beyond that, I don't really, I beyond that, like when clarinet players don't hold their instruments up, I'm like, you idiots. Stop being lazy. But you know,

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Hehehe

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

That's for real. Yeah.

Srini Rao

Something that always fascinates me about athletes is how much being an athlete ends up influencing them later in their lives. And I can't tell you the number of guests I've had here who credit being on a high school sports team to a lot of what they've ended up doing. So I wonder what lessons both in terms of habits and discipline, but also in your own work around instinct, did you get from playing basketball?

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Well, let me start with the fact that I think basketball in general, and there's a crazy statistic out there, and I don't want to misquote, so somebody's going to look this up and hopefully you'll get it right. I'll look it up and put it in the show notes or something. But it's like 93% of women CEOs played a high school sport. It's an absurd, absurdly high number. And so I think that's so telling in the drive in the way...

the way teams shape us. I think for me, there was a lot of discipline to it. And part of it was I was following in my sister's footsteps. My sister was this incredible athlete. I really wanted to be her. And so I kind of followed in her footsteps there. But being coached, being able to take feedback well, like watching game footage. I think about now, the editing process of writing a book or...

you know, being on stage and speaking to groups and then going back and watching the film. Like, I feel like I'm still watching basketball films going, oh gosh, I see where I screwed up there or I see where I missed that opportunity here. And so having the discipline to, I think watch yourself on film is huge and get that feedback. And then of course, there's the sort of more common answer about teamwork and cooperation and recognizing that like, yes, you are one individual among.

you know, 10 or 11 others and everybody has their role, right? I, I was, I was five foot two my freshman year. So I was a point guard. I was a tiny little kid. And, um, but my sophomore year I was five, nine, and I didn't stop there. So like I had this massive growth spur. I completely lost all of my handling skills, right? But I now had this new found, right? So gawky.

Srini Rao

Wow.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I would imagine I was thinking about that. I was like, I was like, how do you go from five two to five nine as a point guard? Like what does that do to your like ball handling abilities?

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Oh man, I was so gawky, I was so gawky. But like, but I realized, oh, this is a new role I get to play and now I'm throwing elbows and oh, that's cool, that's an interesting. So again, in some ways, very much interesting right now that I think about it. I was floating through the positions in basketball the same way I was floating through tribes in life and realizing, oh, this is the role I have to play here. What is just coming to mind as I say that is so often, I feel like we wear masks.

in life of like, how do I fit in here? What do I need to become? How do I need to play this role? And a part of sports for me was figuring that out. I'm not saying that's always a good thing to do, right? Not showing up as your fully authentic self, but being able to become that chameleon and say, what is needed of me here, is a powerful lesson that I certainly carried with me.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, two questions come from that. You mentioned wanting to be your sister. So I wonder how you follow in the footsteps of somebody you look up to without feeling like you're living in their shadow.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, you don't. I mean, look, I would love to have like pearls of wisdom there. And I was so lucky in that, you know, my sister was an incredible, she was valedictorian, you know, the whole, she had, she was recruited, yeah, recruited D1, recruited D1 to play basketball, like the whole thing. Um, and I don't know how actually maybe it's because she was such a remarkable, giving person, but she allowed me the space to be who I was.

Srini Rao

Hahaha!

Srini Rao

Trust me, I get it. I have a sister like that.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

despite the fact that I just desperately wanted to be her. And so I really credit her for that. I don't think it had anything to do with me trying to set myself apart from her. Although there is a lot of science behind that in siblings, that the second born is really often the one that is like trying not to follow the rules of their parents and not being the sort of authoritarian, I'm going to follow all the rules, I'm gonna break all of them, I'm gonna be the rebel.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

just because that creates space for me to have an identity outside of, you know, other roles. Um, so I'm getting off topic here, but yeah, I, I think I was lucky and I don't have the answer to that because I was just like, I felt more myself when I was closer to my sister.

Srini Rao

It's funny because my sister is younger, but it's kind of the opposite with us Like I'm the one who broke all the rules and basically didn't follow any of the things that a good Indian kid is supposed to Do and she became a doctor. Yeah as my friend jokes, she's every Indian parents dream come true

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Really?

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Oh, there you go. Yeah, there you go.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

I'm sure that has something to do with gender as well, right? She was probably, is she the first born girl in the family? Right, so yeah, interesting.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Did you and your sister ever play in the same team?

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

We did once for one year just in summer camp. So it was a blast. Like we played, we played a lot of three on three together and tournaments and things like that. But never, never on the varsity team together, which was a shame. It would have been a blast.

Srini Rao

So a couple of things around basketball. Well, one was the piece on looking at game tape. And it's funny, I'm a weirdo who doesn't watch sports, but I play sports video games religiously. So I know about the NBA because of that. And like, I'm always stunned by the number of professional coaches who actually got their start by watching game film, like Eric Spolster on Miami Heat. Like, these are my NBA 2K facts from playing video games.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Okay? Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, yeah

Srini Rao

But I think that the thing that I find striking, and I was having a conversation with my friend Sam about this, and I coined this term, the paradox of receptive resistance, which is we're so like in need of feedback when we're young, and yet that is when we're least open to it, because our egos are too big. So talk to me about why we are so, if you look at it from just sort of a standpoint of instinct in your research, why are we so,

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Mmm.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

That's so interesting.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

Srini Rao

resistant to feedback that actually can improve performance because like you said watching game film is a bit like me going back and listening to my podcast and thinking to myself, fuck, that's not as stupid. But yeah, you know, I like I go back and I listen to a year or two, and I'm like, oh, I'm like, this is cringe worthy. And I realized that it should be because I think it was, if I remember correctly, it was what's his name, Reid Hoffman, who said, if you're not embarrassed by the first version of your product, you've shipped it too late.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Sure.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Oh my god, I'm an idiot. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Hmm. Yes, yes.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

That's like, man, you just stole my line. Yeah, that's exactly it. I was like, that's all I can think about, yep.

Srini Rao

But what is it about humans that makes us so resistant to that idea? Because you would not believe the amount of people who tell me fear of public opinion is what keeps them from doing what they want to do. And I'm like, guess what? If you are in the public eye in any way at all, you better get used to the fact that they're going to be people who hate you.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, absolutely. And I think actually I'm gonna push back a little bit on what you said because I don't think we're super resistant to that feedback when we're really young. Like super young and then we hit like the 12 year old, 11, 12 in pre-adolescence and we become super aware that it's not just us. Like we are part of a system, a part of a tribe, a part of like, oh gosh, I have to meet the expectations of other people. And that's when it starts to be so freaking impossible.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

um, to, to hear that feedback because it's super, super shaming and scary for us because evolutionarily, right? If you are in the public eye, if you are putting yourself out and like sticking your head up from the rest of your tribe, who is just kind of fitting name, what you're basically signaling is, Hey, there's an opportunity here for you to love or hate me. And, um, and the stakes can be very, very high because if you are hated or disowned by the tribe.

You die, right? Like, like evolutionarily was not, we weren't very kind to others. If you are not providing resources that are valuable to the tribe, why would we keep you along? If you are not able to defend yourself or defend others, why, you become a burden. And humans are so incredibly social and sensitive to this feedback as a result, because if you tell me like, I'm not enough, oh my gosh, that is.

one step away from a death sentence. You know, um, obviously not, not the case in the modern environment, but that's still how our brains are programmed is to think about this as, as a life and death situation. And so we have massive stress response. And in some cases that, that shame, that shame response can be very motivating. Right? Like when I watch game footage of myself now, and I, I hear myself and I'm like, Oh my gosh, if you say.

right? One more time as a filler word, right? Right? I'm going to strangle you, right? You know, and it's incredibly motivating. But it's also, you know, potentially very painful and difficult on bigger issues. So yeah, it's an interesting, I guess, holdover effect from our evolutionary past.

Srini Rao

Hahaha

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, so the one other final question I have, and I promise we'll get into the book right after this. You mentioned going from five to two to five nine in the span of a year. And so I'd imagine if you were a point guard, you were pretty damn good. And at some point, like as a part of that growth spurt, your performance probably suffered a little bit during the adaptation process. Talk to me about that and how you actually managed to get through that.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Oh, you're okay, I like these, these are fun.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, yeah. You know what? I played a lot by myself. I, again, this is the advantage of having an older sister who was also gawkily tall and skinny for her age. I didn't want to perform poorly in front of people. That again, just like what we were talking about before, it was a deep seated fear. And as a result,

of this sort of perfectionist drive, I would hold back a little bit until I was certain I could do it well. So I held myself back a little bit that first year in not playing up to my full potential, like really throwing elbows, or really drop stepping in the paint, until I had those moves perfected. And so I was that kid, you know, you hear these things about LeBron and Kobe showing up an hour before practice, that was me.

You know, I was showing up every weekend, practicing, practicing so that when I got to the game, you know, I could fill, I could fulfill that role. Um, and I, the thing I'll say is I, I ended up not being the shooter. Like I was not the, um, the person who was going to score the number of points that, you know, that was not going to be the high score. I found my role in defense. I was like, listen, I am gawky as hell, but I will throw my body anywhere, any place.

anytime to get the ball. And so I ended up being the one who was going to outwork. If I couldn't have the talent, I was gonna outwork you.

Srini Rao

So one thing I wonder about that, how much of that is nature? How much of it is nurture? Because people have asked me, I had a roommate, I was like, did you get straight A's in high school? I was like, yeah, of course I did, I'm Indian. That's a stupid question. It's just, yeah, that was like a non-option. That was not even a discussion in our household. But I realize now that was a huge advantage to be raised like that because we were basically sort of indirectly

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Mmm.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, right. There's not an option.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

Srini Rao

taught about the value of intrinsic motivation. And so I wonder for somebody like you to show up, you know, as you mentioned, sort of like, Kobe and LeBron, like before practice, before everybody else, like how much of that is the result of your upbringing? And how much of that is just how you're wired?

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

You know, it's a great question and it's one of those that like, if biologists could actually figure this out, we might be getting somewhere. I think for a long time, actually, the answer was, oh, it's genetics. It's like 100% genetics and behaviorism went way out of fashion. And now we're kind of swinging back around to this idea that actually we're a lot more tabula rasa than we thought originally. You know, genetics certainly do play a role. But in things like IQ.

Srini Rao

Ha ha ha!

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

What we're finding, especially with work done by Carol Dweck and others in the mindset area, IQ is not fixed at all. It's actually highly influenced by your mindset, by your culture, by your surroundings. Willpower, same thing. It is wild how much behavior and culture plays a role. I am definitely of the opinion that it's your surroundings when anything else that determines your behavior.

aptitude.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, so the thing it's funny that you mentioned we're kind of swinging the other way when it comes to genetics, because like one thing that I have found pretty consistently is that there's almost this sort of hatred towards the idea of genetic determinism and all self-help literature and I'm like, that is absolute bullshit genetics matter. Like, you know, like chances are you could kick my ass in a game of one on one. Yeah, like I'm a scrawny indie. Yeah, you're

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Sure. Yeah. It is. It does.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, because I'm big!

Srini Rao

you're tall, you played basketball, like it's you know, as I've said, like me and LeBron are never going to play a game of pickup, like it's just never going to happen, no matter how hard I work. But let's get into the book, talking about what led you drown down this trajectory to do this work in particular, and the path that has led you there. Because as it is with the case with all of my guests, like this doesn't sound like the career that you get when you go to the high school guidance counselor asks you what you want to do with your life.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Right, right, right.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

There's a funny story there. I think they determined that I should be a plumber or a septic tank install person because I liked working on my hands. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that was my like aptitude test. It was like, hey, you should be a septic tank installer. I'm like, okay, that's helpful, thanks. Anyway, I was lucky enough to go to undergrad and my advisor was one of the, I don't know, predominant people in the world of evolutionary psychology.

Srini Rao

Seriously?

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

So David Sloan Wilson ended up as my master's advisor. Let me back up. So I ended up taking a evolution of human behavior class from David Sloan Wilson. His wife was my master's advisor. So I ended up like spending time at their house over dinners, you know, talking through evolutionary psychology and human behavior. And I feel like the two of them just gave me this pair of glasses that

nobody else seemed to have in the world, right? It was this lens through which I could see everything so clearly in the way that humans behaved and all of these interactions that I saw one way before, I saw completely differently now, because I couldn't go to a bar and watch a dude try and pick up some woman without going, oh my gosh, dude, quit flashing your Rolex. We all get it, you're rich, you're trying to signal to her that you're a good provider. I mean, it was like this weird.

flip that I couldn't turn off my brain. And so every, every time I watched humans doing anything, it became like a study to me. I was like, oh, what would drive that? You know, why, why would they be doing that rather than this? So I started looking at the world as one big puzzle and I felt like I had these special glasses to see more clearly. So that's kind of the start of it. The short version of a much longer story is that after

After grad school, I was teaching, I was in an academic position, as a lot of us end up in, and I took a look at my life. My sister-in-law, unfortunately, was diagnosed with terminal cancer. And it's one of those moments that pulls the rug out a little bit. You take assessment of your life, and I was like, man, everything that I have done up to this point, I've made decisions out of fear, right? Like, I am not gonna pursue basketball.

Um, because it'll take away from my studies and what if I don't get a four O in college and how, you know, like I didn't, I made every single decision in my career on the safe route. And, um, so I quit my job, sold my house and divorced my husband that month, which like, you know, I mean, it was a, it was a pretty massive shift. Um, but I, I decided I was going to take this special pair of glasses that I had and say, all right, what would, what would life look like if I wasn't constrained by all of these?

Srini Rao

Wow.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

patterns of belief, these patterns of fear that have kept me alive, right? All the biological patterns that keep me alive. And that became the outline for the book.

Srini Rao

Well, on that note, I want to bring back a clip from a previous episode from a conversation I had with David Epstein, which I think will make a nice jump off point for what you just said.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Ha ha ha.

Srini Rao

So you seem to have figured out early on what you wanted to do and found something you love. And I realized I was not so fortunate. At the same time, I realized that I tried to force fit what I thought I should do with my life pretty early on, only to realize that I was so far off from it. When people would ask me what I was going to do when I got out of business school, I would tell them, I don't know, as long as it has nothing to do with the internet, which clearly the universe has a sense of humor.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Ha!

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, right. Exactly. You know, I find that clip fascinating. And I, I think there's a challenge to it as well. You know, he mentions it's the 18 to 20 year old time when we're like, Oh, what do you want to do with your life? And we're like, we have no idea. Gosh, that's such a small slice of perspective. And I should mention that this, this divorces of my husband and changing career path, that was in my thirties. Like this was not, this was not

following that fear path for a long time. And I wish there was some way to shortcut this feeling of, and you'll forgive my language here, but I'm like, I'm in the fuck it 40s. You know, like, ah, fuck it. This has to be important to me. This has to be valuable to me. If this person is gonna judge me by the way I look or the partner that I'm with or the show that I like, or then it's not worth my time. And I wish that I could give that gift.

to 18 year olds. I wish I could give that perspective to 16 year olds. And I'm not certain that is not just something that we have to earn over time. Because the older I get and the more wisdom I see in my elders of they're even more advanced of, yeah, no, like this is all that matters. And I find that just really a challenge maybe to issue that to others.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, you mentioned that you worked as an educator briefly. Like I've always wondered when I've talked to people like you, why we do not teach some of these essential skills in school, because I think they're hard to quantify. It's hard to pin down and say, OK, yeah, your instincts have improved. Like, how do you even measure that? Right. Because I think we're obsessed with being able to measure things. So one, I wonder, you know, what do you think we should be teaching in school about this and the.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Right, right.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Mm.

Srini Rao

you open the book by saying thanks to millions of years of evolution, our brains are amazing at recognizing danger and instantaneously respond responding in ways that keep us safe before even conscious of what is happening. Fear is at the root of our survival. And yet, you know, we're basically in my mind operating in a modern world with our ancient brains to make some of our most important decisions.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

That's it. Yeah, that's exactly it. I actually, when I, when I was an educator, the first thing I did was I went to the dean and I was like, I'm going to teach an evolution for every one course, um, an evolution for human and human behavior for everyone course. Because again, I just want to provide those glasses for as many people as I can to say, look at the world, look at your life, look at what you're doing, look at the decisions and the judgments and the fears that you have. They're not rational. You know, more, more people fear snakes than they do death. More people fear.

public speaking than they do death, which is hilarious. Right? Like, wait a second. That doesn't, okay. In the context of evolutionary psychology, of course, you're like, oh, you're afraid you're gonna screw up in front of your peers and they're gonna reject you. And that rejection means you are actually gonna die. And then it becomes logical, but not for the modern world, right? Like, okay, so you get up and you have a terrible set in the standup comic routine. What happens?

Srini Rao

Yeah. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

nothing, right? Like nothing bad happens. Your friends are going to be supportive and they're going to see you and they're like, wow, you went all into that. I'm so proud of you. You know, congratulations. In fact, they might respect you more for it, but in our heads, it's like the worst thing that could possibly happen. So, you know, teaching, I think teaching some of these basics of, of the stress response and how we can begin to, uh, to recalibrate it, you know, seeking, seeking discomfort.

I challenge everybody that I speak to go stand on the street corner and sing Twinkle Little Star as loud as you can. And everybody's like, no way, what are you talking about? I'm like, fine. Then at the crosswalk, grab somebody's hand and do-si-do across the street. I'm like, no, that's insane. I'm like, nothing bad's going to happen. It's just your brain saying, oh my gosh, and you'll feel your stress response. Come on. You'll fear your heartbeat starts to pound. You'll start to sweat.

And I'll ask people to end, okay, did you die? No, great. What you did then is you began to layer down this footage for your brain to refer back to and go, oh, right. I know what this discomfort is and it's not a life in that situation, right? This isn't a tiger. This is the modern day. Nothing bad's gonna happen. I'm okay. I don't have to stress out about this. And that kind of stress inoculation, I think is maybe one of the most important things that we can teach anybody.

to have a more fulfilling purposeful life that they're actually choosing rather than having it chosen for them out of fear.

Srini Rao

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think for the purposes of this conversation, let's define what instinct is, because I think, as I said, to me, that was one of the things that struck me most was that you backed this up with so much research. And I feel like instinct typically is one of those things that the definition of it is really sort of nebulous. We kind of talk about it and we don't, we don't really have terminology to actually break it down and say, what the hell is instinct?

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Nyan!

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Okay.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Right, right. I mean.

Srini Rao

You know, it's like trust your instincts is this like beautiful, you know, this really nice sounding platitude. And it's like, well, what if your instincts are wrong? Like what if your instincts are totally off?

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

It's-

Yeah, like 100% my instincts and this is I don't mean that to offend you, but my instinct, if I saw you in person, my instincts would be don't trust that human being. Why? You're a different skin color than me, which means you're from a different tribe than me. Now, that is a terrible instinct to have in a global economy in a space where like, we are no longer tribal beings. But the instinct is this automatic reaction.

that happens at the level of the subconscious that we're not consciously processing that is built literally to keep us alive. And so it results in all sets of adaptive behaviors like don't trust that person, run away, fight them, flee from them, freeze. But again, are not adaptive for the modern society. Like if we're unaware of our instincts.

or we're constantly giving into the platitude of, oh yeah, trust your instincts. Well, my gut is gonna be wrong a lot of the time because my gut is built for survival and sex. I mean, let's be honest, sex and survival is literally the only thing your brain does all day, every day. If you wanna challenge me on that, bring it on. It is all about sex and survival. Like literally the first thing you see about a person is like, ooh, can I have sex with them? Nope, they're a threat. That's it. Like that's all you're doing all day, every day. Or can I, can I, yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah, well, I agree with you. People always ask, like, how do you make a decision on dating? I'm like, let's be really honest. Most guys if they were being completely transparent would basically say I look at that person say what I want to have sex with them if the answer is no swipe left. Like, I think anybody who says that's not true is full of shit.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

That's it. Golly. I agree because that is the basic instinct of, and for women I'll say the exact thing holds true and it's less about looks at the level of gender for women. It's more about status. So if you have a job that is earning less than 50K, for example, or like you're not wearing that Rolex or that whatever signal it is to show that you're.

a high upstanding citizen that makes a lot of money, because that's what we value men for in the society, unfortunately, is their paycheck. Men respect other men because of their paycheck, and women respect men because of their paycheck, and that is, I think, undermining a lot of our society right now, especially as women have moved into positions of power and leadership.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I want to come back to that. There's a lot there. We'll come back to that because I think it makes sense for a later section of the book. But one thing that you talk about is the role of instinct and decisions. And you say that our ability to make good decisions to grades under stress largely as a result of two mechanisms, a narrowing or premature closing closure of the decision making process that leads to all options either not being evaluated or being not being evaluated carefully enough before a decision is made.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, yeah there is, sorry.

Srini Rao

an unsystematic scan in which review of options available goes from being logical or frantic or disorganized often feeding back into a bias resolution, which I think our dating app example actually works perfectly for talking about this. Yeah. So talk to me about that. Like, when we're doing something like making decisions on dating, I think what is going on from a sort of brain science standpoint, as somebody is, you know, swiping based on what you've just said, in the passage I've read.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

It actually works really well. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Oh my gosh. Well, the swiping technique is, there's a lot more happening there. But at a very basic level, what's happening is under stress, under pressure, our cortisol is going up. Testosterone is typically going, well, for men, it can be going up alongside cortisol for a dating app, for example, which means you're now making more risky decisions or you're willing to make more risky decisions.

And the power to override those at a conscious level, at a cognitive level, using your frontal lobe, that sort of gift of human evolution declines. So you're reliant more on the story shortcuts and instincts that kept us alive or at a very basics can say, oh, you know what that person looks like? They look very symmetrical. This is all the brain stuff that's going on in behind the scenes is you're looking at an image. The person looks symmetrical, which is a...

a way of determining, oh, they must be youthful and they must therefore have high reproductive value. Meanwhile, you're like, she's pretty, me mate, yes. And we're not considering, well, what is she like in person? That narrowing of the field is what are the other options? How do I explore whether this person will be a good long-term mate or a short-term mate? So we're making these rapid, rapid-fire decisions without...

thinking about the consequences, thinking about long-term. And again, remembering that for our ancestors long-term, like 25 years is a long lifespan. So, you know, if you're past that point, this is kind of free time for us. Those decisions were made rapidly without a whole lot of consideration, other than what am I willing to risk?

Srini Rao

Mm hmm. Well, you say how do we get our brains to allows to make the allows the time to make the best decisions to rewire your survival instincts, you're going to have to bend time. So sticking with this dating app example, because let's face it, like you said, you know, you'll be thinking, okay, if I could have sex with this person tonight, who gives a damn about the long term, I'm not very concerned, like, that's the least of my concerns at the moment. So, you know, how do you how do you think about that? Like, when you talk about this idea of bending time, because I think like, if you were taught

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Right.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

So.

Srini Rao

long term is really not even a consideration in this moment.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Right. And actually this is a challenge for the dating app to talk about bending time, because bending time is actually about finding novelty, which again compounds the problem with the dating app, because what are we swiping through? Like a hundred women at night? And part of the issue is then this'll bleed into another chapter of the book of like more variety. Our brains are built to say, oh yes, more variety, please. I want more options, which ultimately doesn't help our decision-making at all. In fact, we...

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Believe it or not, we actually want fewer options. It's just not what our brain believes. We're happier with fewer options. So what's happening as you're flipping through here is rather than bending time in a way that is potentially useful to give yourself more time to make the decisions. So I will tell people to go do something novel, like drive home from work a different way.

In the case of the dating app, instead of just flipping, swiping, there's the word I'm looking for, swiping right or swiping left, take some time to look at parts of the profile that you wouldn't normally look at. Because what you're forcing your brain to do is see something that it didn't see before. And so you're slowing down, you're actually creating more space for your frontal lobe to catch up and come online and go, oh, you know what, maybe she's not as attractive now that I've read her profile.

and I start to see things that don't fit my ideal mate. So that's part of the bending time or creating time for your brain. It's really making haste slowly.

Srini Rao

Well, so I said that I wanted to come back to this idea of status because you talked about what you call the sex instinct, you say the sex instinct that equates height with status is likely the driving force that often puts tall men in positions of power. And it reminded me of this moment, I don't remember who it was, it might have been Annie Duke or somebody else we had as a guest on the show is like, well, if you go out, go out with your ugliest friends, because then you'll be perceived as more attractive. And I was like, wow, okay, great. Thanks. It's like, get my friends. It's like you're shorter than me. Come on, let's go out.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Mm.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

100%

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, there's a reason, listen, there's a reason that presidential candidates, once television became a thing, started wearing lifts in their heels, like lifts in their shoes. They want to be taller than their opponent because it shows dominance. And women are like, oh my gosh, that person, and men too, they're more likely to respect the person that is looking down on them as a dominant figure, which is so absurd. But these are the kinds of biases that create terrible decisions. Of course, I respect that CEO.

And the brain will come up with all kinds of reasons why I respect that CEO. When in reality, the only decision and the only reason I actually respect that person is because they're taller than me. But that's not what I'm gonna say, right? Because we're really good at self-deception. Or because, you know, she's beautiful, right? It's just a great personality. So that comparison mode that you talk about though, I think is incredibly dangerous in the modern society because, you know, again, evolutionarily, we're living with 150 other people, give or take.

So you're in competition with what, 75-ish people. And today you're in competition with Bill Gates and Elon Musk and Mr. Beast and like every other person that you're finding on Instagram and social who have an exorbitant amount of money and status and shack for size and athletic ability. You know, like there is this very scary.

treadmill that I think a lot of people have gotten on and they cannot possibly live up to the expectations of these massive figures. And so they get into deep, deep depressions.

Srini Rao

Well, I mean, Will Storr wrote this book, Selfie, How We Become So Self-Obsessed and what it's done to us. And I remember him saying, he said that, you know, we have this very toxic narrative that like, if you're not Beyonce or Tim Ferriss or whoever it is, then something is wrong with you. And he said that one, you're not likely to become those people, but even worse than that, it's like not even true. Uh, and yet to your point, like we live in a very status driven society. Cause like, I remember I was telling somebody once I was like, don't ever

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Mm.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Great.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Right.

Srini Rao

judge a person, especially on the internet by their perceived status, because you are going to miss out on some of the greatest opportunities. Like my mentor, Greg, by, by far the most influential person. He's the one who came up with the name, unmistakable creative. Like I wouldn't be where I am without him. When I met him on Twitter, he had 150 followers. It was six weeks into a project. Nobody knew who the hell he was. Um, and had I been willing to discount him based on the perceived social status, I would have missed out on probably the most important relationship in my professional career.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yep, yep, absolutely. And that's a classic case of good decision making that maybe your instincts, you had to go against a little bit there.

Srini Rao

Well, so this makes me wonder about instincts across culture, because you say without a doubt, our biological poles are not experiencing a vacuum, socialization and cultural gender norms are informed by and reinforced by our biological nature. And it just, you know, like, as an Indian American, it always makes me wonder, like, when somebody like you does the work you do, what have you seen as the differences when it comes to instincts across different cultures?

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Oh yeah, for sure.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, so this is the fun part of working on biology and I guess from an evolutionary perspective. Across culture, biologically, they should be the same. Instincts should be the same because this should be a cross-cultural phenomenon. However, as we know, we're not in a vacuum. So the culture itself...

can greatly influence how those instincts show up, how importantly, how much value they're given as they show up. And so we do see this sort of shifting between cultures, but at the baseline, those instincts will be the same. So your instinct to need to achieve, your instinct to have variety, your instinct to fear the other, they are cross-cultural.

Srini Rao

Well, let's talk about sort of how somebody actually improves their instinct and refines it. Like you just this is something that's the result of making a lot of shitty decisions. And then you realize like, okay, great. The other thing is that, you know, I think you can also have sort of a combination of biases that form your instinct. And I'll give you the stupidest one of all which you know, I have shared this before, which is, like, I had three women with small dogs in my life, and they were all awful in one way or another. One was actually

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

perfectly nice. But like, that point forward, I was like, yeah, all women with small dogs are awful. Which I know, for a fact makes absolutely no logical sense, right? My sample size is basically three people. And I remember, I even tried to validate this with Alison Schrager, because she's an economist. And when I told my friend Brian that he said, You're a fucking idiot. He said, you don't even like dogs. He was like, so that's a bullshit theory of yours. And I'm like, Yeah, I'm well aware. But I mean, like, you see the absurdity of that, right? Like, my instinct is one of the small dogs swipe left.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, sure.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yup.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, yeah, and you know that's that

Srini Rao

And I'm aware of that absurdity and I still do that.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

And that's the biggest problem is if you think about the amount of information that our brain is processing, right, we've got 400 billion bits of information coming at us every single second. And so if it is not something that is incredibly important to our brain, it's like, yeah, that in sync that connection, it's fine, whatever. So women with small dogs are terrible, whatever, swipes left. Right? That's, we make these absurd and you've seen it in my book, these, the spurious correlations.

Like these absurd correlations, like women with small dogs, bad. It's not logical, but it's also not hurting us. Or we're not seeing the result of that hurt. You're not, you don't know that you just missed the love of your life because you swiped left on that woman. You'll never know, right? You'll never know. And so that continues to deepen our bias and say, well, that's fine. Like I've been operating like this my whole life and I haven't, I've never been hurt by it.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

And so we create this fallacy that reinforces some of the instincts that we're unaware of. I wish it was a really easy switch, right? To say, oh, well, just step back from it. And once you know, like you do, you just said, like I know that this is an absurd thing that's not real, but because it's not important, you're not gonna spend time to recreate a new pathway. And our brain is like, well, we've got 400 billion other things to process. So let's just move on from that.

So my biggest, I guess, takeaway from the research from this book is, A, you have to be aware. You have to be aware of the instincts. You have to understand, because even as you just said, you're aware and you understand it, that's two steps in. The third step is creating the time and space to actually realign and say, this is worth my time to shift this bias. And what that would mean is you going out.

and spending a day finding every woman you could with a small dog sitting down and having a conversation. Like, that is probably.

Srini Rao

Which sounds like my personal hell.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

And that is probably not worth your time. And this is how conspiracy theories and things line up because we can find people that verify all of our expectations. Small dogs with, I mean, I can tell you right now, I know three women, as soon as you said that, I was like, oh, I know the type. And immediately I'm going, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second, this is gonna be a problem, right? But our brain loves that 100%, 100%. And our brain loves that, because we're like, oh, cool, we're in the same tribe. And we get some social,

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Hahaha!

Srini Rao

Yeah, because you just confirmed what I want to believe.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Um, dopamine from that, like, Oh, I see you and I understand it. And listen, let me tell you, you're right. God, that feels good to you. It feels good to me. And now I've earned this little social slide with you and like, uh, it's, it's a really, really dangerous game. Um, so again, the, how do we, how do we escape it? I think it's, it's a recalibration of our stress response at the very core to understand like, this is not a tiger.

Um, the second piece is reframing a lot of these threats as, as challenges. Like I would challenge you to, to try and prove yourself wrong, to set up this as, as a, as a steel person argument, right. Rather than a straw man argument that you can easily go out and find 10 people that have small bugs that are terrible human beings. I know I can do that instantly. Right. But like, take the opposite perspective. How can you find.

10 people, the next 10 people that you talk to and find the very best qualities in them that also happen to have small dogs. And then the final piece, I think, is actually realizing that we are our own wizards. We're not stuck with the brains that we have, especially in this world of epigenetics. The possibilities to shift not only for our future, but literally in our own individual body, our individual DNA.

we can begin to make changes that show up in behaviors and different pathways in our own brain. And that is both remarkable and terrifying because it becomes such a responsibility for us, right? Like you actually have more control than maybe you want. Yeah, so that's the big takeaway, I guess.

Srini Rao

There's one line in the book that caught my attention and I couldn't help but wonder if this would be the most highlighted or most hated line in the entire book like that would cause the most controversy and that's why I wanted to talk to you about it Because you say as genders go males and females are not equal and at the moment I read that I thought oh my god Like how many people are she pissed off by saying that? We have never been as a collective whole our biology uniquely shaped us to excel in particular arenas and require support and others to be clear That doesn't mean there isn't individual variation

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Mm. Oh, a lot, yeah.

Srini Rao

Talk to me about that because I think that is a perfect example of something that can be wildly misinterpreted.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, I mean, let me give you the example of, we'll go back to basketball. Shaq never, Shaq doesn't have to be good at basketball. He needs to just stand there and catch a ball that's thrown really high and just place it above the rim. There are not women built like that, right? Like, there's no women that are built like that. We're physically, if we just look physically, that's probably the easiest, most obvious difference. Women are built differently from men.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

They're not better, they're not worse, they're different. And so along with that comes different physiology. The stress response is a classic spot to look at this. So men, typically when you're under stress, the typical reactions you have are fight and flight. Women, the typical reaction we have is freeze, freeze and appease, tend in befriend. So what we do is we smile, we try to resolve the conflict and get out peacefully. And...

And those are massive differences between the genders that are just kind of brushed over frequently. We're not built the same at all. Our brains are not built the same. We've got different wiring in our brains where women's brains are more connected. The two hemispheres are more connected. Men's brains, the frontal lobe and the emotional processing lobe in the back are more connected. So we actually can see the exact same thing and process it.

completely differently. Now, again, I'll say there are of course, spectrums, right? And again, it is really hard to separate out biological sex from gender, right? This cultural overlay of, well, you behave that way because you are a woman or because you identify as a woman. That's a really, really difficult thing to tease apart because it would be a very evil, ethically questionable study to...

to take men and raise them as women or vice versa. Yeah, in a completely separate society that is reversed. Maybe like the Barbie movie, I don't know if you saw that recently, but I had some actual, some issues with it, in part because while we've always valued the power that men have, the financial power, the...

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

political power, the leadership power that was sort of exemplified as Barbies are on Mount Rushmore and all of the things. I think we've ignored the power of the feminine, the ability to connect, the deep emotional processing, the introspection that are the vulnerabilities that are hallmarks of female power. And again, not that men can't have that, not that women can't have the other, but if we're only cheerleading.

in one direction, it becomes a problem for society.

Srini Rao

Yeah Well, let's talk about what you call the abundance paradox because you say that when you're trapped in a hedonistic cycle of looking for Evergreen or pastors you're in a no-win situation known as the abundance paradox in the modern world Where the possibility of a new or better job a home or mate is just one click away We're swiping our swelves right into unhappiness funny. That's the line given up Yeah, well

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Okay.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, right now it's like swipe, swipe. Yeah.

Srini Rao

So it got me thinking about a couple of conversations I've had, like, meet Brian Holliday here and, you know, like, unless you've been on the moon at this point, everybody knows who Ryan Holliday is if you write nonfiction books. And, you know, I mean, he's kind of the gold standard for what any of us could accomplish as nonfiction authors. And the thing that he said to me that really struck me was that he said, you know, on the aggregate, this is good because it drives a lot of achievement. And if nobody, you know,

like nobody, if everybody wanted to just stay centered or nobody would run for president, the problem is, he said, then we start to believe that our happiness is just on the other side of this thing. And so he said, you would think that I wake up every day and, you know, I have the dream job, which I do, like, I get to write books that I've wanted to write. And, you know, I've gotten to do work that anybody would kill to do. And the truth is that we don't do that, because you always think it's the next thing, like, it's going to be the home run or the, you know, like Grand Slam in a World Series.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

That's right.

Srini Rao

And I'm sure that you can relate to this as a nonfiction author. Like obviously we all want our books to sell well. We want to reach a lot of people. And at the same time, like we also have to make our peace with the fact that guess what, we're probably not going to be Ryan Holiday because we weren't mentored by Robert Green.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

That's right. That's right. And so often I think it's the haves over the ones, right? Like, and I need to credit the right person with this and I'm blanking on his name right now. Harvard professor, just wrote a book on how to happy.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Um, but the, the idea of being basically instead of chasing more haves, which is that hedonic treadmill of like, I need more, I need more, I need more. I've got to have this, I got to have the next best seller. Um, you know, I got to live the life of Ryan Holiday. I've got to look like Julia Roberts, like all of those haves. Um, you can do that for a long time and you're going to stay chasing on that treadmill. Um, but if you're willing to decrease your wants because it haves divided by wants.

If you can work on decreasing your wants, that is actually more apropos to getting towards real happiness. But it's not how our instincts are set up. Because our instincts are like, we live in a sparse, scarce world. You gotta grab all the things that you can right now. And my God, if you're not chasing to be your very, very best at all times, you're gonna get outpaced and you're probably not gonna get any mates and then you're gonna die alone and you were a biological failure. Are you like that is?

like a lot of weight that you're carrying around from the start. Um, and I think just even the recognition that your brain is set up to believe that you are a biological failure and less, unless you're on that treadmill and you're chasing, uh, is a, is a really, really important recognition, uh, so that you can begin to step back and say, wait a second. What does that mean? Um, if I achieve this.

Because at the end of the day, you know, Alexander the Great, what was his name?

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

I mean, if you're anything like me, you're like, Alexander, I mean, he did some things. The great. At the end of the day, even the very best, the highest achievers, I've accomplished all the things, you die. And that's part of the beauty of biology is you die and eventually nobody will remember your name. So if we can fear a little bit less in these moments, I think we actually get more back by...

being kinder, being more present to the everyday. And, and yeah, listen, strive for those achievements, but those can't be the things that define you. Because I promise you, there is no achievement, there is no book, there is no award that you will win that will make you feel like you're enough. Like some of the most oppressed people are Olympians standing there with the gold medal. I promise you.

because they're like, well, shit, now what? This isn't how it's supposed to feel. Like it's supposed to feel like I'm good enough now. And that's simply not how we earn it.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, you know, related to that, you say the secret to well-being has never been the excess accumulation of resources, homes, race, car, sexual partners, but rather well-being comes with cooperative reciprocity. In other words, happiness can be found in a community of like-minded grows. And the reason that struck me is I wonder how you pair that and how something like that mindset can coexist in a consumer driven economy in which we have to consume for the economy to sustain itself.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

like if everybody suddenly is like, you know, well, okay, so this is this is a debate that I've had with people. Yeah, I've had this. And that's why I wanted to bring it up with you because like when I read that, I'm like, okay, so how do those two things coexist? Because, you know, people have to buy our product. Like, for example, I need advertisers to advertise on my show and people to buy my courses in order to have a business. And you know, like I, yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Do we? I mean, that's the question. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Sure. So let me question that. Let me question that right there. Do you need a business? For what purpose do you need a business?

Srini Rao

well, I mean to put food, well, to have to be able to pay my rent and earn a living.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Right, right. So what if you partnered with, and this sounds, listen, I can take this really far. You know the road I'm going down, right? Like what if you partnered with the bread maker and you did a trade where like, you know, we have this economy that we've built up and now, oh man, we can go on to discuss AI and all of the jobs. We are working. Yeah. I mean, and I'm not suggesting that that's ideal either.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

basically like a Burning Man-esque world.

Srini Rao

Sure.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

But we have created an excess of time, believe it or not. I know all of us are running around feeling like chickens with our heads cut off. There's not enough time in the day and oh my God. We are so freaking productive. Look back 50 years, 50 years, and you will see this massive amount of free time, of leisure time that we literally do not have. And we're working twice as hard.

we're soaring in productivity, we don't have to work this hard. In fact, I would make the argument that we should not work this hard and that our lives would not only be better, our world would be better, our culture will be better, our kids would be better. We would be healthier if we scaled back that production and, um, and relied more on cooperative, cooperative cohorts. Um, and, and I, I don't mean to push it all the way to a communist society or, you know, burning man, like.

we're all gonna be hippies and dance around like the campfire all day. I don't think that's it either. But recognizing that these drivers in us actually aren't leading to a better society and at some point it breaks. I think that is super, super important.

Srini Rao

Well, I think that like it's funny because in The Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith said that self-interest is the engine of prosperity. And I think we've taken that to the point of diminishing returns.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

I agree, I don't think he was around to see AI taking over jobs. This is a new world.

Srini Rao

Yeah, well, it's funny, right? Because like, I get annoyed when AI doesn't work faster, it doesn't give me the response. And like, I remember thinking back to, you know, conversation I had with Sasha Hines. And she was like, you know, people bitch about being like having a flight delayed. And she was like, Can you imagine if Lewis and Clark could get from where they were at to where they needed to go on a flight? They wouldn't be. Yeah, like as anybody who plays Oregon Trail remembers.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Right.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

Yeah, your whole family died of dysentery. You know? Yeah. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I mean, we have this abundance of riches and it is up to us to really update our brains to recognize that so that we aren't just spoiled by it and running ever faster, ever harder and staying sad and lonely and burning ourselves out.

Srini Rao

Well, I have two final questions. I have a one year old nephew, he'd just turned one last week. And so I'm always curious about sort of learning what is going on in his world through the lens of social science. Like, what do we know about kids at his age and instinct? Because the things that I've seen in him have been, at times they're inspiring, at times they scare the shit out of me and my family because he seems to have no fear, he doesn't seem to understand gravity, which we've all had to like.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

Srini Rao

discover as we try to keep him from jumping off a bed. But it's like he doesn't have a care or worry in the world. And everything is interesting. It's so beautiful because like the mundane becomes magical when you see it through his eyes. So I wonder, what is it's the most beautiful thing? Like all the things that I just look around the house, I'm like, this is so annoying. And he's just like, so delighted by it. So what is happening instinct wise?

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

What a gift.

What a gift. That's, oh, isn't that it?

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, yeah. Becoming childlike.

Srini Rao

Yeah, what is going on in terms of instinct at that age? Like, how does somebody like, so how do his instincts develop?

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, I mean, his instincts develop by playing. And we lose that over time. We develop the fears because we're like, wow, this has actual consequences. It is really, it's a parent's job to keep a kid alive. That's it, that's it. All you're doing is keeping them alive, you know, from zero to 12 at least. That's the only job, that's the sole purpose. And children play and they're innately curious. This is one of my favorite things about our brain is that curiosity and fear.

Srini Rao

No.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

cannot coexist because for 200,000 plus years, nobody ever looked at a tiger charging them and was like, huh, I wonder how fast it's coming. Right, we don't get curious in moments of fear, but kids don't have these built in fears that are confirmed for them yet. So they're testing things like, oh, will this hurt? And those instincts, don't get me wrong, those instincts are present, but they're willing to be curious about the instincts. Whereas as adults,

Srini Rao (01:00:16.082)

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

We've kind of shut down, we're like, oh, I've learned that once. I know that small dogs and girls that own small dogs are terrible human beings, I've learned that. Like, I don't need to be curious anymore, it's not worth my time. And for kids, all they've got is time and play. And one of the cures, I think, for overriding our instincts is to get curious again, to be more childlike.

Srini Rao

I'm gonna go get some water.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I mean, I've noticed with him that there are a couple of things like one is he'll take risks, but he's also learning how to be calculated. Like he's just learned how to stand up and he's trying to walk. And he knows if he falls, it's gonna hurt. So he's like, okay, he's like, I know how to sit down. So he's very careful about how he falls, like he makes sure that he falls on his butt. But the other thing is, he just started talking and he started saying hi, and my sister took him to Target. And he literally said hi to every single person there. And I was like,

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Mmm, yeah. Haha. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah! Isn't that cool?

Srini Rao

That is so amazing. I was like, man, I'm like, you really have no social fears. Like in your world. It's like, everybody wants to talk to me. And of course, everybody wants to talk to you because you're adorable.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah. But like, what a shame that changes. Can you imagine if you just walked around and like, here's, here's my challenge to you and all of the listeners, go to Target today and say hi to every single person. See what happens.

Srini Rao

Yeah, it really is.

Srini Rao

It got me thinking I literally after my sister told me that I wrote down an idea for a book titled The Power of Hello. By just simply saying that one thing you open like that is one thing I went from was like, wow, I'm like you are like he's super charismatic for a one year old. It's really amazing to watch. But like that just struck me so much. I was like, wow, I'm like, we're not like that. We don't say hi to anybody when we're walking down the street.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

I love that.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah. Ha ha ha.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'd say the technology has made that worse, right? Because we're no longer bored. So we're no longer looking to engage with other people. In fact, the thing that our brains automatically go to is, well, this could be bad. This could be bad. Well, what if it's not? What if it's good? What if you meet? Listen, I met my husband on an airplane because he boldly sat down beside me and asked me out to dinner. Like on an airplane.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

You just never know. So staying open and curious, I think, is a gift that we should learn from kids. I think that's a really great, great challenge.

Srini Rao

Well, I think that makes a beautiful place to finish our conversation. I have one final question for you, which is how we finish up all of our conversations at the unmistakable creative. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

Hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

I think their ability to be completely authentic with who they are. And I say that and I know that sounds like a little bit of a canned response, but I truly believe the hardest work that you will ever do is to become yourself. Because it is such an unpacking of the instincts and the cultural programming and all of the unlearning that we have to do to say, wait, is that me?

I think when you come across the people that have done the work to say, oh yeah, that's me, they show up absolutely unmistakable.

Srini Rao

beautiful. Well, this has been incredible. I feel like I could talk to you all day.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

I'm like, I'm really sad. I'm late for another podcast and I'm disappointed now because I want to keep talking about it. So yeah, this has been a delight. Thank you.

Srini Rao

Yeah, all good. Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story, your wisdom and your insights with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you, your work, your book and everything else that you're up to?

Dr. Rebecca Heiss

I mean, the easiest place to go is just to my website, rebeccaheiss.com. I'm on all the socials. You can feel free to reach out to me. It's Dr. Rebecca Heiss on Instagram and Facebook and all the things. Yeah, please don't be a stranger. Reach out. Say hi. Say hello.

Srini Rao

Beautiful and for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.