March 20, 2023

Ross Symons | Exploring The Power of Creative Constraints Through Origami

Ross Symons | Exploring The Power of Creative Constraints Through Origami

Ross Symons shares his journey of leaving his 9-to-5 job as a web developer to pursue his passion for origami and how he turned his hobby into a successful business.

In this podcast episode, we sit down with Ross Symons, the founder of the White on Rice origami brand, to explore the power of creative constraints through the art of origami. Ross shares his journey of leaving his 9-to-5 job as a web developer to pursue his passion for origami and how he turned his hobby into a successful business. Through his story, we learn how embracing limitations can lead to incredible innovation and creativity.

Subscribe for ad-free interviews and bonus episodes


Hosted on Acast. See for more information.

Maximize Your Output With Mem 

The knowledge generation course for coaches, consultants, content creators, and small business owners who want to access and use their knowledge to create content, build a body of work, and grow their business. Enrollment for October Cohort is Now Open. 

Click Here to Learn More



Ross: Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

Srini: Absolutely. So, Ross, I'd love to start off by asking what inspired you to get into the work that you do.

Ross Symons: Yeah. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

Srini: Yeah, it's my pleasure to have you here. I found out about you through your publicist who told me you had basically made a career out of origami. Nine years ago, Simon Sinek once told me my "why" was that I was obsessed with people who were good at unusual things, which I thought sounded nonsensical at the time.

And then when I looked back at all the people we've interviewed, I thought, "Yeah, that makes complete sense." When I saw your pitch, I thought to myself, "Yep, this is somebody who is very good at something very unusual and made a career out of it." But before we get into all of that, I wanted to start by asking you where you were born and raised and what impact that has had on what you've ended up doing with your life and work.

Ross Symons: Two very separate answers, I think, there. But I'm from South Africa. I was born in South Africa and grew up in Johannesburg, which is one of the biggest cities in South Africa itself. And in 2010 I moved, studied, did a whole bunch of things up in Johannesburg, and in 2010 I moved on to Cape Town and that's where I live at the moment.

And I guess growing up I was just a dude doing his thing and trying to work out who he is. And then origami just rocked up randomly. It's not, I would love to say that I had this idea to one day become this paper artist or whatever, but it's not - I've done so many things in my life.

It was just a piece of paper that I had in front of me and my brother asked me to learn how to fold an origami crane, which is like the standard origami piece that people learn when they're starting out. I did that in 2002 and yeah, just haven't really stopped since.

Srini: There are a couple of things I wonder about, particularly being raised in South Africa because I think I've had one or two South African guests and I'm not sure how old you are, but I'm curious if you grew up post-apartheid.

Ross Symons: I'm 40 years old, so I was born in apartheid, but it was I was still young enough for it to not have, I'd say, not affected me. It's just I was too young to really understand what was going on. I was, I guess, in 1994 when it was abolished and the whole structure of South Africa, I guess, changed. It was the beginning of the change for the better. I was, I guess, 12 years old only then did I realize okay, there was something different going on here that I didn't realize. And then later on, going into my teens and especially in my twenties, it became quite apparent that what had happened in this country many years ago was just...yeah. And just not cool at all. And being a white South African male, it's, it was it's difficult to admit that, you were stereotypically part of that, although you didn't have a clue. As I say, part of it, I, was just a kid growing up in, this place where I was completely oblivious to what was going on and I couldn't really have done anything about it when I was younger, but I grew up in a family that was very accepting

Srini: Yeah. Did you have any friends who weren't white when you were growing up, like during the apartheid period?

Ross Symons: I'll tell you a very interesting story. So there's a very famous big sport in this country is rugby, which is I guess like your American football and the very first person of color I'll never forget this day, I was standing in, I was going into grade six and it had just been, the change of the whole kind of climate. And it was now the schools were accepting people of color and kids across the board said it wasn't really a thing anymore. Not like we got told, okay, look, there's gonna be people that are a little bit different. It just happened. And I remember standing at the back of the queue going into my first class, and there was this guy who introduced himself to me. His name was Brian Aana and Brian Aana was a colored guy from one of the sorts of suburbs in Johannesburg. And he was the first friend I made that was part of that whole, me making friends with someone that wasn't a white person. And he and I stayed friends for years and he became like a very famous rugby player. But that was my first interaction or my first yeah, I, yeah. Interaction with someone of color at. and it's not like I was like, oh I

Srini: Give us a glimpse of what Apartheid was like for people who have only seen it probably through media or heard about it in books or seen movies like Invictus. What was day-to-day life like during Apartheid?

Ross Symons: For me, as I said, I was very young. I can't say I really know, only from the media, again, from what we've been shown and stories I've heard. And just the way, I guess the way people react, 'cause it wasn't just, it wasn't this change in, okay, we are now all supposed to integrate and you, you have all these, we are referred to as the Rainbow Nation, so we have multiple, I think we have 11 official languages and that comes with different cultural differences.

And, you can't just throw that number of cultures into the same place and expect everybody to get along. It's, it just doesn't.

So I guess growing up it wasn't very apparent that these things were going on, but, as, as I got older and I started noticing, okay, clearly it was a big deal and you could see that. As a child, I was quite aware of what was going on. I could see when, when the mood in the room changed. I'm a sensitive, creative person, so I'm just aware of what's going on around me. I'd noticed that certain adults of color would

Srini: Yeah. Is South Africa polarized in the same way? The United States is, here in the US slavery ended well over a hundred years ago, but we still have plenty of racism and our country is probably more polarized than it's ever been. And yet you have got this just melting pot of cultures. I know this because South Africa has tons of Indians as well - some of whom have been our podcast guests and I've had family members who've worked in South Africa and lived there. Is the political landscape as polarized as it is here?

Ross Symons: Oh man, I wanna say no, but it's again, I think it's gonna take a long time for the cultures to blend. I think in certain areas, I think in the bigger cities everyone's getting on and, or at least trying to get on. And it's not this whole attitude of, "we need to get on now and we need to be friends" because that's, I guess what everybody wants, and everybody wants to get on, but it comes down to education. It comes down to, and then, I guess the new the younger generation or the people that are younger now don't even really see it. They're going to schools where there are people from all over the place. And I think parents are very conscious of the fact that, if you're pointing at it, if you're saying this person is a different color to you, they have a different attitude towards culture and different beliefs; if you keep pointing out the differences, there are always gonna be differences. And there will always be some form of segregation in the person's mind. So I think a lot of the people that I speak to are very conscious of it. And that's on a sort of very micro level, but on a macro level

Srini: Yeah. Speaking of education, what was the narrative around your household about making your way in the world? Because I don't think origami artist is on the list of potential career paths for anybody.

Ross Symons: Right at the bottom of the list. Ah, man. I'm still trying to work out how it all happened. I don't think I, didn't do very well at school. I think I had some form of ADHD or concentration issues or, I don't know. I wasn't really diagnosed with it, but everything that everyone else was doing and everything that everyone else thought they were supposed to be doing and were doing, I just, I couldn't understand and I couldn't just blend in. I was a different kid. I was always telling weird jokes. I had a computer in front of me since I was six or seven years old, so I found, I guess some sort of comfort in that because I was just feeding the computer information and I was getting what I wanted back from it. But dealing with people was different. But growing up, my parents just I guess if I was into making music, which I loved. I played guitar for many years. Or sitting in front of the computer for hours at a time, whatever. Anything that I was interested in, my parents always supported, and there was no until the one day I wanted to go to film school. That was, my

Srini: Yeah. Do you know that instinct to create you mentioned that, when you had a computer, your sort of instinct was, what can I make with this? And that's funny because you and I share that. Anytime I see new technology, my first thought is, what can I make using this?

Ross Symons: Yeah, exactly. It's really hard to find the right balance in this situation.

Srini: Then thinking, how could I commercialize this in some way?

Srini: Talk to me about origami in particular, because it's such an unusual art form. As I said, that's what intrigued me. I thought, okay, here's somebody who's good at something somewhat unusual. I would never have imagined somebody could make a career out of it. But it is just, the process of making origami things is something very detailed.

There's something about it that seems almost meditative. Describe that process to me. Like you have this piece of paper and then you turn it into something. Obviously the crane, I think, is the first thing that any of us sees. I think, the only thing I ever managed to successfully make was a cube.

Ross Symons: Yeah, that's pretty advanced. Actually, I guess a paper jet is where a lot of people start, and you don't really consider that origami, but essentially it is. Ri means to fold and gari or Kami comes from the Japanese word, which means paper. And essentially it is taking a piece of paper, generally a square sheet. Usually, the size doesn't matter, but generally origami sheets are I guess, 15 by 15 centimeters or six inches by six inches. Just use folds, no glue, and no scissors. Although some people do use scissors, that's a completely different art form. Essentially using the folding techniques, different techniques that you can apply and learn, which can be applied to many other things. Anything that can fold, essentially. And then knowing design and I guess the process of it, you can pretty much fold or create anything that you allow your mind to come up with. And yes, meditative, absolutely. I also see it for me, I love and adore puzzles. I really do. And like whether it's a Rubik's cube or a riddle or a game where I have to solve whatever it is, it's, I think I realized lately that origami is that thing

Ross Symons: Oh man, I think the first creative piece that I ever created, I must have been, I don't know, seven or eight years old. And I wrote a little story on, it was I don't even know what the program was. It was, what they would refer to as a word processing program on an IBM, I think it was an XT computer with a black and green screen before it was colored screens.

And I remember sitting there typing out, it was a little story and my mom printed it out on, we had one of those old school dot matrix printers with the printer paper, the holes on the side that used to make horrible noises. I remember her printing this out and she kept it for years. Actually, I would love to know if she still has it but I remember creating that, it was a short little story about a cowboy, something had a horse, and I don't remember what the story was, but I remember creating that and thinking, 'I made this thing.' And, I guess that fascination or that interest in using, as you say, a piece of technology or whatever technology I had around me be it a keyboard, a music keyboard, or a guitar or some

Srini: Yeah. What does practice look like for somebody who is an ami artist? What does the process of getting better at this look like? Because I think, most of us see this. I saw the things on your Instagram and I thought, so how in the heck is any of this possible with a piece of paper?

Ross Symons: Yeah, I still look at that stuff sometimes. I'm like, wow, how does that even happen? But I guess the process, it's just I guess it's like anything, you learn the basics. You learn from the masters you see what's possible in terms of you've got larger pieces of paper that can form, much more intricate designs.

But then you start with the stuff that I guess makes sense to you, the designs and the artists that you can see are a little bit easier for you to imitate. And once you get good at imitating what they do. Then you slowly start adjusting things and taking references from, oh, I like what he did with the shape of this origami dog's body.

I know how to get that technique, but how do I turn that origami dog into an origami dragon, for example, I need to add wings. I need to, a lot of the time it's getting something that's already pretty close to it because you have, I don't wanna get too technical with the whole process of it, but you start with the square and then you fold that square into what you refer to as the base and the base

Srini: So even when you do things as complex as making an origami hummer, is that all done with just one piece of paper?

Ross Symons: Yeah, yeah. The, are you referring to the Hummer that you saw on Instagram? Yeah. So that we'll get into, that's not actually origami. That's a whole AI mixture of origami. Yeah. But essentially those designs that you saw are definitely possible. So how you would start that is, you'd basically just, it wouldn't, essentially, that would be a different process entirely because it's, a lot more geometric, it's a lot more and a bit more solid.

So maybe taking something that looks like a car. There must be at least 10 to 50 designs of origami cars taking that design. And then, okay, cool. How do I expand out? How do I get the wheels? How do I make the wheels fatter? How do I, extend the body? How do I make doors all possible and all possible from one single sheet of paper?

If you don't believe what I'm saying, you can do yourself a favor by going and seeing some of the stuff people have made from single sheets of paper. It's still, I see some of it and it blows my mind because I know that it's possible because I've done things like that

Srini: Yeah. As I'm listening to you describe this process, it sounds to me like the entire process is an exercise in thinking within constraints.

Ross Symons: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, and it's, I've been thinking a lot about the constraints of origami. And I think that for me, that is the kind of creative that I am--someone who can look around and be like, okay, cool, we've only got that, and that, and I've applied that to all walks of my life. But how do I take an idea and execute it? What do I have in front of me and how do I get to where I need to go by using the tools that I currently have? And that has served me really well because I can get, as a creator, as a content creator, I need to get stuff out quickly. I need to be able to conceptualize, shoot, animate, design, and origami, make sure the client's happy with it, send it to do a storyboard, and all those things. It's I'm limited to, okay, I can only design from a square sheet of paper. This is the corporate ID or this is the brand's messaging. I need to fold a dragon. These are the colors, this is the shape. And, that's what I'm limited to. And I, I cannot veer

Srini: Yeah. I think there is something beautiful about having constraints around whatever you're doing because then you are forced to work within them. And I think that forces you to think in different ways. So I wonder, how has this idea of having constraints impacted your thinking in other parts of your life? Like when it comes to your business, the work you do, and everything else?

Ross Symons: Yeah, so I, I think. Knowing that I've been able to it's still, it. It took me a while to realize, okay, cool, I can do this thing that not too many other people can do and then I started thinking about what I didn't allow myself to do. One of the things I didn't allow myself to do was doubt myself. I just felt, okay, cool. I'm gonna try and attempt to do this thing. I'm not gonna let what other people think or what other people tell me. I'm just gonna create something and put it out there. And in doing that whole process of creating, putting it out there, getting feedback that feedback was something that just became very valuable because especially with creating content that you're putting out online, you're only as good as your last post. People only remember you for the last post you created. But for me, it, and became a big deal. It was like, I need to create the next thing that's gonna, that's gonna make an impact or go viral or whatever the case is. But as soon as I dialed back and I was just like, look, let me just focus on what I'm trying to

Ross Symons: Yeah, exactly. And I think that for someone who, you know, I clearly think similarly to me in that regard it's kinda like you've got these new tools and it's just fun to create and make and see where it goes. And it's, I think you have to be quite childlike in your approach because you're kinda like, wow, it's new, it's fun. Let's just play with it. Let's just see what happens. 'Cause, no one really knows what it is Even the creators of these tools don't know what they're creating. Stuff. And these, these monster ways and methods of creating things so quickly. Why are we doing it? Is it to, is it just because we need to create, or is there some sort of which a lot of people do think it's oh, it's sinister, we are, it's gonna control everything and people are gonna lose their jobs and whatever. But in the same way that the camera did, it get rid of many jobs. I don't know. They were like it's just about adjusting. It's about learning and understanding what these tools can do, applying them, and putting them into your workflow and process.

Srini: Yeah. Oh yeah. I have been baffled by all the sorts of fun things I could do. And this is one I haven't actually published yet, but my nephew, who was like three or four months old, every day I would sing nineties hip-hop songs to him. And the song that made him laugh the most was Fresh Prince of Bel Air. Just for shits and giggles, I put the lyrics from the original song into GPT-3 and I was like, "Rewrite this as a song about a baby going to daycare because he was starting daycare when my sister was going back to work." And so it spat out a song called "The Fresh Prince of Daycare", and I was like, "You know what? If I had a, I looked at these lyrics, I was like, I'm gonna hire a freelance rapper to actually record this song for me."

And I did. And my sister was like, "This is amazing." And I was like, "Yeah, amazing what forty bucks and a bit of AI can do." It's this really cool idea of human-AI collaboration. I think when you combine human creativity with the capabilities of AI, you

Srini: No, let's talk about AI because I think that, that was one thing that caught my attention when I looked at your Instagram feed was your sort of use of AI to aid you in origami, which, I would've never made the connection between those two things. And it's been a really interesting exploration of all the things that are possible. I think to me, the thing that is just beyond brilliant is the fact that your technical knowledge is ceasing to be a limitation and your ability to express yourself creatively.

Srini: I'll show it to you after we.

Ross Symons: It's insane!

Ross Symons: Yeah, exactly. And that's, but yeah I just wanted to jump in there. The fact that you've done that whole process is it's amazing. It's and that is what people need to realize, that you don't need to have, even more so now, you don't have to have that many skills. You just have to have an idea and some sort of willingness to like let's see if we can create, a brand new the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air rap song and use this tech. And I think the people that are having fun with it like you and I are, and many others are doing the same. Though it, it's us that are, hopefully showing the rest of the people that are a little bit apprehensive and a little bit like, "whoa, not so sure about this" it can be fun and yes, is it gonna replace jobs? Absolutely. Is it gonna, is it gonna disrupt things? Yes. That's why these, that's we need that. We need disruption because otherwise, what are we here for? We're just gonna hang around and do the same thing and post pictures of origami and write books about the same thing. It's it has to

Srini: So yeah, I, that, that's one thing that caught my attention. Cuz I know that these are some of your latest posts. Like how have you been using it in your own process? I saw that you had done that time-lapse video where you converted videos into still images, and then you turned it into a time-lapse animation.

Ross Symons: Yeah. So again, these, I think because it's still quite new and I think the general public is it's all about chatbot T at the moment. So all these other tools which are, voice synthesizers and music makers and image text to image generators and video to video generators, it's still very new and fresh for people.

So what I'm trying to do is just see how I can apply it to what I've already done being origami and stop-frame animation how do I create something a little bit different and how do I speed that process up? And for me, it's just idea generation is just, it happens in a tenth of the time that I would usually take storyboarding, if I need to send an animation idea or a concept to a client, a quick chat over email.

Cool. So that piece of paper's gonna slide in here and then this is gonna happen. I actually posted something about it on Instagram. It's this is how I would do the story of an origami fox, and he's traveling through, I found something on Chatty p. told a little story and I was able to put a storyboard together in under an

Srini: Oh no!

Ross Symons: For me, it's been a long journey, but well worth it.

Srini: Yeah, go ahead.

Ross Symons: How am I doing?

Srini: Yeah, I definitely agree.

Ross Symons: That's how I'm using it. And, sorry, I think yeah, going forward I j I just I'm just trying to show people as much as possible how you can use these tools because people are scared. I'm speaking to a lot of people and they're like, "You're feeding the enemy. You're teaching this machine how to do all this stuff and it's gonna eat us up". I'm like, "You need to relax. You need to just learn how to use it and try and move forward with your life".

Srini: Yeah, no I have turned podcast transcripts into comic strips using these tools. I think the key observation that you made was using these tools and applying them to the things that you're already doing is really where it comes down to. What it comes down to, I think people don't realize because to your point ultimately the most valuable thing any creator does is spend time creating, but for the final product, there's almost always all this ancillary work that needs to get done.

Writing a book is a perfect example of this, right? You need editing, you need proofreading. But really what counts is the writing, and this really frees you up to focus on the thing that produces the most value, which is the writing.

Ross Symons: Exactly. And people just don't, for some reason, they don't get it. It's, I don't know, look, it's like I said, there's gonna be resistance. There's always gonna be resistance, but the sooner it be, be it a creative person, or even if you're a lawyer or a mathematician or a coder, I've written pieces of code. I, if I want to, I literally created a webpage, which was I interact GPTI. I just wanted to see how quickly it could generate something that, in my previous life, I know would've taken me the good part of half a day. I wanted to see, cool. How quickly can this generator, like, cool, create a web page? Which is a single-page website with a home, about, contact section, and a divider with links at the top, and it needs to be in a specific CSS style and all blah, blah. Go. And it spits that thing out in under 30 seconds. I copied it and just to test it, I copied the whole thing, plugged it into a text editor, loaded the website up onto a browser, and it was flawless. And I was just

Srini: Yeah. No, it's really I think, at first people do very goofy things. I remember when I first saw Dolly, I just started, putting in really stupid prompts to see what it came up with. And it wasn't until I started thinking, "Wait a minute, I could actually incorporate this into my blog posts and have illustrations to go along with it in my articles."

That's when everything changed when I started to actually see practical uses for it. And more and more I just started documenting each of my practical use cases. And even, in this book, the Artificially Intelligent Creative, I literally was using my note-taking app Mem, which has an AI feature called Smart Write and Edit.

And just, as an experiment, I was like, "Write a synopsis for a book called The Artificially Intelligent Creative." And it did, and I just had that note sitting there in my notes for probably a good three weeks. Then one afternoon I opened up the note and I was like, "Write a table of contents for this book."

And I think that was about a week and a half ago, and I'm almost finished writing the entire.

Ross Symons: Oh, hi there! How are you doing today?

Srini: Because I had so many notes on AI that I had taken, and it utilizes my own notes so it doesn't sound like something that was written by a machine.

Ross Symons: Yeah. Exactly. As a matter of interest, what is, or who is, the book aimed at? Is this just something that you want to get out there, or do you have a specific audience in mind?

Srini: I think that what I want to aim for really is creating something that creative people can use AI to enhance their creative process and to create things they couldn't before. Because for example, as a podcaster, I've created probably a thousand episodes, and the ability to repurpose that content at scale in different formats, I think was what really was the big appeal to me because I thought, "Wait a minute, I could take all these and I can create animations. I can create comic strips because we did an animated series about five years back with Soul Pancake, Rainn Wilson's company, and at that time it was prohibitively expensive to do animation and incredibly time-consuming.

Now, to your point, I can take a transcript and put it into a tool like GPT-2 and say, "Okay, split this up into scenes for an animation with captions and suggested illustrations." Even for the "Fresh Prince of Daycare" video, I literally had it give me what all the scene transitions should be based on the lyrics.

Ross Symons: Amazing. Yeah, and it breaks it down into cool two-second, and three-second intervals, then

Srini: Totally. You can get as detailed or as granular as you want. That's the beautiful thing.

Ross Symons: Yeah, exactly. And yeah. Again, my mind just races thinking about what you can do all this.

Srini: No, I think that's the thing that people don't realize—the potential is limitless here.

Ross Symons: Yeah, exactly. I've got another question for you. If you were in my situation—someone who's, I think there's a lot of people in when I say my situation, someone who started early on Instagram, who built up a bit of a following in a very niche-specific thing—and wanted to create or wanted to start a podcast of their own, what advice would you have for that person?

Srini: I think that the one thing to focus on specifically is a niche which I think you have nailed. I wouldn't do interviews, actually, because I think the interview format is saturated, and I think if you were going to do interviews, I would bring a different spin to it. Like I've always wanted to do an interview-style show, and I've mentioned this before, where instead of interviewing the person, I would tell a person's story by interviewing people who knew them.

Srini: I was like, I don't have the editing skills for this, but I realized now that I have my amazing audio engineer, I could probably come to him with this. Another idea that I'm toying around with in terms of podcasts is I want to do a show called How They Met Each Other, which is all about couples meeting each other. And I already have a pilot kind of scripted and ready to go, which we might drop in a couple of weeks just as a test run. Cuz I know starting another podcast was never high on my list of priorities, but that was one podcast that I was like, you know what, this would actually be a lot of fun. And so I think I would go away from the standard formats that you see and try to bring something very unusual to it, like just a different spin on anything out there.

Srini: Yep.

Ross Symons: That's a great idea.

Ross Symons: Not taking anything away from him, his story's amazing. But it's it gets old and that's why shows like Hot Ones or even the Joe Rogan Show, although that's not a podcast, provide something else. Going into the nitty gritty, although that's a very long format, you don't really have the specific question: "Okay, so what? How did you get inspired? Or what is your process like?" That definitely comes up. So yeah, that was just a very specific question I had.

Srini: Yeah. At the end of the day, I think that this is the thing that a lot of people miss I've said this before, audio is an entertainment medium first and an educational medium second, and people miss that. This is why you can't just take, 10 tips on how to grow your Facebook following and turn that into a mind-numbing podcast.

Ross Symons: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And the number of PDFs and links on how to do all that are a dime a dozen. But also, like speaking about just the, I guess industry that you're in, like being a podcaster or a podcast is entertainment first, and then education. I've recently come to realize that I thought, I was an artist. I thought I was this person creating stuff. And yeah, I'm an artist I'm creative and doing the thing, but I've realized I'm in entertainment.

I create little videos that I want people to sit and watch over and over again so that they feel something so that they may be educated in some way. With the AI stuff, that's what I've been doing. And I think once you realize what industry you're in, because a lot of people, I heard this a while ago, a lot of people don't know what industry they're in and they don't really understand that oh, yes, okay, I'm a designer, but you actually are an educator. Or you're an author, but you're actually a researcher, whatever the case is.

And I think once you, and I think that

Ross Symons: Yeah, that's some good advice. Yeah. I just think I was just thinking you could create an ebook or something like that, using all the AI tools available, to tell a little story on how to teach creatives or content creators how to start a podcast. Anyway, it's just me throwing ideas around, but I really wanted to ask you that question, and that was some yeah. The fact that you said don't just do interviews because you're right. It's you do get valuable information from people and you do hear their stories, but you can listen to one or two podcasts of somebody. I think I've listened to Jamie Fox being interviewed on more than one platform - the story's the same.

Srini: Amazing. This has been fascinating. I have one final question for you, which is how do we finish all of our interviews at the end? Take creative. What do you think it is to make somebody or something unmistakable?

Ross Symons: Did I think about this to myself, it's someone that's taken the time to create something that is unique. And unique doesn't necessarily mean good or bad, it just means it. They have tried to create something that is different. They've looked at everything around them and they're like, you know what? I'm just gonna go and try and do this thing. Even if the public says, listen, that was absolutely horrible. Some people are gonna like it, some people are not. So it's, for me, something unique. When I see something unique, even if it's weird, there's, I get sent posts all the time about like why is this person doing it. But if it makes you feel something or it makes you think a little bit, then it's unmistakably like that person that has taken the time and effort to do that thing. And for me, that's pretty much what.

Srini: Yeah, amazing. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story and your wisdom with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you, your work, and everything that you're up to?

Ross Symons: Cool. Thank you, man. I really appreciate you having me on. Yeah. So my name is Ross Symons and you can find me on Instagram. My Instagram handle is @WhiteonRice. That's the brand that I have. That's where I respond to all my messages, my DMs, and as many messages as possible. So if you want to chat, if you want to talk creativity, AI, AR/MR, or anything, just hit me up.

Srini: Amazing. And for everyone listening, we will wrap the show with that.