Scott Shigeoka | How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World

Srini Rao

Scott, welcome to the unmistakable creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Scott Shigeoka

Thanks, so happy to be on the show. Appreciate it.

Srini Rao

I am beyond thrilled to have you here. You have a new book out called, Seek How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World. And considering I have built this entire podcast based on nothing but personal curiosity, I knew I wanted to talk to you. Before we get into the book, one of the things I got from reading the book was, it seemed like your father played a really integral role in your life. And I wanted to start by asking you, what is one of the most important things you learned from your dad that influenced and shaped who you've become and what you've ended up doing both.

Scott Shigeoka

Absolutely.

Srini Rao

both with your life and your career.

Scott Shigeoka

Oh, I love that question. Thanks for asking about him. He's yeah, he died, you know, over a decade ago, but he still really lives with me in my heart and sort of spirit in the way that I moved through the world. He was a really complex man. But one thing that he always did that I do to this day is he was willing to talk to anyone. It didn't matter if he there was like the postal service driver or the person that works the trash can delivery or

you know, all of our neighbors or someone at the supermarket or someone on the bus or someone on the street, you know, he would always be able to strike up a conversation. And, you know, we would be going maybe to like, the movies for like our once that month sort of movie adventure. And we'd be like in a conversation with someone for 20 minutes, you know, before we even arrived at the show that he didn't even know. So he was so good at connecting to strangers and making them feel

sort of heard and seen and appreciated and valued and that makes sense. I mean he was, you know, door-to-door salesman He sold knives and encyclopedias and you know phone Cards and phone books and stuff like that So, you know, he was always really good at striking up conversations with folks and yeah, I do that now, too That's something that everyone points out to me They're like wow, you can talk to anyone and you can just strike up a conversation They're all so different their older and younger and you know all kinds of backgrounds and you can just drop in and

I'm so appreciative of that.

Srini Rao

Yeah, well, my sister has a one year old and he's just started learning words at a rate that all of us are shocked by and you know, he should took him to the pediatrician's office yesterday and she's like, he decided that he would be the official greeter for the office. I mean, everywhere he goes because he's learning how to say hi. So he just says hey to everybody. And, you know, as it really is amazing, but it got me thinking as you were saying, what you were saying, what happens to that? Like, why is it that we become?

Scott Shigeoka

I love that.

Scott Shigeoka

Aww, that's so cute.

Srini Rao

so less sort of receptive to talking to new people with age. Like he's obviously has no perception of what's going on. He's just like, hey, and it seems so simple. And I'm like, wait a minute, that's like the foundation of every relationship you have.

Scott Shigeoka

Yeah.

Scott Shigeoka

Yeah, totally. Well, I think like when we're younger, you know, especially, you know, we aren't sort of exposed to the culture that exists in our world, right, that there's so much danger, there's things that we should fear, you know, there's all these messages that we get from the news from the people around us about, you know, what, you know, why talking to strangers is not a healthy or, you know, a safe thing to do. And obviously, those stories don't come from nowhere. There are

you know, examples of, you know, really horrific things that have happened. Um, when, you know, a kid or something talks to a stranger, but, you know, more than likely you're about to, you're going to encounter someone in the world, um, who is similar to you in many ways. And, you know, I think has just as much curiosity about the people who are around them and, um, have interesting lives that you can learn a lot about. Um,

So that's sort of why I wrote the book. I just want, in part, as we're living in this era of in curiosity right now, I feel like today we're so unwilling to turn towards the stranger we're sitting next to on the bus or the subway, right? We'd rather be on our phones or even at our family reunions. We're like, oh, that person voted in a different way. I'm not going to talk to them the whole time. So I see us sort of moving away from what you're seeing in your nephew or.

You know, what my dad showed me, where we have this openness and this open heartedness and this willingness to talk to different people.

Srini Rao

Well, so one other thing, you know, you're of Asian descent, you've taught at Berkeley. So I got to ask, like, with your parents and your dad, and particularly, what was the narrative about making your way in the world? Because, like, I don't know if it was the same for you, like any Indian kid, everybody knows I've said before 1000 times, a doctor, lawyer, engineer or failure, those are your options. Like, what was that narrative in your household?

Scott Shigeoka

Hmm.

Scott Shigeoka

Yeah, so, you know, I grew up in Hawaii. So, you know, I think that there is like a little bit of a difference maybe and what it's like to grow up, you know, as, you know, an Asian American or mixed or, you know, Pacific Islander like out in Hawaii versus on the mainland, especially for Asians, I would say, based on just like my anecdotal, you know, like talking to people who are from Hawaii, and then who are from the mainland, who are first generation or, you know, fourth generation, you know, there's, I think, you know,

people from Hawaii, culturally, there's like this similar DNA that we all share, or not DNA, but like cultural DNA that we all share, where it's very like, we're super open. We have huge like family events. We go to the beach. We like are, you know, not so, you know, it's very social and human relationship based, right? The aloha spirit, like that's what we talk about a lot in Hawaii. That's really was the priority for my family and my parents.

my extended family, you know, we would go to these big holiday gatherings and there'd be like 40, 50 people there and we wouldn't really talk about work, you know, like those were, you know, or, you know, what you were going to be. I think my parents wanted me to be happy and successful. But, you know, they, they didn't definitely give me that sort of pressure to, you know, be a doctor or a lawyer or something like that. I think they just wanted to make sure that

you know, because people in our family struggled and we would like drop off groceries to people and people were like barely living off of social security and stuff in my family. They just wanted me to, you know, be able to take care of myself. I think that was the biggest thing because I even applied to I was applied to art schools, you know, and they're like, Oh, cool, like love that for you, you know, because I doodled and wrote, you know, all through my childhood. I didn't end up going to an art school, I didn't get in but I still like kept that creativity with me alive to the school I eventually did go to. Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, one other thing about your parents, and then we'll get into the book and sort of the career trajectory that led there. You alluded to being gay in the book, if I remember correctly. And I wonder what that experience was like, of coming out to parents as well as sort of the people you know in your life, because like, I've always wondered how this differs across cultures. And I can tell you, I've had other guests, some who have said it was basically the end of their relationship with their parents.

Scott Shigeoka

Mm-hmm.

Scott Shigeoka

Mm-hmm.

Scott Shigeoka

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

others who said they were stunned by how open they were. So I wonder in like the Asian American culture, cause like I know in the Indian culture, it's so taboo almost that like, I don't think I know any gay Indian people. Like, I know, you know what? I knew one at Berkeley and everybody knew that he was gay.

Scott Shigeoka

Right, right. Yeah, and some people, you know, they're around and talking to people who are, you know, a part of the LGBTQ community, but they don't know it, you know, because some folks haven't disclosed that to certain people for all kinds of different reasons. But for me, yeah, so I didn't get to come out to my dad before he died, unfortunately, but yeah, I have a feeling that he would have reacted pretty similar to how my mom did, which was, you know, she was a little bit

didn't understand it at first was concerned for my safety after sort of her not knowing so much about our community. And she was alive during a time when there was a lot of persecution against LGBTQ people. Not that doesn't exist today, but the cultural sort of shift has happened in comparison to like the 80s or the 90s. Although our trans brothers and sisters are still under attack and assault at a really disproportionate rate today.

But yeah, so she was sort of like struggling to understand it. And it took her like a couple months to be able to, you know, really come around and be like, okay, I understand that you're gay, what this means for you. You know, and she became really accepting and even celebratory event. And she called me one day afterwards and she said, I didn't vote for this person who is going to, you know, become the rep for Hoy because they weren't, you know, pro LGBTQ. And I was like, oh my God, that's awesome. I'm like, you love that.

And I don't know, it's just a reminder that, you know, sometimes it takes time for people to, you know, understand something that they're not familiar with, that, you know, they never had exposure to growing up. And, you know, I've heard so many stories where people are like, oh, my parents don't get it. And then they like cut or cancel them out of their lives, you know, and the same happens even just like in the political arena, right? Like someone...

has a very opposing view and they just like don't understand your own point of view or don't understand your own suffering, your own life experiences. So we cut and cancel those people out from their, you know, your life. But sometimes it takes time. It takes like a couple of weeks, takes a couple of months for them to really fully digest it, understand it, get out of their own way, you know, like see and learn new things that then, you know, change their perspective for the better.

Srini Rao

Yeah. You know, based on the timeline, I get the sense that you lost your father at a pretty young age. And to me, that's like one of those things that I think I just absolutely fear more than anything in the world, because I'm like, there's no self help book for this one. And I've asked so many people at Frank Kostaszewski from the Zen Hospice Project here, but like, how do you navigate the grief of something like that? And, you know, at some point, how like, how do you move on?

Scott Shigeoka

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Scott Shigeoka

Mm.

Scott Shigeoka

Yeah, yeah. And we also had a complicated relationship because, you know, when I was in middle school, my dad went to prison for a number of years. And so we have this, you know, obviously this sort of disconnect where I would only see him, you know, through this one room during visitation hours, you know, at the prison. So and that doesn't also define his experience because the prison, you know, sentence was related to an addiction. And, you know, he's more than that. I

is also just like one of the most creative and entrepreneurial people that I knew growing up and really inspired me to be on the path that I am today in a lot of ways. So, you know, I think grief is really complicated sometimes, you know, when you have a really complicated history with someone, especially a parent, or you know, someone that you're extremely close to that you grew up with. My parents were also, you know, divorced. So then that adds another sort of layer of

Scott Shigeoka

I mean, it took years. I think, you know, sometimes people are like, oh, you'll get over that like in a couple of weeks or a couple of months and then you'll move on. But, you know, and that might be true for some people who, you know, have particular relationships with family members and the grief scene is a little more simple, you know, and we all grieve in different ways. But for me and grieving my dad, it was like almost a decade long journey of sort of reconciling his history, our relationship.

really getting curious about, you know, what was the life that we did live that I'm grateful for? What did I learn from him? What are the things that I'm carrying with me that I might pass on to my children? You know, like all of those kinds of questions. And, you know, just really just like, I remember like six years after he died, like I just like randomly like broke down, like on the side of the road one night, you know what I mean? So it just kind of hits you in waves too, if you lose someone really close to you.

And I think, yeah, you're right. When you lose someone, when you're younger, I was basically a kid, you know, when I lost him. You know, you don't necessarily have that experience of losing someone. You don't have those like coping skills to support you through that journey. Or sometimes even like that professional support or like that huge, you know, friend group, you know, who really understands what you're going through, right? So that can be really challenging and difficult. And that's why it's really important when...

you know, young people lose someone really important to them in their lives, you know, making sure that they're supported and cared for and, and heard. And, you know, it is really important, not just in month three after the death, but, you know, years later.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I remember my friend Matt's mom, I was asking her about this and she said, doesn't matter how old you are, when you lose a parent, she's like, there's never going to be a day that goes by that you don't think about.

Scott Shigeoka

Yeah, that's true too. Yeah, that's absolutely true. And everyone has different relationships too with their parents. Some people are like no contact and I've set a boundary for a very good reason, you know what I mean? And that's even more complicated or can be more complicated in terms of grieving. So it's just, it really depends on the person and the relationship.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, talk to me about the trajectory that led you to getting to the point where you've done research and wrote a book on curiosity, like what led you here?

Scott Shigeoka

Yeah, I think the big sort of gout, like the moment for me, the capital T, capital M is the 2016 elections. And I just remember in the United States for the presidential elections, and I just remember looking at the news and looking at social media and looking around, you know, my communities, my family, like my workplace, like everything, it was just, it was so, so heated. Everyone was just.

dehumanizing one another. No one was listening to one another, I felt like from where I was standing. And I just felt like, wow, is this the new normal? Is this where we're headed? Like, is this the divide? And what does this division and toxic polarization mean for us? Like, where is this gonna take us? Are we actually gonna be able to hold relationships across our differences? Are we gonna be able to solve problems together that are-

that real people are facing and experiencing today, whether it's food insecurity or homelessness or the climate crisis or whatever it is, right? If we can't come together, we can't actually solve these problems. I think that was the big catalyzing moment. I basically looked at the job I was in, which was a corporate agency job. We did good work, but I was like, gosh, there's that storyteller inside of me. I had written for the Washington Post and I had been a long time writer.

I kind of had like, you know, four or five years where I like went away from that part of my path. And every day that passed in those five years, I got this tapping, you know, my shoulder that was like, you need to go back to that. Like, yeah, it might feel a little bit less like financially secure. Yeah, it might not be as like comfortable as what you're in right now. But like, that's your purpose, you got to go back to it. And so sort of all of that made me realize I need to quit my job. Like this is just it's becoming too much for me. And I want to explore.

the divide and how we can come back together and how we can heal. And so I set off on this journey and my Prius and I just like took out the back seeds, put it in a bed, got a planet fitness membership, and I just went off on this like year plus long road trip. And I went to Trump rallies and I went to, you know, churches and I went to organizations that were anti-LGBTQ or had policies or legislation they're trying to pass that was anti-LGBTQ. And I was like, we are so different and we have such opposing views, but I think that if we can see each other.

Scott Shigeoka

and we can see each other in a, you know, for our humanity, our common humanity, you know, and actually listen to each other's stories, perhaps we can, you know, build a more just, a more just society in a society where we all belong. And so that's...

That's when I head off out of San Francisco, my progressive enclave as this like queer Asian American. You know, my friends were like, you gotta bring a gun, you gotta bring a knife, you know, like it's gonna be so scary out there. And I was like, I don't know how to use those things that I don't wanna use this, like, no, I'm not gonna do that. Like, I'm just gonna be armed with my curiosity and we'll see where that takes me.

Srini Rao

Hahaha!

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, one of the very first things you say in the book is that we need to become the kind of people who search for stories rather than positions and values instead of views. We have to look inside of ourselves, getting curious about our own past emotions and not just rely on learning about the world outside of us. And the parts about the Trump rally in particular stuck me, you as a queer Asian man going. And so I wondered you actually were there. And I think that one of the things that media does is it tends to show the worst of everybody.

Scott Shigeoka

Hmm.

Srini Rao

Uh, like particularly when we look at Trump supporters, Trump rallies, what obviously gets the most attention is the most extreme stuff. Um, and obviously algorithms play a role, but like, can you share some of the things that were really surprising? Like, I think that's the thing. Like, if you talk to somebody who comes from like a progressive enclave, they're sort of general consensus is, Oh, they're all just a bunch of racists. I mean, Hillary Clinton went so far as to call an entire group of people deplorables and I'm like,

Scott Shigeoka

Hmm.

Srini Rao

You know what? Some of those people were actually my friends. I don't agree with them, but I have friends who voted for Trump. Good friends like some of my best friends.

Scott Shigeoka

Yeah, yeah.

Scott Shigeoka

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think we see this in so many different conflicts across, you know, whether, you know, it's, you know, whether it's politics, or whether it's race based or faith based or geopolitical or whatever, you know, there's this sort of like, othering that happens, right? Where an entire group of people are like casted as this like monolithic, they're all the same. They're all, you know, the enemy. And even some people when I was going off to Trump rallies are like, why?

people who I align with ideologically, they're like, why are you platforming or supporting the enemy, you're crossing enemy lines, you're basically supporting white supremacy. And it was just like a lot of these really intense sort of allegations. And when I got there to the rally, I had all of those assumptions, all of those fears, all of those allegations that were made towards me.

I was holding that in my body, you know what I mean? And I was like, you know, I entered the parking lot area and there was like the sea of, you know, red hats and red shirts and these huge Jumbotrons with Trump on it. And I was like, shit, am I doing all those things that they're telling me? Like, should I even be here? But I just like kept on going forward and I said, that's their, that's, you know, they're coming from their own pain, their own suffering, their own injustices that they felt and.

You know, I have to hold that, but I also have to, you know, see and hold what's going on here too, because that's also a part of the picture. And what was surprising to me was, you know, I had this stereotype of a Trump voter, you know, before I had went to a rally, I saw them as, you know, uneducated from, you know, um, I saw them as, you know, you know, mostly white, um, from, you know, probably rural parts of the country, you know, I, they came from the news, they came from the narrative that was in the culture and on social media.

And then I started talking to people and I was like, whoa, like so many people have advanced degrees. Like so many people have done, are working in rows of like nonprofits and in humanitarian organizations. I learned, they're so similar to like me in terms of like the shows they were watching and what they were enjoying in popular culture.

Scott Shigeoka

the struggles they were having in their relationships to their romantic partners. I was like, wow, I really identify with a lot of these sort of, you know, where these conversations were going. And just, you know, what they wanted for their kids and their families. It was just like, you could have dropped me into a democratic rally and a lot of those same things would come up, right, in conversation. But I did hear also a lot of the same sort of fears and anxieties of, you know,

these Democrats, those people, you know, at least you're coming out here to talk to us like, you know, your people don't do that. They all think we're evil. Like, I and then they told me these stories of family members, or their, you know, their girlfriends, friends who, you know, have basically talked shit in front of them or behind their back and had made them to feel lesser than or stupid or dumb for the ways that they voted. And they clearly aren't I mean, they're many of the people I talked to, at least.

at that particular rally that you're talking about, you know, were, you know, educated and had a coherent thought and like knew why they were voting for, you know, Trump and, you know, also had some of the nuances that, you know, we have about the Democratic candidates that I would vote for. So, you know, I think I just, I just kind of like realized in the rally like we're, you know, yes, we have very different views, but at the core human level, we are, you know, very similar.

I did meet some people just throughout my journey who definitely had views that were hateful or were misguided. I think you could find the same thing on the democratic side too, where groups of people are dehumanized for whatever reason, whether it's coming from their own pain or their own biases.

For the most part, I think people are just trying to feel heard and want to move the country forward and want their families and their communities to be taken care of. I think that's what we can all agree on.

Srini Rao

Yeah, you know, it's funny you say that because I had a mentor Greg who traveled around the country visited all 50 states and one of the things that he said to me was that when you live in a place like California or these progressive enclaves he's like you have a very distorted perception of what this country is actually like and I remember when I was driving to Colorado. I stopped in this tiny little town in Utah somewhere And it was five o'clock on a Monday afternoon. It was on Main Street

And every single shop was boarded up closed. There were hardly any restaurants open. And I thought to myself, no wonder these people are pissed off. Like their lives are falling apart. Like how can you, if your livelihood was threatened in this way, you'd probably react the same way.

Scott Shigeoka

Mm-hmm.

Scott Shigeoka

Yep, yep, yep. When your only exposure to Utah is the Book of Mormon on Broadway, you know what I mean? In New York City, it's like, you're not going to know that Salt Lake City is one of the queerest cities in the country. You're not going to know that there are extremely incredible conservation efforts in Utah that are basically single-handedly saving the desert and other ecosystems. You know what I mean? There are so, there's so much there. And even people who do identify as a part of the Latter-day Saints community.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Scott Shigeoka

who I have friends within, you know? And I actually like lived, you know, in my, like right after college with a group of progressive Latter-day Saints folks in this like group house. And I went to like singles ward with them, you know? And I just like hung out and partied with them, you know? You just start to see a more nuanced picture of like, wow, there's like, just like in any religion, you know, no two Christians are the same and no two Latter-day Saints are the same. And Utah is just like really diverse place. And I also think, you know, living in California,

and having a partner who's from the South, you know, he has definitely opened my eyes to really recognize the ways in which people hear, view people from the South. You know what I mean? Like the caricatures, the ways people like drop in an accent, like sort of like have this like stereotype that people from the South are dumb or uneducated or all vote red or like whatever it is, you know? And it's just like not true. It's not founded on any reality, you know? When you go to the South, there is a...

huge diversity of people, racially, there's huge cultures that are there that aren't, it's not monolithic by any means. There's a very vibrant democratic voting base there. You have all sorts of really interesting innovators and entrepreneurs in the South. You know what I mean? It's so interesting. I hear a lot from people in California of like, wow, look at all the ways that...

people on the other side are stereotyping and, you know, have waging assumptions at our communities. But, you know, if we really looked at our own selves in the mirror, you know, we're often doing the same thing, just to different groups.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, let's talk about the role of curiosity in education and start with childhood in particular, because one of the things you say is that as we grow up and become more certain about the world, most of us leave curiosity to the children. The problem is research shows that curiosity is critical for learning through the entirety of our life, not just at childhood. And it's got me thinking about my one year old nephew, that guy is curious about everything. Everything is interesting to him. But you also taught at my alma mater.

Scott Shigeoka

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

And it got me wondering and I ask anybody who has worked in our education system, like if you were tasked with redesigning the education system from the ground up with the background that you have from having written this book, what would you change? Because what I realized when I went and looked back at sort of how I made my choices at Berkeley, not a single class I ever took was based on what am I curious about? It was all this, what do I think will get me a job? And of course, I'm doing nothing related to any of it.

Scott Shigeoka

Mm-hmm.

Scott Shigeoka

Exactly. Yeah.

Scott Shigeoka

Yeah, I think like, I mean, what I would do if I just like to wave a magic wand, I think is one is exactly that is to ask students what they're curious about, and to support that learning journey around that and to give them access to the tools, and you know, the technologies and to be in communities with other peers to explore those topics and just share more about those topics, you know.

We see that at the adult level with communities of practice, for instance, and we see all the benefits of that, but we don't really bring that into the lives of children. And they could definitely do that and excel at that and learn a lot from that. I think too, I would bring students out into nature more. That's what I've seen in my college classrooms that I teach is a lot of them are disconnected from nature. They've spent a lot of time, especially the places that I've taught at University of Pennsylvania, UT Austin, Cal.

You know, they've spent a lot of time, many of them, to just like nail these tasks, get these great scores, get into these schools. And you know, there's almost like this huge level of anxiety and this pressure that they've put on themselves and also like major imposter syndrome because it's succeeded so much that they feel like I'm not actually as good as I say I am. And I think one of the best solutions to heal through that

is A, not only to name those things and to be honest about them in a vulnerable way to one another, but B, to get out into nature and to do an all walk and to be just inspired by our natural world. We know from the research that definitely regulates our emotions, it reduces anxiety, it can help us with this experience of awe, it can help us in immeasurable ways. It also makes us more curious too about ourselves and the world around us. So,

I would get folks out into nature in some way. And then also, I just think there's a fundamental resourcing problem. We're just not resourcing, especially public education. Well, teachers are being asked, and I have many friends who are public school teachers, they are being asked to do way too much. And I know it's complicated to increase teacher pay in the way that the system works. But we need to really be compensating our teachers well. And

Srini Rao

No.

Scott Shigeoka

you know, really finding ways to make sure that, you know, for example, they're not paying out of their own salary to get classroom, you know, materials. I mean, that's just, you know, there's like basic things on the resourcing front we need to change. Um, but yeah, I think, I, you know, and I think if we can really support parents and the communities around the student as well to, you know, be engaged and be involved in that student's learning journey, you know, show their own curiosity as parents, for instance, we know from the research that when a parent shows,

their curiosity and models it and demonstrates it, their kids are more likely to have heightened levels of trade and state curiosity. So that's really exciting to know that, you know, I don't just have to try to instill it within my child. I can be curious again, like I can talk about the things that I'm getting curious about. I can explore new experiences and new interests, and that'll help my child as well, because they'll see that and they'll model it.

after us. So yeah, I think those are the I mean, there's, there's educated experts. I mean, there's so much I don't know also about the I'm just a you know, I just teach you know what I mean? Like I'm not, you know, I don't have a lot of an understanding of like the systems and how things are financed and all the politics and you know, there's so many things I don't know. But that's why we all need to come together with all of our different expertises and you know, collaborate on

Srini Rao

now.

Scott Shigeoka

a better solution. Yeah, I think most of us can agree that like education is messed up in a lot of ways. So

Srini Rao

Yeah, well, I always joke that I'm a failed byproduct of the system. Because, like I said, you know, nothing was based on curiosity. And like, I think that when I was looking back, and I'd said this to somebody before on the show, I said, you know, like Berkeley, this, like, you know, diverse place that was like, you know, hotbed of the counterculture of the 60s, like it's supposed to be, you know, this just incredibly, like, dynamic and creative group of people. And like, I remember getting there and looking back, I'm like, Yeah, but it's a breeding ground for conformity instead.

Scott Shigeoka

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

And part of that, I think, is the lack of curiosity, like that just gets drilled out of them. Like I don't think you've ever seen the movie accepted with Dustin Long, where he has to make up a he doesn't get into college. So he makes up a fake college print and creates a website. And then everybody showed like he's not expecting the website to be functional, but his friend makes it functional and says acceptance is one click away and people actually pay tuition. And so he opens the door on day one, there's 1000 people outside and Lewis Black is the Dean. He was like, Well, what should we teach them?

Scott Shigeoka

Yeah.

Mm-mm. No.

Scott Shigeoka

Oh, wow. Okay, I love that premise.

Scott Shigeoka

Hmm.

Srini Rao

He said, I don't know, he's like, ask them. And that really struck me when I said, plus, like what and the reactions are really telling because every time he does that he's like, wait, why are you asking me he's like, because he's like, I guess I'm guessing nobody has ever asked you what you're interested in before. And he says, Okay, fine. Take this guy's tuition and appropriate it towards his thing that he's curious about. And I like really wish an education institution would just do a pilot program that is driven entirely by curiosity.

Scott Shigeoka

Hmm.

Scott Shigeoka

Hmm

Scott Shigeoka

Hmm

Scott Shigeoka

Yeah, I've actually seen, especially in the K through six space, you know, I've definitely seen models of this where students come to the table and they say what they're curious about or what they want to focus on for their learning today. And then they collectively explore that. You know, and I lived in Iceland for two years. I think this is also in other countries as well. And there's like a lot we can learn from one another. But I love that that's sort of entering popular culture because we.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Scott Shigeoka

You know, we build these parasocial relationships with characters, you know, on a TV show or on a movie, and that can really change our perspectives in the ways that we move through our real lives, right? So for instance, if you don't know anyone who's queer, and you see a character on a TV show who is, you know, you're basically building this parasocial relationship with them. And you're learning things about their lives. And you're, you know, you're able to really understand their stories and how they move through the world and what they struggle with.

And that builds your empathy. And when you meet someone in real life who identifies in that same way, you have that sort of existing relationship and knowledge that you can bring in to the table, right? Which is really exciting. So, you know, I think the same is true maybe for like folks who are from Utah or from the South or, you know, who voted for Trump. Like we need to have more sort of fully fleshed out and nuanced characters, you know, who represent the diversity of America in all ways.

There's a big movement in Hollywood for race representation, but I think it extends beyond that as well. And yeah, I would also just say, I hope we move to a world where that happens. I hope your nephew grows up in a school system like that. That would be incredible. And to your point, college campuses are so ripe right now, also with this sort of group mob mentality of sort of...

responding to conflicts or crises that exist in the world, or maybe a speaker that's coming to their campus, and it can create extreme blowups and divisions and sometimes even violence, you know? And these are supposed to be institutions that, you know, help people with free thought and free expression and, you know, critical thinking and learning about multiple perspectives, but we're definitely seeing a lot of struggles with that on campuses across the country.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, I think that makes a perfect segue into two concepts that you talk about in the book, which are inward directing our curiosity and outward directing our curiosity. Can you expand on those for people and explain what they are and how they play a role in our lives?

Scott Shigeoka

Totally. And so curiosity is our desire to understand and we can understand, we often think about curiosity about understanding other people, the world around us. I wanna get curious about this person who I'm in conversation with. I wanna get curious about this topic in school that I'm really fascinated about. But there's also inward curiosity, which is about how do we direct our desire to understand towards ourselves? What...

You know, like we talked about in the beginning of this episode, you know, my relationship to my dad, what he meant to me, how do I grieve? What are the ways that I can support myself and cope with, you know, grieving? Um, you know, who, you know, who am I in terms of like, what, what is my purpose? What is the kind of work I want to do in the world? Um, what would make me feel like I have fulfilling relationships? Um, what values do I hold? Where did those come from? You know, like those are all inward curiosity, explorations.

And it's what a therapist might do, right? If you're in conversation with a Western trained therapist, they're really gonna help you to, usually in talk therapy, at least in certain modalities, they'll ask you questions that really are an exploration of your inner world, your emotions, how you react to respond to things, how you feel about certain relationships. That's inward curiosity. So you have inward, outward, and then there's a third direction, which is the beyond. And, sorry, I'm just gonna take a sip of water.

Scott Shigeoka

And the beyond is about how to get curious about what is not in the physical realm. So that might be the divine, God, consciousness. It also could be our ancestors or, you know, those who aren't born yet, seven generations from now. So those are the three directions. You have inward, getting curious about yourself, outward, getting curious about others or the world around you, and the beyond, getting curious about what's not in the physical realm.

Srini Rao

Yeah. You also make this distinction between both shallow and deep curiosity. And you say that shallow curiosity means you acknowledge the doors there walk up to it and look through the people to see what's on the other side. Your view is distorted by the fish islands, which represents your assumptions, biases and lack of nuance. Deep curiosity, on the other hand, is about turning the knob, it's opening the door and going through it, you venture into the unknown of the other side to experience it firsthand, which can feel daunting and exciting all at once. So tell me what

like keeps people from indulging in deep curiosity and keeps them stuck in and sort of shallow curiosity because like for me, like I said, I people always ask me like, Oh, you seem to do so much research for this. And I was like, actually, I don't like to me, the interview is the research, I just follow me a curiosity. Like I'm always asking questions based on what I want to know.

Scott Shigeoka

Yeah.

Scott Shigeoka

Yep, yep.

Scott Shigeoka

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you do have preparation. I mean, I talk about the importance of preparation, just like it's important to stretch before you go for a run. And you do a lot of preparation, you actually read the author's books, and you do your own set of research, you come up with your own list of questions. And I think you're also very emergent, it feels like. But I think journalists or hosts are great examples of curiosity ambassadors. You all are, you know, we're really

at that because we live and breathe that every day. But there's so many other sort of occupations that are also really great at it, some that are unlikely like a wildland firefighter or like an end of life doula. But yeah, so I think the big, you know, I like to think about shallow to deep curiosity, not just like as a door that we open, but also as an ocean, because there's shallow waters and there's deep waters. And you know, shallow waters, like we're trying to understand someone almost at that shallow level, like what's your name? Where do you live? What do you do for work?

And then as you move along the spectrum, along the ocean, to the deeper ends, you really have to dive beneath the surface. You have to go underneath the water to really see, who is this person that I'm talking to? What are their stories? What are the relationships to the people that they care most about? Instead of, what's your name? You might ask, what's the story of your name? Or who named you? Or what's your relationship with the people who named you? Can you tell me about them? So it's a little bit deeper. It...

gives you insight into who that person is in a richer way. But just like going to the deep end of the ocean, it's scary, man. Like, it can be scary to like dive there for a bunch of reasons. We have fear of, okay, if I ask these questions, does that mean I should probably answer them? And like, that's vulnerable, that feels scary to me. What if we find out things about this person that make us react in particular ways, right? I know that's...

You know, what holds back a lot of couples, for instance, and romantic relationships that are, you know, where they're struggling and they really need to look into the relationship and inward into their cells and into each other. But you know, they don't want to hear news that might mean something devastating for the relationship, you know, and so they kind of just dismiss it and they getting curious about it and they, you know, just go about their days, right. But we really for ultimate satisfaction and fulfillment, we do need to dive in.

Scott Shigeoka

to the deep end and we need to get deeply curious about ourselves, about others in the world around us and even about the beyond if we want to live lives that where we're not just trying to survive, but really are trying to thrive. We know from the research that people with higher levels of curiosity tend to have higher life satisfaction and they also tend to have more fulfilling relationships and just positive

you know, overall well-being, including happiness. They tend to be happier people. And we also know that when you have lower levels of curiosity, you increase your mortality rates. You know, they've done these studies with older adults. And yeah, when you aren't exercising your curiosity, you're more likely to not live as long. You're chopping years off your lifespan. So it's a mechanism to thrive, but it also is a mechanism to survive. And that makes sense too, because, you know, we have our curiosity, we're born with it.

because of our ancestors, you know, we needed someone in the group to be curious about is water on the other side of that mountain or is that food in that bush? Or, you know, how do we track this buffalo? Or, you know, can I eat this mushroom? Like whatever, you know, our curiosities led us to, you know, building tools and communicating with one another and building relationships. So all of that, you know, you know, thanks to, you know, evolution, you know, was passed on to us. And when researchers

you know, study infants, you know, before they can even learn something from the people around them, they find that infants stare at novel stimuli for longer than known stimuli, meaning that they're more interested and more captivated, you know, and have their attention towards the things that are new to them versus the things that are older known. So it is something we're born with. And even that even though we're born with it, it can be scary to sort of get towards that deeper end to

Um, you know, just like lifting a muscle though, you know, like you're, you have, if you haven't really like run a lot, or if you haven't really lifted weights a lot yet, you're going to look at that, like marathon or you're going to look at that, like two and your bound bench lift, and you're going to be like, wow, that seems scary. That seems hard and unattainable, but you know, you work at it, you practice it, you build that muscle over time and, um, you condition and you can eventually get there.

Srini Rao

Well, I mean it makes when I hear you say that it suddenly like the way that I start the show makes a lot Of sense and I you know ask these questions I remember Cal Fussman whose world-class interview told this story on Tim Ferriss podcast where he had an interview with Gorbachev and he thought he was gonna get an hour and Somehow the schedule got mangled and so he basically said alright Well, he said then he asked him this question about his father and in Grub shop ended up talking to him for about an hour

Scott Shigeoka

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

Even though he thought he was only gonna have 15 minutes because that was like the kind of question you could not answer without depth

Scott Shigeoka

Yeah.

Scott Shigeoka

Yep, yep, yep. I actually got to meet Cal a couple of years ago and yeah, he has such a love for questions and the interesting, the powerful, the compelling, the fresh. And I think that's something that a lot of people who I find are really, really competent with their curiosity. They can go to like a Trump rally, they can essentially do that to your

Scott Shigeoka

you know, a database, you know, of really, really powerful questions that they've been asked, or that they've asked others, that they sort of like keep in their back pocket. And you know, that's why in the book, I say like, you know, we can't just be a culture that's focused on answers and knowing this, we also have to, you know, really remember the great questions that open doors to understanding and connection, right? We have to write those down, you know, we have to, as employers in a workplace, we have to, you know,

reward people who ask really great questions and not see it as like, oh, they're holding, they're making this team meeting longer, or they're holding us back from accomplishing the mission of solving it, right? Because those explorations are really, really helpful for us, especially in the long term in a business setting, but also personally, and the research supports that as well.

Srini Rao

Well, so there's one other layer of this that really struck me when you said that when we try to persuade, we lose sight of the person in front of us and just see position instead, this puts them under defensive or causes them to shut down by not having a genuine interest in their values, upbringing or personal experiences that shape their view. You're engaging in predatory curiosity. Um, and that really stood out to me because I thought about that from the standpoint of the types of questions that I asked people like every now and then people are like, you go for the jugular. I'm like, well, my goal isn't.

Scott Shigeoka

Mm-hmm.

Srini Rao

to like make somebody feel uncomfortable, it's to get to know them and get to a part of them that I can't get to if all I did was talk to you about your work. But it got me thinking about that from sort of a sales perspective or any other perspective where we can kind of, we think we can fake it, but I mean, we really can't.

Scott Shigeoka

Mm-hmm.

Scott Shigeoka

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's kind of what a detective does, right? Like it looks like they're being really curious or asking open ended questions, you know, their non verbals are indicating that they're really listening well. But there's a goal for why they're asking these questions, you know, they're trying to figure something out, you know, and that is not true curiosity, right? Anytime there's an agenda underneath it, it can be like you walk, your partner walks through the door. And, you know, you know, when you're at home, and you got you start to talk to them.

And then you really want them to ask you a question like, how's your day or like, how, you know, how was your work today or whatever. So you ask them a question, you're like waiting for them to ask you the question pack, but they don't. And then maybe you get upset at them. You're like, why didn't you ask me the question? You know, like you were supposed to be like, I'm also here present in this relationship, whatever. You know, that we, you know, that is not your curiosity. You're, you're expecting something from someone, you know, when you ask that question.

Real curiosity is just, like you said, it's truly open-hearted, open-mindedness. Like I'm here to just understand you and where you come from and to understand your experiences, to understand the person you are. We live in a society where people are flattened to their identities. It's like, oh, you're Indian, you're Japanese. Okay, I know everything about you. Or like you're a Christian, you voted for Trump, I know everything about you. You're from the South.

Oh, you're from California. Like I know everything about you, right? Like we, we flatten people to their identities when there's so much more nuance and beauty and messiness and complication and contradiction. And the only way we can learn about those things is if we ask these really powerful questions and, you know, engage in a deeper form of curiosity. So yeah, I think that, um, that, you know, yeah, that, that's, that's very true.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, on that note, you say that when it comes to curiosity will fills our mental and emotional cups isn't tea. It's what I call the ABCs assumptions, biases, and certainty. These are the building blocks of our habitual thoughts and each shapes the way we see the world. These mental shortcuts serve an important purpose in our lives helping us filter through the information so that we aren't constantly paralyzed by the influx of details that comes at us from every direction. But over time, your cups fill to the brim often without us even noticing leaving little room to absorb new information about ourselves and each other and the world around us.

This gets in the way of deep curiosity. And I think about this in the context of the modern sort of digital age and how rampant it is with cognitive biases that distort the way that we, uh, interpret information, the conversations we're willing to have, like, cause I I've had people who have listened to the show. Like this is one example that comes to mind. We had a guy here who was talking about.

infidelity, he was describing, you know, a somewhat graphics and I don't censor my guests because I'm like, I want to tell a true story. And it was really interesting to see the responses. One woman emailed me and was so offended that she called me a misogynist for having him as a guest. And, you know, I replied back to him, I said, Look, like we have a ton of female guests, and we don't censor our guests. And she said, Don't ever email me again. Another woman heard the interview with that guy, and she hired him to be her coach. So talk to me about how we mitigate

Scott Shigeoka

Hmm

Srini Rao

the sort of assumptions, biases, and certainty, like when we're dealing with a world that tends to reinforce almost all of our biases.

Scott Shigeoka

Yeah. And you know, there's like an opportunity. I mean, and again, this is based on our capacity and our, you know, our own spaciousness in our own life on whether we can do this or not. And, and also whether we're invited to do that, and it's consented upon. But, you know, if, you know, someone emails you, and has a sort of like, you know, reaction, you know, I'm always curious, like, where is that coming from? You know, like, what, you know, what happened in your life? Or, you know, what, what emotions are coming up for you? And where did those

stem from, you know, that, you know, how'd you write this email? Because like, we're all busy people. We've got like families, we've got like things to do, we're, you know, like, we're all, you know, we're all very, very busy. And to sort of like, write a message, you know, out of your day based on a podcast you listen to. I mean, there's definitely something there that, you know, you know, she, you know, I would, I would assume, and I don't know this person, but I would assume like, you know, that, you know, she wants to be heard and seen in that moment. And I think is, you know,

It's trying, you know, it's obviously, you know, trying to advocate for some form of justice that she felt like wasn't, you know, in existence. And so I think when, you know, we, it's, it's a, it's really, you know, you know, human impulse, I do this all the time. Like when someone, you know, DMs me or messages me and they didn't like the way that I represented something or they think I'm platforming, you know, a view that's unjust, you know, I really want to also just like practice that curiosity when I can.

and say, like, where is that coming from? Like, tell me more about why you feel that way. And I find that like, when I don't get defensive and I really just like, again, just openheartedly just wanna understand where this person is coming from, it doesn't only deescalate the intensity of the emotions that are happening, but then it opens the door for mutual understanding. And it's really beautiful. I think that's like why I wanted to become a writer and like why I'm doing this whole thing, you know? It's like to have those kinds of conversations. I didn't wanna just like...

talk about bullshit, you know, like talk about things that weren't actually meaningful. You know, I wanted to bring the things we talk about behind closed doors and living rooms that we're like scared to talk about on social media, like to the forefront, you know, and actually have conversations about that. And so yeah, so I think that's like really, I think that's always something that I think about and that some of the sometimes like those people are not willing to share where they're coming from. And that's, you know, they're right, you know, like

Scott Shigeoka

Just because, you know, I talk about in the book, curiosity is earned, not deserved. You know, there's even some cases where it's illegal to be curious, right? Like a hiring employer can't ask certain questions to people that, you know, are applying for a job. So we don't always have to answer the questions that are being asked of us. And we can't in turn expect that people are gonna answer every question that we ask. But, you know, I think there's something there and I'm really curious about it.

But I think what you're experiencing happens on the daily, pretty much across every field, across every conflict. I mean, we are, unfortunately, right now, seeing a historically long sort of conflict that's happening within Israel and Palestine and surrounding countries. And it's a very sort of similar sort of arena and dialogue that we've seen in politics.

across different fates and in different eras of our society, even in the past 10 years, it's a lot of dehumanization, a lot of sort of rash statements that where people are really not turning towards one another and really trying to understand where each other is coming from. And it makes sense again, because again, people are coming from pain and suffering and they have connections to people in that area. And there's...

they're in jeopardy or they've been killed, you know, and that's really intense. So not everyone's going to be open to curiosity or have the capacity for it. And that's important to remember and recognize.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, we've been kind of sort of alluding to it through some different sections of the book, but the beginning, you offer this model that you have the acronym dive for, can you explain that and how it gets us to a place of deep curiosity with people?

Scott Shigeoka

Sure. Yeah. So DIVE is basically an acronym. It's the four muscles, core muscles to deep curiosity and how we can exercise and access it more often in our lives. So D stands for detach, which is to let go of our ABCs, which you brought up our assumptions, our biases and our certainty. So how do we just sort of let go of the sense of, of we know everything about a person because of this identity they have.

or how do we let go of our desire to want to know all the answers and be the person that never says, I don't know, or that I was wrong, but instead to become an admitter and to sometimes admit to those things because that is truthful and that is humble. We know that when you practice that form of curiosity, that form of intellectual humility,

It's a connective force. You're more liked, you're able to work better in groups, and you're rarely seen as less competent actually when you practice those things. So, letting go of your ABCs is all about, we're filled up to the brim with our own assumptions and biases and our own desire for certainty, and we have to really learn to detach and let go from those if we want to truly be curious and let new information and new experiences in.

which is to set the mindset and the setting for curiosity. So that is basically what I was talking about with you, right, like you read the books of the authors that you go on the show with and you write your own questions and like what we're talking about with Cal of like thinking about the questions that are really resonant to us. We have to actually prepare for, especially conversations that might involve conflict. Let's say we're having a really meaty conversation with our team at home or teenager or with our boss or...

you know, with a family member, you know, that's going to require a lot of curiosity from us, right? We need to think about where's the space that we're going to be in to have that conversation. How am I going to show up? What time of day is it going to be? You know, are we going to be both well fed? How's the temperature going to be? What questions am I asking? How am I pausing and responding to the, you know, their, to their reactions or their responses to what I'm asking? You know, how do I end that conversation?

Scott Shigeoka

you know, that's really all about this idea of like, we gotta prepare, you know, for curiosity. We can't just assume it's gonna happen. V is value, which is to see the dignity of the person that you're being curious with. And that sometimes includes yourself, you know? Sometimes we take the strip ourselves of our own value and we don't see our own humanity. But when we do that, when we dehumanize ourselves or other people, we can't actually listen to them because we're...

they, again, like we talked about on this episode, we turn them into the other, into enemies. We're thinking from a place of fear and we're like, well, you better bring a gun, you better bring a knife to that rally because you never know who's gonna be out there to like, you know, snatch you. Like you should never talk to strangers little one because you never know who's gonna pull you into a van. You know, so it's the sort of the dehumanization, this expectance that other people are.

lesser than or are evil or savages or whatever terms that we use, unfortunately, as a society to dehumanize a group of people, we need to move away from that. And then E is embrace, which is the last part of dive. And that's to welcome the hard times in our lives because we know from the research that when we are curious in these really, really hard moments, like our own death, our own death, for instance, or

When we grieve, for instance, right? We talked about grieving my father's death. We're in a heartbreak moment, a divorce, where even something that could be positive but is really turbulent, like moving to a new house or moving to a new city or taking on a new job. These are the moments when we need curiosity the most. It has the most power to ground us, to keep us connected to the people that...

we are in those turbulent times with to keep centered on our own needs and desires and what we might need to give ourselves to actually handle and navigate those hard situations. So yeah, E is all about embracing the hard times. So D, I, V, E, detach, intend, value, embrace. And when you do those things together, or it's like a virtuous cycle, and you start to really strengthen that muscle of deep curiosity.

Srini Rao

In the section on value, you say that if you're sharing when you really should be listening, create more harm, no matter how much positive intent you have before jumping in to share your perspective, claiming that someone needs to get curious about you and your views start by reflecting on the power dynamics of the relationship, then decide your role accordingly. If you're in a group with more social power, it's important for you to listen if you're from a group with less social power, take on the role of sharing your perspectives.

And the reason that struck me is that I think that, you know, in our sort of new agey self help world, like if you are talking to a friend who happens to work in like a coaching capacity of any sort, they tend to default to asking you giving you advice when you're going through a hard time. And like, and that I remember, like, I was joking, the friend was like, I don't want you to be my fucking life coach. I just want you to sit here and listen to me bitch about this girl that broke my heart. Like, I don't need a coach right now. Like, you know,

Scott Shigeoka

Hmm

Scott Shigeoka

Totally. Oh my gosh. Yeah

Srini Rao

You get this like unsolicited advice, which I realized that is actually like when bad things happen to good people, giving them advice is almost one of the cruelest things you can do.

Scott Shigeoka

Yeah, sometimes people just want to be heard, you know, want to be like, listened to and understood and they want a space to vent. I mean, it's really helpful to ask, like, hey, what do you need for me in this moment, right? In those conversations. And some people are like, I just got a vent. And it's like, cool, I'm not gonna, you know, throw in that advice. But some people do come to you because they need advice. You're like really paralyzed. And they're like, no, I like I need advice, Scott, like, please, like, show me like what I'm not seeing because I'm like at my wit's end, you know. And so it's helpful.

Srini Rao

Mm-hmm.

Scott Shigeoka

again, to get curious and to understand like, what is this person need right now in this moment, and then to operate from that place, especially if you want to show up as like a good friend, right. But yeah, I think I love that you brought up that line. I think that that's really, really important.

Srini Rao

Well, I mean, I feel like I could talk to you all day about this because there's just so much

Scott Shigeoka

I know you're such a great conversation partner.

Srini Rao

It's one of those subjects I feel that, you know, like, I think we understand the value and we, you know, we lose that as we get older. But like I can tell you, like I said, I built an entire career off of curiosity. And it's the thing that literally people ask me how I make decisions about creative projects. And almost everything in my life is a decision based on curiosity.

Scott Shigeoka

Yeah, totally. And not even just in your working life, but in your personal life too, it sounds like, even the way you're looking at your family members who are just being born into this world or your relationships to the people closest to you, right? You're constantly being curious about them and it's so great that this muscle you exercise at work can benefit you in your personal life and vice versa, right? I mean, that's such a great virtuous cycle.

Srini Rao

Oh yeah!

Srini Rao

Yeah, I mean, it's funny because I use this AI tool called MIME. And I, you know, I've been writing this life advice book for my nephew, which is meant to be given to me as 18. And one day I just asked the I was like, do you know who my nephew is? And it's like I asked, you know, this person is. And it was like, yes, is your nephew. And I'm like, holy shit, you knew that. And so I got into this very interesting conversation with the AI. And I was like, you know what? What if you and I, as AI, wrote a book together about understanding the psychology of child development through the lens of his experiences?

Scott Shigeoka

Oh my god, I love that.

Srini Rao

So literally, it's just me indulging my curiosity about like, so basically, I tell the AI every day, okay, let's work on this book, ask me some questions about what you know, I've noticed in him recently. And so the AI basically writes the chapter and explains it through the lens of child development, telling the story that I share with it. It's really been just a fun and interesting project. Yeah.

Scott Shigeoka

Mm-hmm.

Scott Shigeoka

Hmm. And I love this. Yeah, that's so fun and interesting. And it's just going back to, you know, when we model our curiosity for, you know, the people around us, it's more likely that they're going to increase their own capacity for curiosity too. And, you know, that's not just our nieces and nephews and kids. It's like everyone around us, you know, like our colleagues or, you know, friends or romantic partner, because that's the one thing that I always get asked is like, well, what if I'm being curious and that other person's just not like giving me the time of day to be curious back to

It's like, yeah, you need to know your boundaries and what your limits are. And I have a whole chapter about that in the book. And you need to know, you know, when is this relationship harming you? But I think what's also important to remember is that, you know, the research says curiosity is contagious, you know? So the more that you practice your own curiosity, the more likely it is someone's going to give that back to you. And I think we've seen that all in conversations. And you see that probably in your thousands of conversations you've done that when you're curious, like other people get curious and they start thinking about new things and it just becomes this really, really interesting.

sort of like give and take Spyro is what researcher Todd Kashtian, who does a lot of curiosity research describes it as. But yeah, exactly. Yeah, so, you know, we're all in the fam, you know, but yeah, I think that it's really, it's really just like a beautiful thing. Yeah.

Srini Rao 

I just had him as a guest, like literally, Osby, which is...

Srini Rao 

Well, speaking of beautiful things, I think that makes such a beautiful place to finish our conversation. So I have one final question for you, which is how we finish all of our interviews. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Scott Shigeoka 

think it's someone who is, you know, this is so me with what I'm exploring right now, but it is someone who is genuinely curious about themselves, the world and what's beyond like the minute that you lose that curiosity, and that zest for exploring and understanding the world around you the world inside of you the world beyond what you can even see, you know, that is a minute that you do not become unmistakable and that is a minute you lose your thirst for life and you lose your connection to creativity and you lose your relationships to others and to, you know, it just, it's the downfall of you and your life, you know, so I think we need to enter this age where we reclaim our curiosity and really practice it every day, inspire others to do it knowing that it's contagious. And that is what is going to make us unmistakable.

Srini Rao

Incredible. Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story, your wisdom and your insights with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you, the book, your work and everything else that you're up to?

Scott Shigeoka 

And thank you. And thank you everyone that's listening for your time and for, you know, being in this conversation with us. You're right here in the room. And you can get the book, Seek, How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World anywhere where you get books. You can also go to seekthebook.com. There's a bunch of book selling websites there that you can pick up a copy from. And then you can hit me up on social, you know, Scott Shigeoka. I really do respond to people when they like message me because...

Again, that is why I became a writer. I mean, that's what I love to do is talk to real people and engage in the topics that I write about. So please let me know if you've read the book, tell me what you thought. Doesn't have to be positive things. I wanna engage with you no matter where you came from with your experience with the book. And thank you so much, Trini. I really appreciated this conversation. It was really, really delightful.

Srini Rao 

amazing and for everybody listening we will wrap the show with that.