Topaz Adizes | 12 Questions for Love, Intimate Conversation and Deeper Relationships

Srini Rao

Topaz, welcome to the unmistakable creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Topaz (06:40.526)
Oh, I'm excited to be here. This is going to be good.

Srini Rao

Yeah, it is my pleasure to have you here. So you have a new book out called 12 Questions for Love. And when I saw the content and the idea of how questions could be such an integral part of my life, naturally, given that I have built a career out of asking questions for the past 13 years, I was intrigued. So before we get into the book, I want to do start by asking you what is one of the most important things that you learned from one or both of your parents?

that have influenced and shaped who you've become, what you've ended up doing with your life and also, you know, how that informed what you've written about in this book.

Topaz (07:21.166)
Yeah. Um, I love how in all your podcasts, you acknowledge kind of, uh, where people come from. I mean, that's really important or what has shaped them. Um, my mother taught me integrity. My mother taught me integrity. And that means a lot, especially, I think I really acknowledge her for that. So, you know, you do what you say you're going to do and you stick to your word and you, uh, she also taught me humility.

Uh, now she says she thinks it was a mistake because she's like you and your brother, you're so humble. And she thinks that she really like, you're not standing out from the crowd because you guys are, I taught you to be too humble. My dad taught me, um, passion, passion for, for what you do. Um, and what you do means offering value. My parent, my, my, both of my parents are immigrants. So the question was always, what's the value? What's the value offering?

Srini Rao

Mwahaha!

Srini Rao

Mm -hmm.

Topaz (08:19.724)
Why are you doing this? How is this offering value to others? Learn that. And then, you know, you read the book. I mean, I think one other thing that they gave me was this hunger to explore intimacy because I kind of lacked in my childhood. So that kind of sent me off on a path, you know, which is currently culminating in this book and obviously the end. So, you know.

Srini Rao

Your parents being immigrants, what was the narrative about making your way in the world careers all of that? Because like I feel like, you know, in a lot of immigrant families, particularly like the ones I grew up in, it's like, you know, we came to this country to give you a better life, you better make sure it's better than the one that we had.

Topaz (09:05.838)
My mom has always been very kind and supportive and not really, she only asked me once after I graduated university, when are you applying to medical school or something? And it was just so, I was like, are you joking? Cause you know, I can't even stand the sight of blood. You're asking me if I'm going to go to medical school. And I still this day, I don't know if she was just testing me to just give it one, that shot of getting medical school, but.

But no, she's been, and my dad has always been saying, you know, he's always said, do what you're passionate about. And, and, you know, we're Jewish heritage. So it's the tikkun olam, which is, you know, are you, are you fixing the world? Are you fixing something? Are you making something better? Um, both my mom is a therapist and my father is an organizational therapist. So it's always, it's always been focused. You know, listen to your podcast. I was thinking about.

creativity and artistry and I have a lot of friends and I remember in my 20s when I was exploring my own path of creativity primarily as a filmmaker. One big question I had, I would ask my friends who were children to artists was, do your parents ask you about the value of what you're making? And their response was no, they just want to know if I'm making something. Are you being creative? In my household is what's the value? Okay, great, you're doing this, but how is this helping someone?

and I'm grateful for them for that.

Srini Rao

Yeah. Well, your parents being therapists, it's been you've probably heard me you may have heard me ask this question. I always wonder if kids who are raised by therapists are immune to the bullshit that the rest of us go through. And also, the other thing is like, this is another one that comes up with me for anybody who is like a therapist, psychologist, like when you're dealing with your parents, do you ever have this moment of like, stop being a fucking therapist and just be my mom or be my dad?

Topaz (10:45.294)
Yeah.

Mm -mm.

Topaz (11:01.422)
Of course. I mean, yes. And I'm going to reserve my judgment of therapist because my mom is one in respect to her and her work. But I went to a lot of therapists in my childhood because my parents got divorced when I was very young, three, four. And from the very earliest days of deciding where we would spend time and the schedule, we had to go to different therapists. My mom sent me to her therapist and then my father sent me to his therapist.

that they chose and then both those therapists went to divorce court to decide where we would spend, my brother and I would spend our time. So from a very young age, I was going to therapy and then, you know, I even went to therapy when I was 14, 15 with my dad because I didn't feel we were spending time enough with him. And then obviously as a young adult, my twenties, and I always had this awkward relationship with therapists because I remember as a very young age going and them going, uh -huh, uh -huh.

Uh -huh. And I'm thinking, why, why am I fucking here? I'm just talking and where's it going? Where's the feedback loop? Where's the advice? Where's the, you know, stop the analysis. Um, that was my early impressions and it did kind of extend sometimes with my mom, but, um, yeah, I mean, what can I tell you? I think sometimes maybe we do, like, maybe we do the work we most need to do on ourselves, but we offer to others, you know?

Srini Rao

Yeah. Yeah.

Topaz (12:29.934)
And so sometimes it makes me think of, you we're not necessarily the creative work we do. I've seen a lot of works of genius, but the person who made them is not aware of how great or how genius they are. And we can talk about that, but I've learned to like separate the works of genius from the person making them. And same thing with our work, you know, I guess I don't know how that bodes well for me in terms of making a book that explores intimacy, but I know that.

The seed was laid in for my relationship with my parents and my desire to find connection.

Srini Rao

One of the very early things you say that caught my attention when you say looking back now, it's clear that this was what was missing between my parents real intimacy, the trust that's born of it, the willingness to be vulnerable that it affords the powerful connection facilitates, but I didn't know that at age four, having never had it modeled for me, I didn't know what real intimacy looked like. And I think the reason that that struck me so much was because I felt like you were describing my own experience as an Indian kid because

like intimacy is not modeled in any way at all in Indian household for numerous reasons. One, our parents hadn't arranged marriage. Two, like I think I've seen my parents kiss each other like once and it was well into my 30s and I was like, oh, that's disgusting. I hope I never see that again because it was such an awkward moment. Like I've never seen them be intimate with each other. And I wonder like I know you've kind of alluded to the long term impact it had on you. What is the long term impact of

Topaz (13:47.534)
You

Srini Rao

a kid not having intimacy modeled for him or her when they're little, and how does that play out in adult life?

Topaz (14:11.214)
So a book that's informed me is The Legacy of Divorce. I don't remember the author, I read this about 20 years ago, but that really informed me because it said, it suggests that when you're young and you see your parents divorce or whatnot and they take center stage and now you're supporting them, your mindset as you grow up is that old relationships will end and they'll end in a bad way and this is just how it works. And that's been my mindset. But then you speak to other...

people who've been born in certain families where the parents are still together and they don't see that everything has to end badly. They're not assuming, you know, everything I entered into was, oh, this is going to end bad. How's this going to end? You know, it's not a question if it'll end or if it'll end badly, just how's it going to end badly? Like which way is it going to go? That was kind of inevitable because that's what I saw as a young person. I think the same thing for, in terms of intimacy and our connection is what is model for us. And if we don't have other inputs, then we're going to follow down the same path.

And I think that's what's beautiful about this project that we have. I don't know if you've seen any of the videos of the end on our, on our YouTube and all that, but these conversations last 10 years, these pairs having these intimate conversations where you see their faces at the same time and you can really get a sense of their connection. This library, this archive of conversations becomes an incredible, powerful tool in people's lives. And I know that now because we're in our 10th year and our audience comes, they tell us this, you know, through direct messages and.

chats, but also when they come and participate in the end, people tell us, my relationship now was informed from watching one of your videos seven years ago. And remember, partner are playing the car games and having these conversations. So now they come into a production for instance, and the, the level of communication is that much more elevated. What I call emotional articulation is that well -practiced because they've seen these other references.

Right. And, and where do we practice intimacy? Where do we practice better conversation? Where do we just practice the act of sitting in discomfort, emotional discomfort? Where and how to deal with that. And so primarily we get that in fam in our families. And if your family is not the 0 .001 % that's amazing at that, you're kind of out there to figure it out yourself. But fortunately you have this book, we have this 10 years of archive of conversations. And I think that's a real nice offering. Right. But we are shaped by.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Topaz (16:34.158)
what we see and what we're exposed to. And so therefore it's nice to expose yourself to different things and see, oh, there's different possibilities and there's different toolkits and there's different methods to, to handle this. And, and ultimately what you practice, you get good at, but how do you know what to practice if, if you're not shown different, you know, methods or styles or ways of, of handling something.

Srini Rao

Yeah, why do you think I do this show is just like an ongoing attempt to resolve all my childhood trauma. Yeah, thanks. Well, I mean, in all honesty, like the the perspectives I've gotten are ones that, you know, to your point, I wasn't supposed to. So as a follow up to that, you made a really good point, like, you know, where do we learn this? And one of the things that has always shocked me is how we kind of like overlook these sort of fundamental skills to be human.

Topaz (17:00.206)
Totally. Happy to be here. Glad to be here.

Srini Rao

In our own education system, they're virtually non -existent. Like, it's like, hey, here's how you add, here's how you find a derivative, but we'll never teach you how to ask a girl out on a date. Tell me, you know, based on having written this book, the project that you've done, the work that you've done on all the research, like what would you integrate into, you know, sort of primary education curriculum to start to nurture this in younger people so that they grow up being emotionally literate?

Topaz (17:53.71)
practice of listening. The practice of listening. Like even the questions, so I'm offering these 12 questions even more, even how to write good questions, even that ultimately an AI will do. Right? And many of the things you mentioned that we learned in school, AI is going to do that. The computers are going to do that. You want to calculate, you want to even speak another language. I mean, you could talk into Google translate and it spits it out in Portuguese or Chinese if you want. I mean Mandarin, right? So,

Srini Rao

Mm -hmm.

Topaz (18:21.806)
Oh, more and more, what is more necessary for us to practice is being human. And what makes us unique is our ability to have emotions and articulate emotions and to share things that are different, right? To see things from a different perspective and communicate those differences, right? And when there's differences, sometimes there's conflicts, we have different understandings, but to sit in that discomfort, to communicate and see where are the synergies. That's what makes us humans really remarkable and different because a lot of the things that we've been taught,

And like AI is going to do that. Even the questions in this book, AI will come up with great questions to ask. But the core component next is the aspect of listening, of taking in, of hearing someone and their experiences and their feelings and not responding with your head, but actually responding with your heart. Cause the head is built to protect you, but the heart is built to connect you. How do we practice connecting more?

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Yeah, I love that you brought that up about AI because that was literally one of my first thoughts was I was going to dump this into chat GPT and be like, build me a custom model to, you know, simulate this process. But one of the things I realized with AI, and I've mentioned this was that the power in AI actually doesn't lie in it answering your questions. It lies in your ability to have it ask you questions and inform it with that. And it really dramatically changes the way that you work with AI when you stop seeing it as a one -sided sort of digital slave interaction.

Topaz (19:35.052)
Mm -hmm.

Topaz (19:44.142)
No, absolutely. Absolutely. And I mean, even now how we prompt it and have a conversation with it, right? How do you get the most from it is by asking it really good prompts. And the same could be applied to the people in your life. How can I engage for most from this moment with someone who, you know, I work with every day or I grew up with, or, you know, we sleep in the same bed every day and we're building this life together, but how can I access this relationship that we have in a more deep and meaningful way that makes it a more fulfilling?

more satisfying, more resilient. Just like people are getting hired to prompt the different AI machines around, engines around, what about us being equipped to prompt the relationships in our life and gain more value from it? That's...

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah, well, I always say that the most important skills in the age of AI have nothing to do with AI. They're literally the things that make us human. The very things you're talking about this in this book are effectively foundational principles for AI and human interaction as well. So let's get deeper into this. You said that you've identified five key components shared by the most effective questions that people ask each other. Talk to us about those and kind of

Topaz (20:43.374)
Yeah, yeah, I think so too.

Srini Rao

what each of them leads to and why these are so effective. Because like I said, when I saw this, I was like, okay, this is kind of almost unconsciously what I am doing as an interviewer. I've just never seen it verbalized like this.

Topaz (21:06.286)
Sure. Yeah, I mean, this comes from basically trial and error of 10 years of creating the space for people to have these intimate conversations. And then, you know, at some point, year one, year two, I was thinking, okay, why is this thing working? Like, why? This is something that's innate to me and feels natural, but why is this working and how can I make it better? Right? And then obviously in the process of writing the book was even more distillation of that. And ultimately, in terms of...

Asking ourselves questions in the context of a relationship. You're to ask your partner, you ask your dad, your best friend, your mom, um, coworker, a question. There's five parts. One is, and this is, let's start with a very simple one. Don't ask a binary question. Yes, no, there's nothing that's going to end the conversation quicker than like, yes, no, done. I don't want to talk to you. You know, I don't want to talk. Right. You have a good day. Yes. You know, are you happy? No. Yes. Fine. Done. We're out. Right. No binary questions.

Another one is, this is actually quite big. It's like, okay, let's ask what's really unique about, let's ask connective questions. Ones that reflect and acknowledge the person or the relationship of the two people who are asking an answer. Right? If I ask you, Shrenaf, what scares you? And your mom says, Shrenaf, what scares you? And the bartender says, hey, Shrenaf, what scares you? You say snakes, snakes scare me. Doesn't matter who's asking you, the same thing scares you. But if I ask you...

What do you think scares us both? Or what do you think we're both scared of? Right? That immediately acknowledges our relationship, our connection, or the space between us. Right? And you'll answer differently to me than to your mom, than to the bartender. Right? So make the question reflective or, you know, acknowledge the unique relationship that you have. Third one is don't ask a question with an agenda. Why are you always so angry?

Somebody really wants to answer that question. Why are you always so angry? Or you know someone who's coming at you if you're coming at someone or sometimes You know lawyers say don't ask a question. You don't know the answer to well Okay, so someone asked you a question. They already know the answer your your instincts subconsciously or consciously is why are you asking me this? What is this a test? Right, why are you testing me? So don't ask questions with an agenda or a judgment you want to offer questions as a gift?

Topaz (23:28.974)
as a gift and underline that as a curiosity. Like you're offering something as a gift. It's much easier to shake a hand, um, that's open than to shake a hand that's got a finger pointing at you. Right. Another one is look, our minds are, this is the, this is the fourth one is our minds are, are like, are like dogs that chase sticks. You know, you throw the stick, the dog's going to chase it. You ask it a question, your mind is going to answer it.

Right? The sticks are the questions. So if I want to say, why do we fight so much? I'm throwing the stick into like a mud puddle. Right? Why do we fight so much? I'll give you a whole, my mind's going to give you a whole list of why we fight so much. Instead, why don't I ask, what's our biggest challenge right now and what is it teaching us? Now I'm throwing the stick on a nice grassy hill part with a nice view. There's something for us to discuss there that's constructive.

Be really conscious of the type of questions we ask and skew them in a way that gives you agency and makes them constructive. When you wake up in the morning and go, ah, fuck man, I gotta go do that. You don't realize you actually just asked yourself a question, which was, what shitty thing do I have to do today? Even if you have a horrible day lined up, if you woke up in the morning and before you just, we are always answering questions. Be conscientious of the questions you ask. So in the morning you go, you know what?

What's, I know I got a bad day today, but what's the best part of the day? What's, what's the one moment I'm really going to cherish? Oh, great. I'm going to meet my friend for five minutes, have a tea. You know, what's the question you're asking? Is it constructive? So if you find yourself like in a space that you want to ask someone a question, make it a constructive one. Right. And the last one is it's really nice when you can connect to things that are not usually connected. So it's almost like neuroplasticity of the mind where you can connect two neural nodes together.

that are not usually connected and then your mind is forced to connect them. So asking a question, you know, what is your favorite memory from your worst relationship? Do not usually connect those two things, right? What about, what's your, you know, what is, these are really simple examples that are more like for individuals, but it shows you a really good example, like what does earning money cost you?

Topaz (25:54.35)
What is, you know, what's your favorite lie? You love telling yourself. Right? So making them kind of two disparate things that work against each other together. And then your mind is going to explore this new pattern, this new space. And another version of that is putting yourself in other people's shoes. True enough. What do you think is the hardest thing being my friend? Or what do you think, what do you think is the hardest thing being your friend?

Srini Rao

Hmm.

Topaz (26:22.926)
What do you think is the hardest thing being your friend? That's going to put you into all your friend's shoes, looking at you. Right? When was the last time I disappointed, when was the last time you, you disappointed me? So now you have to be in my shoes thinking about when was the last time I disappointed that guy that he probably got hurt. So, you know, putting in each other's shoes, in each other's perspective helps create another space of exploration that we don't normally go into.

So those are generally like the five parts that help create a good question in terms of relationship. And that's outlined in the book I've seen and all that. Does that land? Does that resonate?

Srini Rao

Well, let's get in. Yeah, no, no, absolutely. Like, it was funny because like when you're like, what is your favorite memory from your worst relationship? I was like, I remember with these great pictures, my friends, like the thing that came to my friends like wouldn't have mattered who the girl was. The backdrop is beautiful. You guys were at Pebble Beach. He's like any girl would have made this picture look amazing. It didn't. That was literally what came to mind. It wasn't anything about her. But at that moment just made me laugh thinking.

Topaz (27:19.95)
Hahaha!

Srini Rao

Well, let's get into the questions themselves, because the very first question is, what are your three favorite memories of me and why do you cherish them? And you go on to say that a tree is only as strong as its roots. The deeper down into the earth these roots go, the taller the tree can grow and the more resilient it becomes to the elements. A conversation between partners is no different. A relationship exists in a continuous push and pull between the past and future. It starts at point A with partners falling in love. And for as long as it lasts, moves towards a distant C.

hopes and desires for the future that those partners share with many points in between. So what is the power of this? And I thought about this with my dad and I was thinking about my favorite day, like very specific days that I vividly remember.

Topaz (28:18.414)
What's what what what where I can go in many directions here, where do you want me to go like what?

Srini Rao

Well, why is this one? This is I can't even imagine like many people do this. I can't even imagine my parents sitting down having this conversation like it's comical to think about them engaging in these kinds of questions. Yeah, just knowing what they're like. Well,

Topaz (28:37.358)
Really? Why? But how hard would it be to sell them on it? Like, say, hey.

Srini Rao

I could tell them about it and I think they would probably, just the thought of them sitting down to do this makes me laugh because it seems so, they would probably engage in part of it and my dad would be like, all right, I'm bored, let's call it.

Topaz (29:00.43)
You know, I want to send you the family edition your way and just as a thought experiment, you should just pull it out as a game. Be like, hey, I got a game from one of my guests. Can we, what's this question? Just choose a question and see where it takes. Cause sometimes it's that easy. Sometimes it's that easy, especially when it's presented as a game. Cause then there's no winning or losing. There's no right or wrong. And then the question starts to drop and one of you will want to explore it. And the ones who are hesitant.

are just not practiced at it and that's fine, but at least being in the space where the questions are offered creates a conversation that might not be articulated with words, but it is. Even if you say, what are your three favorite memories we share or not? And let's say someone doesn't want to talk about that. They are thinking about it and you're thinking about it. Even if you don't say to each other, you're both in that spot for a moment and you are thinking about it. And so already their conversation, at least with yourself begins, right? Which is...

What are the three favorite members you share? Why are we not talking about it? Isn't that interesting? What a shame. Or what a missed opportunity, more like. But I mean, I think we shaped these. The reason I asked about where you want me to go with this is because each of these questions are struck. These are the meat and potato, the questions that I've seen for the last 10 years that really work. They lead to cathartic conversation, both in terms of the questions themselves, but also in terms of the placement in the sequence.

because there is a power to the sequence, right? If someone comes to you and says, why do you love me? Out of the blue. First of all, you're gonna be wondering why the fuck they're asking you why do you love me when I'm washing the dishes? Like, where's this coming from? If you play a game and it's a random question, then the context is set, that's already been answered.

We're playing a game, so I know why you're asking me. And now the space has been created for, you know, the permission for one person to say and one person to receive. But even further, if it just comes out of the blue and we're playing a game, why do you love me? Okay, I'll give you a response. But if it's built on a certain architecture, which in this case of our question is the last question, it'll take us further. We will go deeper. And that kind of speaks about what I mean with the tree, like with the roots.

Topaz (31:21.71)
If we build this conversation on the architecture and the base, the foundation of trust and respect and acknowledging the magic of the synergies we created in life by virtue of us connecting, then as we then step into, those are the first three questions, then we start exploring conflict and the second three questions and how we handle that. And then we go into really the vulnerability, which is seven and eight, which is kind of the core.

climax, if you will, which is, what is the pain in me you wish you could heal and why? The eighth is what's one experience you wish we never had and why? And then you come out into landing the plane with gratitude and appreciate acknowledging each other. What are we learning from each other? And then the last one is why do you love me? That answer of why do you love me is going to be so much more profound than if I just asked it in the beginning or in the middle, right? Because we've gone through this journey.

Srini Rao

Yeah.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I definitely noticed that the like you pointed out the architecture of this is that it kind of is almost like peeling an onion, like you're going deeper and deeper and deeper to get to the core. So one of the things you talk about in the first question is, you know, what are you hesitant to ask me and why? And you say in relationships, it's in the dark where things grow out in the open, in the light is where you actively build your bond together. And then you say delaying an important conversation until the right time appears.

To give this issue more time to fester more time for pressure to build potentially making the conversation even more painful Than it would have been if you had brought it up right away and I can tell you this from you know The girlfriend that I dated before I you know went to graduate school. I knew I was gonna leave the Bay Area I avoided the conversation for the entire year and I always thought to myself that was by far one of the most selfish things I'd ever done knowing that I was gonna leave and knowing that I was gonna end this relationship and Letting it go on for a whole year

Topaz (33:20.43)
So are you saying if you had this conversation you would have told her that instead of being hesitant, you would not have put it aside? Are you saying that you wish you told her earlier and not have...

Srini Rao

I think I wish I think we would have saved ourselves a lot of headaches and drama. Because it was pretty much the whole relationship was very toxic on numerous levels. But this in my mind, I look back at it and I was like, by because I can only imagine, you know, now looking back to put myself in her shoes, it's like, wait, this guy will not have a conversation about this, like, thing that is looming over us. And, you know, like, if I were in a situation like that, I'd probably be anxious to.

Topaz (33:58.734)
So this is a paradigm I have, I'm still exploring it, but it's that I kind of see it on a spectrum of are you in concept, are you in reality? And I don't mean, reality's not the right word, but are you really dealing with what is? And I think a lot of us are dealing in concept where we're in a relationship that fits like a mold or an idea, and we're not really talking about what is really happening. And so...

This question, what he hasn't asked me, and some of these questions like, you know, what's the biggest challenge relationship? What's a sacrifice you made that I haven't acknowledged? These are all questions that are pulling and exploring, like, are we kind of just hanging in this concept zone where, you know, I play this character, you play this character, and then all the other things that are really happening are emotions, how we're changing, how our expressions are changing, how our situation is changing.

We don't really talk about that because we're scared of this discomfort level. We're scared of having a fight. We're scared of a conflict. I mean, I don't know why you were hesitant to have that conversation with the partner, but how much of concept are we living in and how much of dealing with what is? And my experience of life is that you can live in concept for only so long because then something comes along and hits you hard. It could be cancer. It could be an affair. It could be breaking a leg. It could be who knows what.

that all of a sudden like forces you to deal with what is, right? And either you're going to wait for that big thing and the longer we stay in concept, the longer we stay in kind of this rigidity of holding up a frame of what it should be, the less we're spending time on what is, the less time we spend on what is, the harder that frame of what should be like gets stronger. And therefore reality has to hit it that much harder. It's got to be that much bigger that hits you. You hear stories all the time of...

you know, people who are workaholics working all their life and then they get cancer and they realize that cancer is a gift because now they have to slow down, take care of their body, sit with their feelings, spend time with their families, their kids, and not be, you know, running after whatever work mode there are. Cancer came in, knocked that concept of whatever they're living up to, to actually deal with what is. And I don't know if I'm answering your question, but that's the riff that I feel on that these, at least three questions, the whole questions are really like.

Topaz (36:20.494)
pulling at the heart string of what is happening in your relationship in the space around you. Does that make sense? Does that land for you or what do you think?

Srini Rao

Yeah, it does. I I think that the thing that strikes me most about this set of questions is these are the hardest ones to to initiate. Like they're the ones that we avoid, which makes me wonder, like, what is it that causes people to avoid difficult conversations, particularly when it comes to, you know, partnerships like intimate partnerships? Like, why do they resist these?

Topaz (36:51.534)
Because I think people, well, we're human animals and I think human animals are driven for comfort. We're like driven to survive, not to thrive. That's like a cliche that everyone says, but it's true. We're driven to be comfortable. And on the flip side of that is, I don't think it's clear what the payoff of, the payoff is of stepping into discomfort, right? But I'll give you one example. I'll give you one thing now. If you look at your life and the listeners look at their life, anytime they had an accomplishment,

Anytime that they're really, if they look back in one of their proudest moments, happiest moments, I promise you that whether it's hours before, days before, months before, there was a great deal of anxiety because they had to overcome something in order to achieve that thing. And the pride and joy they feel from their accomplishment comes from overcoming that challenge, facing that anxiety and doing something with it. And the same thing is with our relationships, right? I mean, why is makeup sex so great?

Because we had a big fight, we overcame it, and now we know we're stronger. And that sex was a manifestation of that union, of that development, that growth. So I think that we try to stay in comfort, but we don't realize by staying in comfort, we're not getting the payoffs of a more amplified way of, sense of being alive. You know, having these emotions and having these conversations and also like sometimes we get in these conversations and we fall into the zone of like, who is right?

and having to come to a conclusion, you don't have to do that. It's not about being right or wrong. It's about being in the moment and feeling the emotion and sitting in it. We're so focused in our society of getting results, finding the answers, that we're denying ourselves of having emotional experiences that just make being alive that much richer. Richer.

Srini Rao

Well, let's talk about this next piece, which are the seventh and eighth questions, which center around pain, you know, the seventh one being what is the pain in me you wish you could heal and why, and then you go on to say trying to heal our partner's pain is usually an exercise in futility. And then you talk about the second one, which is what is one experience you wish you never had and why, and one person's internal wound can have a profound emotional effect on their partner, even though it was caused by something that only one of you experienced directly, it can insinuate itself into the space.

Topaz (38:37.742)
That - yeah.

Srini Rao

between the two of you becoming something of a shared cross that's borne by both partners. So talk to me about this because to your point, like, you know, trying to heal somebody's pain is pointless. We all think, I think we all come to every relationship with whatever broken parts we have or trauma. So what is the value of exploring, you know, these kinds of painful experiences together?

Topaz (39:31.566)
Because, and it's not, yeah, it's.

That question, number seven, what's the pain in me you wish could heal and why, has always been one of the most powerful questions that we have in our toolkit, if you will. And it's over 1 ,200 conversations we've held and it's like, it just lands. It lands and it works. So why does it land and it work? And this is not just romantic relationships, it's every kind of relationship.

And I think it's because we humans are mirrors for each other, right? You will never see your own eyeballs, right? Yes, in the mirror, but you'll never actually see your own face. Like you can't, you can see everyone else's face, right? We are reflections for each other. And that pain that we have while we try to hide it from ourselves because it's painful, other people sense it and see it.

And they can reflect it back to us. They can reflect it back to us in any way they choose. They could do it in a loving, healing way. They could do it in an antagonistic way. They can use it against you. But the people around you are reflections of you, to you. You see yourselves through them. And we have that in the practice of asking questions. And I offer this because this is the question, and I think it works, is because when you are intimate with someone, you know, when you're connected with someone,

You have a sense, you can feel their pain by just association. The only thing is you can't heal it. Only they can heal it themselves. What you can do is hold a space for them for healing. When I have an argument with my wife, and it's tough, right? We've all been there, you're like, ugh. Sometimes I say, wait, am I trying to solve this problem for her that only she can solve? Because that's not really helping her. Maybe what's helping her is am I creating this space?

Topaz (41:34.606)
for her to solve it herself. It's a different thing. Am I solving it for her? Well, that's not going to work because she's going to solve it for herself. Or am I holding the space for her to solve it for her? And that's kind of what the seventh question is. What is the pain? And it acknowledges the fact that, look, I can't heal in you, but I see it in you and I can hold a space for you. And even by me articulating it for you helps you in the aspect of bringing light to something that we try to hide in the dark. When we bring it to the light, when we deal with what is,

We can put more energy into healing it and growing from it versus putting energy and trying to hide from it. And then the question right after that is what's one experience you wish? That's where we start connecting between our mutual pain, right? What's one experience that you wish we never had? Something that by virtue of our connection, our synergy, we've experienced something together. And what, you know, is there anything you wish we didn't do? And there's sometimes it could be a connection between those two questions.

Srini Rao

So you know the other question struck me, the story in particular that struck me was this one where you talk about, you know, what is one experience you can't wait for us to share and why? And you say if a shared past is a relationship's anchor, dreams of the future are the wind and sails, shared history may be your foundation, but what kind of home are you hoping that foundation will support? And it was the story you shared about being in the therapist office with your partner at the time who said, do you guys want to rip off the band -aid now?

And it was like, I think the thing that struck me most about that was like, wow, what an amicable way to put an end to things like it. It wasn't this like just bitter resentful ending.

Topaz (43:15.054)
Yeah, I actually just got an email from the person describing that story and she's very kind and grateful. And you know, there's always a love there, right? There's always a love with the people that you've shared on the journey with. But maybe what being in love with is also that we're on, that our journeys are going to the same space and we're both motivated by that. And I don't know, I learned that from that lesson. It was a very...

difficult breakup because I did love that person and I love them. But we weren't inspired by the same thing. And I think it's important to, you know, we are traveling these journey, these paths, right? I mean, I don't know if I'm, what I'm saying is too foo foo up in the air, but look, we're all having experiences. We're walking down the path of life. And at some point your trail may or may not diverge. And the question is, are we going to the same place? And now we are we, are we motivated by that? Are we excited about that? And not, you don't.

There's many places you can go. You can have personal goals that you have, but do we have a collective goal that we're working on? And I do think that's a motivating factor for us to building one's life together and bringing more energy to the relationship. Because I think we're always growing. My dad has a saying, or maybe he's quoting someone else, but he's always said, son, you're either growing or you're dying. It's either you're growing or you're dying. And in a relationship, is your relationship growing or it's dying?

What are you creating together in union with someone else that's unique, it's a synergy, it's like a unique thumbprint. If you connected with someone else, you wouldn't create the same thing as if you connected with me, right? And we should acknowledge that. We're not all zeros and ones, we're all not identical. Let's leave identical nodes to the AI. We're all unique, we're all different, and when we connect, we create new synergies, we create new possibilities. Let's acknowledge that and say, where are we going together? Does it both motivate us? You know, and that can bring more fuel.

to the relationship and more energies to work on the things that you need to fix.

Srini Rao

Well, let's explore this last question. You say if this was our last conversation, what would you want me to never forget? And before we dive into the question itself, I want to bring back a clip from a previous episode. Take a listen.

Topaz (46:24.878)
Who is that? Was that Paul Conti?

Srini Rao

No, that was Frank Ostasevsky, who, if I remember correctly, runs a Zen hospice.

Topaz (46:34.606)
Okay, beautiful. Yeah, I mean that's I couldn't agree with that more and I think the pro to me the the Did you have a question on that or could I react to that? Well, what I react to that when I hear that is absolutely I mean I feel like that's I couldn't agree more because that's basically also what I allude to in the book around that question, which is And it comes down to what's the chorus like we need to be present and grateful to what we have We have to be grateful and present like

Srini Rao

No, no, go ahead. You go ahead.

Topaz (47:03.822)
You, again, we're waiting. We don't want to have that uncomfortable conversation of telling your dad how much you love them. So what are you waiting for? You're going to wait till they're on their deathbed and they can barely hear you? You're going to wait till they die of a heart attack and you missed it and you're just going to tell them in your meditations? We're going to wait for, for what? Are we grateful for the fact that they're in our life and are we present to the moment that it is fleeting? Every moment is once in a lifetime. It ain't never coming back. So what are you doing with that moment? And if you have a moment to share.

acknowledgement of this other soul that's walked on the path with you, whatever, in whatever way, shape or form, before they move on or you move on, what are we waiting for? And we're going to miss that. Those moments do not come often where that someone is dying, you have the time to take it in and they can have the ability to understand you and take you heart to heart and you can commute. We're not granted that. And yet we're waiting as though that's the moment you're going to share it. And it's okay. And I think...

In our society, oftentimes it's offered like, oh no, it's cheesy. Why are you bringing so deep or intense? It's like, you can find a moment in a space and just say, hey, this, I just want you to know this. And that's what, in essence, we've been creating, right? In our conversations, in the practice of this book, of asking these 12 questions, is giving us permissions to be grateful, to be present in the moment, and to articulate that. And to not miss those moments. To not miss those moments. I mean.

I had so many friends that have passed away this past year. Parents of my friends, my friends themselves. In the book I talk about my good friend Tim Hetherington that passed away. And just, you just, I mean, we're all gonna die, right? So how do we share the moments we do have together?

Topaz (49:01.934)
Did I just bum you out?

Srini Rao

No, no. I wanted to pause because it was such a thoughtful comment that you made.

Topaz (49:11.02)
Yeah.

Srini Rao

Let's finish this up with two final things. In addition to sort of the depth of connection that these conversations have created, what have you seen as the changes that people who have gone through this process have experienced? Has it prevented relationships from ending? I'm guessing in some cases it probably forced an end that should have come sooner.

Topaz (49:34.99)
Totally. Yep. What I've noticed, and this is what's really beautiful about this project that my team and I are so honored to have is, you we've been doing this for 10 years. Uh, not only do we have kind of the, the breadth of different kinds of relationships and different kinds of people who participate, but we also have the depth because people come back year after year. You know, Ben and Cedric have been on seven or eight times. Andrew and Keisha are the same. So we, we have.

um, relationship that we follow for a long time. One thing that I've noticed in the last two years, and I kind of alluded early on is,

Brea and Eric, right? Brea and Eric applied to be on The And production in 2016. They were seniors in college. They were dating. I might be getting this not exactly correct. So apologies, Brea and Eric, if they're listening, but roughly they're in college dating. They love The And. They want to be on The And. We couldn't get them in. They end up getting married and doing their own And version. They shot, they filmed themselves for their wedding. Six, seven years later, they fly from DC.

to Atlanta to have an end experience and their conversation is informed by the videos they've been watching. Their conversation is informed from the playing the card game. And I'm sitting there and I'm going, oh my God, their ability to articulate and to sit in the emotion and have these conversations is well practiced. And then I realize that's because they're playing the card game, that's because they're watching these videos. And...

That's, I don't know, I can't tell you as an individual, as a creative soul walking and creating and making work and realizing that you're hopefully positively impacting people's lives by increasing the, you know, the depth and the joy and the exploration of their relationships. It's a good thing to feel. I feel really good about it. I feel honored about it. I feel like, I feel like, I hate saying it, but I feel like I could die and I've done my contribution.

Topaz (51:43.406)
We started this whole thing with my dad's parents about what's the value offering you have. I feel like I've offered value. And yeah, I feel good about that. I'm grateful for it.

Srini Rao

So two last questions. How has it changed your own relationships to have engaged in this process? Not just intimate relationships, but relationships at large.

Topaz (52:15.246)
Hmm. First, first thought comes up is kind of feel like it's in me, right? Like this drive and this hunger to for intimacy and therefore I had it even before making the, the series, the end or the card games, you know, traveling around the world with a camera, talking to people, much like you're doing that by asking them questions on your podcast for so long. So kind of feel like it's in me, right?

So I've always been, I can tell you that I know I should use the card games when I don't want to use the card games. When I get in a fight with my wife or something, it's like, Oh, you don't even want to have the conversation. But then I just pull out the card games. It's like lubrication just takes the edge off of, look, none of us is thinking about what question asked. We're just choosing these randomly and opens up the space for a conversation. Now, do I have those conversations with my family all the time? Um,

Not, no, not really. Um, but with those that are up for it, it's, uh, it's always moving. My one brother, Sapphire, he loves playing the game. He's always up for it. I have another brother who hates playing the game. Um, you know, it's my dad, my dad is great. My dad, you know, he watched the interactive site. Then he watched the, he came to a live experience because we have a live experience of this and he even played the card games. And.

Finally, I brought him into a production and he came into a production and he sat in and after the production he goes, son, this is amazing. Son, this is like sex. You can describe sex all day long, but until you have sex, you don't understand what it is. And we just had a conversation we would never have had. And since then, he's actually came on board. He now loves the card games and he goes through different decks. He's like, son, this is really good. This is a really good question.

So it's nice to get that. And sometimes people closest to you are surprised by the work you do. Sometimes the people closest to you, you're surprised at the connection you have with them. You just need the keys to access it and the questions to do that.

Srini Rao

Yeah, I realized I said two last questions, but I realized there's one I didn't ask. And this is for my personal curiosity. I assume that you've had people from a wide range of different cultures go through this process. And I was curious how it differs across cultures, particularly those like the ones that I come from, where this kind of intimacy is far from normalized.

Topaz (54:46.606)
What I love is we're really good at letting humans be humans. I'm talking about we mean my experience design studio, the skin deep. Well, we create this experience at the end, people come in. And sometimes when I have a director who calls me after day one of production, they're like, Topaz, it's not working. They're not having the conversations. They're not really, no one's crying. I'm like, hold on a sec. It's not working because you have an agenda of how you think it should work. These are humans being humans.

If you're in a space where the parents, your parents for you mentioned are, you know, culture, they don't want to talk, then that is the space that they're in. And that's okay. Right. I'm not, I don't, I'm not saying that we should have certain kinds of conversations. What I'm saying is that we should sit in certain spaces that are conduits for conversations and whatever happened in that space is what should happen. Is what can happen. And that's a market, you know, and then you know, you're like, Oh, that's interesting.

I'm watching this other family, they had this conversation. In my family, we don't or we converse this way. Interesting. Do I want to do anything about it? Am I okay with that? Am I getting the nutrients that I need or that I want from what environment? Do I want to change it? And the choice. But bringing more conscientiousness to the spaces we're in is helpful. And so in certain cultures, yeah, they're not going to talk about certain things. That's okay. And certain cultures, they will. But I think ...

just have just sitting in the space.

Because even though if we don't say it, you're thinking it and the other person's thinking it and you're looking at them and there is another type of conversation happening. And that's really what it's about is that can we sit in those spaces together? And so we'll look, we, we filmed this in nine countries already and they all work in different ways. You know, we filmed in, um, Quebec. So we had the French Canadians talking the way they talk about sex is so much freer and so much.

Topaz (56:47.212)
L 'Asie Faire and then let's say the American audience generally, right? You have certain cultures that are not going to talk about certain things. And that's beautiful. I mean, everything is, I guess what I'm saying is I think it's important to ask the questions and send the space, not necessarily what the answers are or the reactions are.

Srini Rao

Amazing. This has been one of my favorite conversations I've had this year. Just beautiful, thought provoking, insightful. So I have one final question, which I know you've heard me ask. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

Topaz (57:28.654)
Yeah, man, I've been thinking about that.

Topaz (57:38.67)
I mean, I don't know. I don't know. The only thing that comes to mind is kind of what I said is that every moment is once in a lifetime, therefore it's unmistakable. You know, it's like how much can we drop into each moment? I'm not, by no means am I a pro at this and I'm not going to pretend that I meditate six hours a day and that I'm like Zen and nothing runs through my head and I'm present in every moment. But every moment is unmistakable because it's never replicated.

Every moment is once in a lifetime. Everything is unmistakable. It's our ability to be aware of it. That's what makes it special. That's what comes up for me.

Srini Rao

Beautiful. Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story, your wisdom and your insights with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you, your work, the book and everything else you're up to?

Topaz (58:34.126)
So the book is available, ebook, audiobook, and everywhere, Amazon, et cetera. The skindeep .com is a great place to come see our products and experiences. And obviously social media is the Skindeep. And personally, it's topazadesis .com. But really, our platform is the skindeep .com. Just look that up and find it anywhere you find your social media. And this was awesome. Thank you so much for your time and your questions. And it was really good at chat.

Srini Rao

Yeah, amazing. And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.