Vanessa Van Edwards | The Secret Language of Charismatic Communication

0:01:17 - (Srini Rao): Vanessa. Welcome back to the unmistakable creative thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

0:01:43 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): It's so good to be back.

0:01:45 - (Srini Rao): It is my pleasure to have you think you know, you are probably one of my favorite podcast guests. I remember, I think when I was on your show, we were like when my older mate Matt asked about you, I was like, what's Vanessa like? I was like, Vanessa is like the hot girl who doesn't know she's hot. She's really nice.

0:02:05 - (C): It's like the nicest thing to say.

0:02:07 - (Srini Rao): But all joking aside, you have a new book out called Cues, all of which we will get into. Last time I asked you about your social group in high school, and this time I wanted to start by asking you what did your parents do for work and how did that end up shaping and influencing the choices that you've made with your life and your career?

0:02:26 - (C): Fun question.

0:02:26 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I've never been asked that. So both of my parents are entertainment lawyer producers, so both of my parents are very analytical. And what's funny is I think that what shaped me less in their jobs would be more the fact that they got divorced when I was about three and immediately remarried. And I had to switch houses every.

0:02:48 - (C): Three and a half days.

0:02:50 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So I was constantly bouncing back and forth between two totally different families. My dad went on to raise his own family. I was one of four, lived in a totally different neighborhood. My mom, it was just me. She ended up having a very successful career. I was kind of at home alone, so I was bouncing between literally two totally different households. And it made me have to be not only adaptable, but I had to be able to read the adults in the room very quickly because I had literally just been gone.

0:03:22 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): And that, I think, is why I'm.

0:03:23 - (C): So obsessed with reading people. Yeah.

0:03:27 - (Srini Rao): I was going to ask you how you navigate the social dynamics of going back and forth between these two families. What is that process of adaptation and what does it look like day to day? And how do you do that without losing your mind? Because that seems like a lot for a kid to take on.

0:03:41 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): It was so much. There's two ways, I think, that we can be adaptable as humans, which is exactly what happened to me, which is either you're a chameleon, so you go into a place and you completely adopt whatever norms, body language, voice tone, language is being used around you. The other way that you do it is you become staunchly and ruthlessly yourself. So you go in and you're like, I don't care what any of the other people are doing.

0:04:10 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): This is me, except me for who I am or who I'm not. My elementary school years, I was a chameleon, and it was exhausting. That's when I had my most awkwardness at school. I had hives all over my body. So I'd have to often go to school in, like, turtlenecks and long sleeves and pants because I had welts all over my body. I would have panic attacks at school and at home because I was trying so hard to fit in, and it wasn't me.

0:04:36 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): My teenage years, I switched into the second, which I think a lot of teenagers also might have dipped into that ruthlessly myself, and that caused its own problems, because then I had a lot of fights with my parents and my siblings, and so that was very formative because now I feel, like, awkwardness. I joke that I'm a recovering awkward person. As, you know, everyone who's listening, I'm sure, has some kind of awkwardness. That could be awkward silences, that could be not feeling like yourself, that could be feeling like you're being too much of a chameleon, like you're having to adapt to everyone else.

0:05:09 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Everyone's awkwardness dresses up in a different way. Some people become, should they shut down, they hold back. They hide themselves. Other people raise up. They become overly dramatic and over talkative and show offy. And so I think what's really interesting is to think about how does your awkwardness dress up? What do you do? Do you shut down, or do you dial up?

0:05:32 - (C): Yeah.

0:05:33 - (Srini Rao): So your parents, being entertainment lawyers and incredibly analytical, were they naturally charismatic? Communicators?

0:05:40 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): You know, my dad is exceptionally charismatic. I actually just interviewed him on my YouTube channel because I wanted him to talk about his charisma. And my mom has learned charisma, so my mom has learned, and I actually would talk to her about this she's learned the structure of conversation just like a lawyer would, and she knows which conversation starters to use and when. So I think that I might have picked up more on that side. I don't think that I'm naturally charismatic, and so I think that I had to learn soft skills like a foreign language.

0:06:09 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): It just didn't come naturally. So I have to think of conversation starters. Like, I say this word now. Now I do a head tilt. Now I need to eyebrow raise. And so for me, it's much more like trying to learn a foreign language.

0:06:21 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Yeah.

0:06:23 - (Srini Rao): Why do you think it is that certain people are actually naturally charismatic? And how much of that has to do you think with upbringing, environment, parents, peers?

0:06:33 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): There is a little bit of research on this. Now, charisma and leadership are not interchangeable, right? So some leaders are not charismatic, but I think a lot of leaders become leaders because they are charismatic. And some research identifies it. And this is approximate that 70% of our leaders are based on life choices. So how they got there was based on their choices, and 30% is genetic. I don't know exactly how they measure that genetic aspect, but their argument is that most leaders have actually learned to figure out what is charismatic so they can interact with people.

0:07:07 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So when it comes down to the research, what makes someone charismatic? This is the research that I totally opened my eyes to. How people interact was very simple. It finally explained, why are these charismatic people charismatic, which is highly charismatic.

0:07:21 - (C): People rank high in two traits, and.

0:07:24 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): If they rank high in these two traits, people want to be around them. They are high in warmth and competence. And that is that leaders who are warm, open, collaborative, trustworthy, but at the very same time, they're also capable, competent, powerful, and impressive, those are the people we want to be around. And if there's any mismatch or there's an uneven amount of either those things.

0:07:46 - (C): We don't consider them charismatic. Okay.

0:07:49 - (Srini Rao): So that raises a question, as you and I were talking about my obsession, know how Steve Jobs ran Apple? I mean, Steve Jobs was kind of the opposite of warm, and yet he was perceived as highly charismatic. So what explains that paradox?

0:08:04 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So I think so if you read some of the biographies of Steve Jobs, he was very, very high in competence, right? So he, like, off the charts in powerful, impressive, capable, efficient. But he knew how to add just enough warmth to get the job done. And if you read his biography and they break down sort of how he got people on board, some of his discussions with people. Warmth is not just a smiley, bubly person. I think this is the misconception of warm people.

0:08:34 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Yes, there is a warmth that's like smiley and bubbly, and that was never Steve Jobs. But warmth can also be vulnerability. Warmth can also be collaboration. And that's where Steve Jobs got his warmth. My argument and the way that I see this working with him is he was ruthlessly competent, but he knew he could never do it alone. He knew without a doubt that he needed people, that he needed his team, that he hired the best of the best.

0:09:00 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I think that that's the difference between him and maybe just a cold or competent narcissist, someone who's just competent. They could do it all themselves. They don't need anyone. They don't need any help. They can do it better than anyone. Steve Jobs knew other people can do this really well, and I need them. And so his warmth was that he's like, I have big goals. I want to get it done, but I need you.

0:09:24 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): And that's a vulnerability too, right? Saying, like, I need you to do this, and I'm putting my full faith in you that's competence meets warmth.

0:09:33 - (Srini Rao): So random question. Where were you in the birth order amongst all these kids, and how do you get yourself heard?

0:09:42 - (C): Do you want to guess?

0:09:44 - (Srini Rao): I would guess either you're the youngest or in the middle.

0:09:48 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So I am the only of my parents, which is sort of an interesting thing. So my parents, they had me, and I got divorced when I was really young, and then I immediately got an older stepbrother, and then my parents had two younger sisters. So I'm either an only or a middle, depending on how you look at it. Half the time, half my life, I was an only. And then at the other house, I was a middle.

0:10:09 - (Srini Rao): Okay, so in the other house, when you're in the middle, how is it that you get yourself hurt in that situation? Because I remember reading the sections on vocal expression, and we'll get to that, and I remember thinking to myself, I'm like, yeah, my family has one volume. It's loud.

0:10:26 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Yes. So actually, let's talk about vocal power for a second, because I just love it, and I think that I have a younger sister who has a very unique vocal power. So I think about this a lot in terms of our family. So when the research looks at vocal power, we know that an authoritative person does two things. One is they cue you to their vocal power by speaking in their lowest natural register. So right now, I'm working really hard with you speak in my lowest register.

0:10:54 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): When I'm talking to my husband or my daughter, I'll go a little higher up here. And this is still natural for me. But if I were to give my entire interview like this, it would drive you crazy, right? So I'm down here with you because research knows that or when we take up space in our body, when confident people are relaxed, we're in our lowest register. Lower registers are heard without as much volume.

0:11:19 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So this is why a lot of the times in a big group with lots of siblings, actually, the lower you go, the more you'll heard that baritone, is actually heard better. Women often make the mistake of going shrill and that's because they'll go up really high. Can't you hear me?

0:11:35 - (C): Listen to me.

0:11:35 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Everyone listen to me.

0:11:37 - (C): And they go all the way up.

0:11:39 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): In that higher part of the register and that actually makes them harder to hear. Whereas the really powerful people, they speak down here and they get a lot of volume and they can pierce through that noise. That's the first thing is if you want to be heard, especially in a loud room, don't go up here, don't.

0:11:55 - (C): Do it, don't do this.

0:11:56 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): You're better off going lower and deeper. And that actually can help you be heard. The second thing is the other big mistake that people make with their vocal power is they ask instead of say. So the question. Flexion is one of my favorite giveaway cues because when we were doing our lie detection research, so in our lab, we had thousands of people submit videos of themselves lying to us. By the way, this was like the best six months of my life.

0:12:21 - (C): I was so interested.

0:12:24 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I was just like I woke up every day excited to watch these videos. So we had people do a couple of different games with us. So we had them play two truths and a lie. That was one of the games we had them play. So, two truths and a lie. You say two truth statements and one lie. You mix them up and try to get people to guess. One thing that we found is that oftentimes the lie was a question selection.

0:12:44 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): In other words, liars don't believe what they're saying. And so they're asking, do you believe me?

0:12:49 - (C): So it sound like this.

0:12:51 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I coded all these videos, it would be like I grew up in Los Angeles, I'm only child and I'm a vegetarian.

0:13:02 - (C): Yeah.

0:13:03 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): And they would ask that lie. And so the other thing that can happen, especially with siblings, and this is something I talk about with my youngest sister. So the baby of the family, my youngest sister, she speaks a lot in uptalk in the question of flexion. And I think that's because as a baby, she was always asking for things she was literally always asking, listen to me. Play with me. Can I have water? Can I have a cookie? Can I come in?

0:13:26 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): She was always asking things, and so now she's a 20 something professional. And it's hard because she'll often speak and up talk, so she'll say, hi, this is Haley. Can I help you? Oh, nice to hear from you. So the other thing I would recommend for folks is listen to your voicemail and also pay attention to the first ten words out of your mouth. The first ten words out of your mouth should be on the downward inflection or a neutral inflection.

0:13:55 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): It shouldn't be, hi, this is Vanessa. Nice to hear from you. What can I do for you?

0:14:01 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): It shouldn't be up. It should be, hey, this is Vanessa. So good to hear from you.

0:14:06 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): What can I do for you? Right. Like, totally different vocal power. Like most backseat drivers, I'm all about safety. Dad pothole.

0:14:17 - (Srini Rao): Got it.

0:14:17 - (C):

0:14:34 - (D):

0:14:39 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Since 1952, it's in park.

0:14:42 - (C): Right?

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0:15:08 - (D):

0:15:35 - (D):

0:16:03 - (D):

0:16:25 - (C): That's.

0:16:26 - (D):

0:16:35 - (Srini Rao): I want to come back to this. This is particularly fascinating for me as somebody who hosts a podcast. Let's come back to this. What I am curious about is why this was the natural segue to the previous book and what prompted you to write this book as the next one. And I am always fascinated by the research that you're doing to this because it just seems extensive.

0:17:00 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I'm really into big data, and the reason for that is because we use a lot of peer reviewed journals in the books and in my work, which I love. But a lot of the times those are small data sets and also they're peer reviewed. They use internal review board. They're very, very official. If I'm going to do my own research, the one thing I can do if I don't have the IRB, if I'm not peer reviewed, is use a lot of data, the most amount of data we can possibly find. So that's one of the reasons why I try to use big data. It's one of the few perks we have of being independent.

0:17:32 - (C): And then the first question you it's.

0:17:35 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Just personally totally transparently. After I wrote Captivate, I was like, I have nothing else to say. I said it all.

0:17:44 - (C): That was it.

0:17:45 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): There's nothing left. It took everything out of me. I felt like I had shared every story in the depths of my mind and my body. And then two years later, Captivate did really well upon launch. And then it was like, slowly simmering. And then it kind of took off again. There was like this weird I don't know what happened, but it tipped again and people started really buying it. It started to get picked up again.

0:18:08 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): And I started getting all these questions of things that I didn't address in Captivate that I had already researched. And it brought me to this little folder that I started on my desktop 17 years ago, which I never would have guessed that this folder would have been a book 17 years ago. I started clipping what I called curious Cues. Again, I had no idea this end up being booked later. At the time, I was noticing that a lot of bad actors, athletes who were doping, liars in the news, politicians who were lying, not that anyone ever lies in the news, not that politicians ever lie. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

0:18:47 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): But all these scandals were breaking around that time, and I noticed it didn't matter if they were an athlete or a politician or a celebrity, they were using very similar cues and tells for guilt, shame, fear and sadness. I was like, wow, this politician is doing the same thing as that athlete who doped? And so I started clipping them. At the same time, I was noticing on the other end of the spectrum, there were all these really charismatic people again, politicians, athletes, celebrities, and they were using their own set of very charismatic cues that I would watch a keynote.

0:19:22 - (C): And then a Ted Talk, and then.

0:19:24 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): An Ellen interview and then an Oprah interview. And these very charismatic people were using the same cues. And it kind of in my mind, it formed this question that I then kept adding and adding and adding to this folder that maybe there's this universal language of cues like we speak English or we speak Spanish, speak French. Maybe there's also this language that humans speak through our verbal, nonverbal, vocal, and imagery cues.

0:19:52 - (C): And could we code it?

0:19:54 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Could I actually find patterns to create like a dictionary or a glossary so we could speak it more purposefully? That question ended up being the start of cues. Who would have guessed it 14 years later?

0:20:07 - (Srini Rao): Wow. Okay, well, one thing you say at the very beginning of the book is that the number one way to improve your interactions is to send clear cues based on your goals when you need more credibility or to be taken seriously in negotiations, pitches, and important interviews. Dial up competence. Additionally, if you're with someone who appreciates highly intelligent, capable, efficient people, use more competence cues. Now, we talked briefly about competence and warmth, and I know you broke this down into a combination, like you said, of verbal, vocal, nonverbal, and imagery cues.

0:20:41 - (Srini Rao): So let's start by talking specifically about verbal cues. And when you say verbal cues, are we talking just words in general?

0:20:50 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Just words, yes. So verbal cues are just the types of words that we use. And I would also lump in emojis. I know that's a weird one, but emojis and verbal cues are one and the same because we tend to use them in our text, our emails, our chats, our slack.

0:21:04 - (C): Yes.

0:21:06 - (Srini Rao): Okay, so in the interest of my own self interest, I'm going to ask you how I use verbal cues more effectively when I'm sending messages on an online dating app.

0:21:16 - (C): Love it.

0:21:17 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Love it. Okay, first, the first thing is you want to use words that trigger or create the correct neural map. We'll get real sciency on this because this is, I think, how we have to think about it. So a neural map is a cluster of words or ideas around a certain concept. So, for example, if in a dating app, you had a picture of yourself skiing, and then you sent a message to a lady friend that said, Howdy?

0:21:49 - (C): Just howdy?

0:21:49 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Let's start with that. Howdy? Say howdy. I'm in Texas. All right. Howdy is a really interesting word, and it triggers all kinds of neural math. Maybe south, maybe Texas, maybe cowboy, maybe adventure. That's on the positive side, but it also could create negative cues, like maybe you hate the south. Maybe you feel like that's a really old school term. Maybe you think that's real nerdy and cheesy. Those are two distinct set of neural maps.

0:22:15 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I want you to use words that trigger neural maps of your ideal partner. So if you want to attract a woman who is turned on by howdy, I want you to use howdy. If you have a woman who's going to be turned on by bonjour, I want you to use bonjour. If you have a woman who's going to be turned on by Aloha, I want you to use aloha. So in other words, I want you to not use default words. I think a lot of the times in our messages we'll say, hey, hi.

0:22:46 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): That's like throwing away your charisma. It isn't heard. You're going to blend in with everyone else. I would rather you think in the first ten words of this message, what are at least two or three neural maps that I can trigger for my ideal person? And also, this is going to turn.

0:23:03 - (C): Off the wrong people.

0:23:05 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So if you say howdy, let's stick with howdy. I hope you're having a lovely day. Okay, let's just try that. At least that's a little bit positive, a little bit more. Kind of a nice question. If you want to level it up a little bit, you could say, howdy. Did you have any? What would I say? Howdy? What did you have for breakfast this morning? Just to be different and unique. Now I'm a breakfast lover, right? Like, I could eat breakfast three times a day. So if I'm looking for a partner, I want someone who's like, oh, I love breakfast. I had waffles, I had oatmeal. I don't want someone who's like, oh, I don't eat breakfast.

0:23:45 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): In fact, that would probably turn them off. I'm not going to marry or date someone who doesn't eat breakfast, right? Like, I got to have my breakfast. In other words, it's a silly example, but I want you to begin to think of creating neural maps to repel the wrong people and attract the right ones.

0:24:01 - (C): Okay?

0:24:02 - (Srini Rao): It's funny you say that because I will often on certain dating apps, get these messages. There's, like, literally one where it's like, hey, what do you expect me to do with that?

0:24:11 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Horrible, right? That's a conversational bomb. It's like you're throwing something in the conversation, but it doesn't do anything. It doesn't help us. Now you have the choice depending on if you're attracted to them or not, you like their profile if you're going to take up the conversational load. So I think that there's two different types of conversationalists. There's conversational drivers and there's conversational passengers.

0:24:36 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I do not think there's in between, by the way, conversational drivers are typically the ones who carry the load.

0:24:42 - (C): You know what I'm saying?

0:24:44 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): They're the ones willing to ask the hard or interesting questions. They're the ones who come up with the clever answers. They're the ones who bridge topics. They're the ones who will rekindle after a couple of hours of being quiet. You have to decide if you're willing to be a conversational driver. And if you are, great. You take that hey and then you pick up the conversational load and you're like, oh, yeah, hey.

0:25:06 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Or howdy in response or aloha or whatever it is or cheerio or whatever it is that you want to say. And that's going to help you're willing to take that load. If you're not that into them, you.

0:25:17 - (C): Can be a passenger, right?

0:25:19 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): And you know what a passenger does?

0:25:20 - (C): Pay back, right?

0:25:23 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): If you don't want to be a driver, you don't have to be. And you can just respond with that, with the mimicry or mirroring, with the heyback. A little tiny subtle note here on Dating Profile. The little hack I like to use is I like to copy their way that they use emojis. I like to mimic or mirror the way they use words unless they're misspelled. So I do this with my students as well as a verbal sign of respect.

0:25:53 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So if someone uses a smiley face with a colon and a parentheses, I use a colon apprentices. If someone uses an equal sign and apprentices, I use an equal sign apprentices. I literally will copy the kinds of emojis they use as a verbal respect.

0:26:08 - (C): Yeah.

0:26:09 - (Srini Rao): Let's talk about two things really quick, but decoding and encoding. You say decoding is how we read and interpret social signals from others. Social signals help us decipher everything about a person, their intentions toward us, their trustworthiness, their confidence, and even their personality. Encoding is how we send social cues. We send some cues purposefully. We stand with good posture to show confidence, or we smile to show friendliness.

0:26:30 - (Srini Rao): And I want to talk to you about this in maybe a bizarre context and maybe you're familiar with it or not. So there are two shows recently on Netflix. One is called the Tinder Swindler and the other is called inventing Anna. And they're both about people who deceived hundreds of people into believing things about them that were completely untrue.

0:26:55 - (C): Wow.

0:26:55 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I haven't seen either of them, but I'm excited to watch them. Tell me, what's the context?

0:26:59 - (Srini Rao): So Inventing Anna is literally the story of some girl in New York who convinced the entire social elite of New York that she was some German heiress. She got them to basically give her thousands of dollars, spend money. Basically people allowed her to use their credit cards to stay in like, five star hotels and spend boatloads of money. And then The Tinder Swindler is a similar story about a guy who basically pretended to be some. Sort of billionaire's kid and swindled one woman after another, where he would get one woman to give him a credit card and then he would use that credit card to go and court some other was madness. But I knew that I wanted to talk to you about it because I thought to myself, like, okay, this would be an interesting Vanessa Van Edwards conversation.

0:27:47 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): You know, it's so interesting because this is my secret fear with this book and I really struggle with this. My biggest worry is cues are very powerful and I am assuming that readers are using them with good intention, but they can be used with bad intention. And that is my biggest worry. I think that charmers and con men and women, they know this invisible language, they speak it very fluently and they can turn it on when they want to. And so that is like my biggest fear is I bet you and I can't wait to go watch that.

0:28:20 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): This Anna was able to dial up her warmth and her competence. So people were like, oh, and this is the two questions we ask about people. So you talked about decoding encoding, which is exactly right. When we are with people, we are quickly trying to decode all the cues. We're being sent to answer two questions as quickly as possible. The first question we ask about a person is, can I trust you?

0:28:41 - (C): Are you a threat?

0:28:41 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Are you on my team? The second question we ask about a person is, can I rely on you?

0:28:46 - (C): Are you smart?

0:28:47 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Are you going to give me good information? And we're trying to answer those incredibly quickly, and once we do, we're like check. So my bet is that these people knew how to very quickly say, you can trust me and you can rely on me. And then people handed over their credit card. That is my biggest concern, and I hope everyone listening is going to read with good intentions.

0:29:09 - (Srini Rao): Okay, so in that case, how do we create the sense of reliability and trust when we're interacting with other people? Since we're talking about dating and everybody jokes that every guest on this show is a reflection, whatever problem I'm trying to solve in my life, we're going to continue with that as our primary framework. So let's say I'm on a date and I want to quickly communicate that I'm somebody that this person can trust and that they can rely on.

0:29:34 - (C): Okay?

0:29:34 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So assuming good intentions and by the way, this works on a date, on a video call in a meeting, actually, the rules are pretty the same based on professional, romantic or social situations. So the very first thing is, oddly, I'm going to say the weirdest thing on this podcast, which is our palms are sexy. So a lot of the times we think about a date being attractive, getting our hair to look good, making our outfit look right, that's all great but actually, the sexiest part of your body when it comes to those two questions is your palms.

0:30:05 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): And the reason for this, if you think about this from an evolutionary perspective, okay, is when we could see someone's palms, we know they're not hiding anything from us. We know that they're not withholding. If you make a fist, right? A fist is of anger. It's of tension, it's of clenching. A palm is literally the opposite of that. So you want to show your palm with the first 10 seconds. It's literally like saying, you can see my hand. I'm showing you my hand. So on a video call, the very first thing I do is, hey, good morning. I hold up my hand.

0:30:33 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Or, oh, so good to see you, and I hold up my hand. When I walk into a restaurant, I wave, oh, good to see you. When I walk across a room, I beckon people over to sit with me with an open palm. When someone comes into my office, I wave them through with an open palm. Literally, that immediately helps people trust you, and that sounds really crazy. So that's for trust, but it's also for belonging, right? The other thing that people really want is they want to know, do you welcome me? Are you accepting me? Are you acknowledging me? And on a date, especially, we're so scared that we're not welcome or that we're not deserving. And so you literally want to welcome someone with open palms, right? Like, come sit. Oh, it's so good to finally see you with your palms and hands open.

0:31:13 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): That is a universal gesture of welcoming. So one it's a really easy one. Always, always palm open beckoning in the first 10 seconds. The second thing that you want to do is create oxytocin. So oxytocin is a very complicated chemical in our body. It does lots of things, but for our purposes, it is the chemical of social connection. Oxytocin. When they give people nose sprays of oxytocin, they literally do this in the lab. They make people sniff oxytocin.

0:31:41 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): When people do that, they share more profits. When they play Prisoners Dilemma, they immediately become more trustworthy. So oxytocin is what you want. It's the chemical that helps you bond. The problem is, when we're nervous, we end up stifling that oxytocin loop. So how do we produce oxytocin? One is through eye contact. So the moment we mutually gaze with someone, we both begin to produce oxytocin. This also happens through a video call.

0:32:08 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So even looking from through a camera, we can produce oxytocin. So making eye contact and locking eyes within the first few seconds of interacting is going to immediately burst that oxytocin. The second way that we produce oxytocin is through touch. So the more touch, the longer the touch, the more oxytocin. So a handshake is okay. A long handshake is even better. A hug is the best. A cheek kiss is even better.

0:32:34 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): A backpack is okay, but around the arm or around the shoulder or a lower back touch is even better. All of those are producing this chemical loop that helps you feel more trustworthy. The last thing I would say about the oxytocin is we also found I did a research experiment with Dr. Paul Zach. He runs Immersion, neuroscience. He's like the chief oxytocin researcher and a good friend of mine in the pandemic. We were wondering, how are we going to replace that touch?

0:33:02 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): We can do it on eye contact, but what are we going to do on these video calls? And so we had a hypothesis that if we said an oxytocin word, it would create a little bit of oxytocin effect, and that's exactly what we found. So if you are on a video call or in a phone call or even messaging, you can say, sending a digital high five, sending a virtual hug.

0:33:25 - (C): Wish we could cheat kiss.

0:33:26 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): But for now, this will have to do. Or besos like signing up besos or.

0:33:30 - (C): Hugs or hugs and kisses.

0:33:33 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Even just saying touch words can help trigger oxytocin, which is a huge relief, even in writing.

0:33:38 - (C): Yeah.

0:33:39 - (Srini Rao): Well, let's talk about touch and space in particular, because I know you say there are four areas around our body where we like to interact with different categories of people. The intimacy zone, the personal zone, social zone, and the public zone. And touch is one of those things that, particularly in the MeToo era, that I think most people are paranoid about. Like, I remember when we had Nick Notice here, he said he had a lot of clients who were just absolutely terrified to try to kiss a date because they were scared they would be accused of something. And he said there's a problem with that is he said, if you don't initiate, things aren't going to happen. He said, we can take this way too far.

0:34:19 - (Srini Rao): I'm curious how you deal with that.

0:34:22 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Yes. Okay, so it's very important to be aware of people's comfort zones. And you just mentioned a great way to sort of test the waters. So there are these four zones of space. Now, across cultures, the ranges are a little bit different, but the four zones are the same. So about 18 inches apart is the intimate zone that is reserved for people who we really are close to. It's like pre kissing. If you pulled up 18 inches from your face, it's really close.

0:34:48 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): That's just reserved for people who we feel really close to. If someone comes into your intimate zone, it's likely that they are feeling quite comfortable with you. The next zone is about 18 inches to about three or 4ft apart. Again, these are just approximations. It depends on your culture. That is the social zone I'm sorry, the personal zone, which is where people like to have one on one conversations.

0:35:08 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): We can reach out and touch easily. We can touch an arm or touch a shoulder. If someone's in that zone, it means that they feel comfortable enough to have some casual touch. Here's the key, though. If someone stays in the social zone, so the social zone is 5ft or more apart, that means they probably are not ready for touch. And that's very helpful because if someone's far enough away, where when you hold your hand out straight, you cannot touch them, okay? They're not ready yet, right?

0:35:35 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So that's a really easy way to know. Does someone want to be touched? Are they getting close enough to touch? The second thing is, I like to ask prep people for touch. So I will say in pre messages, when I hang out with people or even when I first get together, I'm a hugger.

0:35:49 - (C): Are you?

0:35:51 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Before I go in for the hug. And that way, if someone says, oh, I'm not a hugger, you can go, oh, no worries. Let's high five you kind of laugh it off. Or they say, yes, I'm a hugger, and then you hug.

0:36:01 - (C): Right.

0:36:02 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So I like to actually say the word which one triggers oxytocin, right? So if I say I'm a hugger, I've already triggered oxytocin. And then two, that gives nice permission. Same thing with, like, I really want to kiss you right now.

0:36:14 - (C): Right?

0:36:15 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): That's before you even go in. It's a kind of sexy way of asking permission. So I'm very into mentioning the words up front and watching their facial responsiveness. Do they eyebrow raise, nod, and smile? Or do they purse their lips, turn away, and nod?

0:36:31 - (C): No, right?

0:36:32 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Those are two very different reactions.

0:36:34 - (Srini Rao): As a creator, I've realized that time.

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0:38:25 - (Srini Rao): Let's talk about physical space, because one of the things you say is that when you're in one on one interactions, where you need to build rapport, make a show of removing all barriers between you and others. Clear the table in a client meeting. Push aside a computer in a brainstorm session. Move your clipboard to the side when talking to people. Scoot your coffee over on a date. Open body, open heart, open mind. And it's funny, because this is one thing that I was very intentional about. After a certain point when I would go on dates in San Diego, I found a hotel bar. And the reason I would choose that place was specifically because you couldn't sit at a table. You had to sit on benches next to each yeah, let's just say that my dates went pretty yes.

0:39:02 - (C): Yes.

0:39:02 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Okay. So that's interesting because you have two choices to initiate intimacy. And this is why I kind of like is is you can be flexible with them. Right? They're sort of like recipes.

0:39:14 - (C): Right?

0:39:14 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So if you like something a little sweeter, you can add a little more warmth. If you like something a little bit more salty, you can add a little more competence. This is the same thing with space. So you can create intimacy by being in someone's intimate zone, side by side, right. Benches, sitting next to each other. That is, creating intimacy simply by being 18 inches apart. And you're making that safe by not being face to face, like nose to nose.

0:39:39 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Or you can create intimacy by being by aligning your toes, your torso and your head. So fronting. So you can create great intimacy in a small cocktail table facing each other.

0:39:52 - (C): That fronting.

0:39:53 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Open heart, open body, moving everything aside. That's one way of creating intimacy. Or you can create intimacy by going right into their intimate zone, but side by side. Both of those are lovely options. You should pick what you're most comfortable with.

0:40:07 - (C): All right.

0:40:07 - (Srini Rao): I had to ask you about the John Stockton story, because I'm a diehard NBA two K basketball player. I don't watch actual basketball, but that story struck me as fascinating because you say Stockton nonverbally telegraphed to other players where the ball would be before he ever passed. Without realizing it, you might be doing the same. And I was thinking about the idea of telegraphing your passes, because if somebody on the opposing team can see that you're telegraphing your passes, you're going to get the ball stolen. I know this because I play this video game religiously every day, 100%.

0:40:41 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So I was fascinated by Stockton. I've been fascinated by him for many years because he holds the highest record and by a lot. I think I put the numbers in the book. It's insane how many assists he's had. So I end up watching many, many of his plays, and he actually is quoted as saying that he with his other players, other teammates, they know each other's nonverbal moves. They can telegraph to each other so quickly and so effectively that that's how he's able to have all these assists.

0:41:17 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So you're absolutely right. Other team members are trying to watch for these, but they're not going to be nearly as adept at noticing for another team's player. Right. They just don't play as much. This is the benefit, by the way, of learning cues and syncing up your cues with your partners, your colleagues, your kids, your best friends. I think the best wing women and wingmen. The reason why a really good wingman or a really good woman is so good is because you're telegraphing all these cues that no one else would even pick up on. So Stockton would often front.

0:41:52 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): He would angle very, very quickly. In know Millisecond, he'd shift his shoulders just so another player would know that ball's coming to me. And that's how he was able to get these assists. And they were so fast, and the other players were so attuned to see that that he ended up having still holds the record for the most assists. It is the same thing with the people who are important in your life. When you're doing a double presentation or when you're trying to talk to your partner or you have a wing man, you have to have a look, a gesture, a smile to know exactly where this is. My person, will you help me? Or, we got to go, or I need rescuing.

0:42:29 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Those are the cues that are like, oh, the master secret sauce.

0:42:33 - (C): Right?

0:42:33 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): That's how really good partners interact.

0:42:35 - (C): Yeah.

0:42:36 - (Srini Rao): Let's talk about two other things here posture and then what your eyes reveal. Because when I saw that sexiest man in the world thing, I was like, okay, Vanessa, I need you to find me a photographer who's going to literally redo my online dating photos based on this. So let's start with posture first. You say powerful posture isn't just important for your perceived confidence, it's important for your actual confidence. Here's a simple rule. The more powerful you feel, the more space you take up, the more powerful you look.

0:43:04 - (Srini Rao): So let's just, for example, talk about going out to dinner at a restaurant or a bar, and we want to demonstrate power just from the way that we're carrying ourselves.

0:43:16 - (C): Yes.

0:43:17 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Okay, so I want to give you the weirdest measurement ever, but this is all you really have to think about when it comes to posture. I think that people, when they think about sitting up straight or like what their mothers told them, that's sort of helpful, sitting up straight. But you could end up like, puffing out your chest, which doesn't look that great, or you feel like you're like a pupil in a classroom that also doesn't look that great. It looks very rigid. There's only one thing I want you to think about when it comes to posture, which is the distance between your earlobe and your shoulder.

0:43:45 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Weirdest distance, I know, but that is actually, especially on video calls or in profile photos, the distance between your earlobe and your shoulder, the shorter that is, the more defeated, ashamed, and embarrassed or low power you look. And that is because you can try this. If you shrink your head down and roll your shoulders up, and I'm doing it right now, you can actually hear I have less vocal power. Like, you can hear I become a little more nasally.

0:44:12 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I go a little higher in my voice tone. And that's because when we're in a low power position, it changes our vocal power. The moment I relax my shoulders, I have a lot more volume. I am able to stay a little bit lower in my range, and that is because confident people, their shoulders are down and back, their chin, and their head is up really high. Not out, but high. They have their chest nice and relaxed, and their arms are loose by their side.

0:44:34 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): When you walk into a bar, when you hop on video, when you walk into a meeting, I want you to maximize the distance between your ear and your shoulder. That's all I want you to think about. That is the most powerful thing you can do for your pastor.

0:44:47 - (C): Okay?

0:44:48 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): And your profile photo soup.

0:44:49 - (C): Profile photo soup.

0:44:50 - (Srini Rao): Let's talk about the eyes, because you say that when we widen our eyes, usually when experiencing emotions like fear and surprise, it allows us to see more. If we're afraid, we want to take in as much of a surroundings as possible to assess potential threats. And then when we narrow our eyes, it blocks out light so we can see greater detail. In some social situations, someone might flex their lower lid while trying to get to know you and understand you better. It's as if they're saying, I want.

0:45:12 - (D): To really see you.

0:45:13 - (Srini Rao): And you actually allude to the photos of the sexiest men alive. And I'm just thinking to myself, I remember thinking to myself, literally, oh, okay, cool. I need to find a photographer and basically say, make me look like, do you?

0:45:26 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Do you do? So funny. Funny pop culture story here is Zoolander. If you've seen the classic movie? Yes. Okay. Ben Stiller does a blue steel, right? And blue steel is basically him. He pouts his lips, and he hardens his lower lid. So you can try pout your lips and harden your lower lid. You're blue steel. Okay. He and Will Ferrell, the reason they picked this is because they made fun of Pierce Brosnan, who on the red carpet in every single picture. If you look at Pierce Brosna on the red carpet, every single picture, he is doing that. He's kind of pouting his lower lips, and he's hardening his lower lid. Every single picture of Pierce is piercing eyes. Like, literally, it's a rule. So they were actually making fun of Pierce Brosnan with that photo. That was the inspiration.

0:46:13 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): And when I saw this, I thought, wow. And then I looked at, of course, in the name of science, the 50th sexiest men alive. And on almost every picture, men have hard lower lids.

0:46:25 - (C): Why?

0:46:27 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Across races, when we harden our lower lids, less light comes in, and we're able to see more detail. And so if we're with a man who is flexing his lower lids at us, we literally are like, oh, he's deeply listening. He's trying to take in every detail about me. And that's what every human loves. Humans love it when you're trying to take in every detail about them.

0:46:54 - (C): Yeah.

0:46:54 - (Srini Rao): So what do I tell a photographer? Basically, get me to so when you say harden your lower lids, describe it to me.

0:47:01 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Okay. So I want you to try it. When you have a photographer, you should try this yourself first to get your right face. So you want a hardened lower lid, and that could be with a smile or not a smile. So you can have a hardened lower lid. If you just like, for example, if I ask you to look at a far sign across the room to try to read it. If you just harden your lower lids just slightly, that's this sort of intense scrutiny. And you can partner that with a small smile.

0:47:25 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): You can partner that with a little eyebrow raise, a lower lid flex and eyebrow raise is saying, like, want to talk to me? Do you want to talk to me?

0:47:34 - (Srini Rao): I'm going to have to have you analyze my online dating pictures for the sake of, like, we'll say it's for the sake of our listeners, research for them to understand.

0:47:45 - (C): I love it.

0:47:46 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So we should do some before and after. So we should do one neutral one, and we should do one of you hard and lower lids. We should do a hard and lower lids and eyebrow raise. We should do a hardened lower lids and smile, and you can see the differences between them. And by the way, this is very subtle. You don't have to act like you're squinting. It's not a squint, right? It's just a soft lower lid flex.

0:48:05 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): It's like a smolder right. So I want you to think that you're just intensely looking at that camera. That is a nonverbal cue of scrutiny or deep listening, and boy, oh, boy, do people like it?

0:48:16 - (Srini Rao): Well, yeah, we'll have to A B test this on the dating profile.

0:48:22 - (C): On the COVID of my book, I have a lower lip flex. Right.

0:48:26 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I'm doing it on the COVID of my book. So it's not just stating profiles. It's also intense. It's intense, right. It shows intensity. If you don't want to be intense.

0:48:34 - (C): You shouldn't do it.

0:48:35 - (Srini Rao): Okay, cool. Let's talk about voice Naturally as a podcaster. This was something that really was fascinating. When you say how we say our words, our tone, volume, pace, syntax, and cadence is just as important as what we say. We can tell a lot about a person, their emotional state, their intentions, and their personality from their voice. Understanding vocal cues is incredibly important for uncovering others feelings toward you, your work, and your projects.

0:49:00 - (Srini Rao): And I think that this in particular struck me a lot because probably one of the nicest things that people have said is you have a voice that's made for radio. It's just pleasant.

0:49:10 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): You do. Listeners tell me that.

0:49:14 - (Srini Rao): I don't know why that happens. I don't know what is the explanation for that. I'm wondering why that is.

0:49:21 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Oh, I know why it is. It's because when you speak, you speak in the back of your head, which sounds really crazy. I'm working to do it. You do it more naturally. If you have someone who's speaking in the front of their head, they tend to speak more like this. They're like a lot more leaning forward, and they want to yell at you. They want to tell you what to do. They speak in the front of their mouth as opposed to speaking in the.

0:49:44 - (C): Back of their head.

0:49:44 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Do you hear the difference there? Very subtle. You speak deeply in the back of your head. You also have a lot of, I think, space and resonance in your voice. So that nice. Low baritone. It's so nice to listen to. I totally agree. You have one of the best podcaster voices. Totally agree. Totally agree.

0:50:03 - (C): Thanks.

0:50:04 - (Srini Rao): Okay, well, now that you've inflated my ego, let's actually talk about how our listeners can do this for themselves.

0:50:12 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Yes.

0:50:12 - (C): Okay.

0:50:13 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So first we manipulate our voice tone with breath. And this happens without us even realizing it. So when I run out of breath, I have to work harder to speak, which makes me speak higher up in my tone and also makes me push out my words. So then I begin to lose my vocal power, and then I sound more like I'm really, really trying. And that's a horrible thing to listen to. If I were to give my answers like this, it would sound very, very forced.

0:50:42 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): That is because I was speaking at the end of my breath. The moment I take a deep breath and I maximize that space between my shoulder and my earlobe. That's another reason why we love to have that. And I speak on the outbreath. It pushes the air out. It pushes me down lower, and that's a much higher point. So if you are on a call and you hear yourself going up here, I want you to take a deep breath and speak on the outbreath. The mistake that we make is we speak when we're out of breath. So we start a sentence and we have lots of breath and we're talking really well, and then we run out of breath and then we kind of try to push the end of our sentence out.

0:51:21 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So I would rather you pause mid sentence and take a breath to lower your tone as opposed to trying to get your words out when you're out of breath.

0:51:32 - (Srini Rao): Let's talk about volume, because as I was telling you, in my family, there's just one volume loud. But you say that true vocal power comes from showing mastery of volume. Dynamism controlling your volume shows you have control of your message. When master Communicators want to show excitement, they speak up. When they want to share secrets or insider information, they speak quietly, forcing listeners to lean in and reading. That makes me think about something that I've noticed as a pattern when I've interviewed people.

0:52:03 - (Srini Rao): I noticed that a lot of podcasters dread the awkward silence, even if it's like five to 10 seconds. Yeah, I've noticed that when I say absolutely nothing, which I have actually gotten decent at doing, that is usually when.

0:52:18 - (D): I will get the most profound and.

0:52:19 - (Srini Rao): Beautiful sound bites out of people.

0:52:21 - (C): Yes.

0:52:25 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So pausing is powerful. So first of all, being masterful with your volume, being purposeful, I would say with your volume is really important. So if you have a presentation or something important to share, you should know where you want to dial up and speak louder because you are passionate about it. And when you want to share a little insider information, little background, and you go a little bit quieter, that helps the listener. And actually it's like giving them cliff notes for where they should be excited and pay attention and where they should lean in and sort of hear background information. So that's actually a helpful cue for the listener.

0:52:58 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): The second thing is that when you allow for pauses when you volume shift or before and after answers, it's also allowing the other person to go a little bit deeper, right? So you can use a breathing pause. So time for you to take breath or reset your volume as also a way to ask anything else?

0:53:19 - (C): Right?

0:53:20 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Those pauses are a way to just see do you have anything else to know that you want to talk to me about? My mom actually shared this tip with me very early on and she said to me that a lot of the times to. Get men to go deeper, to show them that you really want to listen. After they give an answer, wait three.

0:53:36 - (C): To 5 seconds to see if that.

0:53:39 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): You honor them, that you are waiting to see if they have anything else they want to share. Because women we have it not always, but women have the tendency to jump in and just share their answers and to give their opinion really fast. And that was the best thing she could have said to me because I ended up marrying an introvert and my introverted husband, who's very quiet, if I didn't do that, I wouldn't have gotten to know him as deeply in the very beginning. And that was one of the best tips for interacting with introverts is give them that extra three to 5 seconds as a way of saying I'm still here.

0:54:13 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): No rush.

0:54:16 - (Srini Rao): So one other thing you say about vocals is emotion is what captures people's attention and hooks them in to want to listen. Words imbued with emotion are more easily remembered. And the funny thing is that people have always asked what is it that makes you choose a podcast?

0:54:31 - (C): Yes.

0:54:32 - (Srini Rao): And I always say genuine curiosity. That's it. If I'm curious, because I know that if I'm curious, then I'll never be bored. And I pretty much know that if I am bored interviewing somebody, I will cut the interview in the middle and tell the person to go back and listen to an episode or just tell them this isn't going the way I need it to. Which is not polite at all. And some people have told me to go to hell.

0:54:52 - (Srini Rao): Others for your reader, agree. Yeah, I mean, that is literally why I do it. I'm like if I'm bored listening to this person during the interview, there's no way our listeners won't be bored.

0:55:03 - (C): Yeah, so true.

0:55:04 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So true. Yes, go ahead. Yes, I totally agree.

0:55:08 - (C): Thumbs up.

0:55:09 - (Srini Rao): Yeah. But the thing is I think that people try to fake this too sometimes. I don't think you can fake emotion.

0:55:20 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): You can fake it till you make it to a certain extent. I do not believe in faking it till you make it. I think that a lot of the times you can leak boredom, right? It's really, really hard to conceal our emotions. So I agree with you. It's really, really hard to conceal or to change our emotions.

0:55:34 - (C): Especially boredom, apathy, anger or fear.

0:55:41 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): It's really, really hard to hide those emotions. And so there are some emotions that are a little bit easier to hide. Like sometimes we can hide our shame if we're embarrassed. You don't always know that. Sometimes we can hide our discomfort. That's one that we can sometimes hide. Like you don't always know if someone's uncomfortable socially. But if you're bored, it's very hard to feign interest. You can do it. But it is exhausting, right?

0:56:04 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): If you have the ability to cut it off, cut it off. Life is too short.

0:56:08 - (Srini Rao): Yeah, well, it's funny you say that because it just reminded me of a story. I remember going on a date with this girl in San Diego who channeled dead people and I'm thinking to myself, well, I like talking to people who are alive. And 45 minutes into the date she looks at me and she's like, I'm not really feeling this.

0:56:25 - (C): I'm going to go and I'm going.

0:56:26 - (Srini Rao): To pay for my own drinks. And I looked at her, I was like, thank you. And I was like, why don't people do that more often? Why are we sitting here when clearly both of us are bored just to be polite?

0:56:40 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Amazing by the way. I do think that the world is going more towards that. I think that we are learning social assertiveness in a way that we can all swallow. I also think we've realized like, life is too short and our social interactions need to be precious now. And so I think that we're going to start seeing more behavior like that where if there's a bad date or people aren't clicking or like toxic friends or friends out of habit.

0:57:06 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I lost all my friends by habit. I used to have friends that I just sort of saw because we always saw each other and we were old friends and why not? We invited each other to birthday parties.

0:57:16 - (C): Well, in the pandemic that stopped.

0:57:18 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): And so I think that we're getting to the point where we're not going to have any more accidental friends, we're not going to have any more relationships out of habit. We're going to begin to choose them and that's going to empower us to be more assertive and I am excited for that. Let us start that with this podcast. Let's start more social assertiveness, please.

0:57:38 - (Srini Rao): Let's talk now about imagery. I mean, obviously as somebody who runs a creative brand that uses a ton of imagery, I'm really fascinated by what we're communicating with our imagery because I know you go into detail about color. Explain to me, particularly in the context of like a website or something like that, how do we communicate what we want to communicate?

0:57:59 - (C): Yes.

0:58:00 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So imagery was a really fun chapter, right? It's actually one of the longest chapters in the book and that's because there are so many cues that we send with images as we talked about the very beginning with our neural maps, right? So images are one of the most powerful ways to trigger neural maps and so on our marketing materials, in our website, in our profiles, we have to be very, very purposeful with the kind of images that we're using and that can include color. Now, I really struggle with the color in the book because color psychology is very mostly pseudoscience. It's very, very hard to reliably study color associations because everyone has different color associations, different cultures have different color associations.

0:58:41 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): That is actually how I teach it. Which is we need to know or you need to know what your color associations are and what the color associations might be for your ideal person. And that's what you should try to trigger. So, for example, for Science of People, I knew that we're very sciency, obviously, science of people. And so I wanted to trigger neural maps of professional, of even, like, newspaper.

0:59:03 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So our main brand colors are black and white. Especially in the beginning, they were black and white because I purposely wanted to trigger that. And then I made our pop up color yellow in the very beginning because I wanted people to think of highlighting. When you're reading something black and white, like a book, the only color that usually comes into it is a highlighter, typically. And that worked for many, many years.

0:59:25 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): And I specifically used highlighter, like a highlighter line as an image in my website as a way to say, these are the highlights I want you to take out for you. I'm giving you the Cliff Notes of some of this science. That image, paired with our verbal mission, was immediately resonant with the people who liked that. If you loved reading and you loved science and you wanted social hacks, we were your people.

0:59:51 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): If you were not a big reader and you like skimming and you just want to see it in a TikTok, we're not your people, right? And so I think that you can think about what does your ideal person want? What kind of images and neural maps do you want to create for them? You should be signaling to them throughout your entire website what color is going to resonate with them. Is red too much like Hughes? We decided to do red because I wanted it to be a little bit more urgent.

1:00:18 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I wanted it to feel kind of loud. And it is a loud book. I mean, the COVID and the red is loud. And I wanted that. I wanted people to be like, oh, wow, this is big, and if you don't want big, it's not for you. So same thing is what kind of colors, what kind of images are going to trigger the right things for the right people?

1:00:35 - (Srini Rao): It's funny you say that, because red is like an integral part of our brand colors. My friends always tease me when I got a pair of custom shoes, he was like, Is everything in your life advertisement for? Like, pretty much. He was like, those shoes are literally like the color of your website. He was like, Yep. You did that on purpose, didn't you? He's like, yes.

1:00:57 - (C): We're entrepreneurs.

1:00:58 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): We have to constantly talk about our business.

1:01:00 - (Srini Rao): Jay Z would call that an Empire state of mind.

1:01:03 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): There you go.

1:01:04 - (C): There you boom, boom. I like it.

1:01:07 - (Srini Rao): Red in particular, though, is a color that fascinates me. And I am curious about this. I feel like, to me, there's one thing that I think I would find completely irresistible in a room. And that's a woman who walks in a red dress. Like, I can't not notice that.

1:01:22 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Oh, I like that.

1:01:23 - (C): What is that about, by the way.

1:01:26 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): That'S a woman who puts on a red dress wants to signal to men who are going to appreciate a red dress. Right. They're signaling, in a way, by the way, a red dress is not appealing to every man.

1:01:38 - (C): It's not.

1:01:40 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So one is that's a signal to you?

1:01:42 - (C): Right.

1:01:43 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): That's the kind of attention she wants. And then the actual scientific thinking about this is that red typically means ripe. So back in our caveman days, when we were hunting for ripe strawberries or ripe raspberries or red apples, of course, there are other colors of fruit as well, but red was typically obvious. Means either ripe or stay away from this.

1:02:04 - (C): Right?

1:02:05 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Red, poisonous red, don't eat it. And so red is just a color of attention. Not always positive, sometimes negative, which is why I said red is just loud. And if you want someone who likes that, fantastic. If you want something more demure, use the pastel.

1:02:22 - (Srini Rao): Well, it's funny because I remember talking to Mars Dorian, who kind of really was the guy behind the visual voice of unmistakable. And he grew up in East Germany before the fall of the Berlin Wall. And when he told me about all this, I said, oh, my God. Everything about the way that you illustrate suddenly makes sense to me. Everything you do basically screams with a complete disregard for.

1:02:49 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Signal. It was signal to you. You could feel it even in the stroke of the way that the art was done that signaled it calls out to you.

1:02:58 - (Srini Rao): Yeah, which is why I liked it so much. And I think that's why he was the one that was responsible for so much of what we did.

1:03:05 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Yeah. And that's very purposeful. It drives me crazy when people use stock images that are just like sort of like, yeah, sure, I need a picture of people talking. And I have now a team that does my website, and I'm always fighting with them. I'm like, this stock image is not on brand. We cannot use this stock image. And so a fight that I have internally with my team is like, we can't use stock images because we're saying we have to stand out. So using a stock image is the exact opposite of what we're saying. Yet we need a picture to visually cue people what's the picture? So actually, it's funny because internally, that's a fight we have constantly every week, we spend a ton of money on quote, unquote, unique stock photography and our own stock photography because it's a huge issue. So just funny that also internally is something that we think about a lot.

1:03:51 - (Srini Rao): Well, you know, I remember the first time that we saw the first design of the unlisticable creative website when we rebranded I was like, this doesn't look like a website for creatives. And I remember looking at it and I was like, I know what's wrong? I was like, we need to get rid of all the stock photography and we need to have Mars custom design all the icons. And that was pretty much what changed.

1:04:13 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Yes.

1:04:14 - (C): So now, look, I get it.

1:04:16 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): If people listening are like, I don't have that kind of resource. I don't have those kind of resources, that's okay. I would rather have it be minimal with the right fewer call outs than lots of random call outs that you can't control.

1:04:29 - (C): Right.

1:04:29 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I would much, much rather you be purposeful with where you can be.

1:04:34 - (Srini Rao): All right, so I have a few final questions and we'll wrap things up. So this is a lot to keep in mind. And I wonder, you have to consciously think about this while you're doing it. Or is it at a certain point, does it just become how you operate unconsciously? Because like you said, I don't have to think about the tonality of my voice. This is just the way that I speak. I'm not sitting here thinking, okay, let me have this inflection here and that inflection here. Although I do actually have a question regarding voice, but we'll get back to that.

1:05:05 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Yes, not anymore. So the nice thing about cues are luckily our brain is already very aware of cues. So labeling them actually might feel more like I'm labeling my intuition. So hopefully a lot of the cues you'll be like, yes, I do this naturally. We didn't know why. So that's a couple of the cues which are already happening naturally. But cues are very much like working out for the first time. The first time that you do a squat, you have to think about your form where you're like, okay, how are my feet angled? Are my knees over my toes?

1:05:33 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Keep my back straight? Like you're very aware of every aspect of the squat. Then you do it again and again. You do it a week later, you do it three weeks later. Then after a while, you're not even thinking about your form anymore because you have this muscle memory. It is the same thing with cues. The first time you try them on, it's going to be a little clunky. You're going to be like, okay, do I nod? Okay, now I tilt a little bit too much. Okay, now lean in.

1:05:54 - (C): Oh, what?

1:05:55 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): We're in the social zone. Great. And that's okay because it's like learning the fundamentals. Then the muscle memory will kick in. So I always say stick with it because the right cues will stick with you. And they'll become very habitual now. I barely think about them. They're so intuitive to me that I am able to develop. I devote all my cognitive load towards just connecting.

1:06:17 - (Srini Rao): So one thing I was curious about in terms of vocals, i, to this day still hate the way that we end the show. Like, I can't think of a better way to end this than say, we'll wrap the show with that. And I'm just like, okay, so ending a conversation, what do you know about that?

1:06:32 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So I like to use a vocal cue to end conversation, which is using, like, the closing tone. And the closing tone is really great if it's partnered with a verbal exit cue. So verbal exit cues are usually like, a future mention. So, like, so what are you up to this weekend?

1:06:51 - (C): Well, cool.

1:06:52 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I hope you have a great time with that. And it was great talking to you.

1:06:55 - (C): Right.

1:06:56 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I mentioned a future mention, and then you can hear me go into that closed tone, or it could be a follow up. Well, great. I will definitely reach out to you on LinkedIn. I'll send you all those assets. And it was so great talking to you. Thanks so much for doing this. So it's a future mention or a follow up, plus that closed tone, and we know that as humans that we're about to close. That's a really effective way to end because you're almost like doing a close out, right? You're like, allowing the person to slowly ramp down.

1:07:29 - (C): Yeah.

1:07:30 - (Srini Rao): Well, speaking of which, I feel like I could sit here and talk to you for like, 5 hours, so interesting.

1:07:35 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I love it, too. I know.

1:07:38 - (Srini Rao): So I want to finish with my final question, which I've asked you before, and it's always interesting to see how people answer this question when they come back. What do you think?

1:07:46 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I don't even remember my last answer.

1:07:48 - (Srini Rao): Somebody or something. Unmistakable.

1:07:51 - (C): Yes.

1:07:53 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): I'm glad I don't remember what I said originally. You'll have to tell me if it was the same. I think being ruthlessly who you are, going back to what we first mentioned at the beginning of the episode, I tried for a long time to be everyone else. I tried for a long time to be a chameleon and try to fake it till I make it, and it never worked. And I think that the more that you're ruthlessly who you are, the more that you figure out your unique flavor of charisma.

1:08:18 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): That is what makes people unmistakable. It's not that they're trying to be someone thing. They're not. They're not trying to be someone else. They're not trying to blend in. They are ruthless to themselves, and they're okay with it.

1:08:28 - (C): Amazing.

1:08:29 - (Srini Rao): Well, I have one request. I was wondering if you would be willing to give away a copy or a couple of copies of your books for people who would be willing to share the interview.

1:08:37 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I'm happy to give away a copy, yes. And I can sign it for whoever. First of all, if you buy the book, amazing. If you share this episode, even more amazing. So, yes, I'd love to send out a personally signed copy to someone. Yeah.

1:08:51 - (Srini Rao): Great. Well, we'll put a link on the actual page for the episode for people to share, to win a copy of Vanessa's book. But where can people find out more about you, your work, the book, the research, and what basically is a rabbit hole of interesting facts about human behavior?

1:09:09 - (C): Yes.

1:09:10 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): Okay, so the book is available wherever books are sold, amazon, Airports, Barnes and Noble. It also got picked up internationally, so should be available internationally as well. And then, of course, you can check me out on YouTube. I'm Vanessa Van Edwards. I have a ton of cue breakdowns, by the way, that I couldn't put in the book. Like I break down the rock and Obama and Justin Bieber and I do a whole Britney Spears cue breakdown.

1:09:31 - (Vanessa Van Edwards): So if you want to check out that, you can. And then sciencetheple.com is where I have all my articles and resources, too.

1:09:39 - (C): Amazing.

1:09:40 - (Srini Rao): And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that.