Vanessa Van Edwards | The Secret Language of Charismatic Communication

Srini: Vanessa, welcome back to the unmistakable Creative  Creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

Srini: It's my pleasure to have you back. I think you know, you're probably one of my favorite podcast guests. Yes, I remember, I think when I was on your show, joking, like when my co-host Matt asked about you, it was like, "Who's Vanessa?" I was like, "Vanessa is like the hot girl who doesn't know she's hot. She's really nice and says nice things," but all joking aside, you have a new book out called "Queues," all of which we will get into. Last time I asked you about your social group in high school. And this time I wanted to start by asking you, what did your parents do for work? And how did that end up shaping and influencing the choices you've made with your life and your career?

Srini: Yeah, yeah. I was going to ask you, you know, how do you navigate the social dynamics of going back and forth between these two families? I mean, what does that process of adaptation look like day to day and how do you do that without losing your mind? Because that seems like a lot for a kid to take on.

Yeah. Yeah. I was going to ask you, like, you know, how do you navigate the social dynamics of going back and forth between these two families? I mean, what does that process of adaptation look like day to day and how do you do that without losing your mind? Because that seems like a lot for a kid to take on.

Well, I've met both of my parents. They are entertainment producers and very analytical. What's funny is I think that shaped me less than their jobs, more of the fact that they got divorced when I was about three and immediately remarried. And I had to switch houses every three and a half days. So I was constantly bouncing back and forth between two totally different families. My dad went on to raise his own family. I was one of four lives in a totally different neighborhood. My mom was just me. She ended up having a very successful career. I was kind of at home alone. And so I was bouncing between literally two totally different households. And it made me have to be not only adaptable, but I had to be able to read the adults in the room very quickly because I had literally just been gone. I think this is why I'm so obsessed.

Vanessa Van Edwards: Well, I've met both of my parents; they are entertainment producers. So both of my parents are very analytical. And what's funny is I think that shaped me less than their jobs; it would be more of the fact that they got divorced when I was about three and immediately remarried. And I had to switch houses every three and a half days. So I was constantly bouncing back and forth between two totally different families. My dad went on to raise his own family; I was one of four lives in a totally different neighborhood. My mom was just me. She ended up having a very successful career, so I was kind of at home alone. And so I was bouncing between literally two totally different households. And it made me have to be not only adaptable, but I had to be able to read the adults in the room very quickly because I had literally just been gone. Now, I think that's why I'm so obsessed.

Vanessa Van Edwards: It was, it was so much. And I think there are two ways. I think that we can be adaptable as humans, which is exactly what happened to me; either you're a chameleon, so you go into a place and you completely adopt whatever body language, voice tone, and language is being used around you. The other way that you do it is you become staunchly and ruthlessly yourself. So you go in and you're like, "I don't care what other people are doing. This is me. Accept me for who I am or who I'm not."

In my elementary school years, I was a chameleon and it was. That's what I had my most awkward times at school. I had high social hives all over my body. So I'd often have to go to school in turtlenecks and long sleeves and pants because I had welts all over my body. I would have panic attacks at school and at home because I was trying so hard to fit in.

In my teenage years, I switched to the second, which I think a lot of teenagers also might have dipped into that ruthless version of themselves. And that caused its own problems because then

Srini: Yeah. So your parents being entertainment lawyers and incredibly analytical, were they naturally charismatic communicators?

It was, it was so much. And I think there are two ways. I think that we can be adaptable as humans, which is exactly what happened to me, which is either you're a chameleon. So you go into a place and you completely adopt whatever body language, voice tone, and language is being used around you. The other way that you do it is you become staunchly and ruthlessly yourself. So you go in and you're like, I don't care what other people are doing. This is me. Accept me for who I am or who I'm not.

In my elementary school years, I was a chameleon and it was. That's what I had my most awkward moments at school. I had high social hives all over my body. So I'd have to often go to school in turtlenecks and long sleeves and pants. Because I had like welts all over my body. I would have panic attacks at school and at home because I was trying so hard to fit in.

In my teenage years, I switched to the second, which I think a lot of teenagers also might have dipped into that ruthlessly myself. And that caused its own problems because then I

Yeah, no, my dad is exceptionally charismatic. I actually just interviewed him on my YouTube channel because I wanted him to talk about his charisma and my mom has learned charisma. So my mom has learned, and I actually would talk to her about this. She's learned the structure of conversation, just like a lawyer would, and she knows which conversation points to hit. So I think that I might have picked up more on that side. I don't think that I'm naturally charismatic. So I think that I had to learn soft skills, like a foreign language. It just didn't come naturally. So I have to think of the conversation, or like I say this word now, now I do a head tilt. Now I need to eyebrow raise. And so for me, it's much more like trying to learn a foreign language.

Yeah. So your parents being entertainment lawyers and incredibly analytical, were they naturally charismatic communicators?

Srini: Yeah. Why do you think it is that certain people are naturally charismatic, and how much of that do you think has to do with upbringing, environment, parents, and peers?

Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. No, my dad is exceptionally charismatic. I actually just interviewed him on my YouTube channel because I wanted him to talk about his charisma and my mom has learned charisma. So my mom has learned, and I actually would talk to her about this. She's learned the structure of conversation, just like a lawyer would, and she knows which conversation. So I think that I might've picked up more on that side. I don't think that I'm naturally charismatic. So I think that I had to learn soft skills, like a foreign language. It just didn't come naturally. So I have to think of the conversation, or like I say this word now, now I do a head tilt. Now I need to eyebrow raise. And so for me, it's much more like trying to learn a foreign language.

Vanessa Van Edwards: There is a little bit of research on this. Now, charisma and leadership are not interchangeable, right? So some leaders are not charismatic, but I think a lot of leaders become leaders because they are charismatic, and some research identifies it. And this is approximately 70% of our people leaders are based on life choices of how they got there, based on their choices. And 30% is genetic. I don't know exactly how they measure that genetic aspect, but there are premises that most of most leaders have actually learned to figure out what is charismatic so they can interact with people. So, when it comes down to like research, what makes someone charismatic? This is the research that totally opened my eyes to how people interact. It was very simple. It finally explained why these charismatic people are charismatic, which is highly charismatic. People rank high in two traits. And if they rank high in these two traits, people want to be around them. They're high in warmth and competence. And that is the leaders who are more open, collaborative, and trustworthy, but at the same time, they're also capable, competent, powerful, and impressive. Those are the people we want to be around. And if there's any mismatch or there

There is a little bit of research on this. Now, charisma and leadership are not interchangeable, right? So some leaders are not charismatic, but I think a lot of leaders become leaders because they are charismatic and some research identifies it. And this is approximately 70% of our people leaders are based on life choices of how they got there with based on their choices. And 30% is genetic. I don't know exactly how they measure that genetic aspect, but there are claims that most of most leaders have actually learned to figure out what is charismatic so they can interact with people. So, when it comes down to like research, what makes someone charismatic? This is the research that totally opened my eyes to how people interact. It was very simple. It finally explained why are these charismatic people charismatic, which is highly charismatic. People rank high in two traits. And if they rank high in these two traits, people want to be around them. They're high in warmth and competence. And that is the leaders who are more open, collaborative, and trustworthy, but at the very same time, they're also capable, competent, powerful, and impressive. Those are the people we want to be around. And if there's any mismatch or there's an uneven amount of

Yeah. Why do you think it is that certain people are naturally charismatic, and how much of that do you think has to do with upbringing, environment, parents, and peers?

Srini: Okay. So that raises a question as you and I were talking about my obsession with, you know, how Steve Jobs ran Apple. I mean, Steve Jobs was kind of the opposite of warm, and yet he was perceived as highly charismatic. So how do you explain that paradox?

So I think, if you read some of the biographies of Steve Jobs, he was very, very high in competence, right? So he was off the charts in powerful, impressive, capable, and efficient, but he knew how to add just enough warmth to get the job done. And if you read his biography and they break down sort of how he got people on board, it's not just a smiley, bubbly person. I think that's the misconception about warm people. Yes. There is a warmth that's like smiling bubbly, and that was never Steve Jobs, but warmth can also be a vulnerability. Warmth can also be collaboration. And that's where Steve Jobs got his warmth.

My argument and the way that I see this working with him is he was ruthlessly competent, but he knew he could never do it alone. He knew without a doubt that he needed people, that he needed his team, and that he hired the best of the best. I think that that's the difference between him and maybe just a colder competent narcissist, someone who's just copying. They could do it all themselves. They don't need anyone. They don't need any help. They can do it better than anyone. Steve Jobs knew

Vanessa Van Edwards: So I think if you read some of the biographies of Steve Jobs, he was very, very high in competence, right? So he was off the charts in powerful, impressive, capable, and efficient, but he knew how to add just enough warmth to get the job done. And if you read his biography and they break down sort of how he got people on board.

So in his discussions with people, he was not just a smiley, bubbly person. I think that's the misconception and this conception of warm people. Yes, there is a warmth that's like smiling, and bubbly, and that was never Steve Jobs, but warmth can also be a vulnerability. Warmth can also be collaboration. And that's where Steve Jobs got his warmth.

My argument and the way that I see this working with him is he was ruthlessly competent, but he knew he could never do it alone. He knew without a doubt that he needed people, that he needed his team, and that he hired the best of the best. I think that that's the difference between him and maybe just a colder, competent narcissist, someone who's just cocky. They could do it all themselves. They don't need anyone. They

Srini: So, a random question, where were you in the birth order? Amongst all these kids, and you know, how did you get yourself heard? What's that like?

So, a random question, where were you in the birth order? Among all these kids, and you know, how do you get yourself heard? What's that?

Okay. So that raises a question as you and I were talking about my obsession with, you know, how Steve Jobs ran Apple. I mean, Steve Jobs was kind of the opposite of warm, and yet he was perceived as highly charismatic. So, how do you, like, explain that paradox?

Vanessa Van Edwards: Do you want to guess?

Srini: I would guess you're either the youngest or in the middle.

Vanessa Van Edwards: So I am the only of my parents. Which is an interesting thing. So my parents had me and got divorced really young. And then I immediately got an older stepbrother and then my parents had two younger sisters. So I'm either an only or middle, right? Like half the time, half of my life. I was the only one, and then at the other house, I was middle.

I would guess that you're the youngest or in the middle.

So I am the only one of my parents. Which is an interesting thing. So my parents had me and got divorced really young. And then I immediately got an older stepbrother and then my parents had two younger sisters. So I'm either an only or middle, right? Like half the time, half of my life. I was the only one, and then at the other house, I was middle.

Srin: Do you want to guess?

Srini: Okay, so in the other house, when you're in the middle, how is it that you get yourself hurt in this situation? 'Cause, like, I remember reading the sections on, you know, vocal expression and we'll get to that. And I remember thinking to myself, "Yeah, my family has one volume: it's loud."

Okay. So in the other house, when you're in the middle how is it that you get yourself hurt in this situation? Cause like I remember reading the sections on, you know, vocal expression and we'll get to that. And I remember thinking to myself, "Yeah, my family has one volume. It's loud."

Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. So actually, it's let's talk about vocal power for a second, 'cause I just love it. And I think that I have a younger sister who has a very unique vocal power. So I think about this a lot in terms of my family. So when the research looks at vocal power, we know that authoritative people use it. It does two things. One is a cue to your vocal, their vocal power by speaking in their lowest natural register.

So right now, I'm working really hard with you to speak in my lowest register when I'm talking to my husband or my daughter. I'm a little higher up here, and this is still natural. But if I were to get my entire interview like this, it would drive you crazy. Right? So I'm down here with you, 'cause when confident people are relaxed, they take up space in their body and they speak in their lower register, without as much volume. So this is why a lot of the time in a big group of people, the lower you go, the more you'll be heard. That baritone is actually heard better. Women often make the mistake of going shrill, and that's 'cause they'll go up really

Srini: Vocal power.

I want to come back to this. This is particularly fascinating for me as somebody who hosts a podcast. But let's come back to this. What I'm curious about is why this was the natural segue to the previous book and you know, what prompted you to write this book as the next one. And I'm always fascinated by the research that you're doing for this because it just seems extensive.

Yes. So actually, it's let's talk about vocal power for a second, 'cause I just love it. And I think that I have a younger sister who has a very unique vocal power. So I think about this a lot in terms of my family. So when the research looks at vocal power, we know that authoritative people use it. It does two things. One is a cue to your vocal, their vocal power by speaking in their lowest natural register.

So right now, I'm working really hard with you to speak in my lowest register when I'm talking to my husband or my daughter, a little higher up here, and this is still natural. But if I were to get my entire interview like this, it would drive you crazy. Right? So I'm down here with you because when we take up space in our body when confident people are relaxed, we're in our lowest register, lower registers without as much volume.

So this is why a lot of the time in a big group of lots of siblings, actually, the lower you go, the more you'll be heard. That baritone is actually heard better. Women often make the mistake of going shrill and that's because they'll go up really

Vanessa Van Edwards: Oh, I'm really into big data. And the reason for that is that we use a lot of peer-reviewed journals in the books and in my work, which I love. But a lot of the time those are small datasets and also their peer review. They use the Institutional Review Board. They're very, very official. If I'm going to do my own research, the one thing I can do if I don't have the IRB, if I'm not peer-reviewed is to use a lot of data. A lot of the most data we can possibly find. That's one of the reasons why I try to use big data. It's one of the few perks we have of being independent. And then the first question you asked you know, it's just personally totally transparently after I wrote Captivate, I was like, I have nothing else to say. It's like I said, it all, that was it. There's nothing left. It took everything out of me. I felt like I had shared every story in the depths of my mind and my body. And then two years later, Captivate really well-upon launch. And then it was like, you know, slowly simmering

I want to come back to this. This is particularly fascinating for me, as somebody who hosts a podcast. But let's come back to this. What I'm curious about is why this was the natural segue to the previous book, and you know, what prompted you to write this book as the next one? And I'm always fascinated by the research that you're doing for this because it just seems extensive.

Srini: Okay. Well, the one thing you say at the very beginning of the book is that the number one way to improve your interactions is to send clear cues based on your goals when you need more credibility or to be taken seriously in negotiations, pitches, and important interviews, dial-up competence. Additionally, if there was someone who appreciates highly intelligent, capable, efficient people use more competence cues. Now we talked briefly about competence and warmth, and, you know, I know you broke this down into a combination, like you said, verbal, vocal, nonverbal, and imagery cues. So let's start by talking specifically about verbal cues. And when you say verbal cues, are we talking just words in general?

Oh, I'm really into big data. And the reason for that is that we use a lot of peer-reviewed journals in the books and in my work, which I love. But a lot of the time those are small datasets and also their peer review. They use the institutional review board. They're very, very official. If I'm going to do my own research, the one thing I can do if I don't have the IRB, if I'm not peer-reviewed is to use a lot of data. A lot of the most data we can possibly find. That's one of the reasons why I try to use big data. It's one of the few perks we have of being independent. And then the first question you asked you know, it's just personally, totally transparently after I wrote captivate, I was like, I have nothing else to say.

It's like I said, it all, that was it. It took everything out of me. I felt like I had shared every story in the depths of my mind and my body. And then two years later, captivate really well upon launch. And then it was like, you know, slowly simmering. And then it kind of took off again. There

Vanessa Van Edwards: Just words. So this, so yes. So verbal cues are just the types of words that we use, that I would also lump in emojis. I know that's a weird one, but emojis and verbal cues are one and the same. Cause we tend to use them in our texts or emails.

Okay. Well, the one thing you say at the very beginning of the book is that the number one way to improve your interactions is to send clear cues based on your goals. When you need more credibility or to be taken seriously in negotiations, pitches, and important interviews, dial-up competence. Additionally, if there is someone who appreciates highly intelligent, capable, efficient people, use more competence cues. Now, we talked briefly about competence and warmth, and, you know, I know you broke this down into a combination, like you said, verbal, vocal, nonverbal, and imagery cues. So, let's start by talking specifically about verbal cues. And when you say verbal cues, are we talking just words in general?

So verbal cues are just the types of words that we use, that I would also lump in emojis. I know that's a weird one, but emojis and verbal cues are one and the same. Cause we tend to use them in our texts or emails.

Srini: Yes. No. Okay. So, you know, in the interest of, you know, my own self-interest I'm going to ask you how can I use verbal cues more effectively when I'm sending messages on an online dating app.

Yes, No, Okay. So, you know, in the interest of, you know, my own self-interest I'm going to ask you how I can use verbal cues more effectively when I'm sending messages on an online dating app.

Vanessa Van Edwards: Love it, love it. Okay. First, the first thing is you want to use words that trigger or create the correct neural maps. We'll get real science on this because this is, I think how we have to think about it. So a neural map is a cluster of words or ideas around a certain concept. So for example, if in a dating app, you had a picture of yourself skiing. Okay. And then you sent a message to a lady friend that said, "How are you?"

Just "Howdy" — let's start with that. Howdy. Howdy. I'm a Texan. All right. Howdy is a really interesting word and it triggers all kinds of neural maps — maybe south, maybe Texas, maybe cowboy, maybe adventure. That's on the positive side, but also great negative cues. Like maybe you hate the south. Maybe you feel like that's a really old-school term. Maybe you think that's really nerdy and cheesy. Those are two distinct neural maps. I want you to use words that trigger neural maps of your ideal partner. So if you want to attract a woman who is turned on by "howdy," I want you to use it

Okay. It's funny you say that because, like, I will often, you know, on dating apps, get these messages, like literally one where it's like, "Hey Mike, what do you expect me to do with that?"

Srini: Okay. It's funny you say that because, like, I will often, you know, on dating apps, get these messages, like literally one where it's like, "Hey Mike, what do you expect me to do with that?"

Love it, love it. Okay. First thing is, do you want to use words that trigger or create the correct neural maps? We'll get real science on this because this is, I think how we have to think about it. So a neural map is a cluster of words or ideas around a certain concept. So for example, if in a dating app, you had a picture of yourself skiing. Okay. And then you sent a message to a lady friend that said, "How are you?"

Just to start with that. "Howdy." Howdy. I'm a Texan. All right. Howdy is a really interesting word and it triggers all kinds of neural maps, maybe south, maybe Texas, maybe cowboy, maybe adventure. That's on the positive side, but also great negative cues. Like maybe you hate the south. Maybe you feel like that's a really old-school term. Maybe you think that's really nerdy and cheesy. Those are two distinct neural maps.

I want you to use words that trigger neural maps of your ideal partner. So if you want to attract a woman who is turned on by "howdy," I want you to use "howdy." However, if you want

Vanessa Van Edwards: Horrible, right? It's like, that's like saying it's I that's a conversational dead-end, but it's like, you're throwing something in the conversation, but like, it doesn't do anything. It doesn't help us. Now you have the choice depending on if you're attracted to them or not. You like their profile. If you're going to take up the conversation.

Low. So I think that there are two different types of conversationalists. There are conversational drivers and there are conversational passengers. I do not think there's an in-between, by the way, conversational drivers are typically the ones who carry the load. Do you know what I'm saying? Like they, they are, they're the ones willing to ask the harder, interesting questions. They're the ones who come up with clever answers. They're the ones who bridge topics. They're the ones who will, you know, rekindle after a couple of hours of being quiet. You have to decide if you're willing to be a conversational driver. And if you are, great, you take that, hey, and then you pick up the conversational load and you're like

Right? It's like, that's like saying it's I that's a conversational bonanza, but it's like, you're throwing something in the conversation, but like, it doesn't do anything. It doesn't help us. Now you have the choice depending on if you're attracted to them or not. You like their profile. If you're going to take up the conversation. Low. So I think that there are two different types of conversationalists. There are conversational drivers. There are conversational passengers. I do not think there's an in-between, by the way, conversational drivers are typically the ones who carry the load. Do you know what I'm saying? Like they, they they're, they're the ones willing to ask the harder, interesting questions. They're the ones who come up with clever answers. They're the ones who bridge topics. They're the ones who will, you know, rekindle after a couple of hours of being quiet. You have to decide if you're willing to be a conversational driver. And if you are great, you take that, Hey, and then you pick up the conversational load and you're like, oh yeah, Hey

Yeah, let's talk about two things really quickly: decoding and encoding. You say decoding is how we read and interpret social signals from others. Social signals help us decipher everything about a person: their intentions toward us, their trustworthiness, their competence, and even their personality. Encoding is how we send social cues. We send some cues purposefully: We stand with good posture to show confidence, or we smile to show friendliness.

And I want to talk to you about this in a maybe bizarre context, and maybe you're familiar with it or not. So there are two shows recently on Netflix. One is called “The Tinder Swindler” and the other is called “Inventing Anna.” They're both about people who deceived hundreds of people into believing things about them that were completely untrue.

Vanessa Van Edwards: Wow, I haven't seen either of them, but I'm excited to watch them tell me what the concept is.

Srini: Yeah, let's talk about two things really quick: decoding and encoding. You say decoding is how we read and interpret social signals from others. Social signals help us decipher everything about a person: their intentions toward us, their trustworthiness, their competence, and even their personality. Encoding is how we send social cues. We send some cues purposefully, such as standing with good posture to show confidence or smiling to show friendliness.

And I want to talk to you about this in a, maybe a bizarre context and maybe you're familiar with it or not. So there are two shows recently on Netflix: one is called 'The Tinder Swindler', and the other is called 'Inventing Anna'. And they're both about people who deceived hundreds of people into believing things about them that were completely untrue.

Wow. I haven't seen either of them, but I'm excited to watch them tell me what the concept is.

So inventing Anna is literally the story of some girl in New York who convinced the entire social elite of New York, that she was some German heiress. She got them to basically give her thousands of dollars of spending money. That was theirs, you know, allowed them to, you know, use allowed people. Basically, people allowed her to use their credit cards to stay in five-star hotels and spend boatloads of money. And then the Tinder swindler is a similar story about a guy who basically pretended to be, you know, some sort of a billionaire's kid and swindled one woman after another, where he would get one woman to give him a credit card. And then he would use that credit card to go and court, some other ones. Oh, it was madness, but I just, I knew that I wanted to talk to you about it because I thought to myself, I'm like, okay, this would be an interesting Vanessa Van Edwards conversation.

Srini: So inventing Anna is literally the story of some girl in New York who convinced the entire social elite of New York that she was some German heiress. She got them to basically give her thousands of dollars in spending money. That was theirs, you know, and allowed them to, you know, use allowed people. Basically, people allowed her to use their credit cards to stay in five-star hotels and spend boatloads of money. And then the Tinder swindler is a similar story about a guy who basically pretended to be, you know, some sort of a billionaire's kid and swindled one woman after another, where he would get one woman to give him a credit card and then he would use that credit card to go and court some other ones. Oh, it was madness, but I just, I knew that I wanted to talk to you about it because I thought to myself, I'm like, okay, this would be an interesting Vanessa Van Edwards conversation.

Srini: Okay. So in that case, how do we create a sense of reliability and trust when we're interacting with other people? You know, since, you know, we're talking about dating and, you know, everybody jokes that every guest on the show is a reflection of whatever problem I'm trying to solve in my life, we're going to continue with that as our primary framework. So let's say I'm on a date and I want to quickly communicate that I, you know, I'm somebody that this person can trust and that they can rely on.

Vanessa Van Edwards: You know, it's so interesting because this is my secret fear with this book. And I really struggle with this. My biggest worry is cues are very powerful and I'm assuming that readers are using them with good intentions, but they can also use them with bad intentions. That is my biggest fear. I think that charmers and communicators, know this invisible language, they speak it very fluently and they can turn it on and off. It's about as if my biggest fear is, I bet you and I can't wait to go watch that this Anna was able to dial up her warmth and her competence.

So people were like, "Oh, and there are the two questions we ask about people." So you talked about decoding and encoding, which is exactly right. When we're with people, we are quickly trying to assess all the cues being sent to answer two questions as quickly as possible. The first question we ask about a person is, "Can I trust you? Are you a threat? Are you on my team?" The second question we ask about a person is, "Can I rely on you? Are you smart? Are you going to give me good information?" And we're trying to answer those incredibly

You know, it's so interesting because this is my secret fear with this book. And I really struggle with this. My biggest worry is cues are very powerful and I am assuming that readers are using them with good intentions, but they can use them with bad intentions. And, like, that is my biggest worry. I think that charmers and communicators, know this invisible language, they speak it very fluently and they can turn it on and they want to. It's almost as if my biggest fear is I bet you and I can't wait to go watch that Anna was able to dial up her warmth and her competence.

So people were like, oh, and there are the two questions we ask about people. So you talked about decoding and encoding, which is exactly right. When we're with people, we are quickly trying to decipher all the cues being sent to answer two questions as quickly as possible. The first question we ask about a person is, can I trust you? Are you a threat? Are you on my team? The second question we ask about a person is, can I rely on you? Are you smart? Are you going to give me good information? And we're trying to answer those incredibly quickly. And once

Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay. So assuming good intentions. And by the way, this works on a date, on a video call, or in a meeting—works, actually the rules are pretty much the same based on professional, romantic, or social situations. So the very first thing is odd, I'm going to save the weirdest thing on this podcast, which is our palms. So a lot of the time, if we think about a date being attractive, getting our hair to look good, and making our outfit look right, that's all great. But actually, the sexiest part of your body when it comes to those two questions is your palms.

And the reason for this, if you think about this from an evolutionary perspective, okay, is when we can see someone's palms, we know they're not hiding anything from us. We know that they're not withholding. If you make a fist, right? A fist is anger, it's tension, it's clenching. A palm is literally the opposite of that.

So you want to show your palm within the first 10 seconds. It's literally like saying you can see my hand. I'm showing you my hand. So on a video call, the very first

Srini: Yeah. Well, let's talk about touching space in particular because I know you say there are four areas around our body where we like to interact with different categories of people, the intimacy zone, the personal zone, the social zone, and the public zone and touch is one of those things that, you know, particularly in the #MeToo era that I think most people are paranoid about. Like, I remember when we had Nick notice here he said he had a lot of clients who were just absolutely terrified to try to kiss a date because they were scared they would be accused of something. And he said, you know, he said, there's a problem with that is he said, if you don't initiate things, they're not going to happen. He said like, we can take this way too far. And so, yeah, I'm curious about how you deal with it.

Okay. So assuming good intentions. And by the way, this works on a date, on a video call, or in a meeting, and works actually the same, based on professional, romantic, or social situations. So the very first thing is odd, I'm going to save the weirdest thing on this podcast, which is our palms. So a lot of the time, if we think about a date being attractive, getting our hair to look good, and making our outfit look right, that's all great. But actually, the sexiest part of your body when it comes to those two questions is your palms.

And the reason for this, if you think about this from an evolutionary perspective, okay, is when we can see someone's palms, we know they're not hiding anything from us. We know that they're not withholding. If you make a fist, right? A fist is anger, it's tension, it's clenching. A palm is literally the opposite of that.

So you want to show your palm within the first 10 seconds. It's literally like saying you can see my hand. I'm showing you my hand. So on a video call, the very first thing I do is, Hey, good morning. I

Okay. So, in that case, how do we create a sense of reliability and trust when we're interacting with other people? You know, since, you know, we're talking about dating and, you know, everybody jokes that every guest on the show is a reflection of whatever problem I'm trying to solve in my life, we'll continue with that as our primary framework. So let's say I'm on a date and I want to quickly communicate that I'm somebody that this person can trust and rely on.

Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. Okay. So it's very important to be aware of people's comfort zones. And you just mentioned a great way to sort of test the waters. So there are these four zones of space. Now across cultures, the ranges are a little bit different, but the four zones are the same. So about 18 inches apart is the intimate zone that is reserved for people who we really are close to. It's like pre-kissing. If you pulled up eight inches from your face, it's really close. That's just reserved for people who we feel really close to. If someone comes into your intimate zone, it's likely that they are feeling quite comfortable with you. The next zone is about 18 inches to about three or four feet apart. Again, these are just approximations. It depends on your culture. That is the personal zone, which is where people like to have one-on-one conversations. We can reach out and touch easily. We can touch an arm or a shoulder. If someone's in that zone, it means that they feel comfortable enough to have some casual touch. Here's the key though, if someone stays in the social zone, the social zone is

Yeah. Well, let's talk about touching space in particular, because I know you said there are four areas around our body where we like to interact with different categories of people, the intimacy zone, the personal zone, the social zone, and the public zone and touch is one of those things that, you know, particularly in the Me Too era that I think most people are paranoid about. Like, I remember when we had Nick notice here he said he had a lot of clients who were just absolutely terrified to try to kiss a date because they were scared they would be accused of something. And he said, you know, he said, there's a problem with that is he said, if you don't initiate things, nothing's going to happen. He said like, we can take this way too far. And so, yeah, I'm curious about how you deal with it.

Yes. Okay. So it's very important to be aware of people's comfort zones. And you just mentioned a great way to sort of test the waters. So there are these four zones of space. Now across cultures, the ranges are a little bit different, but the four zones are the same.

So about 18 inches apart is the intimate zone that is reserved for people who we really are close to. It's like pre-kissing. If you pull up eight inches from your face, it's really close. That's just reserved for people who we feel really close to. If someone comes into your intimate zone, it's likely that they are feeling quite comfortable with you.

The next zone is about 18 inches to about three or four feet apart. Again, these are just approximations. It depends on your culture. That is the personal zone, which is where people like to have one-on-one conversations. We can reach out and touch easily. We can touch an arm or a shoulder.

If someone's in that zone, it means that they feel comfortable enough to have some casual touch. Here's the key though: if someone stays in the social zone, so the social zone is five feet or more apart

Vanessa Van Edwards:

Srini: In front of?

And that way, if someone says, oh no, I'm not a hugger. You can go, oh, no worries. Let's high-five. And you kind of laugh it off or they say, yes, I'm a hugger. And then you hug. Right. So I like to actually say the word, which one triggers oxytocin? Right. So if I say I'm a hugger, I've already triggered oxytocin. And then that gives nice permission. Same thing with like, you know, I really want to kiss you, right? Yeah. Right. Like that's before you even go in, it's a kind of sexy way of asking permission. So I'm very into mentioning the words up and watching their facial responsiveness. Does their eyebrow raise, nod and smile? Do they, or do they purse their lips, turn away and not know? Right? Those are two very different reactions.

Vanessa Van Edwards: And that way, if someone says, oh no, I'm not a hugger. You can go, oh, no worries. Let's high-five. And you kind of laugh it off or they say, yes, I'm a hugger. And then you hug. Right. So I like to actually say the word, which one triggers oxytocin? Right. So if I say I'm a hugger, I've already triggered oxytocin. And then it gives nice permission. Same thing with like, you know, I really want to kiss you, right? Yeah. Right. Like that's before you even go in, it's a kind of sexy way of asking permission. So I'm very into mentioning the words and watching their facial responsiveness. Do their eyebrows raise, nod and smile? Do they, or do they purse their lips, turn away and not know? Right? Those are two very different reactions.

Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. Yes. Okay. So that's interesting because you have two choices to initiate intimacy, and this is why I kind of like Hughes you can be flexible with them. Right. They're sort of like recipes, right? So if you like something a little sweeter, you can add a little more work. Do you like something a little bit saltier? Well, overconfidence, is the same thing with space. So you can create intimacy by being in someone's intimate zone side by side, right? Benches sitting next to each other that is creating intimacy simply by being eight inches apart. And you're making that safe by not being face-to-face. Or you can create intimacy by being by aligning your toes, your torso, and your head. So fronting. So you can create great intimacy at a small cocktail table facing each other that fronting open her open body, moving everything aside. That's one way of creating intimacy, or you can create intimacy by going right into their intimate zone. But side by side, both of those are lovely options. You should pick what you're most comfortable with.

Srini: No, let's talk about physical space because one of the things you say is that when you're in one-on-one interactions where you need to build rapport and make a show for moving all barriers between you and others, clear the table in a client meeting, push aside a computer in a brainstorm session, move your clipboard to the side. When talking to people, scoot your coffee over on a date, open body, open heart, open mind. And it's funny because this is one thing that I was very intentional about. After a certain point, when I would go on dates in San Diego, I found a hotel bar and the reason I would choose that place was specifically that you couldn't sit at a table. You had to sit on benches next to it. Oh, yeah. Let's just say that my dates went pretty well. [00:32:50]

Yes. Yes. Okay. So that's interesting because you have two choices to initiate intimacy, and this is why I kind of like Hughes you can be flexible with them. Right. They're sort of like recipes, right? So if you like something a little sweeter, you can add a little more sugar. If you like something a little bit saltier, you can add a little more confidence. The same thing with space. So you can create intimacy by being in someone's intimate zone side by side, right? Benches sitting next to each other that is creating intimacy simply by being eight inches apart. And you're making that safe by not being face-to-face. Or you can create intimacy by fronting, by aligning your toes, your torso, and your head. So fronting. So you can create great intimacy at a small cocktail table facing each other that fronting open body, moving everything aside. That's one way of creating intimacy, or you can create intimacy by going right into their intimate zone. But side by side, both of those are lovely options. You should pick what you're most comfortable with.

Srini: I had to ask you about the John Stockton story because I'm a die-hard NBA 2K basketball player. Like I don't watch actual basketball, but you know, that story has struck me as fascinating because you say Stockton non-verbally telegraphed to other players where the ball would be before he ever passed without realizing it, you might be doing the same.

And I was thinking about you know, the idea of telegraphing your passes, because if you know, somebody on the opposing team can see that you're telegraphing your passes, you're going to get the ball stolen. I know that it's because I play this video game religiously every day.

No, let's talk about physical space because one of the things you say is that when you're in one-on-one interactions where you need to build rapport and make a show for moving all barriers between you and others, clear the table in a client meeting, push aside a computer in a brainstorm session, move your clipboard to the side. When talking to people, scoot your coffee over on a date, open body, open heart, open mind. And it's funny because this is one thing that I was very intentional about. After a certain point, when I would go on dates in San Diego, I found a hotel bar and the reason I would choose that place was specifically that you couldn't sit at a table. You had to sit on benches next to it. Oh, yeah. Let's just say that my dates went pretty well. 

Vanessa Van Edwards: A hundred percent, a hundred percent. So I'm fascinated by Stockton. I've been studying him for many years because he holds the highest record. And so, like, I put the numbers up and it's insane how many assists he's had. And so I ended up watching many, many of his plays, and he's actually quoted as saying that he and his other teammates, they know each other's non-verbal moves so quickly and effectively that that's how he's able to have all these assists.

So you're absolutely right. Other team members are trying to watch for these cues, but they're not going to be nearly as adept at noticing it for another team's player. Right. They just don't play as much. This is the benefit, by the way, of learning cues and syncing up your cues with your partners, your colleagues, your kids, and your best friends.

I think the reason why really good-wing women, or women in general, are so good is that they're telegraphing all these cues that no one else would even pick up on. So Stockton would often angle very, very quickly and like, you know, millisecond, he'd shift his shoulders

I had to ask you about the John Stockton story because I'm a die-hard NBA 2K basketball player. Like I don't watch actual basketball, but you know, that story has struck me as fascinating because you say Stockton non-verbally telegraphed to other players where the ball would be before he ever passed it, without realizing it, you might be doing the same. And I was thinking about you know, the idea of telegraphing your passes, because if you know, somebody on the opposing team can see that you're telegraphing your passes, you're going to get the ball stolen. I know that it's because I play this video game religiously every day.

Srini: Yeah, let's talk about two other things here. Posture, and then you know, what your eyes reveal because when I saw that sexiest man in the world thing, I was like, okay, Vanessa, I need you to find me a photographer who's going to literally redo my online dating photos based on this. So let's start with posture first. You said powerful posture isn't just important for your perceived confidence, it's important for your actual confidence. Here's a simple rule: the more powerful you feel, the more space you take up, and the more powerful you look. So let's just, you know, for example, talk about going out to dinner at a restaurant or a bar, and we want to, you know, demonstrate power just from the way that we're carrying ourselves.

Yeah, let's talk about two other things here. Posture, and then you know, what your eyes reveal because when I saw that “sexiest man in the world” thing, I was like, “Okay, Vanessa, I need you to find me a photographer who's going to literally redo my online dating photos based on this.” So let's start with posture first. You said powerful posture isn't just important for your perceived confidence. It's important for your actual confidence. Here's a simple rule: the more powerful you feel, the more space you take up, and the more powerful you look.

So let's just, you know, for example, talk about going out to dinner at a restaurant or a bar, and we want to, you know, demonstrate power just from the way that we're carrying ourselves.

I'm fascinated by Stockton. I've been following him for many years because he holds the highest rank. And so by a lot, I think I put the numbers up, it's insane how many assists he's had. And so I ended up watching many, many plays and it's, he actually is quoted as saying that he, with his other players, other teammates, they know each other's non-verbal moves, they can telegraph to each other so quickly and so effectively, that that's how he's able to have all these assists. So you're absolutely right. Other team members are trying to watch for these, but they're not going to be nearly as adept at noticing another team's player. Right. They just don't play as much. This is the benefit, by the way, of learning cues and syncing up your cues with your partners, your colleagues, your kids, and your best friends.

I think the best wingmen and women are so good because you're telegraphing all these cues that no one else would even pick up on. So Stockton would often front, he would angle very, very quickly and like, you know, in a millisecond, he would shift his shoulders just so

Srini: Let's talk about the eyes because you say that when we widen our eyes, usually when experiencing emotions like fear and surprise, it allows us to take in more. If we're afraid, we want to take in as much of our surroundings as possible to assess potential threats.

And then when we narrow our eyes, it blocks out light. So we can see greater detail in some social situations. Someone might furrow their lower lid while trying to get to know you and understand you better. It's as if they're saying, "I want to really see you." And you actually alluded to the photos of the sexiest man alive.

And I remember thinking to myself, "Oh, okay, cool. I need to find a photographer and basically say, 'Make me look like this.'"

Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. Okay. So I want to give you the weirdest measurement ever, but this is all you really have to think about. That comes to posture. I think that people when they think about like sitting up straight or like what their mothers told them, you know that's sort of helpful sitting up straight, but you could end up puffing out your chest, which doesn't look that great. Or you feel like you're like a pupil in a classroom that also doesn't look that great. It looks very rigid. There's only one thing I want you to keep in mind when it comes to posture, which is the distance between your ear lobe and your shoulder - weird assistance, I know, but that is actually, especially on video calls. It's also true in profile photos. This is when you're alone. When your shoulder is shorter, that is the more defeated, ashamed, embarrassed, or low power you look. And that is because you can try this. If you shrink your head down and roll your shoulders up and I'm doing it right now, you can actually hear, I have less vocal power. As you can hear, I become a little more nasally.

Yes. Okay. So I want to give you the weirdest measurement ever, but this is all you really have to think about. That comes to foster. I think that people when they think about like sitting up straight or like what their mothers told them, you know that's sort of helpful sitting up straight, but you could end up puffing out your chest, which doesn't look that great. Or you feel like you're like a pupil in a classroom that also doesn't look that great. It looks very rigid. There's only one thing I want you to keep up with. I want you to think about when it comes to posture, which is the distance between your ear lobe and your shoulder — weird assistance. I know, but that is actually, especially on video calls. It's also important in profile photos. This is when you're alone. When your shoulders are shorter, that is the more defeated, ashamed, embarrassed, or low power you look. And that is because you can try this. If you shrink your head down and roll your shoulders up and I'm doing it right now, you can actually hear, I have less vocal power. As you can hear, I become a little more nasally.

Let's talk about the eyes because you say that when we widen our eyes, usually when experiencing emotions like fear and surprise, it allows us to take in more. If we're afraid, we want to take in as much of our surroundings as possible to assess potential threats.

And then when we narrow our eyes, it blocks out light. So we can see greater detail in some social situations. Someone might furrow their lower lid while trying to get to know you and understand you better. It's as if they're saying, I want to really see you and you actually allude to the photos of the "Sexiest Man Alive".

And I'm just thinking to myself, I remember thinking to myself literally, "Oh, okay, cool. I need to find a photographer and basically say, 'Make me look like this.'" You do?

Don't change any of the speaker names or add other speakers you do. You do so funny, funny pop culture story here is Zoolander. If you've seen the classic movie. Yes. Okay. Ben Stiller does a Blue Steel, right? And Blue Steel is basically him. He pouts his lips and hardens his lower lids. You can try and pout your lips and harden your lower lip for Blue Steel. Okay. Key and Will Ferrell. The reason they picked this is that they made fun of Pierce Brosnan, who on the red carpet, in every single picture, you look up his pictures on the red carpet, every single picture he is doing that he's kind of pouting his lower lips and he's hardening his lower lids. Every single picture of Pierce is piercing eyes. Like literally it's a pose. So they were actually making fun of Pierce Brosnan with that. But that's, that was the inspiration. And when I saw this, I thought, wow. And then I looked down and the name of the 50th sexiest man alive on almost every picture that men have.

Across races when we harden our lower lids, less light comes in

Srini: Yeah. So what do I tell a photographer to get me to, yeah? So when you say, you know, harden, your lower lids, describe it to me.

Vanessa Van Edwards: You do? You do? So, a funny pop culture story here is Zoolander. If you've seen the classic movie? Yes. Okay. Ben Stiller does a Blue Steel, right? And Blue Steel is basically him pouting his lips and hardening his lower lids. You can try and pout your lips and harden your lower lip for your Blue Steel. Okay. Key and Will Ferrell. The reason they picked this is that they made fun of Pierce Brosnan, who on the red carpet, in every single picture, you look up, he's the red carpet, every single picture he is doing that; he's kind of pouting his lower lips and he's hardening his lower lid. Every single picture of Pierce is piercing eyes; literally, it's a pose. So they were actually making fun of Pierce Brosnan with that. But that's, that was the inspiration. And when I saw this, I thought, wow. And then I looked down and the name of science, the 50th sexiest man alive, and on almost every picture, men have across races when we harden our lower lids, less light comes in, we're able to see more detail. And so if

Yeah. So what do I tell a photographer to get me to, yeah? So when you say, you know, harden your lower lids, describe it to me.

I'm going to have to have you analyze my online dating pictures, as you know, for the sake of, you know, our listeners' research, for them to understand.

Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay. So I want you to try it. When you have a photographer, you should try this yourself first to get your right face. So you want to harden your eyelids. That could be with a smile or not a smile, so you can have a half and lower lid.

If you just, for example, I ask you to look at a far sign across the room to try to read it. Okay. If you just harden your lower lids, just slightly, that's the sort of intense scrutiny. And you can partner that with a small smile. You can partner that with a little eyebrow raise, right? A half-lifted eyebrow, less than I ever raised saying like, “Do you want to talk to me?” Do you want to?

Okay. So I want you to try it. When you have a photographer, you should try this yourself first to get your right face. So you want to harden your eyelids. That could be with a smile or not a smile, so you can have raised and lower lids.

If you just, for example, if you, if I ask you to look at a far sign across the room to try to read. Okay. If you just harden your lower lids, just slightly, that's the sort of intense scrutiny. And you can pair that with a small smile. You can pair that with a little eyebrow raise, right? A little raised and lower lid, less than an eyebrow raised saying like, want to talk to me, do you want to?

I love it. So we should do some before and after. So we should do one neutral one and we should do one with your heart and lower lids. We should do a heart and lower lids. And I've asked her to do a heart and lower lids and smile. And you can see the differences between them. And by the way, this is very subtle. You don't have to act like you're squinting. It's not squinting. Right. It's just a soft, lower lip flex. It's like a, it's like a smolder, right? So I want you to think that you're just intensely looking at that camera. That is a nonverbal cue of scrutiny or deep listening and boy, do people.

Srini: I'm going to have to have you analyze my online dating pictures, as you know, for the sake of, you know, our listeners' research for them to understand.

Srini: Well, yeah, I'd love to A/B test this on a dating profile.

Vanessa Van Edwards: I love it. So we should do some before and after. So we should do one neutral one and we should do one of you raising your eyebrows and lowering your lids. We should do a heart and lower lids and smile. And you can see the differences between them. And by the way, this is very subtle. You don't have to act like you're squinting. It's not squinting. Right. It's just a soft, lower lip flex. It's like a, it's like a smolder, right? So I want you to think that you're just intensely looking at that camera. That is a nonverbal cue of scrutiny or deep listening and boy, do people.

Vanessa Van Edwards: on the cover of my book. I'm doing a half-smile lip flex, right? Like I'm doing it on the cover of my book. So it's not just a dating profile. It's also intense, it's intense, right? It shows intensity. If you don't want to be intense, you shouldn't do it. [00:42:23]

Well, yeah, I'd love to A/B test this on a dating profile.

I'm having a hopeful lower lip flex, right? Like I'm doing it on the cover of my book. So it's not just for dating profiles. It's also intense, it's intense, right? It shows intensity. If you don't want to be intense, you shouldn't do it.

Srini: Okay, cool. Let's talk about voice as naturally as a podcast, or this was something that really was fascinating. When you say how we say our words, our tone, volume, pauses, syntax, and cadence are just as important as what we say. We can tell a lot about a person, their emotional state, their intentions, and their personality from their voice. Understanding vocal cues are incredibly important for uncovering others' feelings toward you, your work, and your projects. And I think this, in particular, struck me a lot because probably one of the nicest things that people have said is you have a voice that's made for radio. It's just pleasant. But I don't know why that happens. Like, I don't know what the explanation for that is. Like, I'm wondering why that is.

Okay, cool. Let's talk about voice as naturally as a podcast, or this was something that really was fascinating. When you say how we say our words, our tone, volume, pauses, syntax, and cadence are just as important as what we say. We can tell a lot about a person, their emotional state, their intentions, and their personality from their voice. Understanding vocal cues are incredibly important for uncovering others' feelings toward you, your work, and your projects.

And I think this, in particular, struck me a lot because, probably one of the nicest things that people have said is, "You have a voice that's made for radio. It's just pleasant." But I don't know why that happens. Like, I don't know what is the explanation for that. Like, I'm wondering why that is.

Vanessa Van Edwards:  I know why it is: it's because when you speak, you speak in the back of your head, which sounds really crazy, but it's true, so I'm working to do it more naturally. If you have someone speaking in front of their head, they tend to speak more like this. So they're a lot more leaning forward and they want to yell at you, they want to tell you what to do. They speak in the front of their head, as opposed to speaking in the back of their head. Do you hear the difference? It's very subtle. You speak deeply in the back of your head. You also have a lot of space and resonance in your voice, that nice low baritone. It's so nice to listen to. I totally agree. You have one of the best podcasts out there.

I know why it is it's because when you speak, you speak in the back of your head, which sounds really crazy, but it's so, I'm working to do it more naturally. If you have someone speaking in front of their head they tend to speak more like this. They're like a lot more leaning forward and they wanna, they want to yell at you. They want to tell you what to do. They speak in front of their head. As opposed to speaking in the back of their head, do you hear the difference? They're very subtle. You speak deeply in the back of your head. You also have a lot of, I think, space and resonance in your voice, so that nice low baritone. It's so nice to listen to. I totally agree. You have one of the best podcasts out there.

Srini: Okay. Well now, now that you've, you know, inflated my ego, let's actually talk about how our listeners can do this for themselves.

Ok. Well, now that you've [inflated] my ego, let's actually talk about how our listeners can do this for themselves.

Srini: Yeah. Let's talk about volume because, as you know, I was telling you, my family, there's just one volume—loud—but you say that true vocal power comes from showing mastery of volume dynamism. Controlling your volume shows you have control of your message. When master communicators want to show excitement, they speak up. When they want to share secrets or insider information, they speak quietly, forcing listeners to lean in and listen. That makes me think about something that I've noticed as a pattern when I've interviewed people. I noticed that a lot of podcasters dread the awkward silence, even if it's like five to 10 seconds. I've noticed that when I say absolutely nothing—which I have actually gotten decent at doing—that is usually when I will get the most profound and beautiful soundbites out of people. Yes.

First, we use art. We manipulate our voice tone with breath and this happens without us even realizing it. So when I run out of breath, I have to work harder to speak, which makes me speak higher up in my tone and also makes me push out my words so that I begin to lose my vocal power. And then I sound more like I'm really, really trying.

And that's a horrible thing to listen to. If I were to give my answers like this, it would sound very, very forced. That is because I was at the end of my breath. The moment I take a deep breath and I maximize that space between my shoulder and my ear lobe. That's the reason why we love to have that.

And I speak on the out-breath. It pushes the air out. It pushes me down lower, and that's a much higher point. So if you are on a call and you hear yourself going up here, I want you to take a deep breath and speak on the out-breath. The mistake that we make is we speak more out of breath. So we start a sentence. Now we have lots of breath and we're talking really well. And then we run out of breath and then we

Vanessa Van Edwards: First, we use art. We manipulate our voice tone with breath and this happens without us even realizing it. So when I run out of breath, I have to work harder to speak, which makes me speak higher up in my tone and also makes me push out my words so that I begin to lose my vocal power. And then I sound more like I'm really, really trying. And that's a horrible thing to listen to. If I were to give my answers like this, it would sound very, very forced. That is because I was at the end of my breath. The moment I take a deep breath and I maximize that space between my shoulder and my ear lobe. That's the reason why we love to have that. And I speak on the out-breath. It pushes the air out. It pushes me down lower, and that's a much deeper point. So if you are on a call and you hear yourself going up here, I want you to take a deep breath and speak on the out-breath. The mistake that we make is we speak more out of breath. So we start a sentence. Now we have lots of breath and we're talking really well. And then we run out

Yes. So that pause, so pausing is, is powerful. So first of all, being masterful with your volume, being purposeful, I would say with your volume is really important. So if you have a presentation or something important to share, you should know where you want to dial-up and speak louder because you are passionate about it. And when you want to share a little insider information, a little background, and you go a little bit quieter, that helps the listener. It actually is like giving them cliff notes for where they should be excited and pay attention, and where they should lean in and sort of hear background information.

So that's actually helpful for the listener. The second thing is that when you allow for pauses when your volume shift or before and after answers, it's also allowing the other person to go a little bit deeper, right? So you can use a breath, a breathing pause of time for you to take a breath, or reset your volume as also a way to ask anything else. Right? Like those pauses are a way to just see, do you have anything else that you want to talk to me about? My mom actually shared this tip with me very early on. And she said to me that a lot of

Yeah. Let's talk about volume because, as you know, I was telling you, my family, there's just one volume: loud. But you say that true vocal power comes from showing mastery of volume dynamism. Controlling your volume shows you have control of your message. When master communicators want to show excitement, they speak up. When they want to share secrets or insider information, they speak quietly, forcing listeners to lean in and listen. That makes me think about something that I've noticed as a pattern when I've interviewed people. I noticed that a lot of podcasters dread the awkward silence, even if it's like five to 10 seconds. I've noticed that when I say absolutely nothing, which I have actually gotten decent at doing, that is usually when I will get the most profound and beautiful soundbites out of people. Yes.

Yeah. So one of the things you say about vocals as emotion is what captures people's attention and hooks them in to want to listen. Words imbued with emotion are more easily remembered. And the funny thing is that people have always asked, what is it that makes you choose a podcast guest? And I always say genuine curiosity, that's it. If I'm curious because I know that if I'm curious, then I'll never be bored. And I pretty much know that if I'm bored interviewing somebody, I will cut the interview in the middle and tell the person to go back and listen to an episode, or just tell them this isn't going the way I need it to, which is not polite at all.

And you know, some people have told me to go to hell. Others have agreed. Yeah, no, I mean, that is literally why I do it. I'm like, if I'm bored listening to this person during the interview, there's no way listeners won't be bored. Yeah.

Srini: Yeah. So one of the things you say about vocals as emotion is what captures people's attention and hooks them in to want to listen. Words imbued with emotion are more easily remembered. And the funny thing is that people have always asked, what is it that makes you choose a podcast guest? And I always say genuine curiosity, that's it. If I'm curious because I know that if I'm curious, then I'll never be bored. And I pretty much know that if I'm bored interviewing somebody, I will cut the interview in the middle and tell the person to go back and listen to an episode, or just tell them this isn't going the way I need it to, which is not polite at all. And you know, some people have told me to go to hell. Others have agreed. Yeah, no, I mean, that is literally why I do it. I'm like, if I'm bored listening to this person during the interview, there's no way listeners won't be bored. Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. So that pause, so pausing is, is powerful. So first of all, being masterful with your volume, being purposeful, I would say with your volume is really important. So if you have a presentation or something important to share, you should know where you want to dial-up and speak louder because you are passionate about it. And when you want to share a little insider information, a little background, and you go a little bit quieter, that's what helps the listener. It actually is like giving them cliff notes for where they should be excited and pay attention and where they should lean in and sort of hear background information.

So that's actually helpful for the listener. The second thing is that when you allow for pauses when your volume shift or before and after answers, it's also allowing the other person to go a little bit deeper, right? So you can use a breath, a breathing pause of time for you to take a breath, or reset your volume as also a way to ask anything else. Right? Like those pauses are a way to just see, do you have anything else that you want to talk to me about?

My mom actually shared this tip with me very early

Vanessa Van Edwards: It's so true. So true. So, yes, go ahead. Yes, I totally agree.

It's so true. So true. So, yes, go ahead. Yes, I totally

Srini: Yeah, I mean, so, you know, but the thing is, I think that people try to fake this too sometimes, you know like I don't even think you can fake emotion.

Vanessa Van Edwards: You know, you can fake it till you make it to a certain extent. I've never believed the saying “fake it till you make it”. I think that a lot of the time you can leak boredom, right? It's really, really hard to conceal our emotions. So I agree with you. It's really, really hard to conceal or to change our emotions, especially boredom, apathy, anger, or fear. It's really, really hard to hide those emotions. And so there are emotions that are a little bit easier to hide. Like sometimes we can hide our shame if we're embarrassed, but you don't always know that. Sometimes we can hide our discomfort. That's one that we can sometimes hide. You don't always know if someone's uncomfortable socially, but if you're, it's very, very hard to feign interest, you can do it, but it is exhausting. Right? And so you, you have the ability to cut it off, cut it off like this, too short.

Yeah. I mean, so, you know, but the thing is, I think that people try to fake this too sometimes, you know? Like, I don't even think you can fake emotion.

Well, it's funny you say that because it just reminded me of a story. I remember going on a date with this girl in San Diego who channeled dead people. And I'm thinking to myself, well, I like talking to people who are alive and 45 minutes into the date, she looks at me and she's like, "I'm not really feeling this. I'm going to go and I'll pay for my own drinks." And I looked at her and I was like, "Thank you. Why don't people do that more often? Like, why are we sitting here when clearly, both of us are bored just to be polite?"

Vanessa Van Edwards: Amazing, by the way. I do think that the world is going more towards that. I think that we are learning social assertiveness in a way that we can all swallow. I also think we've realized like life is too short and our social interactions need to be precious. And so I think that we're going to start seeing more behavior like that, where if there's a bad date or people aren't clicking or there are toxic friends or friends out of habit, you know, I lost all my friends by habit.

I used to have friends that I just sort of saw because we always saw each other and we were old friends and why not? We invite each other to birthday parties, we'll have a pandemic that stopped that. And so I think that we're getting to the point where we're not gonna have any more accidental friends. We're not gonna have any more relationships out of habit. We're going to begin to choose them and that's going to empower us to be more assertive. And I'm excited about that. Like, let's start that with this podcast. Let's start more social assertiveness in this, please.

You know, you can fake it till you make it to a certain extent. I've not always believed that in the beginning to make it. I think that a lot of the time you can leak boredom right? It's really, really hard to conceal our emotions. So I agree with you. It's really, really hard to conceal or to change our emotions, especially anger, apathy, or fear. It's really, really hard to hide those emotions. And so there are emotions that are a little bit easier to hide. Like sometimes we can hide our shame if we're embarrassed, but you don't always know that. Sometimes we can hide our discomfort. That's one that we can sometimes hide. You don't always know if someone's uncomfortable socially, but if you're, it's very, very hard to feign interest, you can do it, but it is exhausting. Right? And so you, you have the ability to cut it off, cut it off like this to short.

Srini: Let's talk now about imagery. I mean, obviously as somebody who runs a creative brand that uses a ton of imagery I'm really fascinated by, you know, what we're communicating with our imagery. Cause I know you go into detail about color. Explain to me, you know, particularly in the context of like a website or something. Yeah. Yeah, how do we communicate what we want to communicate?

Srini: Well, it's funny you say that because it just reminded me of a story. I remember going on a date with this girl in San Diego who channeled dead people. And I'm thinking to myself, well, I like talking to people who are alive and 45 minutes into the date, she looks at me and she's like, "I'm not really feeling this. I'm going to go and I'll pay for my own drinks." And I looked at her and I was like, "Thank you. Why don't people do that more often? Like, why are we sitting here when clearly, we both know we're bored, just being polite?"

Amazing, by the way. I do think that the world is going more towards that. I think that we are learning social assertiveness in a way that we can all swallow. I also think we've realized like life is too short and our social interactions need to be precious. And so I think that we're going to start seeing more behavior like that, where if there's a bad date or people aren't clicking or like toxic friends or friends out of habit, you know, I lost all my friends by habit.

I used to have friends that I just sort of saw because we always saw each other and we were old friends and why not? We invited each other to birthday parties, we'll have a pandemic that stopped. And so I think that we're getting to the point where we're not gonna have any more accidental friends. We're not gonna have any more relationships out of habit.

We're going to begin to choose them and that's going to empower us to be more assertive. And I'm excited about that. Like, let us start that with this podcast. Let's start more social assertiveness in this, please.

Let's talk now about imagery. I mean, obviously, as somebody who runs a creative brand that uses a ton of imagery, I'm really fascinated by, you know, what we're communicating with our imagery. Cause I know you go into detail about color. Explain to me, you know, particularly in the context of, like, a website or something. Yeah. Yeah, how do we communicate what we want to communicate?

Yes. So imagery was a really fun chapter and it's actually one of the longest chapters in the book, and that's because there are so many cues that we send with images. We talked about the very beginning of our neural maps, right? So images are one of the most powerful ways to trigger neural maps. And so on our marketing materials, on our website, in our profiles, we have to be very, very purposeful about the kind of images that we're using, and that can include color. Now, I really struggled with the color in the book because color psychology is very, very, mostly pseudoscience.

It's very, very hard to reliably study color associations because everyone has different color associations, and different cultures have different color associations. That is actually how I teach it, which is we need to know, or you need to know what your color associations are and what the color associations might be for your ideal person.

And that's what you should try to trigger. So for example, for Science of People, I knew that we wanted to be very, very science-y on the side of people. And so I wanted to trigger neural maps of professionalism, and even like newspapers. So our main brand colors are black and

Srini: Right, people? It's funny you say that 'cause red is like an integral part of our brand colors. My friends always tease me when I got a pair of custom shoes. Is everything in your life an advertisement for Unmistakable, like much there's like those shoes are literally like the color of your website? It was like, "Yep. He's like, 'You did that on purpose, didn't you?' I was like, 'Yes.'"

Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. So imagery was a really fun chapter, and it's actually one of the longest chapters in the book because there are so many cues that we send with images. We talked about the very beginning of our neural maps, right? So images are one of the most powerful ways to trigger neural maps. And so on our marketing materials, on our website, in our profiles, we have to be very, very purposeful with the kind of images that we're using, and that can include color. Now, I really struggled with the color in the book because color psychology is very, very mostly pseudoscience. It's very, very hard to reliably study color associations because everyone has different color associations, and different cultures have different color associations. That is actually how I teach it, which is we need to know, or you need to know what your color associations are and what the color associations might be for your ideal person. And that's what you should try to trigger. So for example, for Science of People, I knew that we want, we're very, science on the side of people. And so I wanted to trigger neural maps of professionalism, or even like a newspaper. So our main brand colors

Right people? It's funny you say that. 'Cause red is an integral part of our brand colors. My friends always tease me when I got a pair of custom shoes. Is everything in your life or advertisement for Unmistakable, much there's like those shoes are literally like the color of your website. It was like, yep. He's like, "You did that on purpose, didn't you?" I was like, "Yes."

Srini: Would call that an "empire state of mind." There

We have to constantly be talking about our business. Jay Z

Vanessa Van Edwards: You go. There you go. Boom. That

Vanessa Van Edwards: We have to constantly be talking about our business. Jay Z

Would call that an empire state of mind. There

Srini: Red in particular, though, is a color that fascinates me. And I'm curious about this. Like, I feel like to me there's one thing that I think I would find completely irresistible in a room: a woman who walks in wearing a red dress. Like, I can't notice that. What is that about?

Red in particular, though, is a color that fascinates me. And I'm curious about this. Like, I feel like, to me, there's one thing that I think I would find completely irresistible in a room: a woman who walks in, in a red dress. Like, I can't notice that. What is that about?

[00:54:52] Srini: Here you go. Boom. That's it.

Vanessa Van Edwards: That's by the way, that's a woman who puts on a red dress and wants to signal to men who are going to appreciate a red dress, right? They they're signaling in a way, by the way, red dress is not appealing to every man. So one is that's a signal to you, right? That's the kind of attention she wants. And then the actual scientific thinking about this is that red typically means 'beware'. So back in caveman days when we were hunting for ripe strawberries or raspberries or red apples, and of course our other colors of fruit as well, red was typically a sign to either 'approach' or 'stay away'. Red, poisonous, red don't eat it. And so red is just a color of attention, not always positive, sometimes negative, which is why I said red is just loud. And if you want someone who likes that, fantastic. If you want something more demure, use a pastel.

Srini: Well, it's funny because I remember talking to Mars, Dorian who kind of really was the guy behind the visual voice of unmistakable. And he grew up in East Germany before the fall of the Berlin Wall. And when he told me about all this, I said, "Oh my God, everything about the way that you illustrate suddenly makes sense to me; everything you do basically screams with a complete disregard for authority."

Well, it's funny because I remember talking to Mars, Dorian, who kind of really was the guy behind the visual voice of unmistakable. And he grew up in East Germany before the fall of the Berlin Wall. And when he told me about all this, I said, "Oh my God, everything about the way that you illustrate suddenly makes sense to me; everything you do basically screams with a complete disregard for authority."

That's by the way, a woman who puts on a red dress and wants to signal to men who are going to appreciate a red dress, right? They they're signaling in a way, by the way, red dress is not appealing to every man. So one is that's a signal to you, right?

That's the kind of attention she wants. And then the actual scientific thinking about this is that red typically means danger. So back in caveman days when we were hunting for ripe strawberries or red raspberries or red apples, and of course our other colors of fruit as well, red was typically an obvious means of either danger or staying away from this.

Red, poisonous, red don't eat it. And so red is just a color of attention, not always positive, sometimes negative, which is why I said red is just loud. And if you want someone who likes that, fantastic. If you want something more demure, use a pastel.

Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. Yeah. It was a signal. It was a signal to you. Like you could feel it even in the stroke of the way the art was done, this signal, it called out to you. Yeah.

Which is why I liked it so much. And I think that's why he was responsible for so much of what we did.

Yeah. Yeah. It was a signal. It was a signal to you. Like you could feel it even in, in, in the stroke of the way that the art was done, this signal, it calls out to you. Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. And that's, that's very purposeful. I, it drives me crazy when people use stock images that don't, that are just not, sort of like, yeah, sure. I need a picture of people talking. And I have now a team that does my website and I'm always fighting with them. I'm like, this stock image is not on brand. Like we cannot use this image. And so the fight that I have internally with my team is like, we can't use stock images because we're saying we have to stand out. So using a stock image is the exact opposite of what we're saying yet. We do need the picture to visually cue people with the picture. So actually it's funny because internally that's a fight we have constantly, every week we spend a ton of money on, quote-unquote, "unique" stock photography, and our own stock photography because it's a huge issue. So it's just funny that that's also something we think about a lot too. Yeah.